If Torment is Forever.....

[eaglesway]

Yea, and suffering FOREVER would be "torment" AND "torture" ;o)

[micah7:9]

Denomination-doctrine-denomination- doctrine-denomination-doctrine...on and on :mshock:

[eaglesway]

Denomination-doctrine-denomination- doctrine-denomination-doctrine...on and on :mshock:

Yea, but, thank God, not forever :o)

[reFORMer]

Denomination-doctrine-denomination- doctrine-denomination-doctrine...on and on :mshock:

Demonination is the recovered spelling.  Some of the moderators, including myself, have thought my little puns might be too inflammatory.  You know the teaching that the gifts of the Spirit are not for now, not for the Church "parenthesis," but only for the people God really loves:  the racial Jews?  Among other features of that teaching, that is the foremost reason I like to write, "DipSINsationalism" rather than the right spelling.  It's more commonly irritating than "demoninationalism."  Whatever the doctrine, right or wrong, it's NOT the same thing as the person holding it.  I think we're better off with a little laughter.  Sometimes we take this all too seriously.  Scripture says, "In Isaac shall my seed be called."  "Isaac" means "Laugh Causer."  A joke is a "laugh causer."  "Sarah laughed."

[lomarah]

Oh reF I completely agree and I love you and your posts!

[Lazarus Short]

reFORMer, your puns are just like my use of "theoillogical."  Keep it up!  Yuck it up!

[eaglesway]

I am not a dispensationalist, but I can see how someone who is would be offended by being called a "DipSINsationalist", sorry- I must disagree slightly. It is only funny to people who are not of the persuasion being characterized.

[reFORMer]

I think you're right eaglesway.  Even to say they shouldn't be so pompous about their belief, though true, doesn't stop their burning with offense, at least some of them.  The Proverbs says, "The words of the wise are like ox-goads, to find the path of life."  It just seems faded and like root beer that's lost its fizz if I eliminate using colorful adjectives and words like "demoninations," for instance.  Such organizations are not The Church and they're not the gift of "governments," or, "rudders."  They're what scripture calls, "Sects with peculiar opinions."  They're bureaucratic gentile authorities, another kingdom.  Shouldn't we disturb people a little with what we say?  Maybe they'll, "Awake to righteousness and sin not."  Maybe they'll figure out why calling it "demoninationalism" irks them and get up and get out of Babyloon.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :banana: :gimmefive:

[ded2daworld]

IMO, mental or physical - torment forever is torture
If torture, the savior is not a savior for twist it as you will,
the ET people have Jesus the Savior being Jesus the Torturer
because you didn't love him. I'm sorry, that is just sick. :sigh:

[eaglesway]

I think you're right eaglesway.  Even to say they shouldn't be so pompous about their belief, though true, doesn't stop their burning with offense, at least some of them.  The Proverbs says, "The words of the wise are like ox-goads, to find the path of life."  It just seems faded and like root beer that's lost its fizz if I eliminate using colorful adjectives and words like "demoninations," for instance.  Such organizations are not The Church and they're not the gift of "governments," or, "rudders."  They're what scripture calls, "Sects with peculiar opinions."  They're bureaucratic gentile authorities, another kingdom.  Shouldn't we disturb people a little with what we say?  Maybe they'll, "Awake to righteousness and sin not."  Maybe they'll figure out why calling it "demoninationalism" irks them and get up and get out of Babyloon.

Well yea, maybe, but then we might need to redefine the purpose of the board and the nature of our discussions :o) There are a whole of of "awaking ups" needed. Most of them don't get done through offences and sarcasm. I have seen this same pompous burning from about everyone(including myself ) at one time or another. Whether Preterist, or Literalist, or Whateverist, I have smelt the fires of Babylon coming from the chimneys of them all.

[VineBranch]

If Torment is Forever ....

No prayer has ever meant a thing.

[Lazarus Short]

If torment is forever, prayers, masses, penance, memorials, kind words, and all the rest, are for...
...NOTHING.

[eaglesway]

You heretic.  :cloud9:

[misszoolander]

If torment is forever, prayers, masses, penance, memorials, kind words, and all the rest, are for...
...NOTHING.

If torment is forever then 90% of the human race will be for nothing  :faint:

[reFORMer]

I think you're right eaglesway.  Even to say they shouldn't be so pompous about their belief, though true, doesn't stop their burning with offense, at least some of them.  The Proverbs says, "The words of the wise are like ox-goads, to find the path of life."  It just seems faded and like root beer that's lost its fizz if I eliminate using colorful adjectives and words like "demoninations," for instance.  Such organizations are not The Church and they're not the gift of "governments," or, "rudders."  They're what scripture calls, "Sects with peculiar opinions."  They're bureaucratic gentile authorities, another kingdom.  Shouldn't we disturb people a little with what we say?  Maybe they'll, "Awake to righteousness and sin not."  Maybe they'll figure out why calling it "demoninationalism" irks them and get up and get out of Babyloon.

Well yea, maybe, but then we might need to redefine the purpose of the board and the nature of our discussions :o) There are a whole of of "awaking ups" needed. Most of them don't get done through offences and sarcasm. I have seen this same pompous burning from about everyone(including myself ) at one time or another. Whether Preterist, or Literalist, or Whateverist, I have smelt the fires of Babylon coming from the chimneys of them all.

I fail to see how a little hot pepper in the stew overthrows the purpose of tentmaker.  I intend to paint pictures with vibrant colors, though it may come off as pastel and boring.  As touchy an issue as it is to some, I am confidant in my clarity of vision concerning the immorality of our times.  Fornication is common as rain.  Marriage has fallen into disrespect due to the constant propagandizing of the Marquis de Sade's worldview through televised fictions.  It is also my intent to splash some salt in gay wounds to the healing of the body.  It's very similar to recovering from alcoholism, the process of changing one's mind about living a homosexual lifestyle.  I get the impression from some "mis-leaders" of mankind to take a vocal stand against this sin is not supposed to be done in America these days.  This is not a change I can believe in.  People need to know the love of God, not so they can multiply their sexual sins with impunity, but love's power to experience the miracle of His deliverance from the power and penalty of sin.  If I said I was without the knowledge of God or was uncertain of it in this matter, I would be lying.

The convicting power of the Holy Spirit upon those we call to change their minds (to repent) and turn to God may temporarily produce some suffering, some torment.  Are we to protect them from God?  People have undergone great torment, God inflaming their hearts with the question of what they should do to be saved.  If we understand somebody to be wrong, trapped into servitude to the devil, why wouldn't we speak up as God has told us to do, to speak the truth in love, specially here, perhaps the most wonderful and truly Christian website in existence.  I don't know of one better.  But we have to face the fact that the preaching of the gospel with signs following also produced people who sought to kill the preachers of it.  Why were they that set against it?  You just can't get it bland enough to slip it by the censors and it still be the vademacum it is.

Whoever bears testimony to the truth and takes note of those with whom you're dealing along spiritual lines, if you're in fellowship with other believers and you're all willing to clean fish, God will grant you new believers to be responsible for in this time of increase.  Even if you find only yourself for now, an individual before God to serve those newly reborn, be willing to clean fish, as Jesus dealt with those with Him.  This is compatible with what we're doing here.  We're not just going over aspects of Universal Salvation, were sharing a full spectrum gospel, a coat of many colors as it were, to the saving of many souls alive, that they may walk in fellowship with our wonderful savior and others of His children.  Our emphasis here on Universal Salvation is due to the great need for truth contradicting error in the present apostasy.  Just as cleaning a fish, producing a new form, filets, is a messy stinky job, so is helping people along into the image of God.  You can get your hand pricked with their carnal spines, too.  We're offering something up to God for His consumption.  He's a consuming fire.

Mark 9^49-50, CLV...
49 For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
50 Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."

These "fires" though, it indicates something I can't settle yet.  There's definitely torment, suffering due to states of mind.  Maybe we just have to live in the tension of unresolved identities, wondering if the fire of conflicting carnal nature is the fire of the lake of fire.  Is the lake of fire the flesh?  We're 3/4 water in that aspect of our being.  By being mortal, and sin reigns in the realm of death (cf., Rom 5 ^{12 and 21},) it is what must change.  It cannot remain.  It is not "for ever."  It burns around 98.6 degrees F. (while 90 % of the matter in the Universe exists at temperatures near absolute zero in giant clouds of methane or hydrogen.  The remaining 10% is in suns at temperatures inconceivably hot.)

[eaglesway]

I agree with most of that post. The problem is, imo, as it regards the forum, is that we cannot define the "truth" so succinctly that we do not wind up with many people feeling like they are fulfilling the roles you portrayed in your post- but opposed to one another and sure that the other is of Babylon and apostate.

Then the fires that burn are the "false fires" of human indignation. There are forums where that is the function and the purpose- not sure myself, if that would be a profitable direction for Tentmaker.

I still believe focusing on the Salvation of All, the Reconciliation of All and the Restoration of All Things is where the Holy Spirit desires us to dwell right now so that those who come, and even those who pass through, get that message and take it wherever they go.

I spent many years throwing rocks at the gates of Babylon before I realized the Lord had commanded me to GO TO ZION AND REBUILD THE TEMPLE.

IMO the lake of fire is the effect of the presence of God upon the wicked and the rebellious- beings with dark hearts and corrupted spirits chained in the light until all becomes light.

[reFORMer]

I agree with most of that post. The problem is, imo, as it regards the forum, is that we cannot define the "truth" so succinctly that we do not wind up with many people feeling like they are fulfilling the roles you portrayed in your post- but opposed to one another and sure that the other is of Babylon and apostate.

Then the fires that burn are the "false fires" of human indignation. There are forums where that is the function and the purpose- not sure myself, if that would be a profitable direction for Tentmaker.

Fuzzy headedness about what is true or good should not be thought a place engendering warm feelings for all.  God's satisfaction is our foremost concern.  I don't intend to evade my responsibility to "llift up my voice as a trumpet...with no uncertain sound."  God has changed my life and I am to bear witness to it.  As salt and light, my purpose is not to ignite "the 'false fires' of human indignation."  That would not be a profitable direction for anybody; and, (not "if", but,) when people are offended by the truth spoken in love, perhaps we can remember how unlike the present drift of godless society love really is...

[4] Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. [8] Charity never faileth..." (1 Cor 13^4-8, KJV)

I still believe focusing on the Salvation of All, the Reconciliation of All and the Restoration of All Things is where the Holy Spirit desires us to dwell right now so that those who come, and even those who pass through, get that message and take it wherever they go.

We understand our emphasis here at tentmaker is Universal Salvation.  It is in the context of all truth.  It is in agreement with the whole of scripture.  We are not to shrink from proclaiming "the whole counsel of God."  Unlike many others we genuinely have a "full gospel" to proclaim.  Jesus speaks of this bringing a sword.  Not only am I warned in the word, my experience has been that the gospel of peace has been fought against.  Our goal can't be not to upset anybody.

It is wrong to counsel ourselves to not mention this or that sin, to not illuminate how a certain course of action is harmful lest others misunderstand and reject me.  We sometimes justify this with the thought they'll be convicted if they get to know the Lord.  Let Jesus handle it.  Peter at least had changing of the mind, as well as being buried into Jesus death and raised in the newness of His life, in fact, "the remission of sins," as prior to receiving the gift of the Spirit of God.  "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "(Acts 2³⁸, KJV)  I'm sure this order of events was not quite meant as an invariable law, but it can be relied on as a good understanding of the work of God in the gospel which we are to preach to EVERY creature.

I spent many years throwing rocks at the gates of Babylon before I realized the Lord had commanded me to GO TO ZION AND REBUILD THE TEMPLE.

IMO the lake of fire is the effect of the presence of God upon the wicked and the rebellious- beings with dark hearts and corrupted spirits chained in the light until all becomes light.

I'm sure torment cannot be for ever!  I do not doubt it either.  What is already true of Jesus has to come to pass everywhere.  As He says in Revelation, "There shall be...NO MORE PAIN.  (It has been done.")  One thing implicated in this is that we have to grow up.  God is worthy of a people upon whom His name is written.  We are to "maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace..." while we are on the way to bearing His exact image.  That is, "...until we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and knowledge of the son of God, unto a Perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (Eph 4¹³, KJV)

[eaglesway]

one persons fuzzy headedness is another persons truth and vice versa. In a discussion forum engendering good feelings is the means of allowing positive discussion from different points of view- hopefully arriving at the truth.

Truth is, sometimes when you are absolutley sure of yourself I may think you are fuzzyheaded- but if I speak to you as if you are fuzzy headed, instead of giving you due respect and reasoning from the scriptures- not as if I am establishing final truth, but rather as one who is reasoning with another due simple respect(regardless of how wrong I think they are)- the odds of a genuine exchange of grace is more likey.

The absolute truth of Babylonite and Zionite forum is somewhere else on the internet :o)

[Captain.Theophilus]

If Torment is forever... we should hate our neighbors by imitating Christ (1 Cor. 11:1)

[VineBranch]

If Torment is forever, than Christ, while on the cross, should have said was:  "It is Kinda Finished."

[eaglesway]

If Torment is forever, than Christ, while on the cross, should have said was:  "It is Kinda Finished."

HAHA GOOD ONE.


Kinda Sorta Wished It Was But Isnt Really Finished eh? LOL

[Lazarus Short]

I'm glad we follow a Christ who did NOT say things like, "Listen up!  There is a measure of truth in what I say..."

[marcmarc]

If torture is forever, you'd be roasting in hell right now.  Forever spans 'all' time.
The word 'age' springs to mind.  Something mainstreamists just can't grasp.

[Lazarus Short]

If torture is forever, you'd be roasting in hell right now. 

Lots of folks believe just that, but believing doesn't make it true.  As to "forever," I think people mean it in the sense of "until the end of time" - a forward-pointing infinite span of time.  Whatever, Hell is a 404.