God, who creates evil

[Patrick]

Patrick,
if you want to talk hebrew...then learn the correct terms
the hebrew for God Almighty is El Elyon...not El Shaddai...El Shaddai means God of Peace

so...the "God of our Fathers" is El Elyon...God Almighty...the God of Jesus...NOT Yehovah/Yahweh OR Elohim

The God of our Fathers is Jehovah according to scripture.

Exo 3:13-15  And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?  (14)  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.  (15)  And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God  of your fathers,[/u] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Here is the KJV with strong numbers for verse 15
Exo 3:15  And GodH430 saidH559 moreoverH5750 untoH413 Moses,H4872 ThusH3541 shalt thou sayH559 untoH413 the childrenH1121 of Israel,H3478 The LORDH3068 GodH430 of your fathers,H1 the GodH430 of Abraham,H85 the GodH430 of Isaac,H3327 and the GodH430 of Jacob,H3290 hath sentH7971 me untoH413 you: thisH2088 is my nameH8034 for ever,H5769 and thisH2088 is my memorialH2143 unto all generations.H1755 H1755

The term LORD God In the Hebrew in verse 15 is Jehovah  Elohim  Please take the time to actually look it up in the strong's concordance and you will see that I am speaking the truth.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Patrick,

While there can be some debate about which Hebrew word is what name of God.  It sort of depends upon how someone is approaching it.


El Shaddai  Is the hebrew pronunciation.    Noname defined El Shaddai as (God of Peace)

Which may not be wrong, but Strongs simply has the definition of Shaddai as "The Almighty"

The God of peace is a view of God in context with the passage that it appears in.  So, thats not necessarily wrong.

The issue here is redirection from the point.   The verse in Exodus clearly contradicts a view that Yahweh and El-Shaddai are not the same God.

We might be able to enter into a debate about what name of God in Hebrew or Greek means what in english but that does not change the fact that all those names are in biblical reference to the same God. 

With that said, I also think the verse in exodus is very intriguing and it may explain why noname does not believe that God created Evil.

Noname, do you have an explaination from your view point concerning Exodus 6:3?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Mary... :hithere:

Once again Mary, I speak not against you, but against some of the things you suggest below in YOUR WORDS... no offense is intended...  :friendstu:

That last question is an interesting one Martin......

what evils await us all on the New Earth?

Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil.  There is only the tree of Life.  Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement.  When will the judgement end??

Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ.  Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.

I've struggled with that question myself, StainedGlass.  I like your answer; similar to what I believe about Love, that God created us because Love always requires the "other" to flow. He didn't need us for that, but it fulfilled what He is to do it. 

First you say that LOVE ALWAYS REQUIRES the "other" TO FLOW, ...then you say He didn't NEED us for that???? And that it FULFILLED HIM to be what HE IS to do it???  In other words GOD was UNFULFILLED until creating MEN...

That whole statement is filled with contrary thoughts... the "other" is required yet "not needed"... that it fulfilled Him to create US, and not HE, us... asserting a VOID in the eternal GOD, that MEN filled...  :faint:

MEN are FINITE, bound within the confines of TIME, subject to CONTINUOUS CHANGE... NOW always IS... GOD's Love has ALWAYS "flowed" otherwise... a CHANGE occured in Him... and in your suggestion states that prior to the "creation of men", God's LOVE did not "flow", needing (or not needing???) MEN for that "flowing" to occur...  :scratchhead:

There is no where (to my knowledge - show me if there is) in the Bible where it says GOD created MEN in order for His love to "flow"... 

Angelic beings (some are mentioned - cherubim, seraphim, archangels) are Eternal as are Sons...  GOD created MEN (vessels of Dishonor) to give His SONS (vessels of Honor) the knowledge of Good and Evil... and they could NOT eat of the TREE of LIFE until they had this knowledge...  For the TREE of LIFE has this knowledge and in part IS this knowledge...

(Matt 4:4) Man shall not live by BREAD ALONE, but BY every word that PROCEEDETH out of the mouth of GOD

I had never really thought about the fact that only the Tree of Life exists in the New Jerusalem.  I knew it was so, but hadn't considered the implications. Now you've got me wondering . . .

In Eden God had two trees, one prohibited, one not.  God could have just given Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and it would have been a done deal.  No original sin, no need for a savior from that sin . . .

First... there were MANY Trees in the Garden not just TWO, as evidenced by the word EVERY:  (Gen 2:16)

Second...  We must define what the "TREE of LIFE" actually IS...  It is the WORD of GOD... It is a SPIRITUAL TREE not a "physical" one...

The TREE of LIFE is JESUS CHRIST who said:  I am the VINE, ye are the branches = body  (John 15:1-5)  He also said:  I am the way the truth and the LIFE (John 14:6)

Interestingly, there is only ONE CENTER POINT to anything.  Yet the "tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" is mentioned as IN the MIDST (center)... and the "tree of LIFE" is also mentioned as IN the MIDST (center)... either they are part of the SAME entity, or BOTH are in the center, one being PHYSICAL and one SPIRITUAL... (really not sure nor decided on this, give me your take!)

Third... your SPECULATION above, is NOT viable because it IS NOT WRITTEN, meaning it is your thought NOT the thought of GOD which is that which, IS WRITTEN...

What IS WRITTEN is what IS, and IS what occured because it IS WRITTEN...

No such thing as ORIGINAL SIN, no "God" coulda, woulda, shoulda... He is an UNCHANGING entity... and there is only ONE scenario in which HE IS... and THAT is what occured in the Garden, ...no other possibilities suggested by sinful, mortal human beings "could have" occured...

Mal 3:6  I am the YHVH, ...I CHANGE NOT...

His WORD does not CHANGE either...

Heb 13:8  JESUS CHRIST, the SAME yesterday, today and forever.

Neither "becomes" anything rather ALWAYS IS, ...Neither is other (alternate scenarios as you infer above) than what He IS...

And is the TRUTHFUL basis upon which we can DEPEND and find SECURITY, eternally.

peacE...
...willieH  :cloud9:

[bobf]

Many people, unfortunately, are too simple minded to understand this concept. God is good God is all powerful and all knowing and evil exists. Therefore evil was created by God for a purpose He made it for. Evil only exists in creation, it does not exist outside of it.

Good point.  You can prove it logically based on God's onmiscience, omnipotence, and the existence of evil, and you can prove it from scripture.

Hey Craig,

I'd be interested in hearing how you 'resolve' the two statements that
1. God creates evil (e.g. moves David to number Israel which was sin)
2. God does not tempt man

I know how I (think I) resolve them, but I'd be interested in your viewpoint.

Thanks,
Bob

[Craig]

Hey Craig,

I'd be interested in hearing how you 'resolve' the two statements that
1. God creates evil (e.g. moves David to number Israel which was sin)
2. God does not tempt man

I know how I (think I) resolve them, but I'd be interested in your viewpoint.

Thanks,
Bob

1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.

2. God does not tempt man, but God tests all mankind. Deut 13:1-5.

[Molly]

1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

--Deut 13


Isn't this how the Pharisees/Sanhedrin  justified calling for the death of Jesus?

[bobf]

1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.

2. God does not tempt man, but God tests all mankind. Deut 13:1-5.

I agree with what you wrote, but I'm not sure it fully addresses what I was looking for.  Let me ask it another way.

How did God manage to move David to number Israel without tempting David to number Israel in a way that would break this passage?

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do you think scripture teaches that...
1. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin?
2. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin, even knowing that we will succumb to sin?

[noname]

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Thank you Molly! You have summed up the whole "evil god" thing...why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?
You have thus confirmed through Scripture that He does not want anything to do with evil according to genesis...and warns man to flee from it...Jesus said exactly those same words...that we should resist evil and flee from it

El Shaddai  Is the hebrew pronunciation.    Noname defined El Shaddai as (God of Peace)

Which may not be wrong, but Strongs simply has the definition of Shaddai as "The Almighty"

i once saw that Shaddai and Shalom have the same hebrew root word...which translates to peace

The phrase the "Most High God" in Gen 14:18 is translated from El Elyon.

Gen 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

"Almighty" and "Most High" sounds pretty close to the same to me?

Good one the quote about Melchizedek...who was the king of Peace (Salem...which is the same as Shalom)
we also know that if we follow Jesus, we are following in the footsteps of the Melchizedekian order...the order of peace...there can be no peace where evil is present...the picture Jesus gave us of the new Jerusalem...ie the new "city of Peace", is one without evil...that is what we have to strive for and what our purpose is on earth, to help establish the Kingdom of Peace and Righteousness...not going back to an era of evil...God's wish was NEVER for us to be enslaved to evil...as Molly already pointed out

@Craig
your little inuendos roll off like water brother...I think it is you that is simpleminded to think that God still lives in the past and does not want a better future (without evil) for his children...that was the whole point of Jesus' life and teachings...a better New Earth...we as mankind also have a responsibility to "prepare the bride" for the King's coming again when He will marry "the bride that is without spot or blemish"...can we say that the "bride" is currently ready for Him? NO...the bride has been whoring herself with war and destruction...with greed and corruption...all "in the name" of the bride...the bride has become an abomonation to Him...only by seeking and living in Peace and Righteousness would the bride cleanse herself of all her evil and be ready for her wedding to the King of kings...

from Genesis again:
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

These verses are further proof to me that man is the creator of evil on earth...not God...for God was grieved in his heart when He saw that man's "thoughts of his heart" were only evil...

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi noname,   I certainly understand the difficulty in wanting to see a good and loving God in light of passages that appear to be otherwise.   In my own walk I had to come to a point that if I was going to bother getting to know this god that I was compelled to believe in then I had to understand the difficult process that can be.   We can play games with words to avoid it, we can ignore scripture, we can claim it says something but does not mean what it says,  but none of that really digs into the truth as deeply as we think.

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Thank you Molly! You have summed up the whole "evil god" thing...why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?

The logic assumes that God only created something you think is good.   You can say it sounds a bit skitso that he would create evil, but that is simply shifting the starting point of a point of view.   

I'd say it sounds a bit demented, using your logic, that God would even create a being knowing it was going to create evil in the first place (this assumes your logic is sound).

You have thus confirmed through Scripture that He does not want anything to do with evil according to genesis...and warns man to flee from it...Jesus said exactly those same words...that we should resist evil and flee from it

No one is doubting that, that conclusion in no way prevents God from creating evil.

Did man create the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

These verses are further proof to me that man is the creator of evil on earth...not God...for God was grieved in his heart when He saw that man's "thoughts of his heart" were only evil...

So, was God somehow oblivious that his creation was going to do this?

Do you not see a greater perspective here than the point your trying to make?  Thats the problem with people who just cannot accept scripture in context with the purpose of something.  You think up opinions that sound logical, ask questions that appeal to emotion but use scripture in ways that contradicts other scripture.

Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.


You can say that you do not believe in this God, well, that doesn't matter.   You have yet to explain Exodus 6:3 in light of your opinion. 


Please cite a verse that is as specific to the creation of evil by man as this verse in Isaiah is and then we can talk about why there would appear to be a contradiction.


If we take the logical route, it is simply the best news there is that God knew all of this from the start. He is in such supreme control that it all works out for our benefit in the end.  That nothing happened that was not intended to happen, and that because God is inherantly Love then there is no other reason for anything that happens.

One day we will see.

[Craig]

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Thank you Molly! You have summed up the whole "evil god" thing...why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?

It wasn't Molly, pay attention the the discussion. She just posted the Scripture I just posted previously.

[Craig]

1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.

2. God does not tempt man, but God tests all mankind. Deut 13:1-5.

I agree with what you wrote, but I'm not sure it fully addresses what I was looking for.  Let me ask it another way.

How did God manage to move David to number Israel without tempting David to number Israel in a way that would break this passage?

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Do you think scripture teaches that...
1. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin?
2. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin, even knowing that we will succumb to sin?

The same way God hardened the heart of Pharoah to continue to sin, or how He gives the spirit of stupor to those who reject the knowledge of God and they go deeper into sin, etc.

[Michele]

Therefore evil was created by God for a purpose He made it for. Evil only exists in creation, it does not exist outside of it.

I agree.....and IMHO evil is only a part of the creation process, but the end result will be the removal of all evil, which is a reversal of the fall.

And what we'll have are many Lights....no longer separated by darkness/evil....together as One.  Face to face with our Father. :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:

:goodpost:

1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.

Very good brother!  This is exactly how I see it!

It is Very good, because it's end prompts praise of YHVH and His Son  JESUS CHRIST, in all beings of God...

You make a wonderful observation above... "GOOD" did not have to be "created" for it  IS the state of ALMIGHTY YHVH...

God in His wonderful wisdom, by creating EVIL has shown to ALL observing and participating beings, ...that IT not only opposes Who and What He IS, but ESTABLISHES the vision of Who and What He IS...  which is Eternally  HOLY and GOOD... and above all, LOVE,  ...and which has been firmly displayed by the creation and temporary (time) manifestation of EVIL...

peacE...
...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

God's wish was NEVER for us to be enslaved to evil...as Molly already pointed out

If GOD never "wished" (I find it hard to believe God "wishes" for anything") EVIL NEVER to be manifest... which is the ENSLAVEMENT of MEN... then WHY did He create it Noname?  And WHY were Adam & Eve given the ABILITY to disobey?  And WHY was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world?

These things CLEARLY show that there was INTENTION in the "creation" of EVIL, and that IT was CLEARLY a portion which prohibited YHVH from being ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28), or ...for that which is KNOWN to KNOW as it is KNOWN... (1 Cor 13:12)

from Genesis again:
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

I'd like to address this quotation...

We are not ALONE in our suffering, brother noname...   :grouppray:

GOD is LONGSUFFERING (Rom 9:22-23) with us...  :friendstu: The above quotation you make above, is a report of that LONGSUFFERING.

GOD did not observe and "repent", as do MEN, ...of what He did!  :omg:

He knew what was going to "take place" LONG BEFORE it "took place".  And GOD does NOT CHANGE... repentence is an act of CHANGE, ...containing a REGRET for something done... and desire for REVERSAL...

To observe these verses as stating this makes God look like He is playing games with Himself... and that what He did, ...KNOWING... beforehand its outcome, was a BAD IDEA...  :mshock:  ...You are welcome to embrace it if you choose (and I do not condemn you in any way for it)... But there is NO WAY that I shall agree with such thinking...

As GOD is watching us go through all this, it is VERY Heart-wrenching for Him!  Do you have children? 

I can tell you that, when my daughter's heart got broken a few times as she grew up... mine SURELY broke with hers...  GOD is no different as a parent.

As His Children (necessarily) suffer, ...it STILL, even though His PURPOSE is done in that suffering, ...is no easier for Him to observe, than was my observation of my daughters broken heart...

These verses are further proof to me that man is the creator of evil on earth...not God...for God was grieved in his heart when He saw that man's "thoughts of his heart" were only evil...

GOD's Word says HE created EVIL... (Is 45:7)... Man did not create EVIL... otherwise many Scriptures are compromised such as (Col 1:16-17)

MAN involved himself in EVIL by disobeying the Command of GOD... but he did not BRING into existence (which is what "create" means)... the PRINCIPALITY of EVIL...

He simply put into manifestation, the PRINCIPALITY of EVIL... a premise which was ALREADY there within the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH (Gen 3:22)  :dontknow:

Displaying by that manifestation, OPPOSITION to GOOD, which is inherently the state in which YHVH, ...IS...

And BOTH Good and Evil, find ROOT in the SAME TREE... (Gen 2:17) which was in the MIDST of the Garden... the center of Paradise.

peacE...
...willieH  :cloud9:

[bobf]

why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?

I don't think it does.

God sent evil to Job.
God led Christ to be tempted by evil Satan.

So there you have two examples where God purposely wanted righteous men to be sujbected to evil and yet to resist the very evil God placed them in.  If God purposely wants righteous men to endure and overcome evil, doesn't there need to be evil?

[Craig]

If God purposely wants righteous men to endure and overcome evil, doesn't there need to be evil?

I do not know if that is a good way to phrase it. The rebuttal answer to this would be to know the real thing, one does not need experience a counterfeit. A person can spot a counterfeit not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the real thing. Therefore a righteous man can endure and overcome evil without ever experiencing evil. The proposition that evil exists, still exists and I think that is what you are getting at. A driving force to know the real thing, is because counterfeits are out there. So we are back to the question of this thread, who created evil?

These are the four propositions which Christians confess to truth:

1. God is Good.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all knowing
4. Evil exists.

There is only one answer, which has already been given by myself and a few others, in which all these four propositions remain consistent and true.

[Craig]

why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?

A plow is made to tear up the ground in order to loosen the earth so that seeds can receive air, moisture and be able to break through to grow. It serves a purpose. If I created a plow to plow the field and tell you to stay out of the field and run away from the plow when you see it coming should you be in the field... it is not because I am scytso, it is because it was created for a purpose and I do not want you hurt in the process.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.

[bobf]

I do not know if that is a good way to phrase it. The rebuttal answer to this would be to know the real thing, one does not need experience a counterfeit. A person can spot a counterfeit not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the real thing.

But I'm not talking about spotting and recognizing evil.  I'm talking about experiencially resisting evil and overcoming evil.  God gave Job an experience of evil.  God could have shown Job a movie about it, and Job could then have spotted good vs. evil, but it would not have been the same thing.

So I do believe that to know evil (intimately) one must experience it.  For example.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Therefore a righteous man can endure and overcome evil without ever experiencing evil.

I don't see how.  Enduring evil implies experiencing evil.

These are the four propositions which Christians confess to truth:

1. God is Good.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all knowing
4. Evil exists.

There is only one answer, which has already been given by myself and a few others, in which all these four propositions remain consistent and true.

The usual rebuttal to the above is free will.  God wanted men to freely love Him, so God had to give us free will else we'd be robots.  So even knowing that free will would bring evil, God had no real choice in the matter since He wanted us to freely love Him.  Then we abused our free will and created all the evil and God created none of it.  It's a God-hand-washing technique.

[Michele]

I agree Bobf.......

Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand.

[bobf]

I agree Bobf.......

Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand.

Thanks... I've never heard that one before, but it rings true!

[Molly]

So I do believe that to know evil (intimately) one must experience it.

I'm beginning to think you are right.  Somehow, people don't seem to be able to see evil when they are doing it themselves.  It's like they have no empathy at all.  Compassion and empathy seems to be a Christ like characteristic that is acquired by evil being done to you.

People seem to be, left to their own devices, morally blind, without remorse or compassion.



3 He was despised and rejected by men,
       a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

--Isa 53



3 who forgives all your sins
       and heals all your diseases,

4 who redeems your life from the pit
       and crowns you with love and compassion,

--Psa 103

[Craig]

I do not know if that is a good way to phrase it. The rebuttal answer to this would be to know the real thing, one does not need experience a counterfeit. A person can spot a counterfeit not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the real thing.

But I'm not talking about spotting and recognizing evil.  I'm talking about experiencially resisting evil and overcoming evil.  God gave Job an experience of evil.  God could have shown Job a movie about it, and Job could then have spotted good vs. evil, but it would not have been the same thing.

So I do believe that to know evil (intimately) one must experience it.  For example.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Exactly. I was playing the advocate. That is how we, as human beings, receive the knowledge of good and evil, through experience. The rebuttal to this is, why did God make us this way?

Therefore a righteous man can endure and overcome evil without ever experiencing evil.

I don't see how.  Enduring evil implies experiencing evil.

Exactly. Once again I was playing the advocate. There is always a presupposition which states that to know evil, we do not need to experience it. Why do we need to endure evil? Because we are not all powerful. Why do we need to overcome evil? Because we are not all knowing. We are not God.

[

These are the four propositions which Christians confess to truth:

1. God is Good.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all knowing
4. Evil exists.

There is only one answer, which has already been given by myself and a few others, in which all these four propositions remain consistent and true.

The usual rebuttal to the above is free will.  God wanted men to freely love Him, so God had to give us free will else we'd be robots.  So even knowing that free will would bring evil, God had no real choice in the matter since He wanted us to freely love Him.  Then we abused our free will and created all the evil and God created none of it.  It's a God-hand-washing technique.

Free will is involved in the answer, it is not the answer completely. If we have a will, it is free within the habitation and boundaries God had made it. We are not all power nor are we all knowing. Since God is all power and all knowing and evil exists and our current workings of how we attain, retain and understand knowledge is in our being, means God had intended it's creation and therefore created it.

[bobf]

Exactly. I was playing the advocate. That is how we, as human beings, receive the knowledge of good and evil, through experience. The rebuttal to this is, why did God make us this way?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Make us what way?  Do you mean limited, such that we must experience evil in order to gain an intimate knowlege of it?

Perhaps there is no other way.  Suppose God snapped his fingers and we instantly obtained an complete and intimate experiencial knowlege of evil and of the overcoming evil.  Wouldn't that be just like experiencing and overcoming evil?

This scripture is interesting:

Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Sounds like God experiencing evil along with us.

Exactly. Once again I was playing the advocate. There is always a presupposition which states that to know evil, we do not need to experience it. Why do we need to endure evil? Because we are not all powerful. Why do we need to overcome evil? Because we are not all knowing. We are not God.

And God being all knowing, He must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, I think.

Free will is involved in the answer, it is not the answer completely. If we have a will, it is free within the habitation and boundaries God had made it. We are not all power nor are we all knowing. Since God is all power and all knowing and evil exists and our current workings of how we attain, retain and understand knowledge is in our being, means God had intended it's creation and therefore created it.

I've said this before - I don't much like the term 'free will'.  I see no reason not to use the less ambiguious terms 'will' and 'choice'.  I have difficulty understanding any statement someone makes using the term 'free will' because I have experienced too wide a variation in the way people use the term.   To some people 'free will means 'the ability to choose'.  To others it means 'a will that is free from God's shaping'.  IMO the former view is scriptural, while the latter view is idolatry of man's will.

But yes, evil exists, God is omnipotent & omnicient, so God intended it.

[Craig]

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Make us what way?  Do you mean limited, such that we must experience evil in order to gain an intimate knowlege of it?

Exactly, and since we ARE made this way, then this is how God intended it. Otherwise, He is not God at all and not our Creator.

And God being all knowing, He must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, I think.

Since He is the one who created it in the first place, I agree with you and very much believe He has experienced it. However in what capacity is not for us to know, nor would we understand. It is quite irrelevant to us in the first place.

I've said this before - I don't much like the term 'free will'.  I see no reason not to use the less ambiguious terms 'will' and 'choice'.  I have difficulty understanding any statement someone makes using the term 'free will' because I have experienced too wide a variation in the way people use the term.   To some people 'free will means 'the ability to choose'.  To others it means 'a will that is free from God's shaping'.  IMO the former view is scriptural, while the latter view is idolatry of man's will.

I say this kind and gently, that is something you need to get over.

Here is the universal, theological & philosophical, definition of 'Free-will' even among those who do not believe there is a God.

"Free Will" is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. -Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

It goes on to say that there is Free-will and Free-action, and we do not have Free-action since most all the choices we make are outside our control to accomplish.

Most who deny it, means they do not understand how the adjective is used, and continue to use the word 'free' independent of the noun phrase along with a presupposition which is not always found in the term 'free-will' which is self-determination. Free-fall, is still a fall and the adjective of 'free' dependent upon the noun 'fall' and therefore everything that applies to falling, applies to free-falling. Free-will, is still a will and the adjective 'free' is dependent upon the noun 'will' and therefore everything that applies to a will, applies to a free-will and that includes manipulation,  guidence, over-ruling, etc. Free-will is just the type of will a human being has; now the type of Free-will we have been contested by everyone.

It doesn't matter what others say, what matters is what is true.

I have found Free-will if the will is free, is only free within the habitations and boundaries God set up. We are not all powerful and we are not all knowing, adding the adjective 'free' does not make us all powerful and all knowing. Free-will just means we have the ability to make a choice when one is presented, that is called a freedom of will, not a will that is free outside influence or it's environment or it's limitations.

I know this is a problem for some, but changing it's definition isn't going to make it any less true.

Craig

[Michele]

Sounds like God experiencing evil along with us.

I believe this to be true....

IMHO experiencing evil means experiencing separation from God.

What does this mean to you......God experiencing separation from God??

To me it sounds like the encounter of the Father and Son at the cross.