Hello,
how do you understand the following verse:
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Quote from: B_T on June 20, 2008, 11:37:37 AM
Hello,
how do you understand the following verse:
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God is taking responsibility for everything.
cp
Quote from: B_T on June 20, 2008, 11:37:37 AM
Hello,
how do you understand the following verse:
Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version):
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I see a couple of main things here. First it is God taking responsibility for everything. Secondly I see a much greater God than I once thought of.
As I started seeing the great love God has for everyone,then reading that God is inherently Love and God being in control of all, it is amazing to me how that shows that our Destiny lies in the Hands of the Living God and that there is no greater place to fall.
As we spoke in our discussion in PM's, I hope that was helpful.
A system based on fear, sees the evil that God created from the perspective of a spirit of fear. God is not a man, therefore the evil God creates is not like the evil man commits.
This is difficult to imagine or understand, but all things in Creation are a result of God creating it to be that way. It is hard to understand why God created a very good creation and not a perfect creation; and why God's creation from the start was created with a flaw. God created creation and created it to be flawed. It won't make sense why God created creation to be flawed, if the end result is that creation will be endlessly tortured in the end, either.
Everything was created with a plan and purpose in mind, everything according to the will and desire of God. That means all things in this creation, was created ontologically very good. That included the knowledge of evil, the flaw, and the capability for mankind to experience and commit evil. God created everything for an end result that is not just very good, but perfect as He is perfect.
At present, we cannot see this because we see everything in part and looking through the mirror dimly. Though we shall fully know as we are fully known.
Craig
It is an interesting passage. I guess it is correct, since He created everything. I like the idea that He is willing to claim responsibility for it, shows He does not deny things. That said, I always understood it to be more of Him "allowing" evil. Or could it be that by allowing it, He in essence "created" it? Now you are going to have me pondering this for a while.
Depends on how you define evil, imo.
If evil is the absence of the Good, then I have no problem reconciling the fact that God created all things Good, but also says He created evil.
Evil is inherent in any Good thing as an unactivated potential; it is always potentially possible for the Good within the thing not to be expressed.
Since we are told God is Love, then the greatest Good is Love. Any time we do not use a thing for the Good God intended it to be used for, we activate that evil.
God created the potential for evil; He does not, nor ever could activate it Himself because He is Love. Man, however, is far from perfect and quite often activates the evil within all the good things God created.
If we want to rid the world of evil, then we should fill the "lack of Good" with waht is missing--Love.
ME
Quote from: SOtW on June 20, 2008, 06:20:32 PM
This is difficult to imagine or understand, but all things in Creation are a result of God creating it to be that way. It is hard to understand why God created a very good creation and not a perfect creation; and why God's creation from the start was created with a flaw. God created creation and created it to be flawed. It won't make sense why God created creation to be flawed, if the end result is that creation will be endlessly tortured in the end, either.
Everything was created with a plan and purpose in mind, everything according to the will and desire of God. That means all things in this creation, was created ontologically very good. That included the knowledge of evil, the flaw, and the capability for mankind to experience and commit evil. God created everything for an end result that is not just very good, but perfect as He is perfect.
At present, we cannot see this because we see everything in part and looking through the mirror dimly. Though we shall fully know as we are fully known.
Craig
:goodpost:. IMO, God not only takes responsibility, He, as Craig says, did it for a perfect purpose and will bring it to a perfect end. I can't fully understand it, but that doesn't mean what God says is not exactly true and exactly right, righteous, perfect. I believe only God can and will eventually bring about "no evil", because He's in control and the present evil temporarily serves His eternal purpose. God's love is still present in His creation and operation of evil, I believe it's just more than my finite mind can comprehend. That's part of why He basically said to Job, "will you accuse me so you can justify yourself"? And again, basically, "what do you have to say about creation to the Creator...did you have anything to do with it?" :doh: And I like Job have to say, "uh, no". :laugh2:.
The KJV often speaks of judgment as evil, as in the case where God was about to come down hard on Israel and after Moses's intercession it says that God repented of the evil that He was going to bring on them. Contextually, baring this in mind, the book of Isaiah was anticipating the Babylonian captivity of Israel. So, among other possible interpretations, God was speaking of the evil that was in the works for His rebellious, stubbornly unrepentant nation of Israel. This is also an interesting subjective verse to bring up in the light of the current deception that passes for sound thinking on Matthew 25:46: if for any reason and at any time God has created evil, are we to understand that He must always create evil or forfeit being the Creator of Good? And if that's the case, then what evils await us all on the New Earth?
Just sneaked in here today and saw this topic. One thing that came to my mind is that it doesn't say that Father creates good and evil but peace and 'evil'.
Here is what the hebrew words for good (tov) and evil (ra) originaly meant:
Tov: Good, Soft, Quiet, Gentle, Tender, Rippling (as a Mountain stream,) Kind, Mild, Shy, Humble, Meek, Retiring, Unobtrusive, Unassuming, Tender-hearted, Courteous, Chivalrous, Easily entreated, Employing economy of words.
Ra: Loud, Noisy, Breaking, Crashing (as Niagara in full flood,) Robust, Energetic, Flamboyant, Displaying, Demonstrative, Expressive, Forthright, Brilliant, Unreserved, Exhibiting, Flourishing, Verbose.
Note that none of the words for ra have any relation to moral evil/sin. (Which is missing the mark/or failing. Something we know Father never does.)
In this context I would suggest that the scripture ought to be translated:
I make peace, and I cause (hebr. bara) trouble. I Yahwe do all these things.
To translate this scripture as saying Father creates moral evil doesn't make sense to me, if we agree on it that this scripture says Father causes the opposite of peace and not the opposite of Goodness.
Also the hebrew word for 'create'- bara- can mean to cause, to form, to make, yes even to seperate. (Which is interesting if one remembers that Father seperated the darkness from the light in the beginning.)
All the Creation days started with the evening. In other words whatever Father does He starts with the raw material that He speaks into exisence. All His works beginn in darkness because as soon as they come forth from Him they are seperate from Himself Who is pure Light, and in Whom there is no darkness at all.
In the beginning Father spoke into existence the raw material of creation and there was darkness and chaos. Than He spoke His Light into it and formed it and to the first day, seeing it was good.
The evil that Father's creatures cause is always the destruction of the good that Father formed.
So I can see both sides, but would agree with Martin that we need to see this also in the context of what it would mean that we are formed into Father's Image if we believe He is the Author of sin, evil and death. (Something I still refuse to believe even though I believe in Father's absolute soverignty.)
After all. Scripture tells us that the lust of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life are not from the Father but from the world (cosmos) He created.
"Since God is Good, whatever He does, He does for man's sake. But whatever man does, he does for his own sake, both what is good and what is evil." Philokalia, vol. 1, chap. 121, St. Anthony the Great.
You have your definitions incorrect. RA is moral and ethical evil. Sorry to disappoint you.
Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good [TOWB] and evil [RA].
Lamentations 3:37-38
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil [RA] and good [TOWB].
Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil [RA] way, that I may repent of the evil [RA] which I am planning to do to them because of the evil [RAO] of their deeds.'
Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil [RA] which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil evil [RA] way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Amos 3:6
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When evil [RA] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace [SHALOWM], and create evil [RA]: I the LORD do all these [things].
Also see:
Jeremiah 36:3, Jeremiah 32:42, Jeremiah 11:11, Jeremiah 14:16, Jeremiah 18:11, Jeremiah 19:3, Jeremiah 19:15, Jeremiah 23:12, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 35:17, Jeremiah 36:31, Jeremiah 40:2, Jeremiah 42:10, Jeremiah 42:17, Jeremiah 44:2, Jeremiah 45:5, Jeremiah 49:37, Jeremiah 51:64, Ezekiel 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chronicles 34:24, 2 Chronicles 34:28, 1 Samuel 16:23, 1 Samuel 18:10, 1 Samuel 19:9, 1 Samuel 16:15, 1 Samuel 16:14, Micah 1:12, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Judges 9:23, 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 21:12, Isaiah 31:2. (and these are the places where it directly states that evil is created, done, formed, made, setup, by God]
The most common rebuttle to this, is that it isn't actually meaning evil in the way we mean evil. Rather, it somehow actually means disaster, revenge, calamity, ill, etc. That is the reason I ensured to put Scriptures that demonstrate the same word for moral evil, such as the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the evil mankind does, is the 'evil' in the way we mean evil, and find out it is the exact same word for both man and God. That word is "RA"
Ready for it?
The Hebrew definition of Evil:
Ra
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
i) in general, of persons, of thoughts
ii) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
I do not know where you got your definitions, but they do not line up to the context or usage of the word "RA" in Scripture.
I have to agree that Evil is the proper translation of RA. Any other word is really just watering down the truth to make it "Not as bad" . Oh, God doesn't make evil because that would be wrong, but He can make calamity and thats ok, give us a break please. Don't mean to be personally abrasive to anyone, but there really isn't any difference if your trying to define the morality of a God.
From my perspective, God is our Father and he has us on a much greater journey than us as earthly Fathers may desire for our children.
Even though many Adults believe they have matured, in perspective of scripture, we are just babes. I wonder, do we remember being disciplined by our Parents? We can sift through the mistakes our Earthly Parents made and find the areas where we hated what they made us do, only to see later in life something that taught us to be better after we got through it?
How many parents have made their own children do something through the "I hate you's", the "Everyone else is doing it", the "You don't care about me" and all the protesting they did to try to keep us from doing what they did not perceive as good.
Why would We as babes not quite understand how this life is God shaping all his children in that manner, but having the power to make it right in the end?
I have a topic on another forum on this very subject. Not much response though, people have a hard time with the KJV of Isaiah 45:7.
Let me add to Craigs post on the subject.
Latin Vulgate Isa 45:7 formans lucem et creans tenebras faciens pacem et creans malum ego Dominus faciens omnia haec
Malum From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malum in se (plural mala in se) is a Latin phrase meaning wrong or evil in itself. This concept is a part of the "value consensus model" explanation of the origins of the criminal law. The phrase is used to refer to conduct thought to be inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct. It is distinguished from malum prohibitum, which is wrong only because it is prohibited. For example, murder of human beings is universally agreed to be wrong by other human beings, regardless of whether a law exists or where the conduct occurs, and is thus recognizably malum in se. In contrast, consider driving laws. In the US, people drive on the right-hand side of the road. In the UK and other states of the Commonwealth, people drive on the left-hand side. This is an example of a malum prohibitum law because the act is not inherently bad, but is forbidden by policy, as set forth by the policy-makers of the jurisdiction. Malum prohibitum crimes are criminal not because they are inherently bad, but because the prohibited act is forbidden by the policy of the state. Crimes such as larceny, rape and murder are considered malum in se. This concept was used to develop the various common law crimes. [1]
LXX Isa 45:7 εγω κατασκευασας φως και ποιησας σκοτος ο ποιων ειρηνην και κτιζων κακα 2556 εγω κυριος ο θεος ο ποιων ταυτα παντα
So we have the Greek word κακα 2556 in place of Ra.
Word Study
G2556
κακὸς
kakós; fem. kaké, neut. kakón, adj. Bad, worthless externally. Of a soldier, cowardly. In the NT evil, wicked, from the verb cházō or cházomai (n.f.), to give back, recede, retire, retreat in battle. One who is evil in himself and, as such, gets others in trouble.
(I) In a moral sense meaning wicked, vicious, bad in heart, conduct, and character (Mat_21:41; Mat_24:48; Phi_3:2; Rev_2:2, impostors). Of things (Mar_7:21, evil thoughts; Rom_13:3, evil works; 1Co_15:33, evil conversations; Col_3:5; Sept.: Pro_6:18; Pro_15:3). In the neut. tó kakón, and pl., tá kaká, evil, evil things, wickedness, fault, crime (Mat_27:23; Mar_15:14; Luk_23:22; Joh_18:23; Act_23:9; Rom_1:30; Rom_2:9; Rom_3:8; Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21; Rom_9:11; Rom_13:4; Rom_16:19; 1Co_10:6; 2Co_5:10; 2Co_13:7; 1Ti_6:10; Heb_5:14; Jam_1:13; 1Pe_3:12; 3Jo_1:11; Sept.: Pro_3:7).
(II) Actively causing evil, i.e., hurtful, harmful (Rom_14:20; Tit_1:12, "ravenous beasts" [a.t.]; Rev_16:2; Sept.: Pro_16:4; Amo_6:3). In the neut., to kakón, evil, i.e., cause or source of evil (Jam_3:8); evil done to anyone, harm, injury (Act_16:28; Act_28:5; Rom_12:17, Rom_12:21; Rom_13:10; 1Co_13:5; 1Th_5:15; 1Pe_3:9, 1Pe_3:11). In words, evil speaking (1Pe_3:10; Sept.: Mic_7:3). Pl., tá kaká, evils, i.e., troubles, afflictions (Luk_16:25; Act_9:13; 2Ti_4:14; Sept.: Gen_44:34; Gen_48:16; Isa_46:7; Jer_14:8).
The Greek word in no way suggest "trouble' or clamity. In fact, the Hebrew already have a word for "calamity!"
I pulled this off the other forum too..
The book of Job offers many clues into the understanding of evil. We all know the story so I will only cover specific details. First, let's look at Job, the man.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.
We are told up front that Job was blameless, upright, and turned away evil. Yet, Job experienced severe evil at the hand of Satan. Why? Why did God do this to him? Yes, it was God that was the cause.
Job 1:8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Who brought up the topic of Job? Satan or God? Yes, it was God. Since you already know the story, you know that Job was a pawn in a conversation between Satan and God. So did Job suffered evil to prove a point for God? Did this happen to Job so God could be correct in His assessment? What did Satan say?
Job 1:11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face."
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Now why did God put Job in Satan's hands? And not use His own?
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
It was because God could not! As shown in James 1:13. God could not tempt Job to curse Him! But Satan could!
Job knew very well what he was experiencing was evil and not some calamity!
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
We would all agree that God does not use evil without purpose! So what was the purpose here with Job? Are we to be like Job when he says:
Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
So what was the reason? Why did Job, an upright man, suffer evil at the hand of Satan? Was it to only prove a point for God?
So what is the purpose of evil for the Christian? For we surely experience it!
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
We would all agree that we wrestle against spiritual forces of evil in heavenly places! But where did these forces come from?
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
I thought Satan created evil? Yet, Col 1:16 is telling us all thrones or dominions or authorities were created by God! Let's see how evil is used against Christians.
Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
We are tested by it!
2Co 12:7 So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated.
CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
We are humbled by it!
Mat 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Mat 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
We are brought into obedience by it!
Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Jesus suffered much evil from the hands of men!
With the help of Christ in us we can overcome it!
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
Rev 2:7 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'
Rev 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Evil is part of our training process! Without evil, we could not know good. Evil is used through out our Bible, for both positive and what would appear negative purposes.
I think what the Bible tells us about Satan holds many clues to the concept of evil, and they do not hold to the views of orthodox Christianity. Why is this mysterious character of the Bible, whom we are taught is the creator of evil allowed so much control?
Paul
Well, back to Job! Yes, indeed! Job is a very particular book, a book that shakes the view of Satan to it's orthodox core!
What saith the scriptures:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
Can anyone tell me here , what just happened? Yes, the sons of God came to present them selves before the LORD GOD!
Now WHO came along among them?
Satan? The fallen angel which did battle with God Himself, and God who barely got by with only 1/3 of his own angles lost? Is this the very outcast that is sneaking in God's presents?
No indeed, This is no fallen angel who did battle with God! Just look at the conversation!
Does God seem surprised to see Satan? No.
Does Satan seem out of place? No.
So what's going on? Satan appears as just another of one of God's creatures. Just look again at how casual God speaks to Satan!
The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?"
And look at the reply!
"From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
This is not a conversation from two spiritual beings who have had a great battle! Note too, God is always in power and control.
All through out the conversation about Job, Satan has to get permission from God to act! MAKE NOTE ! Nothing done by Satan is with out God's permission!
Now, let's jump forward in time. Jesus has died on the cross, and Satan is defeated! So why does he (Satan) still roam free?
Now just what is Satan doing?
Mar 4:14 "The sower sows the word. 15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.
Hold the phones people, Satan does WHAT? HE comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. Them WHO? The children of God? Now ask yourself, why does a loving God allow a defeated Satan to do such a thing? Is this what God's wants for his children?
Wait, there's more...
God allowed a cherished apostle to suffer at the hand of Satan!
2Co 12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
Even here as in Job, Satan is used by God to keep Paul from exalting himself.
1Th 2:18 For we wanted to come to you--I, Paul, more than once--and yet Satan hindered us.
Can the mighty power of Satan be stronger than the God of Paul? No, but why is Satan allowed to act?
Now, if Satan can keep Paul from going where he wants, can Paul himself use Satan for his (Paul's) own purpose? Yes, he can!
1Co 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Let's put this in context, Paul is turning over an unrepentant sinner over to Satan to be destroyed! Now many would say OK so what! Just look at the reason!
so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Paul is using Satan as an aid for the salvation of another human being! Now, Paul is the one in control and not Satan who does only what he was created for!
So why is Satan who is a defeated foe of God, allowed to roam the earth and feed off the dust?
Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground
Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;
Satan did not create himself, and did not create evil! This much is clear!
Paul
QuoteSo what was the reason? Why did Job, an upright man, suffer evil at the hand of Satan? Was it to only prove a point for God?
So what is the purpose of evil for the Christian? For we surely experience it!
25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.--Romans 16
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in
the mystery of Christ) 5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9And to make all men see what is
the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, --Ephesians 3
1 John 5:4
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one
who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
Good stuff Paul and Paul :laughing7:
The bottom line is that we cannot tell the difference between good and evil without Christ. We are proving it right at this moment. We have proven it throughout the history of the last 100 years. We prove it every day.
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
This is the condemnation. By your own words you are condemned, Jesus says.
30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. --Matt 23
We too will fill up the measure of our fathers. God puts before us, not good and evil, but life and death. Those are the only two choices. He makes it as easy as possible--is that choice leading to life or death?
As long as the world cannot tell the difference, person by person, we will be judged.
Those stiff-necked pharisees, like ourselves, couldn't get it then, and can't get it now. Our only hope is Christ.
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
--John Donne, Meditation 17, 1624
Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
QuoteThe Greek word in no way suggest "trouble' or clamity. In fact, the Hebrew already have a word for "calamity!"
Exactly.
Ready for it?
The Hebrew definition of Calamity, Disaster:
'eyd 1) distress, burden, calamity
a) burden (of the righteous)
b) calamity (of nation)
c) disaster (of wicked)
d) day of calamity
Do we propose writers of Hebrew would confuse Ra for 'Eyd? That through their zeal, they would make a great mistake? Or could it be, and I submit most humbly, in fact the mistake of the modern 'contemporary' theologian, who cannot reconciled what sin and evil towards mankind, that mankind could have any good result? I believe there is no mistake, Scripture is clear that God did intend and create sin and evil to live in this creation. It is God who does these things and placed us in this habitation.
In fact, here is how God created sin without himself sinning.
"When the commandment came, sin came to life. [
Romans 7:9]
Now recognize when sin came into being.
Genesis 2:15-17 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
God created the tree of knowledge, God gave the commandment, God did all these things. So according to the Scriptures, the conclusion is firm and steadfast. The reality is, much of the reason we have such a disturbing and uncomfortable feeling concerning this, is because of the doctrines such we have accepted to fill the gap. Just because God created evil, does not mean He is ontologically evil. The problem of evil is mainly the problem of perception and false presupposition.
I pulled this post from the other forum.
Quote
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
--Isaiah 45:7
This verse is critical for the discussion. The terms in Hebrew that are used for "and create evil" are וּבוֹרֵא רָע . Create here is the same word as used when God created the universe in Genesis 1. it does not mean 'dispatched' or something along those lines, as has been suggested here. And evil is "ra", whose meaning as 'bad' or 'evil' has been elucidated in the OP.
If we look at the context, this will all become clearer:
Isaiah 45, KJV
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The point that the prophet is making is that God is the only power. He is responsible for everything - even evil. The prophet is speaking against polytheism, including the view that God is responsible for good, and some other power is responsible for evil. This seems quite clear from the text.
The reason I'm sharing this is because the person who wrote it is Jewish, he is not a Christian Jew. He usually stays at the forum because as he puts it... "I don't like it when Christians twist the Hebrew text to make it fit their doctrine." He has been helpful to me in testing some of my Hebraic concepts regarding the O.T. As he usually offers Hebrew web links to back up his post.
Paul
Quote from: SOtW on June 22, 2008, 04:48:57 AM
You have your definitions incorrect. RA is moral and ethical evil. Sorry to disappoint you.
Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good [TOWB] and evil [RA].
Lamentations 3:37-38
Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil [RA] and good [TOWB].
Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil [RA] way, that I may Repenter of the evil [RA] which I am planning to do to them because of the evil [RAO] of their deeds.'
Jeremiah 36:3
It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil [RA] which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil evil [RA] way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Amos 3:6
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When evil [RA] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace [SHALOWM], and create evil [RA]: I the LORD do all these [things].
Also see:
Jeremiah 36:3, Jeremiah 32:42, Jeremiah 11:11, Jeremiah 14:16, Jeremiah 18:11, Jeremiah 19:3, Jeremiah 19:15, Jeremiah 23:12, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 35:17, Jeremiah 36:31, Jeremiah 40:2, Jeremiah 42:10, Jeremiah 42:17, Jeremiah 44:2, Jeremiah 45:5, Jeremiah 49:37, Jeremiah 51:64, Ezekiel 6:10, Micah 2:3, 1 Kings 21:29, 2 Chronicles 34:24, 2 Chronicles 34:28, 1 Samuel 16:23, 1 Samuel 18:10, 1 Samuel 19:9, 1 Samuel 16:15, 1 Samuel 16:14, Micah 1:12, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Judges 9:23, 1 Kings 14:10, 2 Kings 21:12, Isaiah 31:2. (and these are the places where it directly states that evil is created, done, formed, made, setup, by God]
The most common rebuttle to this, is that it isn't actually meaning evil in the way we mean evil. Rather, it somehow actually means disaster, revenge, calamity, ill, etc. That is the reason I ensured to put Scriptures that demonstrate the same word for moral evil, such as the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the evil mankind does, is the 'evil' in the way we mean evil, and find out it is the exact same word for both man and God. That word is "RA"
Ready for it?
The Hebrew definition of Evil:
Ra
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
i) in general, of persons, of thoughts
ii) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a) evil, distress, adversity
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
a) evil, misery, distress
b) evil, injury, wrong
c) evil (ethical)
I do not know where you got your definitions, but they do not line up to the context or usage of the word "RA" in Scripture.
I don't think that I got that wrong. Rather these words became a moral corronation
after the fall. That's why the Amplified Bible for example also calles the tree of knowlede of good and evil, the tree of the kowledge of blessings and calamities/curses. (Reminds me of the law.)
The problem was not about the knowledge itself but that man ate it on his own termns, trying to be independend of his Creator and thus missing the mark of his existence, namely living by His life.
In itself the tree spoke about the gentle and the powerful side of Father, His power always governed by His love and gentlesness. But when man ate if on his selfish terms trying to be his own god (judge) he despised the gentleness of his Creator trying to grasp more and more power.
Thus ra became our definition of evil. The word is derived from a verb of similar sound (RAA) which, according to Gesenius means "to make a loud noise, or to break in pieces." Hence strictly RA means "a loud noise," or "a smashing sound."
The point was that Father wanted to teach man Himself about this realities.
In fact, the scriptue in Isiah can even be tranlated as:
"I bring forth light and seperate the darkness. I establish harmony and form chaos (into something good). I Yahwe do all these things."
That's how the post-apostolic writers understood it at least. (See for example
That God is Not the Cause of Evils by Basil the Great.)
This in no way means that Father is not in control over evil. To deny this one must deny huge pieces of scriputes and no one here ever denied this.
Genesis 2:9Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good [TOWB] and evil [RA].
Not that the tree of knowledge of it was grown not good and evil itself. And what this meant I already mentioned.
Lamentations 3:37-38Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil [RA] and good [TOWB].
First of all, this is a rethorical question, not a statement. And it falls under the same categorie as Job's statement about receiving good (blessings) and evil (calamities/curses) from Father's hands. When we look at Job's story we see that this is not literalism but rather an oriental expression. For we know that God is Love and Love can't even think evil.
Furhter James tells us that there is no shadow of turning with the Father of lights (speaking of stars and planets). An expression that is related to the fact that when the plantes turn the produce a shadow- they have a dark side. But this is not so with Him Who is Light and in Whom there is no darkness at all.
If this scripture would be literal that would imply our Father speaks double talk, something He wants to remove from us, His children. Just as He despises double-mindedness.
Jeremiah 36:3It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil [RA] which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil evil [RA] way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Jeremiah 26:3Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil [RA] way, that I may repent of the evil [RA] which I am planning to do to them because of the evil [RAO] of their deeds.'
This would be a good example of how one can translate ra as trouble. To use the term evil only confuses people. For it would imply that Father does evil (moral) to us so that we shouldn't do evil (moral) anymore (if taken in a literal sense.) However, even if one chooses to translate it this way, I think the meaning is obvious.
b]Amos 3:6[/b]
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When evil [RA] comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
The same thing here. For the evil that comes to the city is obviously war or even uproar.
What is the evil He does? Its His giving us over to our ways and desires until we are tired of being sick and tired and turn to Him.
A question
I'm not discounting anything that's thus far been said, neither am I discounting the lexicons that have been cited here with regards to Ra. And I took the opportunity to look up many of the verses that have been presented thus far in this thread, and I agree that the Biblical usage of Ra is "evil" in every way that we'd understand evil today. I just have personal curiosities about the fact that the word "Ra" is actually an Egyptian word and not a Hebrew word in it's origins. This probably gets us over into that area where etymology must be taken cum grano salis, or with a grain of salt, because of "usage" being king of the words instead of where they came from. I'm just curious if any of you think that the word when it comes to humans could include the idea of the Jews having wandered into paganism, while from the God-side of the usage of the word if any of you think that the word "Ra" could include any of the "evils" associated with the desert, because "Ra" was the Egyptian monotheistic sun diety http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra)
Paganism was the constant trap of Old Testament Jews and many of the evils, in the form of judgments, that came upon Israel were in the form of droughts, or things related to the desert like scorpions that would sting like a really bad sun burn. One of the final curses of Deuteronomy 28 on the Jews, that some say did happen with the 70AD judgment was that God promised that if they didn't obey Him that He'd send them right back into Egyptian bondage. Do any of the Ras in Scripture, whether from God's side of things, or from man's side of things seem to allow for this etymology in any of your studies? Either from the standpoint of any of the things associated with the Egyptian religion, or as a euphemism for a Jew's former bondage in Egypt? Do any of these evils allow for it to simply be evils of the mind that could be likened to a pagan way of thinking?
This is an area where I've been nervous to look into it too far because of personal apprehensions of spending too much time studying anything associated with an ancient religion that's not Biblically based. Also, I've honestly been really busy with studying other things, although I've had this question in the back of my mind for several years 'cause the etymology was just glaringly obvious, that it's a word that Jews picked up and adapted during their time in Egypt -- if the word itself doesn't go much further back than either Hebrew or Egyptian. Always that question in the back of my mind as to whether Moses's usage of words in the earliest chapters of Genesis are inspired enough to include a few words from "the original language," or whether they were translations on the part of God into something utterable and understandable by Israel. On the chance that someone else has looked into this, with regards to "Ra," I'm asking 'cause a few of you have come across to me as being much more educated than I am about some of these things.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
--Isa 45
Light is 'formed,' but darkness and evil are 'created.'
What does this mean?
"formed"
H3335
יצר
yâtsar
yaw-tsar'
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): - X earthen, fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.
What form are we being molded into by God? Aren't we being molded into 'light' as a potter would shape clay?
Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. --Genesis 2
But what about evil and darkness? God says he 'creates' those. Does he create those by removing his light?
"create"
H1254
בּרא
bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
In this context is God creating evil and darkness by cutting down the form and reducing it to chaos, evil, darkness, and death---its primary and unformed components? Second law of thermodynamics, form devolves to chaos.
Psalm 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
"evil"
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]
A pot that is broken to pieces can no longer carry light.
An "educated opinion" was asked for. This can only be considered one in terms of my having only a very slight idea and understanding of God's workings and His words. IMO, even if Moses "understood the word(s) that way", or even if the Israelites perceived things from a certain perspective, I still have to trust that God is able to get across what He wants expressed to us...that even our limited vocabulary, understanding, and ability to express, still fall under the umbrella of "God working all according to the counsel of His will, and "all scripture is inspired..." even 'ra' :happygrin:. God's blessing, James.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil..
Another interesting thing here is that the sentence seems to be set up as opposites.
first there is light and darkness--those are easily opposites.
but next there is peace and evil.
Is evil the opposite of peace?
From my experience it is.
Again this theme that man will not choose God's rest, thereby bringing judgment down upon himself.
Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
16But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
17One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
18And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.
"evil"
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]
"peace"
H7965
שׁלם שׁלום
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.
Quote from: martincisneros on June 23, 2008, 01:10:02 AM
A question
I just have personal curiosities about the fact that the word "Ra" is actually an Egyptian word and not a Hebrew word in it's origins.
Is the RA in Hebrew actually finding its origins from the Egyptians? The name of the Sun God seems to be more a pronunciation rather than a spelling.
Quote from: jabcat on June 23, 2008, 05:49:30 AM
An "educated opinion" was asked for. This can only be considered one in terms of my having only a very slight idea and understanding of God's workings and His words. IMO, even if Moses "understood the word(s) that way", or even if the Israelites perceived things from a certain perspective, I still have to trust that God is able to get across what He wants expressed to us...that even our limited vocabulary, understanding, and ability to express, still fall under the umbrella of "God working all according to the counsel of His will, and "all scripture is inspired..." even 'ra' :happygrin:. God's blessing, James.
Yeah, I have absolutely no doubts that we have exactly what God's intended for us to have in the Old and New Testaments, though some of it's in a form where like with everything else we've got to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." I was just wondering if anybody else detected a bit of a cultural subliminal there in the choice in wording that would obviously have been more relevant to the ancient world than to ours:
The whole Torah seems written [in a careful ordering of terms and events] to anticipate things. If Adam and Eve hadn't done what they did, then y'all wouldn't have just had 430 years in Egypt having to deal with all of that mess. Why are y'all wanting the quail? You're fussing over what's not yours just like Adam and Eve reached out for what wasn't their's! Since they had a snake to deal with in their rebellion, then all of y'all can drop dead via snakes for your rebellion, etc. Tree of Life in the Garden, then a tree of life in the wilderness with the serpent on the pole. If nobody else has seen that or wondered about a possible
either etymological connection or a deliberate play on words, concerning the word "Ra," then that's fine. I was just curious if anybody had anything on that.
No ra to you :mthumbsup:...I thought Paul's observation was interesting.
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
Quote from: noname on June 23, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
It amazes me that people still see evil and a concrete thing.
willieH: Hello thou nameless one! :laughing7:
Quote from: noname on June 23, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
:omg: Not sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname? :Chinscratch:
PeacE...
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: jabcat on June 23, 2008, 09:41:06 AM
No ra to you :mthumbsup:...I thought Paul's observation was interesting.
And he could be totally right 'cause of the hurdle of a word translated from hieroglyphs and a word written in Hebrew. It's just always been odd to me. Since the real breakthroughs with translating ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs didn't really start coming until the 19th century, the translation of that particular word could have been influenced by Jewish thought if a Jewish scholar was the first one handling the translation of the relevant hieroglyphs, or if on the publication side was having editorial input. I recognized the possibility of a "chicken or the egg" scenario before I asked the question. You just never know if you'll find a conclusive answer one way or the other on some questions until you toss the question out there and wait a few weeks to see who comes by, reads the thread, and posts any relevant info that they've got that gives input, suggestion, or clarification one way or the other.
In my last post I looked at the original meaning of "evil" (Hebrew Ra), connected with making a loud noise, and breaking in pieces. I also concluded that the adversary must have chosen the concept of noise, display, showmanship, and pride as being better then the gentle rest of Father, which is called "good" (Hebrew Tov) suggesting quietness, softness, beauty, and peace
As has been noted, RA was also the name of the egyptians most important god, the sun-god. This kind of worship was clearly forbidden in the law of Moses. Just as any worship of the "heavenly host". I believe the answer comes from the way in which the devil's mind-set has been infused into human affairs right from the beginning.
He is the one who has encouraged man to worship him, by making him think a lot of himself, and by promoting one-upmanship, showmanship, and the love of all things that are "big, grand, superior, stronger, faster, louder, more clamorous, and more insistently drawing attention to one's self."
What is the greatest light in the heavens? It goes without saying. The Sun is clearly the only contender for prime place. And so he presents himself as Ra to the Egyptians, Shamash to the Babylonians, Phoebus Apollp to the Greeks (identical with Helios in legend,) Baal in Canaan, Sol in Rome, Surya to the Hindus, and so on, right across the world to the ancient Incas and Mayas in South America who likewise worshipped the Sun.
How different is that to our Son/Sun of Rightouseness, Who humbled Himself to become a servant taking on our lowly form to draw us back to Father's heart? He did not boast in His Divinity (which He could have had reason to do so- unlike any of his creatures).
Do I believe there are some conections? There certainly are. But to be honest, I would have to study this out far more, and at the moment I am not really interested in this kind of stuff.
Quote from: SOtW on June 23, 2008, 10:08:58 AM
Quote from: noname on June 23, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
It amazes me that people still see evil and a concrete thing.
There are so many evil people in this world--if God wants to chase them into the mountains and make a spectacle of them, that's fine by me. I wish he would do it more often. Is that what God calls 'creating evil'?
King David would often call on him to vanquish his enemies. Was King David praying to the wrong God?
Psalm 11:6
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Quote from: Molly on June 23, 2008, 05:24:29 PM
Quote from: SOtW on June 23, 2008, 10:08:58 AM
Quote from: noname on June 23, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
It amazes me that people still see evil and a concrete thing.
There are so many evil people in this world--if God wants to chase them into the mountains and make a spectacle of them, that's fine by me. I wish he would do it more often. Is that what God calls 'creating evil'?
King David would often call on him to vanquish his enemies. Was King David praying to the wrong God?
Psalm 11:6
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Already explained previously, please re-read the thread for more information. Thanks.
Quote from: AbbasChild on June 23, 2008, 12:44:29 PM
In my last post I looked at the original meaning of "evil" (Hebrew Ra), connected with making a loud noise, and breaking in pieces. I also concluded that the adversary must have chosen the concept of noise, display, showmanship, and pride as being better then the gentle rest of Father, which is called "good" (Hebrew Tov) suggesting quietness, softness, beauty, and peace
I am going to make this as polite as possible, AbbasChild, as I said before, you are
incorrect. It is a matter of record what "ra" means. What you have been doing is a practice is called the Root Word Fallacy.
What is the Root Word Fallacy? I will post two explanations:
"Presupposes that every word actually has a meaning bound up with its shape or its components".
Example: Nice comes from the Latin nescius, which means "ignorant"
Words should not be defined by their etymology but instead by their context and use.
Not all words are referential, a sentence cannot be analyzed into the things each word in the sentence 'names.' It follows that the meaning of words in a grammatically coherent array, as in a, is different from the theoretical referent of each word"-Dr. Fesko HermeneuticsWord studies are popular, easily obtained from available resources, and an easy way to procure sermon content. However, word studies are also subject to radical extrapolations and erroneous applications. It is not always possible to strike exegetical gold by extracting a word from the text for close examination. Word studies alone will not suffice. Indeed, over-occupation with word studies is a sign of laziness and ignorance involved in much of what passes for biblical exposition in our times. While we might decry over-emphasis on philology or etymology, we must recognize that the choice of individual words was significant to the writers of Scripture. It is legitimate for the exegete to ask, "Why did the writer choose this term as opposed to one of its synonyms?" Study of the words alone will not present us with a consistent interpretation or theology. This is one of the misleading aspects of theological dictionaries/wordbooks. Any linguistic aids are virtually useless apart from the author's context. -William D Barrick, Exegetical Fallacies.We are aware that nothing is more unsafe and treacherous than the guidance of etymology. An ounce of usage is worth a pound of it. Etymology is theory, usage is fact. -John Westley HansonNow it is time to address your error. The definition you are providing does not belong to "RA" but "RA'A", both words exist at the time of writing of Scripture. The author of Scripture used "RA" not "RA'A" regardless that the root of "RA" is "RA'A", therefore it must be noted, that the definition of "RA'A" is incorrect because the author used "RA" instead. My rhetorical question is, why do you think that using the 'root word' definition of "RA'A" (not even the primary definitions of "RA'A" by the way) has any relevance to the word "RA"? It doesn't, in the same way that the word 'nice' doesn't mean 'nescius' which means 'ignorance'.
Quote from: AbbaschildThe word is derived from a verb of similar sound (RAA) which, according to Gesenius means "to make a loud noise, or to break in pieces." Hence strictly RA means "a loud noise," or "a smashing sound."
RA'A means "a loud noise," or "a smashing sound.", RA means "evil (moral and ethical)". You continue to perpetrate this error, but there is no way you can defend it. By your own words, do you expose the error. It doesn't matter where the word was DERIVED from, and it does not matter what it is SIMULAR sounding too. What matters is it's usage, and why "RA" and not "RA'A" was used. As you can see, your error causes more problems and perpetrates erroneous thinking.
If you are dedicated to the knowledge of the truth, and want to know what is true, I ask you to quit using the Root Word Fallacy and begin to study what is the truth by error free terms. The first is to throw away your bad study habits.
In Hebrew, the word for bread is "lehem" and the word for war is "milhama." They both share the same root word of "lehem," but these two have entirely different meanings. To force a connection between bread and war, is incorrect and is an injustice to the text. Do not do this! - Stephen Cohen, www.bible.org Another fallacy very close to the Root Word Fallacy is, Semantic Anachronism and Overload Fallacy.
Semantic Anachronism is when we choose a modern usage of a word and replace an ancient usage of the word with the modern definition. Example the root word of DYNAMITE is DUNAMIS, but DUNAMIS does not mean DYNAMITE since DYNAMITE did not come into being until 3000 years after the word DUNAMIS was coined.
Overload Fallacy is where we read into a word any or all of its possible meanings. This is where we really need to let the context rule. We are not free to look up all the possible meanings of a word, and pick from that list the one we like the most. Rather, the context will determine which of those possible definitions is, in fact, the correct one.
Example, you chose the secondary definition of "RA'A" which means "Loud Noise" instead of the primary definition of "RA'A" which means "Evil".
1) to be bad, be evil
. a) (Qal)
. 1) to be displeasing
. 2) to be sad
. 3) to be injurious, be evil
. 4) to be wicked, be evil (ethically)
. b) (Hiphil)
. 1) to do an injury or hurt
. 2) to do evil or wickedly
. 3) mischief (participle)
2) to break, shatter
. a) (Qal)
. 1) to break
. 2) broken (participle)
. 3) to be broken
. b) (Hithpolel) to be broken, be broken in pieces, be broken asunder.
"The heart of the issue – context matters! "Semantics, meaning, is more than the meaning
of words." - D.A. Carson Exegetical FallaciesPlease learn from this mistake to not repeat it. Thanks.
QuoteAlready explained previously, please re-read the thread for more information. Thanks.
Is this a recording? :grin:
Actually, my question was for noname. I didn't set that up right.
Quote from: Molly on June 23, 2008, 06:42:47 PM
QuoteAlready explained previously, please re-read the thread for more information. Thanks.
Is this a recording? :grin:
Actually, my question was for noname. I didn't set that up right.
BEEEP! :cloud9:
Obviously, since you quoted me, nobody would have known. :laughing7: :dontknow:
Hi Craig,
I really appreciate your input. As I said I havn't done much study on this topic latley. And as you probably can also see from my second post, I do agree with you on the basics.
But the thoughts I brought up where not solemnly based upon the wordstudy as you can see when you go back and actually read through my posts.
Because this is a discussion boards where we can share our thoughts I simply try to find a solution for these things in scripture that speak about evil and are hard to understand for myself and many others, and thus reconcile the different statements in it.
Since I don't claim to be a teacher or expert on this matter, I appreciate your input, even though I think it sounded unecessarily angry and harsh.
All I tried to bring forward was a possible solution to a problem many people see in the scriptures and can't find a solution to. So far the question to what it says about Father's character and how to reconcile this with other statements that He can't be tempted by evil etc. has not been answered.
Sometimes I even wonder if these scriptures must be seen in the context of the law of Moses that brought blessings and curses, or peace and evil. Since all the scriptures that seem to imply that evil comes from Father are to be found in the OT.
For this dilema I tried- in my way- to find some answers (which some of them might be wrong, I agree). If I would want to teach people on a certain subject I would not go to a discussion board but prepare myself properly and go out there to the folks Father has placed in my life.
So if you are annoyed about wordstudies maybe we should first start a thread on this subject before you tell everybody that what they are doing is wrong. Because I didn't know that there is supposedly something wrong with this.(Or that you think wordstudies are not valid.)
Posting all the scriptures about Father bringing ra on people doesn't solve the problem either. Unless you deny that this is in contradiction with some other scriptures if you see it as moral evil/sin.
However, since you are not my pastor or something I would appreciate it if you talked to me in a more conversational style, instead of trying to lecture me like a kid.
Since I am actually on a break from the board right now I will stay away here for quite some time anyway. So you don't have to worry that I lead people astray by spreading the horrible heresy that Father is not the Author of sin and moral evil (even though He has certainly a plan for it, which I never denied.) :happygrin:
Quote from: willieH on June 23, 2008, 10:13:01 AM
willieH: Hello thou nameless one! :laughing7:
Quote from: noname on June 23, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
:omg: Not sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname? :Chinscratch:
PeacE...
...willieH :icon_king:
Willi, I'd guess it's exactly as it appears and more...Fortunately, we're no longer doing textual criticism so we can get the discussion back to actual scriptural beliefs.
Quote from: AbbasChild on June 22, 2008, 12:52:51 AM
Just sneaked in here today and saw this topic. One thing that came to my mind is that it doesn't say that Father creates good and evil but peace and 'evil'.
Here is what the hebrew words for good (tov) and evil (ra) originaly meant:
Tov: Good, Soft, Quiet, Gentle, Tender, Rippling (as a Mountain stream,) Kind, Mild, Shy, Humble, Meek, Retiring, Unobtrusive, Unassuming, Tender-hearted, Courteous, Chivalrous, Easily entreated, Employing economy of words.
Ra: Loud, Noisy, Breaking, Crashing (as Niagara in full flood,) Robust, Energetic, Flamboyant, Displaying, Demonstrative, Expressive, Forthright, Brilliant, Unreserved, Exhibiting, Flourishing, Verbose.
Note that none of the words for ra have any relation to moral evil/sin. (Which is missing the mark/or failing. Something we know Father never does.)
In this context I would suggest that the scripture ought to be translated:
I make peace, and I cause (hebr. bara) trouble. I Yahwe do all these things.
maybe it should be that He creates brilliance!!
Hello AbbasChild,
I am going to quote and reply:
Quote from: AbbasChild on June 23, 2008, 09:35:34 PM
I really appreciate your input. As I said I havn't done much study on this topic latley. And as you probably can also see from my second post, I do agree with you on the basics.
But the thoughts I brought up where not solemnly based upon the wordstudy as you can see when you go back and actually read through my posts.
How we interpret and gather information is actually done in a logical and rational sequence. Presupposition, Proposition and Conclusion. Our thoughts derive from the conclusion, and should our conclusion actually be flawed due to a false proposition, our thoughts and our conclusion are flawed. It is like sending the satellites into geosynchronous orbit on earth, in a real life example, one of the first collaborations between USA and Europe in a space program led to a billion dollar disaster, you see they both built perfectly to the specs provided, but they were both using different measurement systems; one metric and the other imperial.
QuoteBecause this is a discussion boards where we can share our thoughts I simply try to find a solution for these things in scripture that speak about evil and are hard to understand for myself and many others, and thus reconcile the different statements in it.
There is no solution in using fallacy and erroneous reasoning to conclude something. The truth requires truth, not lie in order to make a sound conclusion. We must reconcile the facts, not ignore them.
QuoteSince I don't claim to be a teacher or expert on this matter, I appreciate your input, even though I think it sounded unnecessarily angry and harsh.
Unfortunately there is no nice way to tell you that you are wrong, when it comes to facts. Interpreting negative emotion is a false perception. I say this with no condescending attitude. In the same way a person is wrong when they believe 2+2=6 and they base their entire grocery list on this faulty math, is how you are wrong when you commit the Root Word fallacy and the Overload Fallacy concerning the word RA.
QuoteAll I tried to bring forward was a possible solution to a problem many people see in the scriptures and can't find a solution to. So far the question to what it says about Father's character and how to reconcile this with other statements that He can't be tempted by evil etc. has not been answered.
Yes, a possible solution which has been refuted. The problem is people do not understand that God is not a man; therefore His thoughts are not our thoughts. They are unwilling to actually reconcile the facts, and instead rather live nice lives (This is a pun).
QuoteSometimes I even wonder if these scriptures must be seen in the context of the law of Moses that brought blessings and curses, or peace and evil. Since all the scriptures that seem to imply that evil comes from Father are to be found in the OT.
Everything God planned for creation, including the evil God does to creation, is ontologically very good for purpose creation was created. Jesus came and reconciled all creation concerning the evil God does this will end, but His mercy endures forever.
QuoteFor this dilema I tried- in my way- to find some answers (which some of them might be wrong, I agree). If I would want to teach people on a certain subject I would not go to a discussion board but prepare myself properly and go out there to the folks Father has placed in my life.
Yes, and the question remains, if you have been refuted, how can you go and commit to a fallacy (an error) in order to answer their question? By that very reason, I find such things cause more problems than it solves, because they will be faced with someone far more intelligent and educated on linguistics and words, and then everything you ever presented would be in scrutiny and dismissed just as easily. That is why we are called to righteousness.
Quoteo if you are annoyed about wordstudies maybe we should first start a thread on this subject before you tell everybody that what they are doing is wrong. Because I didn't know that there is supposedly something wrong with this.(Or that you think wordstudies are not valid.)
I never said word studies are not valid, I said Root Word Fallacy/Word Study Fallacy is not valid. Perhaps you need to go through the forum again since this is already addressed: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=187.0
QuotePosting all the scriptures about Father bringing ra on people doesn't solve the problem either. Unless you deny that this is in contradiction with some other scriptures if you see it as moral evil/sin.
It absolutely does, since it puts it into context. The same 'RA' God rebukes us for, is the same 'RA' He has taken ownership in creating. Therefore, one cannot mistake 'RA' for 'RA'A' or 'RA'O'.
QuoteHowever, since you are not my pastor or something I would appreciate it if you talked to me in a more conversational style, instead of trying to lecture me like a kid.
The start of this discussion was a conversation, when it grew apparent you were ignoring the facts before you, it turned into an informational style post in which you are now put into a critical thought process. You can choose to make it personal, which is a fallacy and has nothing to do with the discussion, or you can address the points in which you have been refuted and back it up with better explanations or proofs or admit you are wrong or agree to disagree and neither of us continue discussing it.
QuoteSince I am actually on a break from the board right now I will stay away here for quite some time anyway. So you don't have to worry that I lead people astray by spreading the horrible heresy that Father is not the Author of sin and moral evil (even though He has certainly a plan for it, which I never denied.) :happygrin:
There is no heresy in believing 'RA' means, 'clanging noise'. It is just not what it means, nor has it ever meant that. That is all. It is something we can discuss.
Do you or do you not believe God created all things? If you say "yes" your dilemma is solved, now you need to reconcile it.
Quote from: noname on June 23, 2008, 09:56:37 AM
it still amazes me that people would honour a god that creates evil...and even try and justify his actions
Your point of view here is just semantics when it comes right down to it noname.
Do you believe God allows Evil? Do you believe God was surprised by evil in the existence He created?
No matter how someone that makes a comment like you made tries, your view of God will not survive the same moral logic you are trying here.
Hi again...I'll try and explain to each one what I mean...
@WillieH
QuoteNot sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname?
yes I do
QuoteDo you believe God allows Evil? Do you believe God was surprised by evil in the existence He created?
No matter how someone that makes a comment like you made tries, your view of God will not survive the same moral logic you are trying here.
It is pretty obvious that God allows evil...for there is evil in this world...whether He creates it is another matter
also, "morally logically" speaking...I believe in the God Jesus said was his Father...NOT the one of the Pharisees...
that god (whatever you want to call him) is the god of Canaan (Baal)...Creator/Detroyer god...the god of the hindus Shiva...Creator/Detroyer god...the god of the Greeks and Romans Zeus...Creator/Detroyer god...Osiris of the Egyptians....whether his name is Jehovah/Yaweh, Shiva, Baal, Osiris...he is one and the same...he bears the same fruits...that of "good" (Creator) and evil
my Father is Life...not evil which leads to death
@Molly
QuoteKing David would often call on him to vanquish his enemies. Was King David praying to the wrong God?
Nebukadnezzar also called on his god to vanquish his enemies...which was Judah...and they were completely destroyed and taken away...was he praying to the wrong god?
as for David...you must know that NO conclusive evidence in Israel has ever been found of his kingdom or of his son's Solomon...and Solomon was supposed to have been the most wise and most rich and most everything king of all time??? Jewish mythology...ever heard of that?
@ Craig
brother, you're too clever for me being of lowly folk...no need to say anything further
Quote from: noname on June 25, 2008, 01:45:28 PM
It is pretty obvious that God allows evil...for there is evil in this world...whether He creates it is another matter
also, "morally logically" speaking...I believe in the God Jesus said was his Father...NOT the one of the Pharisees...
that god (whatever you want to call him) is the god of Canaan (Baal)...Creator/Detroyer god...the god of the hindus Shiva...Creator/Detroyer god...the god of the Greeks and Romans Zeus...Creator/Detroyer god...Osiris of the Egyptians....whether his name is Jehovah/Yaweh, Shiva, Baal, Osiris...he is one and the same...he bears the same fruits...that of "good" (Creator) and evil
my Father is Life...not evil which leads to death
It is not quite another matter. If God allows evil then there is no moral difference between a creator of evil and a being with the power to prevent evil from existing but continues to allow it to happen. This is especially so when the same God designed existence knowing evil would exist within it in the first place.
So if someone is wanting to play the my God is better than your God game, there is no real distinct difference that can be made.
People will still have the reasoning to justify it because there have been books written about it (I.E Why do bad things happen to Good people), but will that reasoning hold up to scriptural scrutiny or will it be more speculation and opinion?
So to use your own logic, why would someone continue to honor a God who has the power to stop evil, yet he just allows it to continue?
You got it Paul!
QuoteIf God allows evil then there is no moral difference between a creator of evil and a being with the power to prevent evil from existing but continues to allow it to happen.
There was a child crossing the street not looking where he was going and was directly in the path of a truck, at a point of no return. In reach of the child, was two men, one was his parent and another was a stranger.
The parent looks at his child and says, "My child should have looked both ways before crossing the street. Because he disobeyed, I must let the truck hit him and hope for the best." The parent stood, able to save the child but did not.
At the same time, a stranger seeing the truck grabbed the child and pulled him to safety.
When the Day of Light appears, which of these men will receive praise from the Father God?
God is all-powerful. Everything is within His reach, there is nothing outside His control, that includes evil. To allow evil, but not create it, when He is able to prevent it means God is in fact morally and ethically evil. In fact, it is far more problematic for one to say God allows evil in order to remain good because it demonstrates a much deeper evil than realized.
On the other hand, if we say that God does both good and evil, it is He who created it and He would finish it, then we have a God who is ontologically good in nature, and evil is part of the good plan He has for all creation.
Evil is certainly of intrest to me, kind of like a mountain that is just there in front of you. Go around it, over it, under it or through it, its just there. And our thinking can follow this same path, just trying to deal with this " Overwhelming reality", simply produces problems. And the problems with it are real. In Isaiah 40:31;" Yet those who wait on the Lord, will gain New Strength." New is the term that strikes me in this scripture , it does not deny that strength is already there, but it opens up the need for MORE, and the more brings the New. And I think this is what God is doing with Evil, its reality demands more from you. Evil is really a demand from God for more from the human experience.
In cooking often the demand is for more heat, or its just not going to get done. I mean eventually it will get done, but if the heat is applied just right, then it gets done on schedule. Evil is a heat from God to get things done on his schedule. To cook it, as only God could. Its obviously a deadly ingredient, or is it an ingredient, or just the flame to boil the ingredients at the right temperture? And I think that is what dims our view of certain things God has done, or is doing. We tend to look at Evil as an ingredient of the human experience and make our discernments accordingly, trying to figure out the logic of God.
Evil is a Fire from God, as is the Lake of Fire, both intended to cook the ingredients in order to achieve a certain result. One could place their focus on the ingredients and fail to see the fire for what it really is, what its really doing.
Peace.
@Paul:
QuoteIt is not quite another matter. If God allows evil then there is no moral difference between a creator of evil and a being with the power to prevent evil from existing but continues to allow it to happen. This is especially so when the same God designed existence knowing evil would exist within it in the first place.
we just have to go back to Genesis and find the answer...God gave the earth to man as his dominion to rule over it...God gave us everything we needed to do this...and still He gives us a choice between two paths in life...the path of Life and the path of Good & Evil...the path of Life leads to eternal Life...and Good & Evil...Ying & Yang...leads to Death and Destruction
it is not God who created evil on earth, it is man...
Jesus also told us how to rule...not like a tyrant...of which most of all world leaders past and present subscribe to...but to be a servant of mankind and of the animals, the plants and the earth as a whole...to be co-creators of Life...temporal and eternal
Quote from: noname on June 26, 2008, 10:25:52 AM
it is not God who created evil on earth, it is man...
Your wording will not get around what I have already said. Man does commit evil acts, but, man did not create Evil.
The Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil already existed before man knew what evil is. Who Created that?
Gn 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God put this in the midst of man, before man even knew what it was, it was a part of Gods creation.
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.
Where is a verse that is as specific as this for Mans creation of evil? I see that you say "on earth" and I can contemplate what that might mean, if you have a chapter and a verse that states this rather than an interpretation of what scripture might imply in an indirect manner.
No matter the point of view, God is responsible for evil's existance. He created our existance knowing full well what we as humans would do.
If we want to play the game of moral superiority of a view point, there is no moral difference in a Creator that Creates something with the power to create evil knowing it will indeed do that, and creating it directly where man will commit acts of something already in existance.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on June 27, 2008, 11:40:23 PM
The Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil already existed before man knew what evil is. Who Created that?
God put this in the midst of man, before man even knew what it was, it was a part of Gods creation.
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.
No matter the point of view, God is responsible for evil's existance. He created our existance knowing full well what we as humans would do.
If we want to play the game of moral superiority of a view point, there is no moral difference in a Creator that Creates something with the power to create evil knowing it will indeed do that, and creating it directly where man will commit acts of something already in existance.
:goodpost:
Quote from: SOtW on June 26, 2008, 02:32:00 AM
On the other hand, if we say that God does both good and evil, it is He who created it and He would finish it, then we have a God who is ontologically good in nature, and evil is part of the good plan He has for all creation.
:mthumbsup: God is good, all the time...even in His creation of evil. IMO, we can only truly understand this spiritually rather than with our carnal mind...just read today in I Cor. wrt God's wisdom vs. our wisdom. 1:18 For the word of the cross is stupidity, indeed, to those perishing, yet to us being saved it is power of God. For it is written, I shall be destroying the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of the intelligent shall I be repudiating....Does not God make stupid the wisdom of this world?
That's all of us without God's revelation. God's blessing, James.
seems to me the kjv is the weakest in it's literal rendering.
I'm not a linguist and no scholar but from the bit of study it seems amplified and nasv seem to try to use the literal word used.
I'm not saying whos right and wrong but could nasb be right in how they render the text.
Aug
Quote from: auggybendoggy on June 28, 2008, 06:34:56 PM
seems to me the kjv is the weakest in it's literal rendering.
I'm not a linguist and no scholar but from the bit of study it seems amplified and nasv seem to try to use the literal word used.
I'm not saying whos right and wrong but could nasb be right in how they render the text.
Aug
One source I like is www.scripture4all.org, this has a downloadable program. Others may have different sources. I also download the CLV module for that program.
One part of that program shows the literal rendering of the biblical text. It has not been translated for the purpose of easy reading or with a religious bias as far as I can tell.
The clv comes pretty close to following the literal wording and making it pretty easy to read, but no translation is perfect, thats why I love the literal text to refer to.
For studying I will mostly use that and the concordant. if I just want to read things I have already studied and for the time being believe a certain way about. I like reading the elegant text of the KJV.
willieH: Hi ...
"devoid of nomenclature"... :laughing7:
Just havin fun, my noname friend :laugh:
Quote from: noname on June 25, 2008, 01:45:28 PM
@WillieH
QuoteNot sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname?
yes I do
:laughing7: Please forgive
my denseness... but,
Yes I do what? (1)
Yes I do believe there is a God, or
(2)
Yes it do "
not believe there is a God?
PeacE...
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: willieH on June 28, 2008, 10:55:25 PM
willieH: Hi ..."devoid of nomenclature"... :laughing7:
Just havin fun, my noname friend :laugh:
Quote from: noname on June 25, 2008, 01:45:28 PM
@WillieH
QuoteNot sure this is what it appears... do you not believe there is a God ...noname?
yes I do
:laughing7: Please forgive my denseness... but,
Yes I do what?
(1) Yes I do believe there is a God, or
(2) Yes it do "not believe there is a God?
PeacE...
...willieH :icon_king:
yes willie...I DO believe there is a God...but my question to you...do you believe in a righteous, loving God who has only the best planned for his Creation?
I have said this before...I do not believe that the god of the jews...ie Yahweh Elohim is the Almighty...the name Yahweh Elohim denotes a god of gods...Elohim means "gods"...that is plural...so yahweh Elohim means "Yahweh one of the many gods"
I believe in the Father of Jesus as God...never did he make any reference that Yahweh is his Father...go and prove it to yourself
Yahweh has shown himself to be a god of good and evil...and the god of good & evil leads all to death and destruction
Paul Hazelwood implied that Adam & Eve did not know about the choice they were going to make when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good & evil...but they did...God Almighty (El Elohim) told them that...he told them about the forbidden tree which leads to death, and the tree which will leads to everlasting Life...which they could eat from to their heart's content
we have heard Jesus say that the current ruler of this world...the reigning god...is Satan...the "god" man chose to cling to...the god of good & evil...death & destruction...BUT...there is another god whose path leads to Life...and that is exactly what Jesus said he was..."I am the Life and the Ressurection"
so did God Almighty create evil? no...man chose evil and thereby brought it to earth...it was never here until man chose to follow that path, or at least, it never manifested before man chose it...instead of the path of Life...and subsequently the whole creation on earth was subject to death & destruction because of what man did..
we must never see past the fact that it is man who has to put things right on earth and therefore by God Almighty...it is an easy cop-out to put the blame on God and say that He must solve our problems, for we have created them...the earth was given to man as his dominion, and we have to rightly rule it until the King returns...if we do not, we will not be worthy to sit with Him at the banquet table or rule with Him...and His path is the path of Life friends...where no evil can enter or have dominion
I just read your reply noname, nobody said, "God Almighty" created evil. That is an argument you just made up right now. The question was did God create evil.
Quote from: noname on June 30, 2008, 11:01:52 AM
Paul Hazelwood implied that Adam & Eve did not know about the choice they were going to make when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good & evil...but they did...God Almighty (El Elohim) told them that...he told them about the forbidden tree which leads to death, and the tree which will leads to everlasting Life...which they could eat from to their heart's content
I hilighted in red above to point out that I did not at all say that.
I pointed something out based upon your belief that man created evil. You then changed your wording to say they created it on earth. You now change your wording again by saying.
"man chose evil and thereby brought it to earth"
I asked you the question for you to give a verse that states Man created evil that is as specifically worded as the scripture in Isaiah. Can you do this?
I also asked you, Who created the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Will you answer?
Quote
it is an easy cop-out to put the blame on God and say that He must solve our problems
While all this character analysis is cute, the issue is the holy bible and scripture and what the verses say, how they are worded and what they mean.
The scripture in Isaiah says God created evil. Ignoring it does not make it go away.
Quote from: noname on June 30, 2008, 11:01:52 AM
I have said this before...I do not believe that the god of the jews...ie Yahweh Elohim is the Almighty...the name Yahweh Elohim denotes a god of gods...Elohim means "gods"...that is plural...so yahweh Elohim means "Yahweh one of the many gods"
The passage in Isaiah is correctly rendered using only Yahweh. Some Translations use Yahweh Elohim which technically is incorrect, but in light of the Fact that Yahweh is indeed the GOD of all gods then it is still talking about God the Father, the same God who is the Father of Jesus.
Tell me, do you think that Yahweh, the God of gods is not the same God the father? If not you have yourself a blatent contradiction to explain from your own words.
The AV states in Isaiah "I the LORD do all these things"
WHO is this LORD in Isaiah?
Saw this just now in Martin's bio/tag...who could this possibly be talking about except for Father God...evil and good? Not satan or one of his god imposters.
Jer 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Satan who is evil personified (spiritually of course) is under the authority of God, yet he still roams the earth. This fact in it's self should tell us much.
Paul
I understand it, as well as other scriptural examples (Job), to partly tell us that God uses satan for His purposes, including to bring the "iron that sharpens iron" (evil)...is that what you get?
@Paul and other Isaiah/Jeremiah quoters...
I have already stated that I do not believe in the god of the jews...if you're a Christian then talk Christ to me...
let's talk about Christ's Father who is everlasting Life, and in whom there is no evil...or are you going to "disprove" that as well by quoting the prophets of the creator/destroyer god Yahweh?
QuoteSatan who is evil personified (spiritually of course) is under the authority of God, yet he still roams the earth. This fact in it's self should tell us much.
off course...Satan (evil) is the god of this world...and what did Jesus have to say about evil?
last time I checked...He said we must resist evil with our every fibre of being...
now, if Jesus' Father is the god who creates evil as many are saying...then should we resist God?
c'mon people...where's your logic? one cannot love God's "goodness" and resist His "evilness"...you cannot serve two masters...the difference is NOT between good & evil...it is between good & evil and Life...the path God Almighty (El Elyon) wants us to follow is Life...not the good & evil one man has chosen...the OTHER one :thumbsup:
Quote from: noname on July 01, 2008, 03:05:07 PM
@Paul and other Isaiah/Jeremiah quoters...
I have already stated that I do not believe in the god of the jews...if you're a Christian then talk Christ to me...
let's talk about Christ's Father who is everlasting Life, and in whom there is no evil...or are you going to "disprove" that as well by quoting the prophets of the creator/destroyer god Yahweh?
Question noname,
Do you believe the God in Genesis to be a different God than that in Isaiah?
Hi Noname,
Let's look at the New Testament and see how the God of the Jews relates to the God the Father of Jesus.
Here is God of the Jews talked about in Act 3:13
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
Note the God of the Jews glorified his servant Jesus. Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham according to this verse.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
Yep, The God of our (Jewish) fathers raised Jesus from the dead per Act 5:30
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Yes, it all fits as Paul tells us "God the Father" raised Jesus from the dead.
There is only one true God! (John 17:1-3)
Paul
Good stuff Pierac. :happygrin:
7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
--James 4
Quote from: Pierac on July 01, 2008, 06:19:10 PM
Hi Noname,
Let's look at the New Testament and see how the God of the Jews relates to the God the Father of Jesus.
Here is God of the Jews talked about in Act 3:13
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
Note the God of the Jews glorified his servant Jesus. Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham according to this verse.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
Yep, The God of our (Jewish) fathers raised Jesus from the dead per Act 5:30
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Yes, it all fits as Paul tells us "God the Father" raised Jesus from the dead.
There is only one true God! (John 17:1-3)
Paul
all the stewards or students of the Word should go and look who the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is...He made himself known to them as El Shaddai (God of Peace)...NOT Yahweh...Yahweh made himself known to Moses by this name claiming that he was the same god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
further, in most quotes the god of Genesis calls himself Elohim...which means gods...ie plural..."let us make man in our image"...would be a direct translation
furthermore, the names for God in Genesis (before Yahweh)...were Elohim (gods), El Elyon (God Most High) and El Shaddai (God of Peace)...therefore...I state again to my understanding that the god of the jews (Yahweh) is NOT El Shaddai...Yahweh is and was a god of war...I have seen his "fruits"...
so the god of Jesus IS El Shaddai (God of Peace) and NOT Yahweh (ie the god of the jews)...the god of the Pharisees
Quote from: noname on July 11, 2008, 10:48:25 AM
further, in most quotes the god of Genesis calls himself Elohim...which means gods...ie plural..."let us make man in our image"...would be a direct translation
furthermore, the names for God in Genesis (before Yahweh)...were Elohim (gods), El Elyon (God Most High) and El Shaddai (God of Peace)...therefore...I state again to my understanding that the god of the jews (Yahweh) is NOT El Shaddai...Yahweh is and was a god of war...I have seen his "fruits"...
so the god of Jesus IS El Shaddai (God of Peace) and NOT Yahweh (ie the god of the jews)...the god of the Pharisees
Genesis 1.1 - H430 'elohiym el-o-heem'
Genesis 2:4 - H3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' H430 'elohiym el-o-heem'
Isaiah 45:5 - Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else. There is no Elohim except Me. I am belting you, yet you do not know Me.
The main point I am making is the English words that the name of God has been associated with does not define the truth. It is seeing the consistancy of the words in the hebrew are all the same between chapters. Yahweh and Elohim whether used separatly in a verse as it sometimes is, or together in a verse as it sometimes may give us more to think about and discover, but the Hebrew words that have been translated to various names is the same.
The context that I try to gather here is that overall the wording is speaking of the God of gods, the sovereign God that rules over all.
God may be speaking in a plural sense while creating and the context fits just fine, other passages seem to be refering to the God of Gods or who we should worship and give ultimate credit to.
The distinction your making here using english translations cannot be made when seeing the text and context between the Hebrew in Genesis 2:4 and Isaiah 45:5
You can translate something to english to make a point, but the manuscript text does not agree with what your trying to do.
In Exodus 6:3 we read
Ex 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as the El-Who-Suffices; as to My name Yahweh, I was not fully realized by them.
Same God.....
Paul I would have to agree with you the hebrew clearly starts combining the term jehovah and Elohim together in Genesis 2:4,7-9 making it clear that they are one and the same God. The very usage of the one scripture in Exodus that declares him to be El shaddai should put an end to the nonsense that Jehovah is not el shaddai.
Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
The term "God Almighty" in the Hebrew is El Shaddai. Jehovah is the name of El Shaddai.
Absolutely the same God Good stuff paul
Noname I would cordially disagree with you that Jehovah Elohim is another God masquradeing as El shaddai. The hebrew does not support that assumption.
Quote from: martincisneros on June 21, 2008, 03:16:06 AM
The KJV often speaks of judgment as evil, as in the case where God was about to come down hard on Israel and after Moses's intercession it says that God repented of the evil that He was going to bring on them. Contextually, baring this in mind, the book of Isaiah was anticipating the Babylonian captivity of Israel. So, among other possible interpretations, God was speaking of the evil that was in the works for His rebellious, stubbornly unrepentant nation of Israel. This is also an interesting subjective verse to bring up in the light of the current deception that passes for sound thinking on Matthew 25:46: if for any reason and at any time God has created evil, are we to understand that He must always create evil or forfeit being the Creator of Good? And if that's the case, then what evils await us all on the New Earth?
That last question is an interesting one Martin......
Quotewhat evils await us all on the New Earth?
Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil. There is only the tree of Life. Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement. When will the judgement end??
Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ. Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 11, 2008, 05:57:48 PM
That last question is an interesting one Martin......
Quotewhat evils await us all on the New Earth?
Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil. There is only the tree of Life. Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement. When will the judgement end??
Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ. Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.
I've struggled with that question myself, StainedGlass. I like your answer; similar to what I believe about Love, that God created us because Love always requires the "other" to flow. He didn't need us for that, but it fulfilled what He is to do it.
I had never really thought about the fact that only the Tree of Life exists in the New Jerusalem. I knew it was so, but hadn't considered the implications. Now you've got me wondering . . .
In Eden God had two trees, one prohibited, one not. God could have just given Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and it would have been a done deal. No original sin, no need for a savior from that sin . . .
So, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had to serve a purpose. Thinking about it, I believe it may be so that we could learn to love willingly. Much like your idea that Light learns its capabilities by entering into darkness, man learns love (putting others before self) by activating and entering into that evil. Christ came as an example of what that Love should be. He taught us how to eliminate evil by loving God first and others as ourselves.
Once that is learned, the TOKOG&E (and therefore evil itself) would no longer be needed and only one tree remains, which allows us eternal life in God, who is that Love we learned here on earth.
Thank you, SG. What a joy when someone offers you a peek at something that piques your interest and gets you thinking. Much appreciated.
ME
.
Quote from: autoimmune on July 12, 2008, 01:28:59 AM
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 11, 2008, 05:57:48 PM
That last question is an interesting one Martin......
Quotewhat evils await us all on the New Earth?
Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil. There is only the tree of Life. Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement. When will the judgement end??
Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ. Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.
I've struggled with that question myself, StainedGlass. I like your answer; similar to what I believe about Love, that God created us because Love always requires the "other" to flow. He didn't need us for that, but it fulfilled what He is to do it.
I had never really thought about the fact that only the Tree of Life exists in the New Jerusalem. I knew it was so, but hadn't considered the implications. Now you've got me wondering . . .
In Eden God had two trees, one prohibited, one not. God could have just given Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and it would have been a done deal. No original sin, no need for a savior from that sin . . .
So, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil had to serve a purpose. Thinking about it, I believe it may be so that we could learn to love willingly. Much like your idea that Light learns its capabilities by entering into darkness, man learns love (putting others before self) by activating and entering into that evil. Christ came as an example of what that Love should be. He taught us how to eliminate evil by loving God first and others as ourselves.
Once that is learned, the TOKOG&E (and therefore evil itself) would no longer be needed and only one tree remains, which allows us eternal life in God, who is that Love we learned here on earth.
Thank you, SG. What a joy when someone offers you a peek at something that piques your interest and gets you thinking. Much appreciated.
ME
.
....and thank you autoimmune......thank you for sharing your thoughts.....enjoyed reading them. :cloud9:
Quote from: Patrick on July 11, 2008, 05:25:29 PM
Paul I would have to agree with you the hebrew clearly starts combining the term jehovah and Elohim together in Genesis 2:4,7-9 making it clear that they are one and the same God. The very usage of the one scripture in Exodus that declares him to be El shaddai should put an end to the nonsense that Jehovah is not el shaddai.
Exo 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
The term "God Almighty" in the Hebrew is El Shaddai. Jehovah is the name of El Shaddai.
Absolutely the same God Good stuff paul
Noname I would cordially disagree with you that Jehovah Elohim is another God masquradeing as El shaddai. The hebrew does not support that assumption.
Patrick,
if you want to talk hebrew...then learn the correct terms
the hebrew for God Almighty is El Elyon...not El Shaddai...El Shaddai means God of Peace
so...the "God of our Fathers" is El Elyon...God Almighty...the God of Jesus...NOT Yehovah/Yahweh OR Elohim
@StainedGlass
QuoteSome believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ. Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.
there is ONLY one path to Life...the path of Light :Sparkletooth:
Hi Noname
I hope you are having a good day. I am not trying to argue with you there dear noname I would have to disagree with you. Just a simple look at the hebrew of the verse in question, Exo 6:3 will prove that the term defined God almighty by the KJV is el Shaddai
Exo 6:3 And I appearedH7200 untoH413 Abraham,H85 untoH413 Isaac,H3327 and untoH413 Jacob,H3290 by the name of GodH410 Almighty,H7706 but by my nameH8034 JEHOVAHH3068 was I notH3808 knownH3045 to them.
H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."
H7706
שׁדּי
shadday
shad-dah'ee
From H7703; the Almighty: - Almighty.
El Shaddai does not mean God of peace. The Hebrew word for peace dear sir is shalom; which is an entirely different word. I would have more to say but I have to go right now something came up
Excellent thread!
This passage cinches it for me.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
The evil God raised up against David was not just calamity, it was moral evil.
Also, creating evil does not mean doing evil. God raised up evil against David, but it was good for God to do that.
Quote from: bobf on July 16, 2008, 08:35:42 AM
Excellent thread!
This passage cinches it for me.
2 Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
The evil God raised up against David was not just calamity, it was moral evil.
Also, creating evil does not mean doing evil. God raised up evil against David, but it was good for God to do that.
Many people, unfortunately, are too simple minded to understand this concept. God is good God is all powerful and all knowing and evil exists. Therefore evil was created by God for a purpose He made it for. Evil only exists in creation, it does not exist outside of it.
Hi Noname
The phrase the "Most High God" in Gen 14:18 is translated from El Elyon.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
From the Strong's concordance H5945
עליון
‛elyôn
el-yone'
From H5927; an elevation, that is, (adjectively) lofty (comparatively); as title, the Supreme: - (Most, on) high (-er, -est), upper (-most).
Elyon is never translated as almighty.
From the King james concordance on e sword H5945
עליון
‛elyôn
Total KJV Occurrences: 78
high, 36
Gen_14:18-20 (3), Gen_14:22, Num_24:16, Deu_26:19, Deu_28:1, Deu_32:8, 1Ki_9:8, 2Ch_7:21, 2Ch_23:20, 2Ch_27:3, Neh_3:25, Psa_7:17, Psa_9:2, Psa_21:7, Psa_46:4, Psa_47:2, Psa_50:14, Psa_57:2, Psa_73:11, Psa_77:10, Psa_78:17, Psa_78:35, Psa_78:56, Psa_82:6, Psa_83:18, Psa_91:1, Psa_91:9, Psa_92:1, Psa_97:9, Psa_107:11, Isa_14:14, Jer_20:2, Lam_3:35, Lam_3:38
most, 25
Gen_14:18-20 (3), Gen_14:22, Psa_7:17, Psa_9:2, Psa_21:7, Psa_46:4, Psa_47:2, Psa_50:14, Psa_57:2, Psa_73:11, Psa_77:10, Psa_78:17, Psa_78:56, Psa_82:6, Psa_83:18, Psa_91:1, Psa_91:9, Psa_92:1, Psa_107:11, Isa_14:14, Lam_3:35, Lam_3:38, Dan_7:27
upper, 8
Jos_16:5, 2Ki_18:17, 1Ch_7:24, 2Ch_8:5, 2Ch_32:30, Isa_7:3, Isa_36:2, Eze_42:5
higher, 5
2Ki_15:35, Psa_89:27, Jer_36:10, Eze_9:2, Eze_42:5
highest, 3
Psa_18:13, Psa_87:5, Eze_41:7
uppermost, 1
Gen_40:17
I humbly suggest that you go back and study the names of God because you have missed the reality of scripture, and unfortunately substituted your opinion in place of the word of God.
QuotePatrick,
if you want to talk hebrew...then learn the correct terms
the hebrew for God Almighty is El Elyon...not El Shaddai...El Shaddai means God of Peace
so...the "God of our Fathers" is El Elyon...God Almighty...the God of Jesus...NOT Yehovah/Yahweh OR Elohim
The God of our Fathers is Jehovah according to scripture.
Exo 3:13-15 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them,
The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? (14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The
LORD God of your fathers,[/u] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Here is the KJV with strong numbers for verse 15
Exo 3:15 And GodH430 saidH559 moreoverH5750 untoH413 Moses,H4872 ThusH3541 shalt thou sayH559 untoH413 the childrenH1121 of Israel,H3478 The LORDH3068 GodH430 of your fathers,H1 the GodH430 of Abraham,H85 the GodH430 of Isaac,H3327 and the GodH430 of Jacob,H3290 hath sentH7971 me untoH413 you: thisH2088 is my nameH8034 for ever,H5769 and thisH2088 is my memorialH2143 unto all generations.H1755 H1755
The term LORD God In the Hebrew in verse 15 is Jehovah Elohim Please take the time to actually look it up in the strong's concordance and you will see that I am speaking the truth.
Patrick,
While there can be some debate about which Hebrew word is what name of God. It sort of depends upon how someone is approaching it.
El Shaddai Is the hebrew pronunciation. Noname defined El Shaddai as (God of Peace)
Which may not be wrong, but Strongs simply has the definition of Shaddai as "The Almighty"
The God of peace is a view of God in context with the passage that it appears in. So, thats not necessarily wrong.
The issue here is redirection from the point. The verse in Exodus clearly contradicts a view that Yahweh and El-Shaddai are not the same God.
We might be able to enter into a debate about what name of God in Hebrew or Greek means what in english but that does not change the fact that all those names are in biblical reference to the same God.
With that said, I also think the verse in exodus is very intriguing and it may explain why noname does not believe that God created Evil.
Noname, do you have an explaination from your view point concerning Exodus 6:3?
willieH: Hi Mary... :hithere:
Once again Mary, I speak not against you, but against some of the things you suggest below in YOUR WORDS... no offense is intended... :friendstu:
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 11, 2008, 05:57:48 PM
That last question is an interesting one Martin......
Quotewhat evils await us all on the New Earth?
Perhaps in the New Earth there is neither good nor evil. There is only the tree of Life. Where Good and evil reside there is always a Judgement. When will the judgement end??
Some believe that Good cannot exist without evil.......and light cannot be Light without darkness......but I beg to differ. Light has always been Light, but it had to enter into darkness to know what It was capable of.
Quote from: autoimmune on July 12, 2008, 01:28:59 AMI've struggled with that question myself, StainedGlass. I like your answer; similar to what I believe about Love, that God created us because Love always requires the "other" to flow. He didn't need us for that, but it fulfilled what He is to do it.
First you say that LOVE ALWAYS REQUIRES the "other" TO FLOW, ...then you say He didn't NEED us for that???? And that it FULFILLED HIM to be what HE IS to do it??? In other words GOD was UNFULFILLED until creating MEN...
That whole statement is filled with contrary thoughts... the "other" is required yet "not needed"... that it fulfilled Him to create US, and not HE, us... asserting a VOID in the eternal GOD, that MEN filled... :faint:
MEN are FINITE, bound within the confines of TIME, subject to CONTINUOUS CHANGE... NOW always IS... GOD's Love has ALWAYS "flowed" otherwise... a CHANGE occured in Him... and in your suggestion states that prior to the "creation of men", God's LOVE did not "flow", needing (or not needing???) MEN for that "flowing" to occur... :scratchhead:
There is no where (to my knowledge - show me if there is) in the Bible where it says GOD created MEN in order for His love to "flow"...
Angelic beings (some are mentioned - cherubim, seraphim, archangels) are Eternal as are Sons... GOD created MEN (vessels of Dishonor) to give His SONS (vessels of Honor) the knowledge of Good and Evil... and they could NOT eat of the TREE of LIFE
until they had this knowledge... For the TREE of LIFE has this knowledge and
in part IS this knowledge...
(Matt 4:4) Man shall not live by BREAD
ALONE, but BY every
word that PROCEEDETH out of the mouth of GOD
Quote from: autoimmune on July 12, 2008, 01:28:59 AMI had never really thought about the fact that only the Tree of Life exists in the New Jerusalem. I knew it was so, but hadn't considered the implications. Now you've got me wondering . . .
In Eden God had two trees, one prohibited, one not. God could have just given Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and it would have been a done deal. No original sin, no need for a savior from that sin . . .
First... there were MANY Trees in the Garden not just
TWO, as evidenced by the word EVERY: (Gen 2:16)
Second... We must define what the "TREE of LIFE" actually IS... It is the WORD of GOD... It is a SPIRITUAL TREE not a "physical" one...
The TREE of LIFE is
JESUS CHRIST who said: I am the
VINE, ye are the branches = body (John 15:1-5) He also said: I am the way the truth and the
LIFE (John 14:6)
Interestingly, there is only ONE CENTER POINT to anything. Yet the "tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" is mentioned as IN the MIDST (center)... and the "tree of LIFE" is also mentioned as IN the MIDST (center)... either they are part of the SAME entity, or BOTH are in the center, one being PHYSICAL and one SPIRITUAL... (really not sure nor decided on this, give me your take!)
Third... your
SPECULATION above, is NOT viable because it
IS NOT WRITTEN, meaning it is your thought NOT the thought of GOD which is that which,
IS WRITTEN...
What
IS WRITTEN is what
IS, and
IS what occured because it
IS WRITTEN...
No such thing as ORIGINAL SIN, no "God" coulda, woulda, shoulda... He is an UNCHANGING entity... and there is only ONE scenario in which HE
IS... and THAT is what occured in the Garden, ...no other possibilities suggested by sinful, mortal human beings
"could have" occured...
Mal 3:6 I am the
YHVH, ...I CHANGE NOT...
His WORD does not CHANGE either...
Heb 13:8
JESUS CHRIST, the SAME yesterday, today and forever.
Neither "becomes" anything rather ALWAYS
IS, ...Neither is other (alternate scenarios as you infer above) than what He
IS...
And is the
TRUTHFUL basis upon which we can DEPEND and find SECURITY, eternally.
peacE...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: SOtW on July 16, 2008, 10:10:32 AMMany people, unfortunately, are too simple minded to understand this concept. God is good God is all powerful and all knowing and evil exists. Therefore evil was created by God for a purpose He made it for. Evil only exists in creation, it does not exist outside of it.
Good point. You can prove it logically based on God's onmiscience, omnipotence, and the existence of evil, and you can prove it from scripture.
Hey Craig,
I'd be interested in hearing how you 'resolve' the two statements that
1. God creates evil (e.g. moves David to number Israel which was sin)
2. God does not tempt man
I know how I (think I) resolve them, but I'd be interested in your viewpoint.
Thanks,
Bob
Quote from: bobf on July 17, 2008, 12:42:42 AM
Hey Craig,
I'd be interested in hearing how you 'resolve' the two statements that
1. God creates evil (e.g. moves David to number Israel which was sin)
2. God does not tempt man
I know how I (think I) resolve them, but I'd be interested in your viewpoint.
Thanks,
Bob
1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.
2. God does not tempt man, but God tests all mankind. Deut 13:1-5.
1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
--Deut 13
Isn't this how the Pharisees/Sanhedrin justified calling for the death of Jesus?
Quote from: SOtW on July 17, 2008, 08:06:44 AM1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.
2. God does not tempt man, but God tests all mankind. Deut 13:1-5.
I agree with what you wrote, but I'm not sure it fully addresses what I was looking for. Let me ask it another way.
How did God manage to
move David to number Israel without
tempting David to number Israel in a way that would break this passage?
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do you think scripture teaches that...
1. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin?
2. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin, even knowing that we will succumb to sin?
Quote5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Thank you Molly! You have summed up the whole "evil god" thing...why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?
You have thus confirmed through Scripture that He does not want anything to do with evil according to genesis...and warns man to flee from it...Jesus said exactly those same words...that we should resist evil and flee from it
QuoteEl Shaddai Is the hebrew pronunciation. Noname defined El Shaddai as (God of Peace)
Which may not be wrong, but Strongs simply has the definition of Shaddai as "The Almighty"
i once saw that Shaddai and Shalom have the same hebrew root word...which translates to peace
QuoteThe phrase the "Most High God" in Gen 14:18 is translated from El Elyon.
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
"Almighty" and "Most High" sounds pretty close to the same to me?
Good one the quote about Melchizedek...who was the king of Peace (Salem...which is the same as Shalom)
we also know that if we follow Jesus, we are following in the footsteps of the Melchizedekian order...the order of peace...there can be no peace where evil is present...the picture Jesus gave us of the new Jerusalem...ie the new "city of Peace", is one without evil...that is what we have to strive for and what our purpose is on earth, to help establish the Kingdom of Peace and Righteousness...not going back to an era of evil...God's wish was NEVER for us to be enslaved to evil...as Molly already pointed out
@Craig
your little inuendos roll off like water brother...I think it is you that is simpleminded to think that God still lives in the past and does not want a better future (without evil) for his children...that was the whole point of Jesus' life and teachings...a better New Earth...we as mankind also have a responsibility to "prepare the bride" for the King's coming again when He will marry "the bride that is without spot or blemish"...can we say that the "bride" is currently ready for Him? NO...the bride has been whoring herself with war and destruction...with greed and corruption...all "in the name" of the bride...the bride has become an abomonation to Him...only by seeking and living in Peace and Righteousness would the bride cleanse herself of all her evil and be ready for her wedding to the King of kings...
from Genesis again:
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that
the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
These verses are further proof to me that man is the creator of evil on earth...not God...for God was grieved in his heart when He saw that man's "thoughts of his heart" were only evil...
Hi noname, I certainly understand the difficulty in wanting to see a good and loving God in light of passages that appear to be otherwise. In my own walk I had to come to a point that if I was going to bother getting to know this god that I was compelled to believe in then I had to understand the difficult process that can be. We can play games with words to avoid it, we can ignore scripture, we can claim it says something but does not mean what it says, but none of that really digs into the truth as deeply as we think.
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AM
Quote5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Thank you Molly! You have summed up the whole "evil god" thing...why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?
The logic assumes that God only created something you think is good. You can say it sounds a bit skitso that he would create evil, but that is simply shifting the starting point of a point of view.
I'd say it sounds a bit demented, using your logic, that God would even create a being knowing it was going to create evil in the first place (this assumes your logic is sound).
Quote
You have thus confirmed through Scripture that He does not want anything to do with evil according to genesis...and warns man to flee from it...Jesus said exactly those same words...that we should resist evil and flee from it
No one is doubting that, that conclusion in no way prevents God from creating evil.
Did man create the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
Quote
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
These verses are further proof to me that man is the creator of evil on earth...not God...for God was grieved in his heart when He saw that man's "thoughts of his heart" were only evil...
So, was God somehow oblivious that his creation was going to do this?
Do you not see a greater perspective here than the point your trying to make? Thats the problem with people who just cannot accept scripture in context with the purpose of something. You think up opinions that sound logical, ask questions that appeal to emotion but use scripture in ways that contradicts other scripture.
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things.
You can say that you do not believe in this God, well, that doesn't matter. You have yet to explain Exodus 6:3 in light of your opinion.
Please cite a verse that is as specific to the creation of evil by man as this verse in Isaiah is and then we can talk about why there would appear to be a contradiction.
If we take the logical route, it is simply the best news there is that God knew all of this from the start. He is in such supreme control that it all works out for our benefit in the end. That nothing happened that was not intended to happen, and that because God is inherantly Love then there is no other reason for anything that happens.
One day we will see.
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AM
Quote5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Thank you Molly! You have summed up the whole "evil god" thing...why would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?
It wasn't Molly, pay attention the the discussion. She just posted the Scripture I just posted previously.
Quote from: bobf on July 17, 2008, 08:38:07 AM
Quote from: SOtW on July 17, 2008, 08:06:44 AM1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.
2. God does not tempt man, but God tests all mankind. Deut 13:1-5.
I agree with what you wrote, but I'm not sure it fully addresses what I was looking for. Let me ask it another way.
How did God manage to move David to number Israel without tempting David to number Israel in a way that would break this passage?
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do you think scripture teaches that...
1. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin?
2. God puts us in situations that pressure us to sin, even knowing that we will succumb to sin?
The same way God hardened the heart of Pharoah to continue to sin, or how He gives the spirit of stupor to those who reject the knowledge of God and they go deeper into sin, etc.
Quote from: SOtW on July 16, 2008, 10:10:32 AM
Therefore evil was created by God for a purpose He made it for. Evil only exists in creation, it does not exist outside of it.
I agree.....and IMHO evil is only a part of the creation process, but the end result will be the removal of all evil, which is a reversal of the fall.
And what we'll have are many Lights....no longer separated by darkness/evil....together as One. Face to face with our Father. :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Craig... :hithere:
:goodpost:
Quote from: SOtW on July 17, 2008, 08:06:44 AM
1. God creates evil. Compared to good, evil is the only thing that is created and formed. Genesis 1 and 2 says looking at all of creation, including evil (the knowledge of good and evil presupposes evil was during or prior to the creation of earth), God called it very good. The logic behind this, is not that evil is every good in itself, this is how people get confused. Evil as part of creation, is very good for the purpose in which it was created. It is ontologically very good.
Very good brother! This is exactly how I see it!
It is Very good, because it's end prompts praise of
YHVH and His Son
JESUS CHRIST, in all beings of God...
You make a wonderful observation above... "GOOD" did not have to be "created" for it
IS the state of ALMIGHTY
YHVH...
God in His wonderful wisdom, by creating EVIL has shown to ALL observing and participating beings, ...that IT not only opposes Who and What He
IS, but ESTABLISHES the
vision of Who and What He
IS... which is Eternally HOLY and GOOD... and above all, LOVE, ...and which has been firmly displayed by the creation and
temporary (time) manifestation of EVIL...
peacE...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AM
God's wish was NEVER for us to be enslaved to evil...as Molly already pointed out
If GOD never "wished" (I find it hard to believe God "wishes" for anything") EVIL NEVER to be manifest... which is the ENSLAVEMENT of MEN... then WHY did He create it Noname? And WHY were Adam & Eve given the ABILITY to disobey? And WHY was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world?
These things CLEARLY show that there was INTENTION in the "creation" of EVIL, and that IT was CLEARLY a portion which prohibited
YHVH from being ALL in ALL (1 Cor 15:28), or ...for
that which is KNOWN to
KNOW as it is
KNOWN... (1 Cor 13:12)
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AMfrom Genesis again:
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
I'd like to address this quotation...
We are not ALONE in our suffering, brother noname... :grouppray:
GOD is LONGSUFFERING (Rom 9:22-23)
with us... :friendstu: The above quotation you make above, is a
report of that LONGSUFFERING.
GOD did not observe and "repent", as do MEN, ...of what He did! :omg:
He
knew what was going to
"take place" LONG BEFORE it
"took place". And GOD does NOT CHANGE... repentence is an act of
CHANGE, ...containing a REGRET for something done... and desire for REVERSAL...
To observe these verses as stating this makes God look like He is playing games with Himself... and that what He did, ...
KNOWING... beforehand its outcome, was a BAD IDEA... :mshock: ...You are welcome to embrace it if you choose (and I do not condemn you in any way for it)... But there is NO WAY that I shall agree with such thinking...
As GOD is watching us go through all this, it is VERY Heart-wrenching for Him! Do you have children?
I can tell you that, when my daughter's heart got broken a few times as she grew up... mine SURELY broke with hers... GOD is no different as a parent.
As His Children (necessarily) suffer, ...it STILL, even though His PURPOSE is done in that suffering, ...is no easier for Him to observe, than was my observation of my daughters broken heart...
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AMThese verses are further proof to me that man is the creator of evil on earth...not God...for God was grieved in his heart when He saw that man's "thoughts of his heart" were only evil...
GOD's Word says HE created EVIL... (Is 45:7)... Man did not create EVIL... otherwise many Scriptures are compromised such as (Col 1:16-17)
MAN
involved himself in EVIL by disobeying the Command of GOD... but he did not BRING into existence (which is what "create" means)... the PRINCIPALITY of EVIL...
He simply put into manifestation, the PRINCIPALITY of EVIL... a
premise which was ALREADY there within the
KNOWLEDGE of
YHVH (Gen 3:22) :dontknow:
Displaying by that manifestation, OPPOSITION to GOOD, which is inherently the state in which
YHVH, ...IS...
And BOTH Good and Evil, find ROOT in the SAME TREE... (Gen 2:17) which was in the MIDST of the Garden... the
center of Paradise.
peacE...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AMwhy would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?
I don't think it does.
God sent evil to Job.
God led Christ to be tempted by evil Satan.
So there you have two examples where God
purposely wanted righteous men to be sujbected to evil and yet to resist the very evil God placed them in. If God
purposely wants righteous men to endure and overcome evil, doesn't there need to be evil?
Quote from: bobf on July 17, 2008, 10:24:38 PM
If God purposely wants righteous men to endure and overcome evil, doesn't there need to be evil?
I do not know if that is a good way to phrase it. The rebuttal answer to this would be to know the real thing, one does not need experience a counterfeit. A person can spot a counterfeit not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the real thing. Therefore a righteous man can endure and overcome evil without ever experiencing evil. The proposition that evil exists, still exists and I think that is what you are getting at. A driving force to know the real thing, is because counterfeits are out there. So we are back to the question of this thread, who created evil?
These are the four propositions which Christians confess to truth:
1. God is Good.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all knowing
4. Evil exists.
There is only one answer, which has already been given by myself and a few others, in which all these four propositions remain consistent and true.
Quote from: noname on July 17, 2008, 10:27:31 AMwhy would God tell us to flee from evil when He is the creator of it? it sounds a bit scytso does it not IF He at all is the creator of evil?
A plow is made to tear up the ground in order to loosen the earth so that seeds can receive air, moisture and be able to break through to grow. It serves a purpose. If I created a plow to plow the field and tell you to stay out of the field and run away from the plow when you see it coming should you be in the field... it is not because I am scytso, it is because it was created for a purpose and I do not want you hurt in the process.
Ecclesiastes 7:18It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.
Quote from: SOtW on July 17, 2008, 10:47:34 PMI do not know if that is a good way to phrase it. The rebuttal answer to this would be to know the real thing, one does not need experience a counterfeit. A person can spot a counterfeit not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the real thing.
But I'm not talking about spotting and recognizing evil. I'm talking about experiencially resisting evil and overcoming evil. God gave Job an experience of evil. God could have shown Job a movie about it, and Job could then have spotted good vs. evil, but it would not have been the same thing.
So I do believe that to know evil (intimately) one must experience it. For example.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
QuoteTherefore a righteous man can endure and overcome evil without ever experiencing evil.
I don't see how. Enduring evil implies experiencing evil.
QuoteThese are the four propositions which Christians confess to truth:
1. God is Good.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all knowing
4. Evil exists.
There is only one answer, which has already been given by myself and a few others, in which all these four propositions remain consistent and true.
The usual rebuttal to the above is free will. God wanted men to freely love Him, so God had to give us free will else we'd be robots. So even knowing that free will would bring evil, God had no real choice in the matter since He wanted us to freely love Him. Then we abused our free will and created all the evil and God created none of it. It's a God-hand-washing technique.
I agree Bobf.......
Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand.
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 17, 2008, 11:34:42 PM
I agree Bobf.......
Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand.
Thanks... I've never heard that one before, but it rings true!
QuoteSo I do believe that to know evil (intimately) one must experience it.
I'm beginning to think you are right. Somehow, people don't seem to be able to see evil when they are doing it themselves. It's like they have no empathy at all. Compassion and empathy seems to be a Christ like characteristic that is acquired by evil being done to you.
People seem to be, left to their own devices, morally blind, without remorse or compassion.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. --Isa 53
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
--Psa 103
Quote from: bobf on July 17, 2008, 11:28:31 PM
Quote from: SOtW on July 17, 2008, 10:47:34 PMI do not know if that is a good way to phrase it. The rebuttal answer to this would be to know the real thing, one does not need experience a counterfeit. A person can spot a counterfeit not by studying the counterfeit, but by studying the real thing.
But I'm not talking about spotting and recognizing evil. I'm talking about experiencially resisting evil and overcoming evil. God gave Job an experience of evil. God could have shown Job a movie about it, and Job could then have spotted good vs. evil, but it would not have been the same thing.
So I do believe that to know evil (intimately) one must experience it. For example.
Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Exactly. I was playing the advocate. That is how we, as human beings, receive the knowledge of good and evil, through experience. The rebuttal to this is, why did God make us this way?
QuoteQuoteTherefore a righteous man can endure and overcome evil without ever experiencing evil.
I don't see how. Enduring evil implies experiencing evil.
Exactly. Once again I was playing the advocate. There is always a presupposition which states that to know evil, we do not need to experience it. Why do we need to endure evil? Because we are not all powerful. Why do we need to overcome evil? Because we are not all knowing. We are not God.
Quote[QuoteThese are the four propositions which Christians confess to truth:
1. God is Good.
2. God is all powerful
3. God is all knowing
4. Evil exists.
There is only one answer, which has already been given by myself and a few others, in which all these four propositions remain consistent and true.
The usual rebuttal to the above is free will. God wanted men to freely love Him, so God had to give us free will else we'd be robots. So even knowing that free will would bring evil, God had no real choice in the matter since He wanted us to freely love Him. Then we abused our free will and created all the evil and God created none of it. It's a God-hand-washing technique.
Free will is involved in the answer, it is not the answer completely. If we have a will, it is free within the habitation and boundaries God had made it. We are not all power nor are we all knowing. Since God is all power and all knowing and evil exists and our current workings of how we attain, retain and understand knowledge is in our being, means God had intended it's creation and therefore created it.
Quote from: SOtW on July 18, 2008, 01:34:01 AMExactly. I was playing the advocate. That is how we, as human beings, receive the knowledge of good and evil, through experience. The rebuttal to this is, why did God make us this way?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Make us what way? Do you mean limited, such that we must experience evil in order to gain an intimate knowlege of it?
Perhaps there is no other way. Suppose God snapped his fingers and we instantly obtained an complete and intimate experiencial knowlege of evil and of the overcoming evil. Wouldn't that be just like experiencing and overcoming evil?
This scripture is interesting:
Isaiah 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
Sounds like God experiencing evil along with us.
QuoteExactly. Once again I was playing the advocate. There is always a presupposition which states that to know evil, we do not need to experience it. Why do we need to endure evil? Because we are not all powerful. Why do we need to overcome evil? Because we are not all knowing. We are not God.
And God being all knowing, He must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, I think.
QuoteFree will is involved in the answer, it is not the answer completely. If we have a will, it is free within the habitation and boundaries God had made it. We are not all power nor are we all knowing. Since God is all power and all knowing and evil exists and our current workings of how we attain, retain and understand knowledge is in our being, means God had intended it's creation and therefore created it.
I've said this before - I don't much like the term 'free will'. I see no reason not to use the less ambiguious terms 'will' and 'choice'. I have difficulty understanding any statement someone makes using the term 'free will' because I have experienced too wide a variation in the way people use the term. To some people 'free will means 'the ability to choose'. To others it means 'a will that is free from God's shaping'. IMO the former view is scriptural, while the latter view is idolatry of man's will.
But yes, evil exists, God is omnipotent & omnicient, so God intended it.
QuoteI'm not sure I understand the question. Make us what way? Do you mean limited, such that we must experience evil in order to gain an intimate knowlege of it?
Exactly, and since we ARE made this way, then this is how God intended it. Otherwise, He is not God at all and not our Creator.
QuoteAnd God being all knowing, He must have an experiencial knowlege of evil, I think.
Since He is the one who created it in the first place, I agree with you and very much believe He has experienced it. However in what capacity is not for us to know, nor would we understand. It is quite irrelevant to us in the first place.
QuoteI've said this before - I don't much like the term 'free will'. I see no reason not to use the less ambiguious terms 'will' and 'choice'. I have difficulty understanding any statement someone makes using the term 'free will' because I have experienced too wide a variation in the way people use the term. To some people 'free will means 'the ability to choose'. To others it means 'a will that is free from God's shaping'. IMO the former view is scriptural, while the latter view is idolatry of man's will.
I say this kind and gently, that is something you need to get over.
Here is the universal, theological & philosophical, definition of 'Free-will' even among those who do not believe there is a God.
"Free Will" is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. -Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
It goes on to say that there is Free-will and Free-action, and we do not have Free-action since most all the choices we make are outside our control to accomplish.
Most who deny it, means they do not understand how the adjective is used, and continue to use the word 'free' independent of the noun phrase along with a presupposition which is not always found in the term 'free-will' which is self-determination. Free-fall, is still a fall and the adjective of 'free' dependent upon the noun 'fall' and therefore everything that applies to falling, applies to free-falling. Free-will, is still a will and the adjective 'free' is dependent upon the noun 'will' and therefore everything that applies to a will, applies to a free-will and that includes manipulation, guidence, over-ruling, etc. Free-will is just the type of will a human being has; now the type of Free-will we have been contested by everyone.
It doesn't matter what others say, what matters is what is true.
I have found Free-will if the will is free, is only free within the habitations and boundaries God set up. We are not all powerful and we are not all knowing, adding the adjective 'free' does not make us all powerful and all knowing. Free-will just means we have the ability to make a choice when one is presented, that is called a freedom of will, not a will that is free outside influence or it's environment or it's limitations.
I know this is a problem for some, but changing it's definition isn't going to make it any less true.
Craig
QuoteSounds like God experiencing evil along with us.
I believe this to be true....
IMHO experiencing evil means experiencing separation from God.
What does this mean to you......God experiencing separation from God??
To me it sounds like the encounter of the Father and Son at the cross.
7 Be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him;
do not fret when men succeed in their ways,
when they carry out their wicked schemes.
8 Refrain from anger and turn from wrath;
do not fret—it leads only to evil.
9 For evil men will be cut off,
but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.
10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.
11 But the meek will inherit the land
and enjoy great peace.
12 The wicked plot against the righteous
and gnash their teeth at them;
13 but the Lord laughs at the wicked,
for he knows their day is coming.
14 The wicked draw the sword
and bend the bow
to bring down the poor and needy,
to slay those whose ways are upright.
15 But their swords will pierce their own hearts,
and their bows will be broken.
16 Better the little that the righteous have
than the wealth of many wicked;
17 for the power of the wicked will be broken,
but the LORD upholds the righteous.
18 The days of the blameless are known to the LORD,
and their inheritance will endure forever.
19 In times of disaster they will not wither;
in days of famine they will enjoy plenty.
20 But the wicked will perish:
The LORD's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields,
they will vanish—vanish like smoke.
21 The wicked borrow and do not repay,
but the righteous give generously;
22 those the LORD blesses will inherit the land,
but those he curses will be cut off.
23 If the LORD delights in a man's way,
he makes his steps firm;
24 though he stumble, he will not fall,
for the LORD upholds him with his hand.
25 I was young and now I am old,
yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken
or their children begging bread.
26 They are always generous and lend freely;
their children will be blessed.
27 Turn from evil and do good;
then you will dwell in the land forever.
28 For the LORD loves the just
and will not forsake his faithful ones.
They will be protected forever,
but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;
29 the righteous will inherit the land
and dwell in it forever.
--Psa 37
Psalm 10:15
Break the arm of the wicked and evil man; call him to account for his wickedness that would not be found out.
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 18, 2008, 06:27:24 PM
QuoteSounds like God experiencing evil along with us.
I believe this to be true....
IMHO experiencing evil means experiencing separation from God.
What does this mean to you......God experiencing separation from God??
To me it sounds like the encounter of the Father and Son at the cross.
And Adam and the LORD God in the garden.
Where are you?--Genesis 3
..the lamb slain from the foundation of the world..
--Rev 13
Perfect scriptures Molly!
Picture what it might look like to see God separating from God.......probably looks a lot like mitosis....
Quote from: SOtW on July 18, 2008, 08:41:31 AMI say this kind and gently, that is something you need to get over.
No problem, Craig. But I don't see why I should ignore something that hampers communication.
QuoteHere is the universal, theological & philosophical, definition of 'Free-will' even among those who do not believe there is a God.
"Free Will" is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. -Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
That may be the official definition, but that's not how ~50% of the people I encounter use the term. My compaint is not about what is true our not true. My compaint is that the term as used in the real world causes miscommunication.
Here is one definition I found on the web.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
Our choices are not unconstrained by divine will in the sense that:
1. God applies pressure to cause us to change our choices.
2. God alters our wills which in turn alters our choices.
QuoteIt doesn't matter what others say, what matters is what is true.
It matters when I'm trying to communicate with someone. I have to know what
they mean by 'free will' not what the true definition is.
It would be like in mathematics if SQR(x) is officially defined as the square-root of X, but then somewhere along the line people started using SQR(x) to mean X squared. Once that happens, it doesnt matter what the official definition is. If I want to get the right answer I have to ask what they means by SQR(x).
QuoteI have found Free-will if the will is free, is only free within the habitations and boundaries God set up. We are not all powerful and we are not all knowing, adding the adjective 'free' does not make us all powerful and all knowing. Free-will just means we have the ability to make a choice when one is presented, that is called a freedom of will, not a will that is free outside influence or it's environment or it's limitations.
I realize 'free' in front of 'will' does not make us all powerful or all knowing. But I've never seen anyone who thinks that. What I have seen is that people think the 'free' in front of 'will' means our wills off-limits to God.
Lately, instead of bothering over the term 'free will' I just ask for a definition up front. But often that doesn't work either. Often I get a definition like 'ability to choose' that I agree with, the later in the discussion they'll object to God doing such and such as a violation of free will, when such and such does not remove the ability to choose.
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 18, 2008, 08:04:28 PM
Perfect scriptures Molly!
Picture what it might look like to see God separating from God.......probably looks a lot like mitosis....
So that one can become two? And, then the two become one again.
So they are no longer two, but one.--Mark 10
Quote from: Molly on July 18, 2008, 01:15:20 AMI'm beginning to think you are right. Somehow, people don't seem to be able to see evil when they are doing it themselves. It's like they have no empathy at all. Compassion and empathy seems to be a Christ like characteristic that is acquired by evil being done to you.
People seem to be, left to their own devices, morally blind, without remorse or compassion.
Yes, except sometimes, our own evil actions can open our eyes too. If we act without compassion or empathy toward others, that will often come back to bite us in disasterous ways, and that can open our eyes too.
- Christ endured the evil of others.
- The prodigal son endured the fruits of his own evil and that woke him up.
Quote from: Molly on July 18, 2008, 08:11:35 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on July 18, 2008, 08:04:28 PM
Perfect scriptures Molly!
Picture what it might look like to see God separating from God.......probably looks a lot like mitosis....
So that one can become two? And, then the two become one again.
So they are no longer two, but one.
--Mark 10
So what is the purpose of all this separating and reuniting? Could it be for us to experience love.....over and over again?
Remember the old saying -- Distance makes the heart grow fonder?
How true!
Could be. You mean to fill the universe with God's love?
Genesis 15:5
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as to many; but as of one, And, to thy seed, which is Christ.
--Galatians 3
QuoteYou mean to fill the universe with God's love?
Yes!
The One in many, and the many in One. :HeartThrob: