Getting swarmed in a debate

[WhiteWings]

Maybe you can post a rough outline. Perhaps with a few verses.
Often I read UR:
- skips judgement
- pagans enter heaven

[LS]

to Melito in the second century CE, the Wisdom of Solomon was considered canonical by Jews and Christians. The Hebrew version of the Wisdom of Solomon is also mentioned by Ramban (1194-1270 CE) in the preface to his commentary on the Torah. He also quotes from the book.

wow.  I just discovered that book.  I quoted from it on here recently.  I was wondering why it would have not been put in our Bible.  What I've read in there is beautiful.

I'm not sure if you mean the same book, but Wisdom of Solomon is one of the deuterocanonical books in the Catholic Bible. You may also like Sirach, if you like Wisdom. Those are two of my favorite books. You will find them back-to-back on this link: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml#wisdom

I haven't read this entire thread, but I would encourage all of you to consider how you like to be treated when people come to Tentmaker and want to "teach" you.  Nobody likes to be misled about someone else's purpose; nobody likes to have others preach but not also listen thoughtfully.  I think everyone appreciates a personal response, give & take discussions.

:2c:

[LS]

They are the ones missing out, and they are not ready to chew on the meat of universal salvation.

To me UR looks more than milk. It's easy. It's logical.
But if I see the linguistic acrobatics ETs have to use to force fit their puzzle pieces...

But see, WhiteWings ... to me it appears US also has to rely on linguistic acrobatics.  I'm just sayin, being honest.   :mblush:

I've said many times I think that any person ought to be able to hear or read the Bible without the use of concordances and deeper study tools - simply read what's there - and know Truth.  And while I see how you all get to US using all of those tools and translation devices, it takes a lot of work to get there, in my opinion.

I'm just trying to explain why I don't think people are necessarily illogical or stubborn when they hear your messages ... I think they can be very open and honest and still disagree.

[WhiteWings]

They are the ones missing out, and they are not ready to chew on the meat of universal salvation.

To me UR looks more than milk. It's easy. It's logical.
But if I see the linguistic acrobatics ETs have to use to force fit their puzzle pieces...

But see, WhiteWings ... to me it appears US also has to rely on linguistic acrobatics.  I'm just sayin, being honest.   :mblush:

:winkgrin: well there are far better acrobats...

I've said many times I think that any person ought to be able to hear or read the Bible without the use of concordances and deeper study tools - simply read what's there - and know Truth.

I disagree because I think the only way to understand the Bible is to read the originals with the mind/cultural background of people that lived 2000 years ago.
Every translation is an interpretation

And while I see how you all get to US using all of those tools and translation devices, it takes a lot of work to get there, in my opinion.

But why? Many say because UR is of the devil. I say because of flawed translations. The only reason I use a concordance is to get as close to the originals as possible.
Take for example "destruction" that's a perfectly simple word. The problem is that the Bible wasn't written in English.

I'm just trying to explain why I don't think people are necessarily illogical or stubborn when they hear your messages ... I think they can be very open and honest and still disagree.

I see you as one of those people.
It took the HS a few minutes to convert Saul; but my guess is it will take hours for the people on teh forum Lego is posting on.

[Nathan]

NOt to split hairs WW, but it wasn't a few minutes for poor ol Saul . . .the guy was blind for 3 days . . .a lot of demolition had to transpire in the guy before he could truly proclaim that all the knowledge he obtained through the teachings of men, all his past credentials he compares the value to the same as a pile of . . .crap.

And to be honest, whether it's on the other forum or this one, I think we all are within an arms reach of an arm load of crap, and should the mood strike us, there are times where we're all guilty of striking others with that crap . . .we call it doctrine, belief systems, personal POVs even, but in the end, if we elevate our thinking above relationship with each other, the manna we once embraced as fresh meat becomes rotten and full of maggots.

I'm still planning on getting on over there . . .but expectations are not very high at all.  Not looking for an argument, but simply attempting to share same "idea" that Tent represents, just from a different angle, but my head is telling me it's not going to matter.  But for some reason, I just can't walk away from the idea of at least trying.

[shawn]

I posted something on this thread earlier today and for some reason, it didn't take.  I've been over on the other thread a couple times, haven't been following the trojan approach today yet though, I tried to rejister last week but it ddin't let me be activated, never got the emial that apparently explains how to activate yourself.  I pmed one of the not-so-aggressive mods and they said the sysem was waiting for email conformation  . . . so today I tried under a different name with a different email . . .problem there 'now" is, the emial I gave them is my home email and I can't access that from here so I gotta wait.

Either way, even though I greatly appreciate the hearts of those who are active over there and I shared with you the above information so you can see I to, am still interested in chatting over there as well.  But I'm not sure the direction this is going is all that healthy . . .it may be no big deal really, but for me, playing the devil's advocate in such a format as what is happening over there now seems just a bit  . . .I don't know . . .dishonest?  They aren't too receptive with the aproaches by those who have been open about their position, I'm not so sure puposefully concealing true identity for the benefit of attempting to advance hidden agendas is the best way to go with this either.  what happens when they figure it out? 

For something as great and powerful as this position in the cross is, it feels just a bit off the road for how God works in our lives.  He didn't come to us in hidden form with this message of liberation, for them to come into the fulness of truth, is deception the most effective way to introduce it?  No condemnation, just sharing where I am with ya is all.

Be careful.

I have to agree.  The ends does not justify the means.  We plant some seeds, some will grow and some will fall along the rocky ground.  We should do so with honesty and love.  When assaulted we turn the other cheek, forgive, and bless those who persecute us.  I'm not even sure we should defense unwarranted comments about our salvation.  The blood of Christ is our defense.  When I felt myself being effected by the threads, I left.  I can't be effective if I am working in the flesh.

[shawn]

NOt to split hairs WW, but it wasn't a few minutes for poor ol Saul . . .the guy was blind for 3 days . . .a lot of demolition had to transpire in the guy before he could truly proclaim that all the knowledge he obtained through the teachings of men, all his past credentials he compares the value to the same as a pile of . . .crap.

And to be honest, whether it's on the other forum or this one, I think we all are within an arms reach of an arm load of crap, and should the mood strike us, there are times where we're all guilty of striking others with that crap . . .we call it doctrine, belief systems, personal POVs even, but in the end, if we elevate our thinking above relationship with each other, the manna we once embraced as fresh meat becomes rotten and full of maggots.

I'm still planning on getting on over there . . .but expectations are not very high at all.  Not looking for an argument, but simply attempting to share same "idea" that Tent represents, just from a different angle, but my head is telling me it's not going to matter.  But for some reason, I just can't walk away from the idea of at least trying.

I love that thought of relationship over doctrine.  We all agree that salvation comes through the blood of Christ.  That alone should unify his people.  But, the flesh, natural thinking, and carnality brings division among us where we forget one of the two most important commandments.  Love thy neighbor as thyself.

[Paul Hazelwood]

NOt to split hairs WW, but it wasn't a few minutes for poor ol Saul . . .the guy was blind for 3 days . . .a lot of demolition had to transpire in the guy before he could truly proclaim that all the knowledge he obtained through the teachings of men, all his past credentials he compares the value to the same as a pile of . . .crap.

And to be honest, whether it's on the other forum or this one, I think we all are within an arms reach of an arm load of crap, and should the mood strike us, there are times where we're all guilty of striking others with that crap . . .we call it doctrine, belief systems, personal POVs even, but in the end, if we elevate our thinking above relationship with each other, the manna we once embraced as fresh meat becomes rotten and full of maggots.

I'm still planning on getting on over there . . .but expectations are not very high at all.  Not looking for an argument, but simply attempting to share same "idea" that Tent represents, just from a different angle, but my head is telling me it's not going to matter.  But for some reason, I just can't walk away from the idea of at least trying.

Many over there present the same false reasoning as we can hear from any side of an argument.   They as can others present themselves as being representatives of God, so therefore everything they say is according to the true word of God.

So any "idea",  any idea at all, that is not in agreement with what they believe is asserted as being against the word of God.

  This site is not immune to that fallacy I have encountered  and observed it here.  I have encountered it in every church I have ever been in.  I am not immune to it as I can start to believe the same way, but it is false.

Nathan is correct, and  I wonder how the impression of having truth from our point of view will be met with anyone from that site gaining membership here and reading this thread about them?

[shawn]

NOt to split hairs WW, but it wasn't a few minutes for poor ol Saul . . .the guy was blind for 3 days . . .a lot of demolition had to transpire in the guy before he could truly proclaim that all the knowledge he obtained through the teachings of men, all his past credentials he compares the value to the same as a pile of . . .crap.

And to be honest, whether it's on the other forum or this one, I think we all are within an arms reach of an arm load of crap, and should the mood strike us, there are times where we're all guilty of striking others with that crap . . .we call it doctrine, belief systems, personal POVs even, but in the end, if we elevate our thinking above relationship with each other, the manna we once embraced as fresh meat becomes rotten and full of maggots.

I'm still planning on getting on over there . . .but expectations are not very high at all.  Not looking for an argument, but simply attempting to share same "idea" that Tent represents, just from a different angle, but my head is telling me it's not going to matter.  But for some reason, I just can't walk away from the idea of at least trying.

Many over there present the same false reasoning as we can hear from any side of an argument.   They as can others present themselves as being representatives of God, so therefore everything they say is according to the true word of God.

So any "idea",  any idea at all, that is not in agreement with what they believe is asserted as being against the word of God.

  This site is not immune to that fallacy I have encountered  and observed it here.  I have encountered it in every church I have ever been in.  I am not immune to it as I can start to believe the same way, but it is false.

Nathan is correct, and  I wonder how the impression of having truth from our point of view will be met with anyone from that site gaining membership here and reading this thread about them?

:thumbsup:

I have certainly been rebuked in this area.  It's so easy, especially while under attack to turn offensive or defensive.  It's so easy to want to prove "I am right, and you are wrong".  I have been guilty of placing this value system above relationships with others more times than I can count.  Let our gentleness, kindness, and our love for others be our fruit.

[Molly]

I love that thought of relationship over doctrine.  We all agree that salvation comes through the blood of Christ.  That alone should unify his people.  But, the flesh, natural thinking, and carnality brings division among us where we forget one of the two most important commandments.  Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Makes you wonder how these guys did it.


10 We are fools for Christ. But you are so wise in Christ! We are weak. But you are so strong! You are honored. But we are looked down on! 11 Up to this very hour we are hungry and thirsty. We are dressed in rags. We are being treated badly. We have no homes. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When others call down a curse on us, we bless them. When we are attacked, we put up with it. 13 When others say bad things about us, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the world's garbage. We are everybody's trash.
--1 Cor 4

[Nathan]

There was more going on there than just trying to sell a doctrine.  Not only was there a drive in Paul that no man could stop, but there was a power carrying him that would not be denied.  He willingly took on all those hardships so God's freedom could be experienced by those whom he crossed paths with.  He wasn't trying to peddle religion or a mindset.  He lived "in" what he was sharing out.  It sustained him, it enabled him to take on the condemnation and beatings.  So much so that even as he was sitting in prison, worship rose out of him . . .to the point that prison bars, locked by others, were opened and he went out a free man.  May we embrace the source and not the man.

When we find ourselves butting heads, may we see that it's not the "person" that we're butting heads against, but it's a mindset they are being influenced by.  It's a prison that they're in that is trying to imprison us.  But it's not the indiviual.  If they don't want you to let them out, then don't.  Seasons always change . . .the time will come when they'll be hungry for life to be planted in them . . .should we maintain a cordial relationship when it is winter, we'll have a field ready for the seed in the spring.  If we cut them off due to the coldness, when the season changes, we'll end up with no field at all.

Paul planted in fields that were ready  and he discerned fields that weren't, but he still love wth God's love, all who would listen.

[shawn]

I love that thought of relationship over doctrine.  We all agree that salvation comes through the blood of Christ.  That alone should unify his people.  But, the flesh, natural thinking, and carnality brings division among us where we forget one of the two most important commandments.  Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Makes you wonder how these guys did it.


10 We are fools for Christ. But you are so wise in Christ! We are weak. But you are so strong! You are honored. But we are looked down on! 11 Up to this very hour we are hungry and thirsty. We are dressed in rags. We are being treated badly. We have no homes. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When others call down a curse on us, we bless them. When we are attacked, we put up with it. 13 When others say bad things about us, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the world's garbage. We are everybody's trash.
--1 Cor 4

Terrific passage Molly.  I think that should be an example to us all who believe outside of mainstream Christian doctrine.

[Nathan]

It would appear that I've finally gotten in over there . . .I stared at the text box for a bit before choosing to wait.  My work day here is over.  But tomorrow should be an interesting day.

[legoman]

It would appear that I've finally gotten in over there . . .I stared at the text box for a bit before choosing to wait.  My work day here is over.  But tomorrow should be an interesting day.

Good luck Nathan.  I've been so busy with work and family this week that I haven't had time to post over there since Sunday.  It takes time to type up a reasoned response.  I keep reading what they post and think of all these things that need to be said, but I just know in the back of my mind that I will get sucked into another never-ending back and forth.  If they don't want to listen, it doesn't matter what you say.  So waiting is good.

Your post above is so right - if the field is not ready, it is not ready.  The seed will grow another day - its up to God's timing not ours.

Having said that, I will probably try to post there tonight.

[legoman]

Well I see Ilene Wright from city-data joined up - so this should be entertaining if nothing else, assuming she doesn't get banned right away.

Question:  who is "flamingHedge" and "spiffy"?  Anyone from here?  Spiffy is already banned after 15 posts. !

[jabcat]

not here currently, not sure about past - unless they're here now under different names..

let's hope spiffy goes by something else for sure, especially that he has a different real name  :laughing7:

[Samuel Cripps]

FlamingHedge posts at CityData.  I recruited him and Ilene and Scott (pneuma) and some others over there).  :laughing7:

[Samuel Cripps]

Oh, and they are inquiring as to why this thread has been moved out of sight of nonmembers.

[WhiteWings]

Oh, and they are inquiring as to why this thread has been moved out of sight of nonmembers.

Tell them they can only see the milk threads  :winkgrin:

If you recruit enough it will become City Data overthere  :icon_jokercolor:
My guess is that they will bad UR completely in a short while.

[WhiteWings]

not here currently, not sure about past - unless they're here now under different names..

let's hope spiffy goes by something else for sure, especially that he has a different real name  :laughing7:

He must be from around here. Lot's of holy smoke here :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Someone please adress the "You shall not surely die" argument.

And for Titus: Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous

[WhiteWings]

Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice, and they know me and they follow me." That's who the good shepherd goes after if He loses one. He doesn't go after a sheep that belongs to someone else. He goes after His own.

John 10:16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

That leaves the goats. That will be much harder to explain. Unless they simply are young sheep. But that even harder for them to agree on. (if true at all....) :winkgrin:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/the_sheep_and_goat_8659.msg104622.html#msg104622
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/the_sheep_and_goat_8659.msg104631.html#msg104631

[WhiteWings]

James you made it into their Hall of Fame.
You got your own thread: http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3790

[Samuel Cripps]

Legoman,

I see that Sissy is claiming that the word 'incorruptible' does not connote sinlessness. She is, of course, dead-wrong.

1Cor. 15:43 "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"

The imortal body is associated with glory and power.

1Cor 15:54    So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The immortal body is associated with deathlessness, which implies union with God, for death is the state of separation from God.  This same thought is echoed in 2 Tim. 1:10, where Paul associates immortality with the destruction of death.  Immortality is what we are given by God through Christ's work on the Cross.  Needless to say, Christ didn't die in order that people may live in sin forever!

Rom 2:7   To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The immortal body is associated with glory and honor and eternal life, and we know that eternal life consists in knowing God (John 17:3).

[Samuel Cripps]

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46156&postcount=39

For crying out loud, won't someone point out to HansC that believing that Christ will succeed in His mission to save all that he died for is not a Satanic belief!  LOL