Getting swarmed in a debate

[Molly]

Tell them they can't understand yet because it's a secret! :happygrin:


9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

"mystery"

G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.


[of his] "will"

G2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

--Eph 1

[WhiteWings]

Legoman,

Please address this nonsense.

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45205&postcount=125

As I reread the account in Acts, Paul did not see Jesus at that moment on the Damascus Road. What he saw was a brilliant light that instantly blinded him; he was knocked from his horse; and he HEARD a voice that asked, "Why are you persecuting Me?" Instantly, even as he asked the question, Paul knew who he was talking to because he asked, "Who are You, Lord?" Those with him saw the light and heard a noise like thunder, but not a voice.

Paul did see Jesus, but that was after his conversion when he was in the desert apparently being directly instructed in the faith by the Holy Spirit.

Just a question.
Why is it of any importance? Both are supernatural. The main point isn't sound or vision but instant forced conversion. And that forced conversion is a big bonus for the UR defender.
It's nice to know, but what good does it do for the position of the ET, ED or UR?

[Molly]

Universalism teaches that you can sin all you want and when you die, come into the kingdom of Heaven.

This is an objection to UR that I keep hearing over and over again.  It's a misperception [I hope].  It needs to be addressed and corrected right from the start. [sales 101].

[WhiteWings]

Sorry, your position isn't scriptural.
  Quote:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [/t][/t]  Quote: Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [/t][/t] Once people are in the LoF, how do they get faith? They have the evidence right there. Faith comes by hearing... are there going to be Bible classes for the lost souls? Tell me how your scenario works. WW: What are Jesus and His angels testing in LoF. A list with verses + an article showing God=Fire: http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=Fire.htm Lego, show me one verse in the bible where the lake of fire is being used for testing/purification purposes. YLTRev 14 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb, Tormented βασανίζω basanizō Thayer Definition: 1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal ==> WW just like a refiner does. 2) to question by applying torture 3) to torture 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5) to be harassed, distressed 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G931 Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96

[Samuel Cripps]

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3775

Universalism Threads READ THIS!
All threads pertaining to the false doctrine of Universalism have been moved to a sub-forum in the Cults and Other Religions forum. No more threads or posts regarding Universalism will be allowed in any other forum.
Any attempts to promote Universalism beliefs in any other area of the forums will be subject to deletion, and disciplinary action.

LOL.  Lame.  Next they'll ban the subject altogether.

[Samuel Cripps]

HansC on Universalists:

A real bunch of sugar-coated sweethearts, piping a merry tune, as they lure unsuspecting souls to eternal perdition. What amazing love, willingly promoting a doctrine of devils, seeking to thwart the work of Christ, and doing it all with a seared conscience.

Hopefully, you will wake up some day, and smell the stench of the goat herd you follow before it really is too late.

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45420&postcount=277

Good grief.

[WhiteWings]

^YLTMatt 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that--I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

[Samuel Cripps]

Legoman,

there has been a great deal of confusion concerning what you meant when you said that John 3:18 is 'moot'.


Please, for sanity's sake, clear this up!

[Samuel Cripps]

lol, nevermind, lego!  I see now where you cleared that up.  I hope they are not still unclear on your meaning.

[WhiteWings]

Please give URL.
Would be a good thread for Scott/Pneuma. I remember him driving Matt Slick insane :winkgrin:

[Samuel Cripps]

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3777


Keep in mind that I really do believe aionios means eternal, even in the hell texts.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3777


Keep in mind that I really do believe aionios means eternal, even in the hell texts.

Welll... nobody is perfect :laughing7:
Seems Roy likes you. I gave you a happy smilie :)

[Cardinal]

With great power comes great responsibility.

Let's say I adopt a cat. He is supposed to pee in the litter box. However, since he's in a new environment and with a new owner, the chances are that at first, he sometimes takes a pee elsewhere. Now, the cat's understanding of things is a lot more limited than mine. In that light I'm obliged to cut him some slack. If I, after finding out the cat had peed on my carpet, grabbed him by tail and swung him against the wall time after time until he died, excusing my actions with "He was free to choose. He could've chosen to pee in the litter box. He disobeyed." everyone would probably call me a monster.

:cloud9: Please, it hurts when I laugh...... :laughing7:

And sadly, this about sums up their reasoning. Tell me, if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, how exactly does death prevent Him from saving all?

[WhiteWings]

Like gold I would say :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

With great power comes great responsibility.

Let's say I adopt a cat. He is supposed to pee in the litter box. However, since he's in a new environment and with a new owner, the chances are that at first, he sometimes takes a pee elsewhere. Now, the cat's understanding of things is a lot more limited than mine. In that light I'm obliged to cut him some slack. If I, after finding out the cat had peed on my carpet, grabbed him by tail and swung him against the wall time after time until he died, excusing my actions with "He was free to choose. He could've chosen to pee in the litter box. He disobeyed." everyone would probably call me a monster.

:cloud9: Please, it hurts when I laugh...... :laughing7:

And sadly, this about sums up their reasoning. Tell me, if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, how exactly does death prevent Him from saving all?

Death is no longer an enemy that kills saints. Now it's a friend that kills sinners. The dead sinners are not really dead. They are alive but every day they die even more, but never become really dead.

I always hoped a mod of a Christian forum would know about such simple uncomplex Bible truths.... But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you are ill. :icon_queen:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

Maybe a little off-topic but not to much I think is that I recently am coming a little towards the believe that words like Aion and Aionian are over analyzed. I long expected it but now I have strong proof the first 3 (or more) books were written in Hebrew. Maybe we are fighting to much over words in perhaps not divinely inspired translations. And that automaticly leads to unresolveble conflicts. Dunno :dontknow:

:cloud9: Just tippy-toeing  :hijacked: off topic with you a little bit......read this today.......looks like you can add 4 books to your list......wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican has all the original Hebrew books in their archives.......

"New Discovery from WNAE (Hebrew Origin of Wisdom of Solomon) Well I have an important new discovery to report concerning the Apocrypha and specifically the Wisdom of Solomon. According to Melito in the second century CE, the Wisdom of Solomon was considered canonical by Jews and Christians. The Hebrew version of the Wisdom of Solomon is also mentioned by Ramban (1194-1270 CE) in the preface to his commentary on the Torah. He also quotes from the book.

We can now be certain that the Wisdom of Solomon was originally written in Hebrew and that the original Hebrew survived until at least 1611. For this I must acknowledge David Katcher for providing us with an important tip. The original 1611 edition of the King James Version has a marginal note to the word "pricked" in Wisdom of Solomon 16:11 (yes that it's the verse, and yes it is ironic) which says "Hebr. stung."

From this we know that the KJV translators had the original Hebrew of this book in their hands. (Likewise they also had the now lost original Hebrew of 1st Esdras which has several of these references to readings of the Hebrew.)

Now the Greek of Wisdom 16:11 has enekentronto "they were pricked" (KJV, Brenton)
or "they were bitten" (RSV, NEB) (the NAB has "they were stung"). Now this word can be translated "stung" (as in the NAB) but it can also be translated "pricked" as the KJV translators chose to translate in the main text. The footnote indicates that that original Hebrew does in fact have a word meaning "sting" and not "prick" here. The KJV footnote would indicate that the original Hebrew word was PARASH (Strong's 6567) the only Hebrew word for "sting" (as we see it in Prov. 23:32).

Now the Aramaic Pecrapta translator must have misread PARASH (Strong's 6567) "sting" as PARASH (Strong's 6566) "to break in pieces". The Aramaic Pecrapta translator thus wrongly translated PATZAIT "split, opened".

The Aramaic has mistranslated the original Hebrew word, and therefore could not have been translated from the Greek. This means that our Aramaic Pecrapta version is an Aramaic translation made directly from the Hebrew. Since these are cognate languages with much vocabulary and grammar in common, the Aramaic translation gives us a much better witness as to the original Hebrew than does the Greek. And were it not for this one marginal note made by the original 1611 KJV translators, we would not have this proof that the Aramaic was translated directly from the Hebrew rather than from the Greek.

Conversely the mistranslation of this word in the Aramaic Pecrapta proves the veracity of the KJV marginal note."

:cloud9: OK, CARRY ON...... :laughing7:

[Nathan]

I posted something on this thread earlier today and for some reason, it didn't take.  I've been over on the other thread a couple times, haven't been following the trojan approach today yet though, I tried to rejister last week but it ddin't let me be activated, never got the emial that apparently explains how to activate yourself.  I pmed one of the not-so-aggressive mods and they said the sysem was waiting for email conformation  . . . so today I tried under a different name with a different email . . .problem there 'now" is, the emial I gave them is my home email and I can't access that from here so I gotta wait.

Either way, even though I greatly appreciate the hearts of those who are active over there and I shared with you the above information so you can see I to, am still interested in chatting over there as well.  But I'm not sure the direction this is going is all that healthy . . .it may be no big deal really, but for me, playing the devil's advocate in such a format as what is happening over there now seems just a bit  . . .I don't know . . .dishonest?  They aren't too receptive with the aproaches by those who have been open about their position, I'm not so sure puposefully concealing true identity for the benefit of attempting to advance hidden agendas is the best way to go with this either.  what happens when they figure it out? 

For something as great and powerful as this position in the cross is, it feels just a bit off the road for how God works in our lives.  He didn't come to us in hidden form with this message of liberation, for them to come into the fulness of truth, is deception the most effective way to introduce it?  No condemnation, just sharing where I am with ya is all.

Be careful.

[Molly]

to Melito in the second century CE, the Wisdom of Solomon was considered canonical by Jews and Christians. The Hebrew version of the Wisdom of Solomon is also mentioned by Ramban (1194-1270 CE) in the preface to his commentary on the Torah. He also quotes from the book.

wow.  I just discovered that book.  I quoted from it on here recently.  I was wondering why it would have not been put in our Bible.  What I've read in there is beautiful.

They aren't too receptive with the aproaches by those who have been open about their position, I'm not so sure puposefully concealing true identity for the benefit of attempting to advance hidden agendas is the best way to go with this either.  what happens when they figure it out? 

Good point.  People don't like being played the fool.  It could backfire.

My introduction to UR before I came here was on Christian websites via PM.  In the first, they were discussing the LoF in classic Christian terms, and someone came to me in instant message and said, 'A lake has shores.'  I've never forgotten that lol.

The second time, I was laboring away talking to myself in my own thread on a Christian website and someone PM'd me about Tentmaker and invited me over.  They sent me two videos to look at.  One was by an old man who said he had studied the Bible for 40 years, and was convinced everyone was going to be saved--and that was the GOOD news.  The other was by one of the usual people--maybe Ray Smith?  Both videos made a big impression on me.

So maybe that is the way to reach people, lurk and pm those who seem to be seeking.  It is at least one good way to do it--changed my life. :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

Molly . . .I do believe you may be on to something there . . .personal communication/relationship . .. cast out the nets toward the center of the pond, but use the bait for those who are hungry for it.  Hmmm . . .

[Samuel Cripps]

Well I didn't last long.  They banned me again.  This time they banned my IP, so I can't view the forums.  Is there any way around that?

I should have been more shrewd.

[legoman]

I posted something on this thread earlier today and for some reason, it didn't take.  I've been over on the other thread a couple times, haven't been following the trojan approach today yet though, I tried to rejister last week but it ddin't let me be activated, never got the emial that apparently explains how to activate yourself.  I pmed one of the not-so-aggressive mods and they said the sysem was waiting for email conformation  . . . so today I tried under a different name with a different email . . .problem there 'now" is, the emial I gave them is my home email and I can't access that from here so I gotta wait.

Either way, even though I greatly appreciate the hearts of those who are active over there and I shared with you the above information so you can see I to, am still interested in chatting over there as well.  But I'm not sure the direction this is going is all that healthy . . .it may be no big deal really, but for me, playing the devil's advocate in such a format as what is happening over there now seems just a bit  . . .I don't know . . .dishonest?  They aren't too receptive with the aproaches by those who have been open about their position, I'm not so sure puposefully concealing true identity for the benefit of attempting to advance hidden agendas is the best way to go with this either.  what happens when they figure it out? 

For something as great and powerful as this position in the cross is, it feels just a bit off the road for how God works in our lives.  He didn't come to us in hidden form with this message of liberation, for them to come into the fulness of truth, is deception the most effective way to introduce it?  No condemnation, just sharing where I am with ya is all.

Be careful.

Hi Nathan, I agree with you.

I as well don't think pretending to be something your not is the right approach.  It is a bit deceptive - and even if the point you are making out of it is valid it could undermines your whole position if you are dishonest in your delivery.  There is a difference if you are playing devil's advocate, but you have to be careful with deception.  Be careful Samuel...

I'm not sure how much longer I will be posting there, probably till I get banned.  Posting in a forum that is classified for cults is not really worth it.

...

Oh... I see you just got banned again Samuel.  Sorry... but perhaps it is time to move one. 

And really what is the point of posting there?  Sure there may be a few lurkers, but the conversations are basically between the mods and a few fry-hards - there is no reception there at all.  God will open their eyes at another time.  If any lurker is truly interested, they will google and search out the concepts.

I will continue for now- and say what I need to say -until it degrades into repetition/personal attack/banning.

But if they keep kicking you out, I say let them be.  We can't force them to believe.  They are the ones missing out, and they are not ready to chew on the meat of universal salvation.

[WhiteWings]

Well I didn't last long.  They banned me again.  This time they banned my IP, so I can't view the forums.  Is there any way around that?

I should have been more shrewd.

http://proxify.com/
http://hidemyass.com/
http://www.web300.info/
http://proxy.org/

[WhiteWings]

They are the ones missing out, and they are not ready to chew on the meat of universal salvation.

To me UR looks more than milk. It's easy. It's logical.
But if I see the linguistic acrobatics ETs have to use to force fit their puzzle pieces...

[legoman]

They are the ones missing out, and they are not ready to chew on the meat of universal salvation.

To me UR looks more than milk. It's easy. It's logical.
But if I see the linguistic acrobatics ETs have to use to force fit their puzzle pieces...

Indeed.  UR is logical.  But you can't convince a mind who thinks 2+2=5.