Getting swarmed in a debate

[legoman]

I managed to sign up over there, just pondering how to proceed.  I have a busy week (I'm on course), so I won't have much time to post for now.

Its funny my first attempt at registering was banned too - it said my email address was banned!  LOL I don't know why my personal home email address would be banned - unless they got it from bibleforums.org (where I was banned for posting).  Sigh... anyways I used an alternate email, registered with the "777" extension thing, and it worked ok.

But the thread turned very bad.  Samuel, I think you should have just laid out your case, summarize all the scripture that supports UR.  Unfortunately the questioning, accusing and bantering back and forth is not productive.  Accusations back and forth with no substance on the topic.

May post later - getting tired now.

[Samuel Cripps]

Thanks, lego.

I'm all about having genuine discussion.  I'm all about dialog. I'm not into monologue.  It's not my learning style or my teaching style.  I keep discussions focused and I promote slow, careful, and considerate exchanges of ideas.  I think defining terms, asking questions, and being as specific as possible are essential to conducive discussion.They are crucifying me for it. 

[Molly]

What do you say, molly?  come lend me a hand over there.

Gabe, I can't get in lol.  I tried about 6 times.  Just take whatever parts of our thoughts that make sense to you and post them yourself.  There are also some great links we could look up for you to post.

Here's some more:

25 Its gates will never be closed at the end of day because there is no night there.
--Rev 21

See the cause and effect?  Because there is no night there--the gates will never be closed.

It is night which closes the gates of the holy city.  Jesus has ushered in his kingdom of light and it is only darkness that shuts the gates against men.




13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
--Mat 23


Sound familiar? lol

[legoman]

No problem - I understand.  I'm all for honest questioning and discussion as well.  But when multiple pages of the thread is basically discussing what posters did/said ie "he said she said" - basically personal accusations back and forth, then the peace needs to be restored before a dialogue can continue.

Like I said -not really sure how to proceed.  They were demanding answers, I say give'em the answers, although they are probably not in a state to receive them currently.  But you have to start with the really solid stuff.

God will have all men to be saved.
All men will see the salvation of God.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance.
God is reconciling all things - the world- to Himself.
He is the atonement for all sin (1 John 2:2)
He is the savior of the world (1 John 4:14)
Romans 5 is also good (though they totally missed it).  Focus on this sticking point: "the many" were made sinners - the same "the many" will be made righteous.

Many doesn't always refer to all, but it can refer to all.  Be precise.  Many does not mean "all" or "not all" - it simply means a large amount.  All can be a large amount - for example there are many people in the world.  That is a large amount.  All are many!

Eph 1:9-10 - God's plan in a nutshell - bring all things under one head - Christ.  So then all will be made alive in Christ and ultimately God will be all in all.

They will say "all" only means "believers".  Be precise.  Hold them to being precise as well. 
They will say God only desires all men to be saved, but He won't achieve it because of our free will.  Show'em scripture that says God will achieve all that He desires.  He does what He pleases.  He is the sovereign one, not us.

You have to be very careful when dealing with unreceptive people - they will take any mistake you make and try to rip you apart.  Prepare what to say and be precise.  Don't jump in without knowing all the answers first.  If you have a bad history with them (which I gathered from reading a bit) then that will make it all the harder.

You have to set the example, turn the other cheek.  Its tough.

IMHO the simplest proof is to understand that God desires to save all men and He achieves everything He desires.

Sorry I started rambling here... I should really collect my thoughts a bit and post over there.

Good luck...

[jabcat]

you didn't ramble, i thought it was very good.   :thumbsup:

[Samuel Cripps]

lego,

You are right. 

But didn't you notice that I did exactly what you just said I should have done?  Just review everything I said about Romans 5 and the all/many.

They simply won't consider anything I say because they despise me personally.   That's why I think it would be good if folks like you, who they dont know, contributed to the debate.

[Molly]

I don't understand their problem with Rom 5.  Paul is completely consistent using the same qualifier in his compound sentences to make them exactly parallel.

Rom 5:18  ThereforeG686 G3767 asG5613 byG1223 the offenceG3900 of oneG1520 judgment came uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 toG1519 condemnation;G2631 evenG2532 soG3779 byG1223 the righteousnessG1345 of oneG1520 the free gift came uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 untoG1519 justificationG1347 of life.G2222

Rom 5:19  ForG1063 asG5618 byG1223 oneG1520 man'sG444 disobedienceG3876 manyG4183 were madeG2525 sinners,G268 soG3779 (G2532) byG1223 theG3588 obedienceG5218 of oneG1520 shall manyG4183 be madeG2525 righteous.G1342


Rom 5:20  MoreoverG1161 the lawG3551 entered,G3922 thatG2443 theG3588 offenceG3900 might abound.G4121 ButG1161 whereG3757 sinG266 abounded,G4121 graceG5485 did much more abound:G5248

Judgment came upon pas by one, so too the free gift shall come upon pas by one.

polus were made sinners by one; polus shall be made righteous by one

Then he goes on to say that grace will abound even much more than sin.  So everywhere else there is a direct and equal comparison except here--sin does not come anywhere near the amount of grace that is being poured forth to counter it.

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) always (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

G4183
πολύς, πολλός
polus  polos
pol-oos'
Including the forms from the alternate "pollos"; (singular) much (in any respect) or (plural) many; neuter (singular) as adverb largely; neuter (plural) as adverb or noun often, mostly, largely: - abundant, + altogether, common, + far (passed, spent), (+ be of a) great (age, deal, -ly, while), long, many, much, oft (-en [-times]), plenteous, sore, straitly. Compare G4118, G4119.


Moreover--this is a very powerful phrase

byG1223 the righteousnessG1345 of oneG1520 [the free gift came] uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 untoG1519 justificationG1347 of life.G2222

The Greek--

by justification of One to all men unto justification of life

In other words, one [man] has justified the life of all [men]!


Jesus is so wonderful!

[Aleax]

If the sin is burned away, and the person then spends eternity with God, than there is no penalty.

:sigh:

If a man robs a bank, is sentenced for 3 years and after that time is released... there is no penalty?

[Aleax]

I forgot that for once, I actually have something useful to post. So they are arguing no-one ever gets out of the LoF? Here's someone's commentary on why he believes that whereas Paul got a glimpse of eternity, John saw only things pertaining to time.

---

Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:

No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20-22, we have:

Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote

Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)


Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:

All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)

All for Him (verse 16)

All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)



1 Corinthians 15:22:

In Adam all are dying

In Christ shall all be made alive


The literal Greek in 1 Corinthians 15:22 reads:

hosphor gar en to Adam pantes apothneskousin houtos kai en to christo pantes zoopoiethesontai.

"Even as for in the Adam all are dying, thus also in the Christ, all shall be made alive."

The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens more like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, that very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam that will not be made alive in Christ. It is a perfectly balanced statement which Jesus said was already set in motion.

[Aleax]

Aldai Loudy takes on the Fallacy of Matthew 25:46

---

IV. THE GLORY THRONE JUDGMENT
Time: The Revelation of Christ in Power and Much glory
Place: The Throne of His Glory on the Earth in the Valley of Jehoshaphat
Subjects: The Living Nations (Gentiles)
Basis of Judgment: Their Treatment of Christ's Brethren, the Jews, during the Coming Indignation
Result: Some Nations "Saved," others "Chastened"

Almost every preacher who attempts a sermon on the "judgment," takes his text from Matthew 25:31-46 and expounds it as the "final judgment" in which he arraigns all humanity (the living and the resurrected dead) before the One sitting on the throne, to hear their destiny declared unto them! Our International Sunday School literature makes this awful blunder every time they attempt an exposition on the subject, leading thousands on thousands of God's saints astray from the revealed truth. How this "judgment" can be confused with the "Great White Throne Judgment" of Revelation 20:11-15 (if teachers would only read the two accounts, to say nothing of studying them), presents a bewildering problem. Let us make a simple comparison:

THE GLORY THRONE Matthew 25                    THE GREAT WHITE THRONE Revelation 20
1. At Revelation of Christ                                One thousand years later
2. On the earth (Joel 3:2)                    Heaven and earth gone
3. Living nations judged                                The dead
4. No resurrection                                All resurrected
5. Three classes: "sheep,"
    "kids" and "brethren"                                One class: the dead
6. No books mentioned                                Books opened: book of life opened

--

[Sorry I can't seem to get the formatting right. -A]

--

This comparison reveals facts which make it impossible for these judgments to be identical. One is on this earth, and the other takes place after the heavens and the earth have fled, and the two are separated by a period of time of more than a thousand years!

Another witness against their identity is the Greek word ethnos, translated here in Matthew 25, "nations." It occurs 164 times in the Greek Scriptures, and is translated in our common version 93 times "gentiles," 64 times "nation" or "nations," 5 times "heathen," and 2 times "people." But never, in any instance, is it applied to either the dead or resurrected. In the face of this fact, verified by the internal evidence of the Scriptures themselves, surely we will not be guilty of uniting these two judgments again.

All this comes about by trying to make the Glory Throne Judgment of "nations" a judgment of individuals. The "sheep" represent one class of nations and the "goats" or "kids" another class, while the "brethren" represent the Jews, Christ's own brethren according to the flesh.

If we will let the Scriptures speak to us as they are written, all will be clear:

"Now immediately after the affliction of those days . . . they shall be viewing the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory" (Matt.24:29,30).

This is His glorious epiphany, or Revelation, from heaven when every eye shall be viewing Him (Matt.24:27; Rev.1:7; 19:11- 21), whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day...(2 Thess.1:6-10). It is then that these words of our Lord Jesus will find fulfillment:

"Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then He shall be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be assembled all nations, and He shall be severing then from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids" (Matt.25:31, 32).

So far as the record goes (and nothing else is admissible here), the personnel of this judgment consists of the "Judge and His retinue" (Matt.25:31), "the nations" (Matt.25:32; Joel 3:2, 3), and His "brethren" (Matt.25:40). These, no more and no less. If any resurrected people are there, they have to be forced into the text, for they are not given by the spirit.

This judgment of the nations is sounded again and again in the Hebrew Scriptures from Isaiah to Malachi. Familiarity with these accounts and their relation to Israel and the Millennial kingdom, should keep all from making it a final judgment. In Joel 3:1-21, we are given a very terse setting of this judgment scene:

"For behold! in those days and in that era,
In which I turn back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
I gather together all the nations also,
And cause them to descend into the vale of Jehoshaphat,
And I am judged with them there
As to My people and My allotment, Israel,
Whom they disperse among the nations.
               *       *      *       *      *               
`Mobilize and come, all nations around,
And muster!'
There cause Thy mighty ones to settle, Jehovah!
The nations are arousing and ascending to the vale of Jehoshaphat [Jehovah-JUDGE]
For there I an sitting to judge all the nations from around."

It is evident that all this refers to the nations who will be living on the earth in that day when Christ returns to establish His kingdom of glory on the earth. It has nothing whatever to do with the church or the wicked dead.

Christ will sever the nations from one another as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids, putting the sheep nations on His right and the kids on the left. Apparently these nations are made up largely of uncivilized peoples of the earth in that day, as they seem to know nothing of Christ. The sheep nations will be adjudged "just" for having befriended His brethren according to the flesh, showing them kindness, protection and assistance while suffering the awful affliction under the Desolator, and will be passed into the millennial kingdom and blessed with all the abundance of soulish blessings of that era, subservient to Israel. The nations who gave no consideration to the suffering and distress of His brethren during this awful affliction, will be sent away into eonian chastening (Matt.25:46).

This passage of Scripture is usually appealed to when proving eternal life for the righteous and everlasting punishment for the wicked--heaven and hell. But neither heaven nor hell, eternal life nor everlasting punishment are in view in the passage!

Another objection is usually raised concerning the eonian life given to the sheep nations, that this will be salvation by "good works;" and we readily agree that such is the case here, for faith seems not to enter into it in any way. The cause for such an objection however, is failure to apprehend that during God's eonian administrations He uses various methods of fitting mankind for fellowship with Himself. It should be remembered that the church which is the body of Christ, is graced with a salvation more transcendently glorious than all others, and at the time of this judgment scene, is already enjoying the bliss of their allotment among the celestials in heaven. The eonian salvation that becomes the portion of the nations in this judgment in no way compares with the allotment of glory lavished on the church (Eph. 2).

[Molly]

I forgot that for once, I actually have something useful to post. So they are arguing no-one ever gets out of the LoF? Here's someone's commentary on why he believes that whereas Paul got a glimpse of eternity, John saw only things pertaining to time.

---

Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:

No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20-22, we have:

Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote

Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)


Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:

All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)

All for Him (verse 16)

All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)



1 Corinthians 15:22:

In Adam all are dying

In Christ shall all be made alive


The literal Greek in 1 Corinthians 15:22 reads:

hosphor gar en to Adam pantes apothneskousin houtos kai en to christo pantes zoopoiethesontai.

"Even as for in the Adam all are dying, thus also in the Christ, all shall be made alive."

The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens more like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, that very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam that will not be made alive in Christ. It is a perfectly balanced statement which Jesus said was already set in motion.

Yes!  This is great.  You are not necessarily going to figure this out unless someone tells you.

Just copy and paste this  and send to Mr. Roy S.

[WhiteWings]

The "sheep" represent one class of nations and the "goats" or "kids" another class, while the "brethren" represent the Jews, Christ's own brethren according to the flesh.

I've been looking into that a while ago. Good to see that others see the same thing :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Almost every preacher who attempts a sermon on the "judgment," takes his text from Matthew 25:31-46 and expounds it as the "final judgment" in which he arraigns all humanity (the living and the resurrected dead) before the One sitting on the throne, to hear their destiny declared unto them! Our International Sunday School literature makes this awful blunder every time they attempt an exposition on the subject, leading thousands on thousands of God's saints astray from the revealed truth. How this "judgment" can be confused with the "Great White Throne Judgment" of Revelation 20:11-15 (if teachers would only read the two accounts, to say nothing of studying them), presents a bewildering problem. Let us make a simple comparison:

This article is also very illuminating.  I can't tell you how many times I've read that passage and 'not seen' the word 'nations.'



Mat 25:32  AndG2532 beforeG1715 himG846 shall be gatheredG4863 allG3956 nations:G1484 andG2532 he shall separateG873 themG846 one from another,G240 G575 asG5618 a shepherdG4166 dividethG873 his sheepG4263 fromG575 theG3588 goats:G2056


"nations"

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

[Molly]

The "sheep" represent one class of nations and the "goats" or "kids" another class, while the "brethren" represent the Jews, Christ's own brethren according to the flesh.

I've been looking into that a while ago. Good to see that others see the same thing :thumbsup:

People get these passages and scenes all jumbled up in their heads.  I think the thought of being in the presence of Jesus is so terrifying to people that they can't think straight about it lol.

Yes, I remember when you were covering this about the sheep and the goats being nations. :thumbsup:

[legoman]

If the sin is burned away, and the person then spends eternity with God, than there is no penalty.

:sigh:

If a man robs a bank, is sentenced for 3 years and after that time is released... there is no penalty?

Unfortunately in their mind the only penalty that makes "sense" is eternal torment.

[WhiteWings]

Stricktly speaking God isn't the HS.
But still in a way HS is the character of God.
All that slandering the character of God perhaps is (also) blasphemy of the HS.
So perhaps the ETs get the worst instead of the best deal.
They get :spank: in LoF while they hoped for some entertainment at teh beach of LoF  :beach:

[legoman]

lego,

You are right. 

But didn't you notice that I did exactly what you just said I should have done?  Just review everything I said about Romans 5 and the all/many.

They simply won't consider anything I say because they despise me personally.   That's why I think it would be good if folks like you, who they dont know, contributed to the debate.

Yes I did see that is what you were trying to do.  Unfortunately the thread was already "poisoned" - like you said you were being swarmed.  Basically they had turned the thread from debating about Romans 5/Lake of fire into debating about YOU.  And in their mind, if they "proved" you were dishonest/liar/whatever, they had defeated universal salvation - which is a fallacy in itself.  That's why you have to keep the discussion honest and focused on the debate, not the debater.  You have to keep focused on point, not get dragged into petty personal accusations back and forth.  Which admittedly is hard to do when you are being swarmed!  LOL.

At that point the "question and answer" format for learning is not going to work, because they are not going to answer your question directly, they will twist it around to put the ball back in your court.

What you have to do is ask your question, and give your answer at the same time.  Because they will not help you out and give you your answer.  They were getting frustrated with your questions, which did not help.

ie.

Explain that many does not mean "all" or "less-than-all".  It means "a large amount".  For example there are many stars.  Did I not include some stars in that statement?  NO.  I was talking about ALL stars.

Many were made sinners.  Does that mean some were not made sinners?  NO of course not.  All are sinners.  You could say that it is really all minus one (Jesus) - therefore many.  The many made sinners because of Adam.  And because of another adam (Christ), the many will be made righteous.


Then there are many corroborating scriptures on this point.  Isaiah 26:9 for example shows the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness through God's judgments.  When they have learned righteousness - they ARE righteous - therefore fulfilling Romans 5.

Therefore we see that judgment does not mean "eternal punishment" but actually can mean "teaching righteousness".

Heb 9:27 is a favorite to prove you go to hell when you die.  But it doesn't say that.  It says you will be judged.  And as we can see judgment is used for teaching righteousness.  Of course they may think those in hell will be "learning righteousness" forever, if they think it is righteous that people should burn forever.  At a certain point unreasonableness and illogic will be a wall you run into, and most people can't get past their own unreasonableness and stubornness, which is why they continue to believe in eternal torment.

Also sometimes you just need to take a break for a few days, let things cool off.

Peace out,
Legoman

[WhiteWings]

So basicly youe are suggesting to post small article that focus on one topic/verse?

[Samuel Cripps]

That's why you have to keep the discussion honest and focused on the debate, not the debater. 

That's precisely what I was doing!  LOL

[Nathan]

Hey Shawn, just read your post over at the "other" site . . .loved your last response.  Your gentle spirit should take you much further than their smugness against you.  I also found it interesting that they picked up on the fact that you're from Tent . . . I've registered but it won't activate me . . .not sure what's going on with that. 

I'm not even sure I want to get too engaged over there . . .seems to be a fine line between casting your bread upon the water and casting your pearls before the swine.

Great approach you are taking though . . .honey is always greater than vinegar.

[legoman]

Sort of.

Basically instead of posing more open-ended questions that can always be turned around on you, post scriptural facts that cannot be refuted.

Does God want all to be saved?  They don't seem to be the Calvinist... so I'm guessing they would say yes.  Can God achieve His desires?  This is where they will probably disagree.  Show the scriptural facts.

And don't lose focus.  If God wants all to be saved, then He is not going to leave any suffering forever.  If God wants all to be saved, then people do not suffer forever in the lake of fire.

Where does it even say sinners stay forever in the lake of fire?  AFAIK on a literal reading, it doesn't.  AFAIK It says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are the only "eternal" inhabitants of the lake of fire.  So what does that mean for all the every day average sinners?  (Assuming the beast and false prophet are literal people - which is an incorrect assumption).

So:
1. Present scriptural facts that cannot be refuted
2. Be precise in what you say
3. Stay focused

Let me give you an example of what I mean by being precise.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

People will read this and assume they never get out.  That is imprecise.  Does this verse say what happens to them in the lake of fire?  NO.  Does this verse say they stay in there forever?  NO.  Does it say they get out?  NO.  All we know is that those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

But we must stay focused on what we know.  God wants to save all men.  So He will do it.  Therefore the lake of fire is:
1. useful towards that goal
2. not ultimately "bad"

And of course we see other examples of fire in scripture where people are "refined", "purified", "salted", etc. with fire.

Stay focused, build a case on irrefutable verses.

Of course they will try to refute the irrefutable.  At a certain point you can't argue with someone who insists 2+2=5.  "WHAT? 2+2=4?  NO it doesn't.  That is man's reasoning!  This scripture here clearly says 2+2=5!"  LOL.  Oh well...

[WhiteWings]

The thread is closed...

Does God want all to be saved?  They don't seem to be the Calvinist... so I'm guessing they would say yes.  Can God achieve His desires?  This is where they will probably disagree.  Show the scriptural facts.

And don't lose focus.  If God wants all to be saved, then He is not going to leave any suffering forever.  If God wants all to be saved, then people do not suffer forever in the lake of fire.

They answer: God doesn't like it but He respects them chosing hell.

Where does it even say sinners stay forever in the lake of fire?  AFAIK on a literal reading, it doesn't.  AFAIK It says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are the only "eternal" inhabitants of the lake of fire.  So what does that mean for all the every day average sinners?  (Assuming the beast and false prophet are literal people - which is an incorrect assumption).

The passage below shows sinners go into the fire. (if that fire is LoF or not is of little importance.
Then automaticly we arrive at the fanout Matthew 25:46. I think you know what that means.... "Eternal=eternal" "Hu? So you say eternal life is ending?"

^YLTMatt 25
33 and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren--the least--to me ye did it .
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
42 for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;
43 a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.
44 `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?
45 `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of these, the least, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

So:
1. Present scriptural facts that cannot be refuted
2. Be precise in what you say
3. Stay focused

I've been reading a few pages and their logic can easily be refuted. The problem is that they refuse discussion
There isn't as single verse that proves UR.
By that I mean:
a] You have to prove zillions of word meanings like age, what/who is fire, all=all, especially
b] Many verses can be easily read out of context.

UR isn't based on one verse. That's good because it means it's solid. But the it also means to prove it to others you need to discuss at least 10% of the Bible...

Let me give you an example of what I mean by being precise.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

People will read this and assume they never get out.  That is imprecise.  Does this verse say what happens to them in the lake of fire?  NO.  Does this verse say they stay in there forever?  NO.  Does it say they get out?  NO.  All we know is that those not written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire.

Their answer: It's true the verse doesn't say no one exits. But if there is no verse that proves nobody exits it's only logical nobody exits.

But we must stay focused on what we know.  God wants to save all men.  So He will do it.  Therefore the lake of fire is:

All=elect/believers.
Wants=hope not fact.

Of course they will try to refute the irrefutable.  At a certain point you can't argue with someone who insists 2+2=5.  "WHAT? 2+2=4?  NO it doesn't.  That is man's reasoning!  This scripture here clearly says 2+2=5!"  LOL.  Oh well...

Actually 2+2 IS 5 for very large value's of 2.

[shawn]

Hey Shawn, just read your post over at the "other" site . . .loved your last response.  Your gentle spirit should take you much further than their smugness against you.  I also found it interesting that they picked up on the fact that you're from Tent . . . I've registered but it won't activate me . . .not sure what's going on with that. 

I'm not even sure I want to get too engaged over there . . .seems to be a fine line between casting your bread upon the water and casting your pearls before the swine.

Great approach you are taking though . . .honey is always greater than vinegar.

Thank you Nathan.  It's funny because that same verse of casting my pearls before swine came to me while posting.  I just hope a couple people there are ready.  And you know what kind of ready I am talking about.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

Hang on guys.  If you can't post, there appears to be a settings issue.  Let me work on it and I'll try to fix it.

[Molly]

There, that's better. :thumbsup: