Getting swarmed in a debate

[Samuel Cripps]

I've been engaged in a discussion on universal salvation here:

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?p=42919&posted=1#post42919

I post as 'Gabriel'.



Won't anyone join the fun?

[Molly]

They are missing the concept of the ages.  So they are coming to the conclusion that the result of the end of one age is the result for all time.

Do the ages stop altogether when the elect [the saints] come to rule and reign with Christ?  Or do things progress from there until God is all in all?

How do they explain God being all in all when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father--in some future age-- if some [most] are still separated in the lake of fire?

[jabcat]

They are missing the concept of the ages.  So they are coming to the conclusion that the result of the end of one age is the result for all time.

Do the ages stop altogether when the elect [the saints] come to rule and reign with Christ?  Or do things progress from there until God is all in all?

How do they explain God being all in all when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father--in some future age-- if some [most] are still separated in the lake of fire?

:thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Okay, I tried . . . I went to the site and tried to read some of the stuff and when I read your posts . . . it felt like someone trying to provoke a sleeping dog to wake up and the dog wasn't having any of it.  I didn't read through the whole thread because those responding just don't have the eyes to see what you're seeing.  Nor are they interested in seeing the scales fall because according to their understanding, their vision is just fine and it's yours that's got problems.

A mind that is closed is a fortress that becomes impenetrable.  They simply aren't at the place where they could even comprehend that just maybe, what Jesus did wasn't just for those in the world that would just happen to be at the right place at the right time to hear the gospel and respond positively to it, but that he also redeemed those who were homeless and had no opportunity to hear the gospel preached, to those where were born into paganisms where there was no hope of the child ever hearing about Jesus due to being rasied in a family that despises Christians, God, Christ . . .the blood of Jesus just can't reach those people, it can only reach the ones' who's minds willingly accept what he did was for "them". 

It really felt like you were trying to pursuade them how valuable this gift is that you've been given and not only do they not see it as valuable, they don't even recognize what it is in the first place. 

Religion is the hardening compound that makes up the brick houses around us.  The only thing that can penetrait that is the Father's will.  It's coming, they just aren't aware of it yet.

[Aleax]

They are missing the concept of the ages.  So they are coming to the conclusion that the result of the end of one age is the result for all time.

Do the ages stop altogether when the elect [the saints] come to rule and reign with Christ?  Or do things progress from there until God is all in all?

How do they explain God being all in all when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father--in some future age-- if some [most] are still separated in the lake of fire?

I agree, even though I'd rather use the word "eon" than "age", as there can be several ages within an eon, to my understanding.

Maybe you should direct them to teh Divine Calendar. http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/TheDivineCalendar.html

[WhiteWings]

Hi SC,

You will never win the debate with the hardcore firecrackers.
But remember there is always a silent majority that reads and conciders your posts.
I know for example some of this forum had similar debates elsewhere.
They once in a while got contacted by people that never posted in public.
So your message may have touched more hearts than you know.
:2c:

[Molly]

They are missing the concept of the ages.  So they are coming to the conclusion that the result of the end of one age is the result for all time.

Do the ages stop altogether when the elect [the saints] come to rule and reign with Christ?  Or do things progress from there until God is all in all?

How do they explain God being all in all when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father--in some future age-- if some [most] are still separated in the lake of fire?

I agree, even though I'd rather use the word "eon" than "age", as there can be several ages within an eon, to my understanding.

Maybe you should direct them to teh Divine Calendar. http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/TheDivineCalendar.html

wow.  That was an amazing article.  Thank you!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ditto that  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

I wonder why this teaching is so hidden from the church?  Everyone seems to miss it.  If you are not taught it from the beginning, then you have to wait until the grace of God makes it available to you [which in my case has taken years lol].  And, it is grace, because everything about it is hidden, right down to the translation of the original words used to describe it.


3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

--Heb 11


[the worlds[aions]] "were framed"

G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
kat-ar-tid'-zo
From G2596 and a derivative of G739; to complete thoroughly, that is, repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust: - fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect (-ly join together), prepare, restore.

[Samuel Cripps]

Has anyone read through the debate?  They are really being civil towards me, yes?   :thumbdown:

[Molly]

Has anyone read through the debate?  They are really being civil towards me, yes?   :thumbdown:

I read through it.  They are being nasty and smug and arrogant, which even if they were right, is so unfortunately the wrong spirit that one knows them by their fruit.  It's sad.  Because I sense they think they are pleasing God and they want to please him.  It's the same old story.

I suggest you change your argument.  Why not drop this concept of the eons on them and see what they do?

[shawn]

Has anyone read through the debate?  They are really being civil towards me, yes?   :thumbdown:

This is why I am done with these debates anywhere but here.  I was involved with one a wekk or so ago and told myself, never again.  I have no desire to speak to those unwilling to listen.  If someone is truly seeking I am more than happy to share my beliefs.  If not, I will leave it be.

[Samuel Cripps]

I'm not sold on the eons argument.  I cannot honestly say that aionios never means 'eternal' in the bible.

Has anyone read through the debate?  They are really being civil towards me, yes?   :thumbdown:

I read through it.  They are being nasty and smug and arrogant, which even if they were right, is so unfortunately the wrong spirit that one knows them by their fruit.  It's sad.  Because I sense they think they are pleasing God and they want to please him.  It's the same old story.

I suggest you change your argument.  Why not drop this concept of the eons on them and see what they do?

[Aleax]

They are missing the concept of the ages.  So they are coming to the conclusion that the result of the end of one age is the result for all time.

Do the ages stop altogether when the elect [the saints] come to rule and reign with Christ?  Or do things progress from there until God is all in all?

How do they explain God being all in all when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father--in some future age-- if some [most] are still separated in the lake of fire?

I agree, even though I'd rather use the word "eon" than "age", as there can be several ages within an eon, to my understanding.

Maybe you should direct them to teh Divine Calendar. http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/TheDivineCalendar.html

wow.  That was an amazing article.  Thank you!

No prob  :Sparkletooth:

However, there are varying opinions on the eons too, the chart by the Savior of All fellowship is somewhat different: http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/the_eons.htm

And the chart drawn by Dora van Assen has eight eons in total: http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/pdf/VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA/GRAPHIC%20No.%203%20-%20COMPLETE%20VISION%20[Dora%20Van%20Assen].pdf

[Aleax]

I'm not sold on the eons argument.  I cannot honestly say that aionios never means 'eternal' in the bible.

Has anyone read through the debate?  They are really being civil towards me, yes?   :thumbdown:

I read through it.  They are being nasty and smug and arrogant, which even if they were right, is so unfortunately the wrong spirit that one knows them by their fruit.  It's sad.  Because I sense they think they are pleasing God and they want to please him.  It's the same old story.

I suggest you change your argument.  Why not drop this concept of the eons on them and see what they do?

In my opinion "aionios" does mean both "eternal" and "age-lasting". The context decides which translation should be used. "Aionios God" obviously means "eternal God". However, the Bible does speak of at least five "aions". Because of this I believe in the theology of the eons, for five distinct "eternities" wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

[WhiteWings]

"Aionios God" obviously means "eternal God".

It does not. imo....
God of the ages doesn't limit God's lifespan. It merely states He's the owner/creator of the ages/time.

[Molly]

He is the God of the ages, and all the ages are 'framed' according to his plan.

This is such a deep and exciting study.  I am just standing on the outside looking in with awe.

One thing I just read in aleax's paper is that God gave governance over to man in this aeon.  Let all the men who have ever lived get their fill of man's governance such that they will never again ask for a king to rule over them [who is other than King Jesus].  Recently I read that government translates to govern=control and ment=mind--control of the mind.  Do I want my mind controlled by men?  No.  Yet, as someone said, it's a fulltime job to see the nose in front of your face--we are so [continually] deceived.

The ugliness, the cruelty, the unending suffering that man's governance leads to should convince anyone eventually that man cannot rule himself.  But this is the eon we are in today, that 'evil age' that we have been rescued from by our Dear Lord.

There are other things going on as well.  Things in the heavenlies that modern man no longer considers real.  Things that impact us as daily events and as believers.  Believers have lost the knowledge and understanding of these things and how they impact the ages.  There is so much to know, that knowledge of a little bit of it can lead to conclusions that are, if not totally wrong, at least, distorted.  So, it's not so much a matter of teaching someone else, as learning ourselves.


5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

--Luke 4

[Molly]

They are missing the concept of the ages.  So they are coming to the conclusion that the result of the end of one age is the result for all time.

Do the ages stop altogether when the elect [the saints] come to rule and reign with Christ?  Or do things progress from there until God is all in all?

How do they explain God being all in all when Christ hands the kingdom over to the Father--in some future age-- if some [most] are still separated in the lake of fire?

I agree, even though I'd rather use the word "eon" than "age", as there can be several ages within an eon, to my understanding.

Maybe you should direct them to teh Divine Calendar. http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/TheDivineCalendar.html

wow.  That was an amazing article.  Thank you!

No prob  :Sparkletooth:

However, there are varying opinions on the eons too, the chart by the Savior of All fellowship is somewhat different: http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature/the_eons.htm

And the chart drawn by Dora van Assen has eight eons in total: http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/pdf/VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA/GRAPHIC%20No.%203%20-%20COMPLETE%20VISION%20[Dora%20Van%20Assen].pdf

Thanks!  I think the point is not that we necessarily have to be totally accurate in our understanding of the ages [or eons], but just that we need to know they exist so that we do not draw erroneous conclusions based on our lack of knowledge of them.

For instance, if we are in the age of law where our belief [of the age] is that we are Hebrews and therefore God's chosen people, then all those Jews converting to Christianity are going to look like heretics to us and enemies and worthy of death and just plain wrong.  Hence, they kill Jesus and all the apostles.

Equally so, these Christians that see that only the elect will be saved in this age [to rule and reign with Christ] are not wrong so much as short sighted.  They are ignoring that this is not the last age, nor the one after this, for that matter.

They want scripture that will prove to them that someone can make it out of the lake of fire.  But, that requires not just a scripture, but a change of heart and an openess to God's plan of the ages to see it.

[Samuel Cripps]

The discussion has moved to here:

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3708

Does anyone leave the lake of fire?

[Molly]

The discussion has moved to here:

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3708

Does anyone leave the lake of fire?

To my simple understanding and to keep it simple--

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
--Heb 10

"forever" in this passage is eis diēnekes which means into perpetuity and continually.


So the effects of his sacrifice for sin is never ending, until there is no more sin.

We see this state reached in 1 Cor 15.



1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.




26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

--1 Cor 15

This is looking way down the line to 'the end' where God is all in all.  When this point is reached, how can there still be people being tormented in hell?  Instead, we see Paul telling us there is no more death, no more sin, just God all in all.

[Aleax]

Hi SC,

You will never win the debate with the hardcore firecrackers.
But remember there is always a silent majority that reads and conciders your posts.
I know for example some of this forum had similar debates elsewhere.
They once in a while got contacted by people that never posted in public.
So your message may have touched more hearts than you know.
:2c:

The bolded line reminded me of how, a few weeks ago, the subject of afterlife came up at the church I'm attending.
Only one person stated he firmly believes everyone dying without Jesus will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Several people argued that the Bible isn't clear on the fate of the unbelievers.
One person said he considered repentance beyond grave possibly Biblical.
Someone suggested Annihilation.
But the thing that surprised me was only one guy was 100% convinced ET (that is, of those who commented on the issue).

As you said there may be more people open to tradition-shattering ideas than one might think.

[shawn]

I told myself I wouldn't ever enter one of these debates again.  My spirit is willing but my flesh is weak.   :bigGrin:

I put my  :2c: in...but if the abuse starts flying I'm out.

[WhiteWings]

Shawn,

You don't need to read the answers. They only have 3 answers; so just make  a standard reply that adresses all 3 points  :winkgrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

The thread looks closed.

[WhiteWings]

The thread looks closed.

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?s=1ea3b1547eb194dade605074cfa9c7e9&t=3708&page=29