Gehenna not trash dump?

[WhiteWings]

This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)

If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone with a Hebrew or Greek version of Enoch?

Still no luck but I know there are Greek, Hebrew, Armiac and Ethiopian translations.

But, Shawn, perhaps you should have quoted one more verse.

4 In the days of judgment over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with 5 which He has assigned them (their lot).' Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.

Do you think those in a eternal hell will bless His mercy?

[shawn]

This cursed valley [Gey-Hinnom/Gehenna] is for those who are cursed forever...Here they will be gathered together and here will be their place of judgment. In the last days there will be upon them the spectacle of righteous judmgent in the presence of the righteous forever. (1 Enoch 27:1-3)

If anyone has the word used to translate forever here that would be greatly appreciated.

Anyone with a Hebrew or Greek version of Enoch?

Still no luck but I know there are Greek, Hebrew, Armiac and Ethiopian translations.

But, Shawn, perhaps you should have quoted one more verse.

4 In the days of judgment over the former, they shall bless Him for the mercy in accordance with 5 which He has assigned them (their lot).' Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and set forth His glory and lauded Him gloriously.

Do you think those in a eternal hell will bless His mercy?

Good point.

[eaglesway]

1Co 3:13-17  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  (14)  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  (15)  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  (16)  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?  (17)  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Joh 15:5-6  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  (6)  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luk 3:9  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luk 3:16-17  John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:  (17)  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Rev 1:14-16  His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;  (15)  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.  (16)  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Heb 4:12-13  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.  (13)  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


IMO The fire of God is within the Spirit of prophecy that pierces to he dividing asunder of soul and spirit... making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. It is clear in 1 Corinthians 3 that this is redemptive in nature, and that some Christians will endure also. Jesus indicates this as well, for who will say "Lord, Lord, etc., etc." but Christians. Whether Gehenna was a garbage dump or not is in my opinion immaterial, except for the fact that we should be sure that we have proper authority before we speak as if we know..... I think it is an interesting point and I am going to start studying it out :o)

Mar 9:43  `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire--the unquenchable--

This experience burns. Our God is a consuming fire. he will avenge Himself upon His enemies until every knee bows and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. The aspect of garbage may be colloqial or euphemistic, but it fits. You will not get out until you pay the last penny. That last penny is "truth in the inward parts" after the Light of Day prevails as a consuming fire over the darkness within which we hide until the last enemy, "death and the grave" is consumed- because it has no more purpose. Then God will be all in all, for from Him and to Him and through Him are all things.

Crammed this in before leaving for work. Forgive the brevity and directness, I will edit it later :o)

[WhiteWings]

A good book that I would recommend that contributes well to today's post is Bradley Jersak's "Her Gates Will Never Be Shut: Hope, Hell, and the New Jeruslaem" (Wipf and Stock, 2009). Brad makes a good case for the idea that by the time of Jesus two Gehenna traditions had developed – both of which trace back to the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.
1. The Apocalyptic-Infernalist Tradition: Enoch > Talmud > Church
This tradition uses historic Hinnom as a metaphor for a literal place of punishment in the afterlife. It can be punitive or purgative, permanent or temporary, annihilation or torment.
2. The Historic-Prophetic Tradition: Jeremiah > Jesus
Jesus' use of Gehenna intentionally references Jeremiah's prophetic use of HInnom to represent literal destruction. He recalls the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE as a warning of the impending fall of Jerusalem to Rome in 70 CE.
Btw, there is also a nice afterword in Brad's book by Professor Nik Ansell on hell.

Comment by Adam — January 5, 2010 @ 9:54 am

[Doug]

A good book that I would recommend that contributes well to today's post is Bradley Jersak's "Her Gates Will Never Be Shut: Hope, Hell, and the New Jeruslaem" (Wipf and Stock, 2009). Brad makes a good case for the idea that by the time of Jesus two Gehenna traditions had developed – both of which trace back to the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom.
1. The Apocalyptic-Infernalist Tradition: Enoch > Talmud > Church
This tradition uses historic Hinnom as a metaphor for a literal place of punishment in the afterlife. It can be punitive or purgative, permanent or temporary, annihilation or torment.
2. The Historic-Prophetic Tradition: Jeremiah > Jesus
Jesus' use of Gehenna intentionally references Jeremiah's prophetic use of HInnom to represent literal destruction. He recalls the fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE as a warning of the impending fall of Jerusalem to Rome in 70 CE.

I think he is right in saying that Jesus would have based his words of the prophecies of Jeremiah about Gehenna, rather than the Jewish traditions, but IMO, he may have missed some things that could be important, in his discussion. I have looked at the chapter on Gehenna in his book at Amazon.com, where a few pages were missing, but the sections of his book that I saw made no reference to the statements in the following verses in Jeremiah, about the burning of children in the fire as offerings to Baal, and that doing such a thing had "never come into God's mind."

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Since humans are God's creation, the idea that God would bring children into the world, only to have them burned in the fire, has not come into his mind, seems to preclude the traditional views of hell, and the traditional interpretations of Gehenna, that identify it with hell, which I think derives the reverse of the intended meaning from Jeremiah's words.

Jersak refers to Bishop N. T. Wright and W. Balfour, who support the 70 AD interpretation of the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna in the New Testament, but he did not show how the things Jesus said of Gehenna could actually apply to the Jews as a nation. How could the Jews as a nation pluck out their eye? or cut off their right hand? or a foot? That sound ridiculous when applied to the Jews as a nation. Neither Wright nor Balfour address this.

Also, when Jesus spoke of calling one's brother a "fool" or "Raka," how could it apply to them as a nation? Who is their "brother?" Unless its advocates can address these questions, the idea that Jesus was referring to events that occurred in 70 AD when he mentioned Gehenna simply makes no sense, as I have pointed out in previous posts, such as this one, or this one, or this one, or this one.

The threat of Gehenna was addressed to the disciples, and to the scribes and Pharisees, who had heard the preaching of Jesus. The location of Gehenna, immediately outside the walls of Jerusalem, suggests its meaning is to be found in connection with Jerusalem as the holy city of the saints, the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. The ones threatened with Gehenna were in danger of being rejected from God's kingdom. That is what it represents, and that is what Bishop N. T. Wright and W. Balfour missed.

Since one has to be in Jerusalem to be cast out of it, Gehenna is not a threat to those who were never called, or to those who never heard the gospel preached. It is a warning that applies to Christians, mainly, and to those who have heard the gospel.

Doug

The Bishop, the Ghost, and Gehenna

[thinktank]

But God has already destroyed his children via fire in the old testament. It is the same God. Many unbelivers can see this in the bible.

This has been a tough issue for Christians to explain how a loving God could destroy his creation, but I think I have the answer, in a revelation that God gave me. Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers, so any evil actions he takes is rightoeus. But any evil actions an unrightoeus does is evil. This is hypocrital of God, but key to understanding the ways of God. A bit like how as adults we are hypocritical to children because we do things that they cannot do. We are able to do these things because we are wiser and more experienced than the child.
:2c:

[Doug]

But God has already destroyed his children via fire in the old testament. It is the same God. Many unbelivers can see this in the bible.

This has been a tough issue for Christians to explain how a loving God could destroy his creation, but I think I have the answer, in a revelation that God gave me. Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers, so any evil actions he takes is rightoeus. But any evil actions an unrightoeus does is evil. This is hypocrital of God, but key to understanding the ways of God. A bit like how as adults we are hypocritical to children because we do things that they cannot do. We are able to do these things because we are wiser and more experienced than the child.
:2c:

I think I would seriously question the source of a "revelation" that suggests God is a hypocrite!

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Doug

Walter Balfour's discussion of Gehenna
Comments on Walter Balfour's interpretation of Gehenna

[thinktank]

Only hypocritical from a human standpoint, who does not understand the ways of God.
:2c:

[micah7:9]

But God has already destroyed his children via fire in the old testament. It is the same God. Many unbelivers can see this in the bible.

This has been a tough issue for Christians to explain how a loving God could destroy his creation, but I think I have the answer, in a revelation that God gave me. Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers, so any evil actions he takes is rightoeus. But any evil actions an unrightoeus does is evil. This is hypocrital of God, but key to understanding the ways of God. A bit like how as adults we are hypocritical to children because we do things that they cannot do. We are able to do these things because we are wiser and more experienced than the child.
:2c:

"Partly that God created evil to punish evil doers...." what a silly(Iwaned to say worse)thing to say. God ceated evil to bring mankind His creation, to completness. To even give thought that God could have an evil vibration shows a lack of knowing how great God is. God created evil, but it is mankind that uses it for grief, and thus we learn. This is all being revealed since the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[redhotmagma]

remedial punishment or chastisement -->completeness
                                               

Only hypocritical from a human standpoint, who does not understand the ways of God.
:2c:

Like how God gave them commands that were not good for them.  Telling the Israelites to fashion graven images that were clearly forbidden in the 10 commandments.

[thinktank]

I admit my post was incomplete and missing some key ingridients to balance it.

The evil that God created is used to punish those who do evil. So I am not saying that God created the devil or created Hitler etc.

But I am saying that God used and created evil to destroy, man in a flood during Noahs time.

He used evil to destroy Sodom and Gomorah

He used evil to threaten Israel by the sword of a mighty angel

He used evil to swallow up Israelites in the wilderness by the Earth

He sent king David to kill and destroy the enemies of Israel and to wipe out the giants of old

He sent some angel to kill Annias in the church for they lied to the holy ghost

So you see God uses evil to teach mankind a lesson. So not so silly Micah, you even agree that God created evil and have preached it.
But if you deny that God does not do any evil whatosever, then perhaps you'd like to explain the flood of Noah, Sodom and Gomorah, Pauls thorn, Jobs quote "The lord giveth the Lord taketh", "Hurt in the lake of fire" "Chastized with many striped" "Whosever God son he loves he chastizes"

God is no stranger to doing evil, but only does it out of His perect rightoeus will and according to Genesis, doing evil such as the flood is a strange thing for God, so he did not created evil as ying and yang balance, but only to show it's face when needed to execute rightoeus judgment. So any human who does evil outside of Gods will is being sinfull but if doing evil inside of Gods will, e.g King David killing the armies, then not sinfull. But in todays world, I would not use this as advice, as there are some crazy people about, who think they do Gods will. But simply to show that king David did not sin when killing those enemies.
:2c:

[Nathan]

What if it's not God doing evil, but it's the consequences of men's choices that brings evil upon themselves.

[thinktank]

Yes. I don't think God is quick to judge. I think that these judgments were carefylly crafted by God. His grace and mercy is long enduring. But we as readers of the bible text have only a snapshot idea of the conditions of Noah's time period, Sodoms time period etc. Perhaps if we got transported to that time period, we would be absolutely shocked at the depravity and cry out and beg for God to do something about this. Also the population in those towns would not be that great. Sodom city was so small that the men recognized where Lot lived and knew that there were 2 men there.

[Universalist Catholic]

If anything, its just probably some biased record written by someone who believed that Hell was Eternal Torment, and Gehenna was the same place.  Plus wiki is not the best source for accurate historical scholarly work.