Eternal Destruction

[WhiteWings]

Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?

I have no idea.  I do know that you are very well versed on the strengths and weakness of each stance.  With that said, much of this is clever debate.  I prefer looking at what the bulk of scripture says on a subject to draw conclusions.  When I try to reason these kinds of things out I get myself in trouble.  I can begin believing things that are not beneficial to me spiritually.

It was not intended as debate. And even if it was the same applies to UR. Many on this forum believe in some sort after death correction. I think I'm right if I say none of them believe it to be ET type of stuff. But on the subject of duration it is very silent.
Still it would be nice if you or an other ED believer had verses about the time before permanent death. That time might very well be the verses that UR overlooked for it's own purification believes.....

[WhiteWings]

I can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.

The only problem is though--I'm not quite sure how you kill an immortal being.  Because doesn't this mortal have to put on immortality for resurrection? 

Not sure but aren't different Greek words used? Lazarus was brought back to life by Jesus. But is Lazarus still alive?
An immortal being can't be killed. Not even Father can do that because that would mean He has to break His promise of immortality. He will never break a promise.

[WhiteWings]

I thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin..

That would mean Adam had the power to undo immortality...? Is there any proof Adam was immortal before he sinned? I've read a theory that states Adam was mortal but would never have died if he kept eating from the tree of live.

Sin brings death

Who sins, dies. True.
Does that mean conditional immortality?
Maybe in theory but noone managed to meet the condition. So is that really immortality :dontknow:

Is it possible to lie in sheol for thousands of years yet be instantanously judged and perish?  In our 4D world...no.  In a 10D +1 multibrane...it's speculated that this can indeed happen.  See the problem with reasoning these things out...is that we do so through really limited filters formed by our own ignorance.  We are to not lean on our own understanding and I believe this is one of the reasons why.

Shawn you may like this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3121.0

[WhiteWings]

Where does the concept of "eternal death" come from?

See first post in this thread.

[Molly]

I thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin.  Sin brings death.  Why would you have to be immortal to be resurrected?

Because Paul tells us that is how it works.  The dead already died through Adam.  But when they are resurrected to life after death, this mortal now puts on immortality.



51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1 Cor 15

[shawn]

Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?

I have no idea.  I do know that you are very well versed on the strengths and weakness of each stance.  With that said, much of this is clever debate.  I prefer looking at what the bulk of scripture says on a subject to draw conclusions.  When I try to reason these kinds of things out I get myself in trouble.  I can begin believing things that are not beneficial to me spiritually.

It was not intended as debate. And even if it was the same applies to UR. Many on this forum believe in some sort after death correction. I think I'm right if I say none of them believe it to be ET type of stuff. But on the subject of duration it is very silent.
Still it would be nice if you or an other ED believer had verses about the time before permanent death. That time might very well be the verses that UR overlooked for it's own purification believes.....

I know of no such verses.

[shawn]

I thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin.  Sin brings death.  Why would you have to be immortal to be resurrected?

Because Paul tells us that is how it works.  The dead already died through Adam.  But when they are resurrected to life after death, this mortal now puts on immortality.



51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

--1 Cor 15

I think it could be argued that this verse is speaking about the resurrection of believers to eternal life.

[Molly]

I think it could be argued that this verse is speaking about the resurrection of believers to eternal life.

Believers or not, he's speaking about a principle.  Either you are dead, dead, dead --or--

...this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


--1 Cor 15


I don't see how you can have it both ways.

In other words, in order to be resurrected so that you can be judged, you have to, by definition, now be an immortal--otherwise you would stay dead as a doornail.

[jabcat]

Our metamorphosis is a return into God. Not back into what we were in Adam in the Garden of Eden—but a returning unto our Father from whom we came. We are begotten of God, born of His Spirit. We have a Heavenly Calling, and we are returning home. "God bringeth man to destruction to say: Return ye children of men!" Ps.90:3. In returning and rest shall ye be saved! Isa. 30:15. Our strength for the heat of the day is in confidence and quietness, waiting upon him. Knowing that he who has begun a good work in us will also finish it, changing us from glory to glory into his very own glorious image. Christ all and in all, bringing us together into that place where God our Father is ALL in ALL—in all his creation. "In the dispensation of The Fulness of Times, God will gather together in One Head, all things in Christ, which are in heaven and which are in earth—even in him!" Eph.1:10. - Dora Van Assen

[shawn]

Our metamorphosis is a return into God. Not back into what we were in Adam in the Garden of Eden—but a returning unto our Father from whom we came. We are begotten of God, born of His Spirit. We have a Heavenly Calling, and we are returning home. "God bringeth man to destruction to say: Return ye children of men!" Ps.90:3. In returning and rest shall ye be saved! Isa. 30:15. Our strength for the heat of the day is in confidence and quietness, waiting upon him. Knowing that he who has begun a good work in us will also finish it, changing us from glory to glory into his very own glorious image. Christ all and in all, bringing us together into that place where God our Father is ALL in ALL—in all his creation. "In the dispensation of The Fulness of Times, God will gather together in One Head, all things in Christ, which are in heaven and which are in earth—even in him!" Eph.1:10. - Dora Van Assen

When I read this I was thinking.......we are God's masterpiece. 

[jabcat]

Wow, exactly Shawn.  He really does love us!  I've got a cool link for you (and others of course  :bigGrin:) to read.  I'll find it and be back and post it.

[Molly]

When I read this I was thinking.......we are God's masterpiece.

Ha!

30then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
   rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
   and delighting in the children of man [Adam].

--Prov 8

[jabcat]

Amen, and amen.

Our spirit returns to God Who gave it.

Thomas J. Kissinger is a UR minister of who I post his mailings from time to time.  Once he responded to me with,  "I really appreciate your comments. That means a lot to me. Gary Amirault's website is very special to me. It was the first one I came across when researching the Greek word Aion. It made me free!!!"

The following link is to one of his mailings - God Takes Good Care of His Artwork.  Be blessed.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7040.msg79279#msg79279

[Cardinal]

Who are kings?  ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".  

When you said that, I realized that the holy city exists now, and it is the congregation of the saints in Christ.  As we bring our treasures into it, even on this board, before the saints, we are offering them within the holy city, the one true church.  What an honor!



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12

:cloud9: :bgdance: :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I'm not going to attempt to tackle all of this in detail.  Others will join in.  I'll just present these thoughts as sort of prompts while looking at LS' posts more closely.

I believe, almost without exception, that threatenings in the Old Testament were of a temporal, earthly nature - not having to do with eternal destiny.  

Things described as "eternal" in the Old Testament, at least often seem to be talking in terms of "until it had served its purpose".  The "eternal" fire burning at the altar, is no longer burning.  The "eternal" fire at the gate of Jerusalem is no longer burning.  Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", etc.

Destroyed is from apollumi.  There are whole studies on that, but basically that things can be lost, destroyed, but there still be redemption.  Things not of God destroyed, yet the man "saved as by fire".  Maybe some such as Hitler won't have much if anything left, other than the spirit God gave them - which returns to God upon death. (See WW's thread about the lost sheep and lost coin - it's the same word - apollumi.)  

Accurate translation is also vital.  Some translations are hopelessly confusing with their uses of forever, ever, eternal, hell, etc.  (I don't know that I've ever seen "pool of fire".)   :dontknow:

Some things to consider just as a piece of the whole.  James.

Very Well said.  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

A great awakening!

[jabcat]

Very Well said.  :thumbsup:

Thanks Brother.  :bigGrin:.  Blessings.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen....good word....the tribulation of the flesh lasts just as long as it's necessary to reveal Christ, and not a second longer..... :winkgrin: