Eternal Destruction

[jabcat]

What's the book?  Sounds interesting.

[WhiteWings]

Why didn't God simply say I will wash you with soap

He did  :laughing7:
^KJVMal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

[WhiteWings]

I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.

IMO pastors are not spiritual clean. They are bound by doctrine. Imagine what happens to teh job of a protestant preacher that suddenly starts preaching Catholic things.
I think the truth was availble to all who spoke Greek. But then during translation things got lost. Doctrines of pagan origin poluted things even more. And today it's even blasphemy to consider Father could be that lake. And because that fear of investigation the truth fades away.

2303 qei/on theion {thi'-on}
Meaning:  1) brimstone 1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Origin:  probably of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); TDNT - 3:122,*; n n
Usage:  AV - brimstone 7; 7
^KJVRev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and THEION: which is the second death.

...he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb... - Revelation 14:10 (YLT)

Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, BASANIZO (torment): "to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

As the primary meaning of noun, THEION (brimstone), Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that THEION was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."

E.W. Bullinger defined THEION as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "THEIA," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "THEION.")

This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb THEIOO thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"

This makes sense considering that THEION is the neuter singular of the adjective THEIOS, which means "divine." THEIOS is, of course, derived from THEOS, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.

When we add to this mix the image of fire, aren't we reminded of the common attestation to God as a purifying fire?

It seems evident, then, that to be "tormented with fire and brimstone" is to be tried and purified by Divine Fire.

FIRE is the heat and light that you feel and see when something burns. It takes heat to start a fire, but once the fire is started it produces heat that keeps the process going. Thus, fire is really HEAT and LIGHT. In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.
From THIS article

But the ed view has scriptural and natural backing based on the old testament.

And still Jews are not ETs. Most are URs. There are a few EDs that believe only the very very very wicked (tiny percentage) gets killed. Just saying not all agree with ED in OT.

I think the best support for the lake of fire being a spiritual fire are the scriptures that say he's like a refiners fire etc

Acts 7:30  And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
1 Chronicles 21:26  And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
1 Corinthians 3:13  .... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Deuteronomy 4:24  For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 1:27  And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, ....  saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about ....
Genesis 15:17  ....  behold a smoking furnace (God), and a burning lamp (God) that passed between those pieces (cut up sacrificial animals).
Hebrews 1:7  And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
Isaiah 4:4  .... and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah 4:5  ....  a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
James 3:5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Judges 6:21  Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
Luke 3:16  ....  he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Þ Baptism is a positive act.
Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Matthew 3:11  .... whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2 Kings 6:17  And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
1 Peter 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried (=tested) with fire ....
1 Peter 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Psalm 18:8  There went up a smoke out of his (God) nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psalm 66:10-12  .... thou hast tried us, as silver is tried (=tested) .... we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.
Psalm 104:4  Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Romans 12:20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him (=love); if he thirst, give him drink (=love): for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire (=love) on his head.

but I'm not sure how it can tie up with what I said about God being seperate from the lake of fire.

[WhiteWings]

I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Good points I agree with. They most certainly would be true for submitting to earthly rulers. But what if you just change your mind because of something I can't explain/know.
Not promoting NDEs here but I just use a returning 'event' from them to give a possible way how that converstion happens.
People go to a certain place. They feel fine. The feel at peace. Then the meet a "very bright light" (like Saul???)
At that point they get complely soaked with feelings of peace and rest. Are those people be forced to be happy?
Happy is black or white. Either you are happy or not. You can fake happiness but that's not truely happy.
Lets assume God cheated and used some magic so the person started to feel happy completly against his or her will.
Is the person happy or not....?  :dontknow:

[shawn]

I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Good points I agree with. They most certainly would be true for submitting to earthly rulers. But what if you just change your mind because of something I can't explain/know.
Not promoting NDEs here but I just use a returning 'event' from them to give a possible way how that converstion happens.
People go to a certain place. They feel fine. The feel at peace. Then the meet a "very bright light" (like Saul???)
At that point they get complely soaked with feelings of peace and rest. Are those people be forced to be happy?
Happy is black or white. Either you are happy or not. You can fake happiness but that's not truely happy.
Lets assume God cheated and used some magic so the person started to feel happy completly against his or her will.
Is the person happy or not....?  :dontknow:

I really can go either way on this debate as I can debate both sides equally well.  I would be more able to believe that being in the presence of a holy and all power God would break through the most steely cold of hearts.  Some of us were able to find repentance while here on earth because Jesus opened our eyes and we seen him in his splendor.  But, for those who he chose to harden this enlightenment will come after death when they are in his presence.  And then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord.  Torturing those who he chose to harden for eternity makes no sense.  Gehenna makes little sense to me as well as I feel being in the presence of God would instantanously burn out all impurities. 

[LS]

for those who he chose to harden this enlightenment will come after death when they are in his presence.  And then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord.  Torturing those who he chose to harden for eternity makes no sense. 

While there clearly are occasions where God hardened hearts, I don't think it is always His doing or His will for hearts to be hardened.  If it were, why all of the passages that caution us not to harden our hearts?

1 Samuel 6:6
Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did?

Psalm 95:8
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah

Mark 8:17
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?

Hebrews 3:8
do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,

Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."

Hebrews 4:7
Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

There are passages that tell us that God turns us over to the things we pursue, such as Romans 1:18-32.

You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God."   I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away.  God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.

[CHB]

You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God."   I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away.  God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.

That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him, then all will be in all. How do you understand this verse?

(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}

CHB

[shawn]

for those who he chose to harden this enlightenment will come after death when they are in his presence.  And then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is Lord.  Torturing those who he chose to harden for eternity makes no sense. 

While there clearly are occasions where God hardened hearts, I don't think it is always His doing or His will for hearts to be hardened.  If it were, why all of the passages that caution us not to harden our hearts?

1 Samuel 6:6
Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did?

Psalm 95:8
do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah

Mark 8:17
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?

Hebrews 3:8
do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert,

Hebrews 3:15
As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion."

Hebrews 4:7
Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

There are passages that tell us that God turns us over to the things we pursue, such as Romans 1:18-32.

You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God."   I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away.  God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.

I believe it's possible for a believer to harden their own heart and ignore what they know.  But, a nonbeliever can't even know they need God without his hand to open their eyes.  Therefore, if God chooses not to open their eyes then he has at the very least allowed their hearts to stay hard.  This is a condition which we are born into.

[shawn]

You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God."   I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away.  God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.

That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him, then all will be in all. How do you understand this verse?

(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}

CHB

I can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture.  If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire.  Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth.  I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.

[LS]

That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him

If that is true then why these?

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!" ?

As silly as that sounds, it is an honest question.  The way those passages makes sense to me, is if the one was in danger of not being saved. 


Hey, I just want to thank you all for listening to my thoughts and for challenging me and being so kind even in disagreement. I hope we challenged each other in good ways.  Shawn, WhiteWings, jabcat and thinktank especially took time to converse with me and I enjoyed that.  I'll continue reading here, but I really do appreciate that you all share a more common belief and this place is a safe haven for ya'll and I wish you nothing but peace and joy in our LORD.

:HeartThrob:

[shawn]

That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him

If that is true then why these?

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!" ?

As silly as that sounds, it is an honest question.  The way those passages makes sense to me, is if the one was in danger of not being saved. 


Hey, I just want to thank you all for listening to my thoughts and for challenging me and being so kind even in disagreement. I hope we challenged each other in good ways.  Shawn, WhiteWings, jabcat and thinktank especially took time to converse with me and I enjoyed that.  I'll continue reading here, but I really do appreciate that you all share a more common belief and this place is a safe haven for ya'll and I wish you nothing but peace and joy in our LORD.

:HeartThrob:

Is it possible they rejoice not because they would have been destroyed but for some other reason?  We know there is still judgement...for the believer and nonbeliever alike.  Is the rejoicing possibly over an issue relating to judgement yet not be destruction? 

[WhiteWings]

(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}

Shawn I understand what you wrote isn't your view. So this message are just thoughts concerning the various views.

I can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture.  If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire.  Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth.  I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.

That's a way of look at it I guess. Bit weird that all verses took place in either heaven or earth. But this one verse suddenly is taking place somewhere else in the universe. I've read views that LoF is in the core of the sun.
I've also seen the view that LoF is in the center of the earth. The verse states on the earth so that excludes LoF because that is in the earth.
Then I ask myself: What about the saints that a buried in the earth

The weird thing is that lot's of ETs hold KJV as the measuring stick for all translations. KJV and other translations include "under the earth"....
BTW for me under the earth = in the earth
The original Greek also has in/under the earth. From Strong:
5270 u`poka,tw hupokato {hoop-ok-at'-o}
Meaning:  1) under, underneath

Below the verse in all Bibles I have in electronic format. No picking and chosing done to endorse any view.

ASV  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

BBE  Revelation 5:13 And to my ears came the voice of everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and of all things which are in them, saying, To him who is seated on the high seat, and to the Lamb, may blessing and honour and glory and power be given for ever and ever.

CJB  Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea- yes, everything in them- saying, "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb belong praise, honor, glory and power forever and ever!"

CSB  Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say: Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to the One seated on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!

ERV  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

ESV  Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"

GWN  Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea. Every creature in those places was singing, "To the one who sits on the throne and to the lamb be praise, honor, glory, and power forever and ever."

KJG  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

KJV  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

NAB  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."

NAS  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

NAU  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

NET  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature– in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them– singing: "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!"

NIB  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

NIV  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

NJB  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard all the living things in creation -- everything that lives in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, crying: To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be all praise, honour, glory and power, for ever and ever.

NKJ  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

NLT  Revelation 5:13 And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever."

NRS  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"

RSV  Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"

RWB  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.

WEB  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, {be} to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.

YLT  Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

[WhiteWings]

If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!"?

People even rejoice winter has ended and spring set in. But why? It was certain spring would return.
Why did you rejoce at the resurrection of Jesus? Wasn't it a 100% certainty?

^KJVRev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
==> Did those people doubt prophesy and feared the marriage never would take place?

[WhiteWings]

^KJV1Co 15:50-52 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
^KJVAct 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

For incorruptible people ED simply can't be true because incorruptible things can't be destroyed. The question is: Is this verse only about the brethren?
http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/Charles_Russell/

[shawn]

(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}

Shawn I understand what you wrote isn't your view. So this message are just thoughts concerning the various views.

I can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture.  If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire.  Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth.  I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.

That's a way of look at it I guess. Bit weird that all verses took place in either heaven or earth. But this one verse suddenly is taking place somewhere else in the universe. I've read views that LoF is in the core of the sun.
I've also seen the view that LoF is in the center of the earth. The verse states on the earth so that excludes LoF because that is in the earth.
Then I ask myself: What about the saints that a buried in the earth

The weird thing is that lot's of ETs hold KJV as the measuring stick for all translations. KJV and other translations include "under the earth"....
BTW for me under the earth = in the earth
The original Greek also has in/under the earth. From Strong:
5270 u`poka,tw hupokato {hoop-ok-at'-o}
Meaning:  1) under, underneath

Below the verse in all Bibles I have in electronic format. No picking and chosing done to endorse any view.

ASV  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

BBE  Revelation 5:13 And to my ears came the voice of everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and of all things which are in them, saying, To him who is seated on the high seat, and to the Lamb, may blessing and honour and glory and power be given for ever and ever.

CJB  Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea- yes, everything in them- saying, "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb belong praise, honor, glory and power forever and ever!"

CSB  Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say: Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to the One seated on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever!

ERV  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever.

ESV  Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"

GWN  Revelation 5:13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea. Every creature in those places was singing, "To the one who sits on the throne and to the lamb be praise, honor, glory, and power forever and ever."

KJG  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

KJV  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

NAB  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: "To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever."

NAS  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

NAU  Revelation 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

NET  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature– in heaven, on earth, under the earth, in the sea, and all that is in them– singing: "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and ruling power forever and ever!"

NIB  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honour and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

NIV  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

NJB  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard all the living things in creation -- everything that lives in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, crying: To the One seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be all praise, honour, glory and power, for ever and ever.

NKJ  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"

NLT  Revelation 5:13 And then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. They sang: "Blessing and honor and glory and power belong to the one sitting on the throne and to the Lamb forever and ever."

NRS  Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"

RSV  Revelation 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!"

RWB  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.

WEB  Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, {be} to him that sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.

YLT  Revelation 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

I have a feeling anything heavenly and possibly Gehenna like doesn't occur in our 4D universe.  I believe timelessness exists in another brane outside of our observable world.

Nothing more fun than combining sciencific theory and Bible.   :happygrin:

[shawn]

I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.

IMO pastors are not spiritual clean. They are bound by doctrine. Imagine what happens to teh job of a protestant preacher that suddenly starts preaching Catholic things.
I think the truth was availble to all who spoke Greek. But then during translation things got lost. Doctrines of pagan origin poluted things even more. And today it's even blasphemy to consider Father could be that lake. And because that fear of investigation the truth fades away.

I think you are right on the money.  I have a pastor friend phd in Old Testament.  Sharp guy.  But, try to pin him down on free will or eternal torture and he grows very uncomfortable and becomes very careful with his language.  He believes in "eternal punishment" but I believe that is in the form of ED not ET.  But, he is a southern baptist preacher and no way will he come out and say that.  I believe these pastors are put in a spot if they do investigate.  Once they realize the truth how do they deal with it?  Do they give up their calling? 

[shawn]

If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!"?

People even rejoice winter has ended and spring set in. But why? It was certain spring would return.
Why did you rejoce at the resurrection of Jesus? Wasn't it a 100% certainty?

^KJVRev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
==> Did those people doubt prophesy and feared the marriage never would take place?

Good response.  I think it's possible to rejoice over a soul who finds Christ not because they would have been destroyed but because they found Christ.

[WhiteWings]

I think you are right on the money.  I have a pastor friend phd in Old Testament.  Sharp guy.  But, try to pin him down on free will or eternal torture and he grows very uncomfortable and becomes very careful with his language.  He believes in "eternal punishment"

There is a difference between:
Eternal punishment => ED
and
Eternal punishing => ET

but I believe that is in the form of ED not ET.  But, he is a southern baptist preacher and no way will he come out and say that.  I believe these pastors are put in a spot if they do investigate.  Once they realize the truth how do they deal with it?  Do they give up their calling? 

I think most just chose their sermon topics differently.

[Molly]

Looking at it from a human point of view [for we are made in his image]--

If people come on this board and make a lot of trouble, what do the mods do?

warnings, warnings, warnings, and--

a)eternal torment

b)eternal destruction

c)aionian banishment


Aren't mods like God? :happygrin:



Why would God do differently?



14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

--Rev 22

[jabcat]

Blessings.  

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
  neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
  so are my ways higher than your ways
  and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9


The Lake of Fire is involved, serving its purpose (21:8)

Rev. 21
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain;  the first things have passed away."
5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new " And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

Rev. 22
2in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come " And let the one who hears say, "Come " And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

[WhiteWings]

Aren't mods like God? :happygrin:

There is a God of creation. A god of the world. So perhaps.... gods of the cyberworld :laughing7:

[Molly]

...and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

That's us. :Sparkletooth:

its gates will never be closed;

But this doesn't mean that everyone can enter.  In fact, it only specifically mentions the kings of the earth entering.


15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


"without"

G1854
εξω
exō
ex'-o
Adverb from G1537; out (side, of doors), literally or figuratively: - away, forth, (with-) out (of, -ward), strange.


This is very similar to what happened to Cain.  He is sent out of the presence of God.


a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

--Gen 4




27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:

--Rev 21

[jabcat]

Clarification from my understanding;  the kings bring their treasures into it.  I believe that's one reason the ecclesia are saved now - to participate in bringing the rest in - God's work of the ages.

Following up my previous post;  

If God punishes most of humanity forever, He is sovereign and His will be done.  If He wipes most of it out forever, again, He is sovereign and His will be done - and we need to bow before Him.  However, for some reason not of my own merit, I believe he's allowed me to see that He will do everything He says in the scriptures, including punishing and destroying absolutely everything that's not of God - but that His Plan is to ultimately redeem and reconcile His whole creation - even though much of it will be as through fire.

The Lake of Fire is right in the middle of the occurrences in the verses quoted above.  A key then seems to be, what is the ultimate purpose of the Lake of Fire?  To torture, to completely annihilate, or to renew?  In my mind though, there are many other things to take into account - like hundreds of verses that must reconcile.

So, is God's Plan "I have created all this" to torture most of it [redeem a little], completely annihilate most of it [redeem a little], or redeem and reconcile all of it.

He will help us all know in His timing, whether the end of the Lord is retribution, annihilation, or restoration/full of mercy.

Since you have kept My Word with the endurance that I give you..  Rev. 3:10

We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord's dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.  Js. 5:11

Even though most will take the broad road to destruction [of all that cannot enter in] I believe through Jesus, God brings life - not just for the select few - but that He will reconcile His creation and be, not all in some, but All in All as the scriptures proclaim.  

Blessings and love to the saints, and praise and glory be to Him alone Who is worthy.  

[CHB]

You posted in another thread, " It was set up to bring us to futility and reach out for God."   I completely agree with that. Imho, As we face those trials, some reach out to God, but some turn away.  God is patient, but allows each to either draw nearer to Him, or to reject Him.

That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him, then all will be in all. How do you understand this verse?

(Rev. 5:13) And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. {or the ages}

CHB

I can tell you the ET and the ED interpretation of that scripture.  If you look it talks about heaven and earth and it does not mention the lake of fire.  Those who are sent to either torture forever or destruction are not included in those in heaven or on earth.  I'm not saying I buy that or don't buy that but I know that is one point I have heard others make.

Where do you think the lake of fire is located? Maybe there isn't any forever torturing or destruction that is why it isn't mentioned?

CHB

[CHB]

That is true in this life but all will eventually accept him

If that is true then why these?

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

If it's just a matter of time and all will eventually repent, what is the great rejoicing about? It's a done deal ... why wouldn't they rather rejoice over the 99 righteous persons instead for having "got it" sooner, or roll their eyes and sigh when the one finally repented and say, "Finally ... took him long enough!" ?

As silly as that sounds, it is an honest question.  The way those passages makes sense to me, is if the one was in danger of not being saved. 


Hey, I just want to thank you all for listening to my thoughts and for challenging me and being so kind even in disagreement. I hope we challenged each other in good ways.  Shawn, WhiteWings, jabcat and thinktank especially took time to converse with me and I enjoyed that.  I'll continue reading here, but I really do appreciate that you all share a more common belief and this place is a safe haven for ya'll and I wish you nothing but peace and joy in our LORD.

:HeartThrob:

First thing I try to remember when reading Jesus words is, while Jesus was alive there was no Savior as yet. It was after Jesus was crucified that sins were forgiven.

CHB