Annihilationism verses UR.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi James...  :cloud9:

2 more of my favorites... :boogie:

in Him we live and move and exist (Acts 17:28)

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.  John 15:5

Let me point something out here.  I'm a hypocrite.  Because I struggle and stress and "try to be a good Christian" to the point of often trusting in my own flesh, abilities, and efforts to try and please Him.  If anyone's read the things I've shared over the years, they may know that I do believe in obedience, submission to Him, taking up our cross, etc.  However, I was raised in a "performance" or lose it and go to hell mindset, and I've practiced that much of my life.  And even though vestiges of that are still present, I've learned and am learning, as the old hymn says, "the arm of flesh will fail you, you dare not trust your own".  So I'm still searching for a more proper level of walking in the Spirit and letting the works in me be the WORKS OF CHRIST IN ME rather than struggling in my own effort.

It probably has something to do with this being such an important and interesting topic for me.  It's something I'm still trying (there's that word again :mblush:) to find the balance in and learn - learning to trust Him above all else - and to give Him glory and credit.  

God bless, James.   :bigGrin:

here is a big "AMEN" for you brother!

You are as the mighty Oak, brother J... growing taller and taller and taller, ...right before our eyes...  :thumbsup:

...willieH   :cloud9:

[Beloved Servant]

Hi Willie,

It was May 25.
I spend it alone with the Lord like so many others.
The peace He gives I simply can not live without anymore.

For me to go back into the world would take an "act of God."

Thanks for showing His love.

—dave

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Rebecca... :hithere:

:cloud9: Jesus said He only did what He saw His Father do. Now while I think it's perfectly plausible and even likely He literally saw into the realm where Father is 24/7, I also think He was referring to what He "saw" in the scriptures.

IMO, the rest comes from doing what His Spirit is telling you to do at that moment in time, for that day. And so, getting our daily bread and eating it in the light of the candlestick.

I think this is why He said to take no thought for tomorrow, because if you do you're getting ahead of His instructions that He may not give you UNTIL tomorrow. Not doing that, the root of which, is probably some form of fear (isn't it always?). Blessings...

Wow!   :thumbsup:  a big "AMEN", for you too, sister R!  :cloud9:

Did you & James, jump into the "wisdom pool"  :teaching: for a quick dip?  :laughing7:

:first:  Great stuff!

...willieH  :happygrin:

[willieH]

Hi Willie,

It was May 25.
I spend it alone with the Lord like so many others.
The peace He gives I simply can not live without anymore.

For me to go back into the world would take an "act of God."

Thanks for showing His love.

—dave

:boyheart:  Hey... you are a great son of His, I am proud to know as my friend!  :friendstu:

If you spent it alone, with Him... in the end, I guess, you spent it with us all!  :grouppray: 

...willieH  :friendstu:

[jabcat]

You're being too kind brother Willi.  Every good gift comes from the Father  :bigGrin:.  Thanks for the encouragement though.  

Stay tuned, I'll probably say something *stupid soon, and you can help me out with it.   :laughing7:

(Happy Birthday Dave)     *:this: wasn't it 

[pickr]

let alone the multitudes that annihilationism would suggest

Hi pickr - speaking for myself, I do not believe it will be "multitudes" who are utterly destroyed, but that's only my opinion.  I understand your reasoning, but for me the sheer number of passages that say the wicked are destroyed or perish or "are no more" is simply overwhelming.  I just wanted to clarify that on my part, and mean you no disrespect.   :mblush:

Hi LS,

No disrespect detected.

But if you understood my reasoning, perhaps you'd like to take a stab at reconciling a godly love that never ceases with your understanding of annihilation. And whether it is multitudes or only one is immaterial, really. The inherent contradictions still remain.

Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

Blessings to you,

Andy

P.S. Of course, those of us in the UR camp have to harmonize the scriptures, too. Not placing any burden on you that we are not under as well.

P.P.S. I'm not around all that often, but I'll be back! :)

[LS]

Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

Scripture tells us that when we embrace evil, God turns us over to our own depravity. (Rom 1:28-32) 

Scripture also tells us that there are some who hate the light. (John 3:20).

I sincerely believe there are some who so embrace evil that they hate God, and I believe it is, indeed, loving and merciful to allow them to cease to exist rather than to force them into His light and presence - the very thing they hate - forevermore. 

Some would say that once the veil is removed and we see Him as He is, everyone would desire to be with Him. But scripture does not support that, as we know that angels in His very presence abandoned their home with Him.

That is how I see it, though I'm sure most here would disagree.

Peace to you as well, Andy  :grouppray:

[pickr]

Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

I sincerely believe there are some who so embrace evil that they hate God, and I believe it is, indeed, loving and merciful to allow them to cease to exist rather than to force them into His light and presence - the very thing they hate - forevermore. 

Yet we are still left with the fact that God loves such a person in the very way Paul described to the Corinthians. Loved ones are missed and mourned when they go away, and the idea of a loved one's utter destruction is too horrible to even contemplate. I cannot believe God intends Himself to be in endless misery and mourning over those He could not save.

Some would say that once the veil is removed and we see Him as He is, everyone would desire to be with Him. But scripture does not support that, as we know that angels in His very presence abandoned their home with Him.

I think what I would say is that the prophetic word already has been uttered that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord... all to the glory of God. I don't pretend to know how that will work itself through time and dispensations, exactly, but I trust that this prophecy is a true one.

Thanks for the reply, LS.

Andy

[LS]

P.S. Would it be "self-seeking" of God to save those who reject and hate Him?

"Love ... is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:4)




edited to add - oops! We were posting at the same time! You're welcome for the reply, and I appreciate your gentle response.  :grouppray:

[Shadow]

P.S. Would it be "self-seeking" of God to save those who reject and hate Him?

"Love ... is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:4)

It's self seeking to force a person to come into existence in the first place, KNOWING they would reject and hate him, I mean what's the point

Why not bypass all the evil and suffering in the world and create perfection in the first place

FWIW I don't mind not existing

[reFORMer]

Why not bypass all the evil and suffering in the world and create perfection in the first place

Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

[Shadow]

[
Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Oh really, where does it say we are going to be divine beings that are going to become REALLY, REALLY BIG

BTW, my previous response was directed at THIS REALLY BIG GOD not being forced to save people that don't love him - my question why bring them into existence in the first place when he KNOWS they won't love him, remember I was addressing "self-seeking"

[shawn]

[
Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Oh really, where does it say we are going to be divine beings that are going to become REALLY, REALLY BIG

BTW, my previous response was directed at THIS REALLY BIG GOD not being forced to save people that don't love him - my question why bring them into existence in the first place when he KNOWS they won't love him, remember I was addressing "self-seeking"

You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

[thinktank]

Go back and re-read how Paul defines love. Somehow, you have to square that with all those perishing and destroying scriptures you can't ignore. I'd be interested in how you'd go about that.

Scripture tells us that when we embrace evil, God turns us over to our own depravity. (Rom 1:28-32) 

Scripture also tells us that there are some who hate the light. (John 3:20).

I sincerely believe there are some who so embrace evil that they hate God, and I believe it is, indeed, loving and merciful to allow them to cease to exist rather than to force them into His light and presence - the very thing they hate - forevermore. 

Some would say that once the veil is removed and we see Him as He is, everyone would desire to be with Him. But scripture does not support that, as we know that angels in His very presence abandoned their home with Him.

That is how I see it, though I'm sure most here would disagree.

Peace to you as well, Andy  :grouppray:

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:) but here's something I pondered on. Most people or all people do not know Jesus Christ in full and especially evil people. We only see through the glass darkly and nobody has had a full revelation of the love of Jesus Christ. So how much can love change a person?
I think love can change people greatly, how many people truly love evil more than love?
Unlike Satan who once was part of heaven, people do not know God as much as he did.


Also during the 1000 millenium peace, I don't belive that Jesus will be accessible to the masses, but only to the saints, for flesh and blood cannot see God, so the only source of truth that people will get from God during the millenium would be from the Jewish nation, Abraham, Issac and Jacob, so even then they don't get a full idea of God.
(this is something i'm working on, so don't quote me on this bit above)

The disciples asked Jesus

Who then can be saved?
With men things are impossible, but with God all things are possible

I think that there proves that God will not force anybody to make him love him, otherwise he would say "im God fools I can do whatever I want" and I think the idea is absurd. A man doesn't woe a girl by taking her by force but romances her and then she can say yes or no.
There's nothing glorifying about God forcing people to love him, but it is glory on the other hand for people who willingly worship him because of his absolute brilliance that even the wicked have to take off their hats and say truly truly you are the rightfull God. There are scriptures which do indicate that all will be saved, such as

"in Adam all die, but in Christ all shall be made alive"

Howeven i'm not one of those who simply ignores those other scriptures, which point to damnation, but in the context that God saves everyone, perhaps those damnation scriptures are stating something, such as punishment for the wicked, even though they might get saved eventually.

[Shadow]

You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

So you really think we had a choice as to whether or not we wanted to exist, wherever did you get that idea from

Forgive me for using the brain I was given and daring to question anything, forgive me for not being a stepfordized clone that just accepts things

How DARE I question the prospect that that majority of creation is headed for perdition, how utterly evil, thoughtless and self centered of me

[Shadow]

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:)  

So after 400+ posts, you have thrown down the gauntlet, stopped pussyfutting around  and revealed your true purpose for coming on here, why were you not honest initially

[thinktank]

[
Because GOD IS BIG! and He is making us in His Image and Likeness. How can you be a Divine being that is BIG, REALLY BIG if you never go through anything?

Oh really, where does it say we are going to be divine beings that are going to become REALLY, REALLY BIG

BTW, my previous response was directed at THIS REALLY BIG GOD not being forced to save people that don't love him - my question why bring them into existence in the first place when he KNOWS they won't love him, remember I was addressing "self-seeking"

We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future, but rather, that God sets the rules, gives us a garden of Eden to play in and says, now do whatever you want, and that includes murdering, such as what Cain did or to worship such as Abraham. This is the only way one can make sense of this world as to why God allows the innocent to suffer brutality. We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited, we do have choice in what actions we take and this includes your parents having you born, you did not choose that, but they did and you have to live with that and choose to make your own choices, to forgive or to hate, etc. If you cannot forgive, even if you want too then you need guidance and help and that is normal. Since you are here take advantage of the fact that rules are much less rigid than in heaven, and to me that is a blessing that we can make mistakes and learn from them.

[thinktank]

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists :winkgrin:)  

So after 400+ posts, you have thrown down the gauntlet, stopped pussyfutting around  and revealed your true purpose for coming on here, why were you not honest initially

It was a joke I'm not an idiot. I'm greatfull that the people here allow me to post the the things I say, for my posts are not mainstream as such, so it's nice that they handle my posts, sometime I would rather they be a bit calmer, but nevertheless have shown great patience with some of my contraversial posts.

God bless the people here in Jesus name.

[micah7:9]

 I dont accept either Annihilationism teaching or Eternal Torment teaching, they are conjectures of men, not founded on the Word of God. I do not understand why the believers and saints cannot discuss the Word of God with all its wonders... and leave man religions, theorys, and thoughts to the discussions and debates regarding mans religions, theorys, and deductions; throw them all together with the current events of the day and politics...
If the believers and saints discuss and debate, let it be with reproof and corrections found in the Word, not the encyclopedias and mans work of mans thoughts and queeries of the hows and whys man of mans small amount of knowledge.
I like the sound of this   
Rom 5:19  for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happy3:

We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future

Really?  Why not?  Because HE being IN CONTROL, displaces YOU? :dunno:

The TEMPLE of God is MAN, within the Heart of man -- 2 Cor 6:16

Who is it really, which "sits in the temple" deciding he/she is "GOD" -- 2 Thess 2:4 -- T-tank?   Is it not YOU?  Is it not ME?

Is there some "red guy with a pitchfork" inside YOU, deciding what YOU shall do?  Or is it YOU?  I can't and won't speak for you, but I know that of myself, I can DO NOTHING concerning GOD, for I am not greater than was my Savior -- John 5:19

It is WE which must DIE to OURSELVES -- 1 Cor 15:31 -- Rom 12:1-2 -- that GOD might LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20 -- we DESTROY adversity, by eliminating OURSELVES from the decision making "choosings"... in favor of HIM and HIS "CHOOSINGS"

How do you explain such as this? --->  Eph 1:11 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:28

It will be interesting to see how you can create evasiveness to these...  :laughing7:

but rather, that God sets the rules, gives us a garden of Eden to play in and says, now do whatever you want

What a very HEARTY EXAGGERATION!  Where in the Scriptures is this noted, T-tank?  Where does it say that GOD told man to "do whatever you want"?

and that includes murdering, such as what Cain did or to worship such as Abraham.

Here in PLAIN English is what went down concerning Cain & Abel... Again, it will be interesting to see how you attempt to create evasiveness to it...  :laughing7:

What you (as do most) fail to consider is that the KNOWLEDGE of this "murder" was already KNOWN prior to its actual physical manifestation.  :dontknow:  And if indeed it was PERFECTLY KNOWN before it occured, it (as manifest) could not have been avoided, otherwise the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE which already "KNEW" of it, would be concluded as  IMPERFECT.  (like many "predict" the outcome of a horse race or football season).

Conclusively, the PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of it (the murder), being PERFECT (which means COMPLETE), means that this deed could not be AVOIDED within physical manifestation, otherwise the event, in being "avoided" shows the KNOWLEDGE of IT to be INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT!

This is the only way one can make sense of this world as to why God allows the innocent to suffer brutality.

As long as you remain in the "box" T-tank, which esteems itself as having the "truth", you shall learn no more, and continue to ignore.  However, if you might step OUT of your box... you have much to see which shall be availed to you through the eyes of REASON... 

I won't say you are wrong, just that you are veiled... not having taken into consideration that this realm was PERFECTLY outlined before even 1 second of it took place.  God, in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?

We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited

This is WAY over-estimating the power of choice.  ALL CHOICE is LIMITED, to options available to choose FROM... If my dog needs to "pee"... she has the "choice" to pee In the house or Outside the house...  she has no other options, say In the walls or On the roof, or In the car, or On the top of the fence...  even though these are existent options, they are not AVAILABLE to her... 

Your "choosing" is confined in the very same way, you just have not considered that your "choosing" is confined.  Something CONFINED is not FREE, nor is it UNLIMITED. 

I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  :laughing7:

:laughhand:  In case you missed it, here it comes again:

I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  :laughing7:


Let me give you example...

EXAMPLE --- Let's say that you contend that "BY YOUR CHOICE" you can "choose" to EAT anything you like...  :grin:

Hmmm, can you EAT your car?  Or can you EAT your house?  How about EATING your favorite football team?  Or maybe EATING the street in front of your house? How about EATING the MOON, can you do that? Or EAT Mount Everest?  :laughhand:

we do have choice in what actions we take and this includes your parents having you born, you did not choose that, but they did and you have to live with that and choose to make your own choices

What cop-out is this...   :Whistle:

You had no CHOICE in being born, but you have (are FORCED) to live with it?  That sounds like your entire LIFE began by the insertion of you into a scenario in which your CHOOSING shall be LIMITED throughout that LIFE, but you had NO CHOICE as to entering this scenario of LIMITED, predecided choosing!

The labeling or categorizing of the LIMITED "choices" which were eventually made AVAILABLE to you, was also done WITHOUT your consent (whether they would be considered evil or good)... EVIL choices were declared EVIL before YOU had a chance to consider them... as well as GOOD, so your "choosing" was further inhibited and done aside from, you and your power to "choose" from them.

Not only that, here are a few of MYRIADS of examples as to the LIMITATION of "choice":

(1) the ERA in which you were born, inhibits your choosing -- a person born in 500 A.D. could not "choose" to take the subway to work, or read a Stephen King novel...

(2) the parents you were born to LIMITS your choosing -- a person born to a homeless parent, can't just "choose" to buy a new Porche, or take a European vacation in Rome...

(3) the gender you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a female cannot "choose" to be a father

(4) the city you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a person born in Central Kansas, cannot "choose" to go the beach...

(5) the person striken with cancer, cannot just "choose" to be healthy...

(6) the person amidst a famine, cannot just "choose" to not be hungry...

(7) the person born Chinese, cannot just "choose" to be a Caucasion...

(8) the person born with no arms cannot "choose" to play the piano...

(9) the wealthiest person in the world cannot by their "choice", ...make another to love them...

I could name things all day, that coincide with REASON, ...and that firmly display that the power of "CHOICE" is ALWAYS inhibited, confined, or LIMITED in EVERY INSTANCE, by the OPTIONS which GOD has made available to "choose from"...

to forgive or to hate, etc. If you cannot forgive, even if you want too then you need guidance and help and that is normal. Since you are here take advantage of the fact that rules are much less rigid than in heaven, and to me that is a blessing that we can make mistakes and learn from them.

The "rules" are the same here as they are in Heaven... We have been PURPOSED to break them in the LIVING DISPLAY [man] of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as ETERNALLY and UNCHANGINGLY, ...KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God, which DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured.

Get used to it my new friend, T-tank... this LIFE is NOT about YOU... nor about me... this is about OUR GOD, and HIS wonderful WISDOMS revealed, which include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. 

The sooner that anyone in humility, take ones eyes off ONESELF (and ones "choosings"), the sooner that one shall KNOW GOD, and that ALL is emergent FROM [by] HIM, and FOR HIM (not "for" you or "for" me) -- Col 1:16

Then within the HUMILITY and MAJESTY of the ABANDONMENT of SELF, ...shall one KNOW that YHVH is GOD... and that we are HIS PLEASURE, ...COMPLETELY HIS, ...to do with as He so pleases -- Rom 9:20 [why hast thou MADE ME THUS?] -- Isaiah 46:10 [I WILL DO all MY pleasure --- that being with -- ALL THINGS not yet done!]

...willieH  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

Hello willie, thank you for replying to my post in a gentle manner.

Quote from: thinktank on Today at 11:34:17 AM
We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future

Really?  Why not?  Because HE being IN CONTROL, displaces YOU?

No because I belive that love is about service and gives, these old fashioned type of gods, just did things almost like scientists where life is just a game. But I believe that God is similar to an earthly parents who does not use a remote control to control the kids but rather steer them in the right direction with first a nourishing environment [baby] =(garden of eden) then into [toddler] (This is what you cannot don't touch that socket] kiddo (Let them on the bike and fall off)= The fall, [ Teenager] 10 commandments [house rules] Young adult {Jesus demonstrates his love] Adult [ Choose this day whom you will serve good or evil]

grandparent [died, but resurected either resurected towards, reliving childish youth, or resurected into judgment,= miserable grandparent, until they come to the light of Jesus [prozac]:)

disclaimer
I don't advocate drug usage

I need some help getting this right, lol. Cardinal is good with these bracket things.


Who is it really, which "sits in the temple" deciding he/she is "GOD" -- 2 Thess 2:4 -- T-tank?   Is it not YOU?  Is it not ME?

Yes we are as gods knowing good and evil. Choose this day whom you will serve God or mammon.



Is there some "red guy with a pitchfork" inside YOU, deciding what YOU shall do?  Or is it YOU?  I can't and won't speak for you, but I know that of myself, I can DO NOTHING concerning GOD, for I am not greater than was my Savior -- John 5:19

The devil is in the details but so is God. God ultimately is the source of all things so whether I do evil or good God gave me that ability of life. But to do good is a hard thing who can bear it, but Christ empowers us to do good.

It is WE which must DIE to OURSELVES -- 1 Cor 15:31 -- Rom 12:1-2 -- that GOD might LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20 -- we DESTROY adversity, by eliminating OURSELVES from the decision making "choosings"... in favor of HIM and HIS "CHOOSINGS"

He said crucify yourself daily

It's not a once done deal, we must continually resist the carnality of the flesh that desires to lust and pride. Therefore even as Christians we choose between Gods way and ours. To add a little extra dimension to this, even if one crucifies oneself we are still in the drivers seat, God is the codriver, who directs our path. If God is doing the driving once we become a Christian, then by now the world would be Christ like.  God seldom gives precise directions, he gives encouragment and so forth but many things such as choosing where to work is something we must use wisdom for.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.


What a very HEARTY EXAGGERATION!  Where in the Scriptures is this noted, T-tank?  Where does it say that GOD told man to "do whatever you want"?

Ok let me be more precise, God gives the rules e.g 10 commandments and we make choices within the limits that God has given mankind.

What you (as do most) fail to consider is that the KNOWLEDGE of this "murder" was already KNOWN prior to its actual physical manifestation.    And if indeed it was PERFECTLY KNOWN before it occured, it (as manifest) could not have been avoided, otherwise the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE which already "KNEW" of it, would be concluded as  IMPERFECT.  (like many "predict" the outcome of a horse race or football season).

Conclusively, the PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of it (the murder), being PERFECT (which means COMPLETE), means that this deed could not be AVOIDED within physical manifestation, otherwise the event, in being "avoided" shows the KNOWLEDGE of IT to be INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT!

Yes and God allowed it to happen despite prior knowledge, notice that he allowed the very thing {Thou shall not murder] that Gods will is against, which supports my post of cain having the choice to make that choice, why didn't cain just thief a sheep from Abel if he was inclined towards evil, but instead chooses to slew him out of his jealousy. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts and malice said Jesus.


As long as you remain in the "box" T-tank, which esteems itself as having the "truth", you shall learn no more, and continue to ignore.  However, if you might step OUT of your box... you have much to see which shall be availed to you through the eyes of REASON...

I won't say you are wrong, just that you are veiled... not having taken into consideration that this realm was PERFECTLY outlined before even 1 second of it took place.  God, in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?

I am addressing situations that happen in this age, such as shadow who is not happy, NOW currently- and how to deal with the miserable conditions here upon Earth as they stand, therefore seeing things inside a box is inevitable. In fact as I tend to think outside of the box here is a quote for ya.

"All people think inside a box, either the box expands or it contracts for only God is unlimited"
ThinkTank

Maybe in generations to come they'll be quoting thinktank :)



Your "choosing" is confined in the very same way, you just have not considered that your "choosing" is confined.  Something CONFINED is not FREE, nor is it UNLIMITED.

You seemed to have missed this part in bold

We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited

If my dog needs to "pee"... she has the "choice" to pee In the house or Outside the house...  she has no other options, say In the walls or On the roof, or In the car, or On the top of the fence...  even though these are existent options, they are not AVAILABLE to her...

She's not allowed to pee on the wall, cruel man, call animal rescue quick.;) Nah im sure you take good care of her. :winkgrin:


I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  laughing7

laughhand  In case you missed it, here it comes again:

Ok that one thing I can do hmmm, got it, I'll give ya a clue, it's part of my screen name;)

Do I get a $5000 prize?

Hmmm, can you EAT your car?  Or can you EAT your house?  How about EATING your favorite football team?  Or maybe EATING the street in front of your house? How about EATING the MOON, can you do that? Or EAT Mount Everest?  laughhand

I think many women comment that they would eat David Beckam. Hansel and Gretel also eat a house made of candy. As for mount everest, if ye have faith the size of a mustard seed ye shall say unto that mountain, be thou changed into Mcdonalds and it shall be given unto you.
:icon_joker:


What cop-out is this...   Whistle

You had no CHOICE in being born, but you have (are FORCED) to live with it?  That sounds like your entire LIFE began by the insertion of you into a scenario in which your CHOOSING shall be LIMITED throughout that LIFE, but you had NO CHOICE as to entering this scenario of LIMITED, predecided choosing!

The labeling or categorizing of the LIMITED "choices" which were eventually made AVAILABLE to you, was also done WITHOUT your consent (whether they would be considered evil or good)... EVIL choices were declared EVIL before YOU had a chance to consider them... as well as GOOD, so your "choosing" was further inhibited and done aside from, you and your power to "choose" from them

That's what I'm saying, but people throughout history continually look at what they CANNOT do instead of enjoying and appreciating what they CAN do and everything we can do has been given to us by God, but by our disobedience and rebellion we go against that which is good and do that which is evil.

The argument that we are slaves to sin is no longer valid in todays world, for God said, we are either slaves to sin or to righteousness. God came to Empower us to do that which we could not do before the death of Christ. Doing good is much harder than evil, but God never said it would be easy, in fact he continually said its a tough road, the road is narrow that leads to life. But the thing is, imagine how much better life would be if people stopped being so selfish and instead did that which is good.

The more people that do good, the easier it is for everyone else to do good also, it has a knock on effect, and this is one thing that Jesus has accomplished, but even now the amount of good that Christians do in the world is pretty poor and the world should be a better place to live in, but many Christians still do that which is evil, try and explain that?

Look at towns that have a unselfish attitude, their community service and kindness to their neigbours makes living a delight, because they all practice it, but try being the light in a community of darkness and it'll be hell, it takes great courage and the dark forces there will not enjoy your presence.

Its Gods will that all be saved, even now

Now is come salvation

It's Gods will all be healed, but the church is too weak to perform healing miracles, where are the churches that heal the sick? More interested in religion and apearing holy than ministering to the outcasts and excercising the power of Jesus, didn't the apostle Paul say that in the last days, they would have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.





(1) the ERA in which you were born, inhibits your choosing -- a person born in 500 A.D. could not "choose" to take the subway to work, or read a Stephen King novel...

Nay, but they can choose to jump on a horse or to take a mule such as Jesus did. They can listen to bible stories or listen to the great exploits of Ceasar.

(2) the parents you were born to LIMITS your choosing -- a person born to a homeless parent, can't just "choose" to buy a new Porche, or take a European vacation in Rome...

No, but they can determine in their heart that they will not make the same mistakes as their parents, the poor of this world tend to have poor attitudes, weak attitudes, but some of the poor develop a good attitude rags to riches stories are not just fantasy but for real, check them out. The reasons why the poor are poor are as numerous as books, obviosly some are victims, but many are victims of their own dissmal attitude. What ye reap ya sow.

(3) the gender you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a female cannot "choose" to be a father

These days I'm not so sure :laughing7:

(4) the city you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a person born in Central Kansas, cannot "choose" to go the beach...

Wanna bet!

(5) the person striken with cancer, cannot just "choose" to be healthy...

No but they can determine in their heart that health is what God provided for them and paid with stripes for. Any sick among you, call the elders and they shall pray and they shall recover. Miracle stories again are for real, check them out.

(6) the person amidst a famine, cannot just "choose" to not be hungry...

The man in India might disagree, he has lived for 70 years without food!

(7) the person born Chinese, cannot just "choose" to be a Caucasion...

No but they can enjoy their ethnicity and make the most of their culture and the enjoyments that they have or they can live life in jealousy of their caucasion cousins

(8) the person born with no arms cannot "choose" to play the piano...
I saw a woman with no arms, who looked after her baby by herself and changed nappies with her feet!

(9) the wealthiest person in the world cannot by their "choice", ...make another to love them...

But how much many people would love them if they gave of their riches to them in their despair, would the starving person appreciate/love the kind person who would give of their substance to feed them, of course they would. But by their "choice" some do not give and so how can they be loved?
Bill gates for example is a very wealthy man who is loved by many, including me, who has gave billions of his wealth to charities.



The "rules" are the same here as they are in Heaven... We have been PURPOSED to break them in the LIVING DISPLAY [man] of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as ETERNALLY and UNCHANGINGLY, ...KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God, which DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured.

I don't think it helps the wicked to know this, for they want an excuse to sin, blaming God for their misfortune or evil, that is something that Job did, but God told him to be quiet and in the end received more than what he had before the destruction. But would God have blessed him if his attitude was continually blaming God?
Should I Infect  this forum with virus and blame God for that? no you people would look at me and say, repent for your evil, for out of the heart proceeds such an evil thought.


Get used to it my new friend, T-tank... this LIFE is NOT about YOU... nor about me... this is about OUR GOD, and HIS wonderful WISDOMS revealed, which include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

The sooner that anyone in humility, take ones eyes off ONESELF (and ones "choosings"), the sooner that one shall KNOW GOD, and that ALL is emergent FROM [by] HIM, and FOR HIM (not "for" you or "for" me) -- Col 1:16

Then within the HUMILITY and MAJESTY of the ABANDONMENT of SELF, ...shall one KNOW that YHVH is GOD... and that we are HIS PLEASURE, ...COMPLETELY HIS, ...to do with as He so pleases -- Rom 9:20 [why hast thou MADE ME THUS?] -- Isaiah 46:10 [I WILL DO all MY pleasure --- that being with -- ALL THINGS not

Good im glad you call me new friend and God is the source of all life and all that is good, you sayest truly to love God with all your heart strength and soul and to love your neighbour as oneself.

[LS]

You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

Hi Shawn - I just want you to know that your post was a real blessing to me - thank you  :cloud9:

[shawn]

You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

So you really think we had a choice as to whether or not we wanted to exist, wherever did you get that idea from

Forgive me for using the brain I was given and daring to question anything, forgive me for not being a stepfordized clone that just accepts things

How DARE I question the prospect that that majority of creation is headed for perdition, how utterly evil, thoughtless and self centered of me

Where did you get the idea that we didn't?  Making presumptions can only lead us to incorrect conclusions...conclusions that can hinder our spiritual growth and joy.  I have no idea if our souls preceded birth but I see nothing Biblically that says they didn't.  It's mere speculation...much like the idea that our soul was created when we entered our mother's womb. There are too many unknowns to take into account to ever put God on trial.  We all start from a place of ignorance then have the audacity to judge God.  Listen, I'm speaking to myself as well.  I have been guilty of the exact same thing.  All it brought me was grief.  I lean not on my own understanding and rely on relationship.  My relationship with God tells me all I need to know about his nature.

As for your last sentence.  I understand you are hurting.  I get it.  But, to take what one group of people think about the nature of God (eternal torturists) and use that to judge God and punish yourself is short sighted at best.  How's it working for you?

[shawn]

You make several presumptions when you put God on trial.  First, you assume we didn't have a choice about our earthly birth.  I see no Bible verse that states our earthly birth was the event that brought our soul into existence.  What if we did choose to be placed on earth?  You also assume that suffering has no good or perfect value.  I would beg to differ.  My greatest spiritual insights and awakenings came from pain.  I believe the sufferings of an earthly life are there to reveal the nature of God and to advance us towards spiritual perfection.  I have no idea how God works out judgement nor do I have to in order to serve him.

It behooves a created creature to submit to the Creator rather than attempt to judge his divine justice.  How can the created ever have significant insight to judge the Creator?  Again, with my very limited insight, refuse to put God on trial.  How can I understand the justice of God?  How can a creature living in a 4D universe ever understand that which resides and governs a 10D+ universe?  It's presumptuous to think otherwise.

Hi Shawn - I just want you to know that your post was a real blessing to me - thank you  :cloud9:

Thank you LS.  Sometimes I feel like I'm just talking to myself here.   :grin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank... :hithere:

I will answer this in 2 parts as it would be far too long in one answer! :omg:

Hello willie, thank you for replying to my post in a gentle manner.

You're welcome...  :cloud9:

Quote from: thinktank on Today at 11:34:17 AM
We are individuals and God has given us choice to do whatever we want. I don't believe God is similar to those old fashioned Greek type Gods who control our future

willieH: Really?  Why not?  Because HE being IN CONTROL, displaces YOU?

No because I belive that love is about service and gives, these old fashioned type of gods, just did things almost like scientists where life is just a game. But I believe that God is similar to an earthly parents who does not use a remote control to control the kids but rather steer them in the right direction with first a nourishing environment [baby] =(garden of eden) then into [toddler] (This is what you cannot don't touch that socket] kiddo (Let them on the bike and fall off)= The fall, [ Teenager] 10 commandments [house rules] Young adult {Jesus demonstrates his love] Adult [ Choose this day whom you will serve good or evil]

FIRST -- Nothing that GOD "does" is BEYOND remaining within His CONTROL... including ALL that occurs within His Creation.   It is NOT a "game" for HIM to be IN CONTROL of His creation, and the WORD does not propose this, YOU DO, apart from what is STATED in His WORD...

I "believe" what is stated in His WORD -- which plainly notes the following Scriptures which SPECIFY that He is IN CONTROL of ALL that MAN DOES -- Prov 20:28 -- Jer 10:23 -- Rom 9:16 -- Eph 1:11 -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:11 -- Please note Scripture that supports YOUR "BELIEF", that disengages these from the CONTROL stated WITHIN THEM...

If you "believe" that YOU decide the course of your life, by YOUR "choosings", then GOD is NOT (as is stated in the above Scriptures) "IN CONTROL" of your pathway, YOU ARE...

SECOND --- This is fine except for one thing... Your "choice" has already been NOTED by HIM according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of your life... and your life cannot proceed even in ONE IOTA, otherwise.  :dontknow:


willieH:  Who is it really, which "sits in the temple" deciding he/she is "GOD" -- 2 Thess 2:4 -- T-tank?   Is it not YOU?  Is it not ME?

Yes we are as gods knowing good and evil. Choose this day whom you will serve God or mammon.

Spinning wheels... this "CHOICE" was already decided by YHVH that it would be "made by you" before you "made it". :nod:

willieH:  Is there some "red guy with a pitchfork" inside YOU, deciding what YOU shall do?  Or is it YOU?  I can't and won't speak for you, but I know that of myself, I can DO NOTHING concerning GOD, for I am not greater than was my Savior -- John 5:19

The devil is in the details but so is God. God ultimately is the source of all things so whether I do evil or good God gave me that ability of life. But to do good is a hard thing who can bear it, but Christ empowers us to do good.

The "devil" is the principality of ADVERSITY which is created by GOD... for ALL things which are MADE, are made by Him -- John 1:3 -- If adversity exists, then it came forth from the creator.  That you "choose" adversity in the course of your life, is already FOREORDAINED by the DECLARATION of ALL THINGS -- Isaiah 46:10

willieH:  It is WE which must DIE to OURSELVES -- 1 Cor 15:31 -- Rom 12:1-2 -- that GOD might LIVE in us -- Gal 2:20 -- we DESTROY adversity, by eliminating OURSELVES from the decision making "choosings"... in favor of HIM and HIS "CHOOSINGS"

He said crucify yourself daily

It's not a once done deal, we must continually resist the carnality of the flesh that desires to lust and pride. Therefore even as Christians we choose between Gods way and ours. To add a little extra dimension to this, even if one crucifies oneself we are still in the drivers seat, God is the codriver, who directs our path. If God is doing the driving once we become a Christian, then by now the world would be Christ like.  God seldom gives precise directions, he gives encouragment and so forth but many things such as choosing where to work is something we must use wisdom for.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

FIRST --- God is hardly a "co-driver"...  If He is indeed DIRECTING the PATH taken, then HE is the DRIVER...  You scratch & claw for a degree of control, only to stumble over your own words in doing so.   REASON --->  If there are 2 passengers in a CAR and ONE is directing the PATH of the car... then HE indeed is the DRIVER, the other is just a passenger. 

SECOND --- Again, ALL is FOREORDAINED to be manifest as it actually occurs, irregardless of the designations of Good or Evil.   Those who "choose" to walk the pathway of "crucifixtion", were before ORDAINED to do so -- Eph 2:10 -- those who do NOT walk the pathway of "crucifixtion"... the reverse is also true... they were NOT FOREORDAINED to do so... so they DO NOT.  It ain't that hard T-tank...  :winkgrin: -- No "driver" + "co-driver"... Try using REASON within your conclusions T-tank...

willieH:  What a very HEARTY EXAGGERATION!  Where in the Scriptures is this noted, T-tank?  Where does it say that GOD told man to "do whatever you want"?

Ok let me be more precise, God gives the rules e.g 10 commandments and we make choices within the limits that God has given mankind.

Well... now you are starting to get it...  :happyclap:  The "rules" of GOD are the same EVERYWHERE, EVERYWHEN. 

God did not make a set of "rules" for this realm that differs from that which is LIVED in the Heavenly realm.  :dontknow:

willieH:   What you (as do most) fail to consider is that the KNOWLEDGE of this "murder" was already KNOWN prior to its actual physical manifestation.    And if indeed it was PERFECTLY KNOWN before it occured, it (as manifest) could not have been avoided, otherwise the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE which already "KNEW" of it, would be concluded as  IMPERFECT.  (like many "predict" the outcome of a horse race or football season).

Conclusively, the PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of it (the murder), being PERFECT (which means COMPLETE), means that this deed could not be AVOIDED within physical manifestation, otherwise the event, in being "avoided" shows the KNOWLEDGE of IT to be INCOMPLETE and IMPERFECT!

Yes and God allowed it to happen despite prior knowledge, notice that he allowed the very thing {Thou shall not murder] that Gods will is against.

Sorry, but this is amiss... The "God allows this or that" doctrine, is totally UNSCRIPTURAL... that which OCCURS is ORDAINED to occur.  The reason GOD stands inert as EVIL is manifest, is because He INTENDS that it manifest, for it IS HALF of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and EVIL.

There is no Scripture which notes that GOD "allows" sin to take place.  SIN was invented by GOD, as that which is ADVERSE to His COMMAND and LAW.

He WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- so if a "murder" took place, then the "murder" was within the agenda of things NOT YET DONE, which GOD DECLARED, that the "murder" occur.  As GOD reveals through His Children within the progression of their interacting lives, ...the PERFECT (as known by HIM) -- KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL --

You have a limited observation of that which is taking place, T-tank... which is largely due to the focus you maintain upon yourSELF.

Gen 3:22 -- This Scripture is noted of MAN... not just the 2 "in the Garden" wearing "fig leaves", but MAN which is encompassed IN ADAM -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- The PERFECT [COMPLETE] knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, was not found in the eating of one piece of fruit... rather is found in the TOTALITY of MAN which SINS from the BEGINNING unto the END...  Once SIN is ENDED, then the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is revealed as KNOWN by GOD, which was DECLARED by Him BEFORE its "process" of REVELATION, ...began... declared from the END, to the BEGINNING... the ENTIRETY of MAN must be considered, before the ENTIRETY of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, can be KNOWN.

Which BEGAN @ the BEGINNING... and continues until it is COMPLETE... arriving at the END...  :dontknow:

which supports my post of cain having the choice to make that choice, why didn't cain just thief a sheep from Abel if he was inclined towards evil, but instead chooses to slew him out of his jealousy. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts and malice said Jesus.

FIRST --- Cain did as he was ORDAINED to do, according to (1) God working all things -- Eph 1:11 -- (2) the Declaration made of all things -- Isaiah 46:10 --  that are contained IN the WORD of YHVH, one of which was the "murder" of Abel by Cain, which was FOREORDAINED and DECLARED to be, before it actually was manifest.

SECOND --  The "jealousy" was a product of Cain, which was NOT FOREORDAINED to walk the pathway of Righteousness -- Eph 2:10 -- it aint that hard bro...  :winkgrin:

willieH:   As long as you remain in the "box" T-tank, which esteems itself as having the "truth", you shall learn no more, and continue to ignore.  However, if you might step OUT of your box... you have much to see which shall be availed to you through the eyes of REASON...

I won't say you are wrong, just that you are veiled... not having taken into consideration that this realm was PERFECTLY outlined before even 1 second of it took place.  God, in -- Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?

I am addressing situations that happen in this age, such as shadow who is not happy, NOW currently- and how to deal with the miserable conditions here upon Earth as they stand, therefore seeing things inside a box is inevitable. In fact as I tend to think outside of the box here is a quote for ya.

"All people think inside a box, either the box expands or it contracts for only God is unlimited"
ThinkTank

Maybe in generations to come they'll be quoting thinktank :)

Although used jokingly, ...your own words indicate the vanity of SELF... which FAILED to respond to the question asked of you... (as I noted you would "create evasions" instead of answer, and so you have done...  :sigh:)

I'll repeat it forya:

Isaiah 46:10 -- notes that He DECLARED (using His WORD), the End from the Beginning... the THINGS NOT ...YET ...DONE...

How many "things" do you think that might be, T-tank?  Please use REASON in your answer (that is, if you do answer instead of IGNORE)...  If NOTHING had taken place... how many THINGS had YET TO BE DONE?


willieH:  Your "choosing" is confined in the very same way, you just have not considered that your "choosing" is confined.  Something CONFINED is not FREE, nor is it UNLIMITED.

You seemed to have missed this part in bold

We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited

What a lot of hooey brother.  You are stating UNSCRIPTURAL beliefs, and failing to support them as you go.  There is no Scripture that notes this statement you just made: "We make the choices, within this age and even though those choices are sometimes limited"... :mnah:  Which avoids instead of answers.  You began by spouting that you are able to -- "do what you want" -- now you resort to noting that there are LIMITATIONS to that "doing"... :rolleye:

willieH:  If my dog needs to "pee"... she has the "choice" to pee In the house or Outside the house...  she has no other options, say In the walls or On the roof, or In the car, or On the top of the fence...  even though these are existent options, they are not AVAILABLE to her...

She's not allowed to pee on the wall, cruel man, call animal rescue quick.;) Nah im sure you take good care of her. :winkgrin:

More of your "created" evasiveness... dodging the questions proposed to you... with the attempt to be humorous... 

PURPOSELY failing to address that which confounds your inept and UNSCRIPTURAL proposals...  :sigh:

The point being that your "choosing" is LIMITED to options provided, which options have been PREDEFINED as good or evil... and have also been PREDECLARED as to the choice that would be made in every instance...

I'll stop here and continue in the next post...

...willieH  :cloud9: