John indicates not all are written in the book of life?

[Michele]

Hi SG

Look at it this way, Jesus is the Book of Life.  All who are in Christ are in the Book.

All will eventually be in the Book

Make sense?

Blessings

This is the basis of a new song my wife and I have written!  :bgdance:

Peace...     :URWelcome:

In  JESUS...willieH    :scoutshonor:

I'd love to hear the song when you're finished WillieH.....

Hope you're feeling better.

[Peacetroll]

Should I stop waiting for your explanation/definition of what a 'Man' Is Willie? :dontknow:

For precept IS built upon precept, is it not?

Unless we understand the spiritual definition of 'Man' How can we understand?

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Colossians 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

John 3
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus Christ.

The earthy see's only carnal.  The spiritual concerns itself with the spiritual. Therefore it is the SPIRITUAL definition of 'MAN' and 'Mankind' That is of the higher concern to God.

[Michele]

My definition of MAN........for PT.......

A Man is the sum total of his thoughts.

We're all asking the same question -- What am I?

..........and God says -- I AM

[Peacetroll]

Thats an excellent secular explanation, I've heard before and held to that belief, its as good as you can get from a carnal view (at least its not describing a man as his body).

How about the spiritual?

I can't contain myself.

   Mankind are those with MAN indwelling.

   Jesus Christ is the Son of MAN.

Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

   THE MAN is GOD.

I take it this is self evident...

   A being with God indwelling.

Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

John 14:11
Believe me that I am in the Father (MAN), and the Father (MAN) in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


       Man In Christ.  Christ In Man. 

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

       An entity with Christ in them and they in Christ....

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ (MAN = Father = Christ Jesus)  in you, the hope of glory:

Father and Christ are One.  Man (the true name of the Father) in Christ.  Man and Christ are one.  Man in  YOU   the hope of GLORY!!!!

   Lovin it!

"Father I have declared thy name"...Jesus Christ.

He declared his name....no one seems to hear him...his Father's name is MAN.  And Jesus and the Father (Man) are ONE.

Father is a cognomen (title), MAN is his name.

Ephesians 3:14-16
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father (MAN) of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

............Like Man or.......... Mankind.

   

[Michele]

 

Thats an excellent secular explanation, I've heard before and held to that belief, its as good as you can get from a carnal view (at least its not describing a man as his body).

:grin: Ah yes......let the carnal define the carnal......and what about the spiritual define the spiritual.......I believe there are no words for that...... :girlheart:

You define what a man is PT, and you'll have answered the question that we've all been dying to hear the answer to for thousands of years. (no pun intended) :HeartThrob:

[Peacetroll]

I have attempted to do so seeker.

IT is the accumulation of years of reading and asking for guidance from Jesus Christ.  Jesus declared his name, and it's not Yahweh.

The Father's name is Man.

( I hope some of you will review my last post on this thread). :dontknow:

[Michele]

         :gangel:

I and my Father are one.

I like that definition PT.........

[Reverend G]

I must be missing something.  First, as Adam, all shall die.  Then, in Christ, all shall find eternal life.  So, from this follows, if we are not IN Christ, we don't get to live again?  This is very cool.  I just decided I don't believe in Adam.  Therefore, since I am not IN Adam, don't believe IN him, I get to be outside of the "all" that die? Why do I not see a choice or any type of restriction to a certain "elect" few in the word ALL?   I'm sure the tirades and such will follow, tearing apart at this, since it does not say IN Adam.  But to me the explanation is obvious.  Adam is not a vessel of eternal life, therefore we are not all IN Him. The important context is not those who are IN Christ, it says ALL are saved IN him.  He is the vessel for ALL.  It does not say ALL, except for some, will get eternal life in HIM.  Just plain ALL. Some choose to believe we are IN the vessel, ALL are saved.

[Craig]

Of course your words will be picked apart. Now, find every Scripture that says you will be judged according to your works and your words and find out what happens to those who persist in wickedness after tasting of the power of the Holy Spirit and what happens to those people who have invested everything in the world, but not in heaven. Even Jesus said don't store up treasures which pass away with this world, but build up treasures in heaven which do not pass away. So if you don't believe in Adam, believe in Jesus Christ because he said if we don't believe in Him, we will indeed die in your sin. The priveledge of reigning with Him, goes to those who believe. The priveledge of being the remnant goes to God's choice in whom should carry the message. The priveldge of being saved goes to Jesus who died on the cross and rose again, drawing all men to Himself. And if you want to use the word, All, as your qualifacation, you will realize that ALL are not thrown into the Lake of Fire.

[Reverend G]

It's all cool.  I was just being a smart aleck based on someone else's post.  I really do believe there was a first man, duh, there had to be, but someone was posting that only through being IN Christ can we be saved.  I am IN Christ, but believe that ALL will be saved.  It was just a dereliction of words, the point being that it seems absurd that what we choose to believe will affect our hereafter.  How simple it would be if just choosing not to believe in Adam could preclude our earthly death.  Sinilarly, that only through belief in Christ do we receive eternal life.  Silly humans, pretending to be more powerful than the One.

[Craig]

I understand. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree objective truth is objective regardless of our subjective view to it. If we are saved based on the testimony and ransom of Christ, to be testified in due time, then we are saved based on the testimony and ransom of Christ and it will be testified in due time. That is why Paul could talk to the Greeks on the hill, and tell them, "as your poets wrote, 'in Him we live and move and have our being'" because objectively, it doesn't matter or theology or philosophy of men concerning the truth but the objective reality of God is the truth.

Now concerning eternal life, all will have it; not all will have it in this life. Jesus made it clear; Eternal Life is the knowledge of God and the One whom He sent for the Salvation of all. So yes, the only way a person can have eternal life is to believe it; or else they did not retain that knowledge and suffer the misery of self-suffering in the dead works of mankind, which we have already been redeemed from.

Have you read the parable of the three strangers? It is a parable of three strangers who are on a ship, each recieve a letter. Two read it, one ignores it. Of the two who read it, one understands, the other presumes to know. By the end of the journey, the one who read the letter and understood, did not work once and spent almost all his time with the Captain. The one who read but presumed to know, met the Captain a few times but was too busy trying to earn this right, missing more than a few meals with the Captain. The one who did not read, was burned, and knocked around as he took on a job in the engine room, not thinking himself even worthy to spend time with the guests on the deck. As they exitted the boat, the Captain pointed out to the two who did not eat with him, that their ticket was all exclusive and on the expense of himself, he was waiting every day to see them. The two strangers began to weep and cry regretting their actions. While the one who read and understood the letter, hugged the Captain and thanked him for the wonderful journey. In the end all three were comforted in realizing the truth, and finding out the Captain was their Brother and they were all going back to the Father's house.

[Peacetroll]

He is the vessel for ALL.  It does not say ALL, except for some, will get eternal life in HIM

All IN him will see life.

Those IN him believe IN him.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

All are in Adam that are born of woman.  Adam is the flesh.  First man is earthy (fleshy).

All that are IN Christ are made alive, by the gift of the spirit.  ALL in Christ are alive NOW. 

All in the flesh shall die (All in Adam or in the flesh).  All in Christ shall live.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (In Adam)  and of the Spirit (In Christ), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


One can not enter the Kingdom of God unless they are IN Christ.  AND TO BE IN Christ, you must LOVE HIM....and this is the clear truth.

I'm somewhat puzzled that people are confused by what it means to be IN Christ and IN Adam.

If you are born of flesh, you are in Adam.

If you are born of the spirit, you are In Christ.

Not all In adam are in the Light/Christ, but some are in the darkness/Satan. 

Born of Water = Born In Adam = Born of flesh = Earthy = condemned to die.

Born of Spirit = Born in Christ = Born of the Spirit = Heavenly = salvation and eternal life in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Those who believe IN Jesus abide NOT in darkness/Satan, but in the light/Christ.

[FineLinen]

Troll: In the final segments of our Father's great Plan the entire creation is seen as being in Him and singing in harmonious strains of worship.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1454.0

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

-Revelation 5:13- Robertson New Testament Word Pictures

Every created thing= pan ktisma.

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).

No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

[Peacetroll]

All the creatures and entities that remain shall rejoice for certain.

And all that remain will be those IN Christ.

For the Chaff will be consumed as Jesus said, all tree's that bear no good fruit shall perish.   No doubts.

I will always believe Jesus over all others.  And when THE TRUTH says 'few there be that find it', I tend to take his word over all else.

Do you?

[FineLinen]

Plan A

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Plan b minus

"And every creature [that remains] which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Evidently ta pavnte does not mean the all: the all in the heavens, the all on the earth and the all under the earth (celestial, terrestial, subterrean) but only those creatures "that remain". Again, my friend, all beings in all dimensions of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld bow in union with the Name of Jesus, in thanksgiving, celebration, praise and worship. That would be the ta pavnte.

[Craig]

Plan A

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

Notice it doesn't say dead or destroyed creature. Every creature is referring to living creature. So every [living] creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Nobody can use that excuse that there is no salvation for mankind then, because mankind will be raised from the dead. There is no promise of all creation being raised from the dead, the only promise is for mankind, whom God has chosen to bring from the dead.

Next, we have to address now, that phrasee. They said "...and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." which means that the living creatures will still only be living for an age, because the unto the Lamb for ages of ages, or for an age and an age, means it will finally come to an end because everyone in UR knows [sic], ever has a beginning and and end.

Manipulation of propositions is not reason, nor is it sound reasoning. Dead creatures do not praise him. Destroyed things do not praise him. They do not exist. All means all, and in this case it is talking about all creatures. This means by their intrinsic nature, all is talking about all living creatures, since all dead creatures don't exist, they are dust. Next, aion and aionion/aionios/etc. can have a perpetual meaning as well as a limited one, because it just means "Lasts as long as it lasts"

"...and unto the Lamb who is for as long as He is."

[FineLinen]

Scripture use of the words "death" and "destruction."

HERE

For this reason it is that the word "destruction," as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the xcth Psalm, "Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men." Can "destruction" here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God's kingdom. So again, Job says, (chapt. xix. 10,)

He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone";

and again, (chapt. ix. 22,)

This one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked."

But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the "perfect" will be so destroyed, that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Ep. iii. 6,) "The world that then was perished." So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. i. 11, 12,) "They shall perish, . . . and be changed." So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. xxx. 18; Jer. xii. 17; xv. 6;) that they shall be "destroyed" and "perish." But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated?

So, again, as to the expression, "them that perish," sometimes translated "the lost"; (see 2 Cor. iv. 3; 1 Cor. i. 18; 2 Cor. ii. 15;) do we not know that these "lost," though they "perish," still exist, and exist both as "lost" ones and "saved" ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (chapt. lvii, 1;) "The righteous "perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart";--is this "perishing" non-existence?

So, again, where we read, in Psalm lxxxiii. 16-18, "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men "

(literally " they ," for the word " men " is not in the Original,)

"may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;"—men are to be "confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah."

So as to the question, "Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or they faithfulness in destruction?"—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the "losing" or "destruction" of our fallen life the only way to a better one?

Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (S. Matt. x. 39; xvi. 25; S. John xii. 25;) that the way to "save our life," or "soul," is to "lose it," or "have it destroyed," in its fallen form, that it may be re-created?

These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (S. Matt. x. 39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see verse 28,) with those other well-known words, as to "fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell," which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that "destruction" must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats the self-same word, "destroy," (in our Authorized Version translated "lose"—it is the word apollumi, on which some build so much,) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is "that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. vi. 6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A "new man" is created in them, and the "old man" dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like "dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things"; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that "by death God destroys him that has the power of death." Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular from of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.

Apollumi & Olethros

As for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in the Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though "destroyed" are yet "saved."

To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:--"The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost :" (S. Luke xix. 10.) As an example of the Classical use of the word, I give the following from one of the Greek poets, (quoted by Justin Martyr, De Monarchia , cap. 3; and by Clement of Alexandra, Strom , lib. v. cap. 14,) bearing on this very question of the restoration of the lost:- "__________" And the New Testament use of the word _______ proves that it describes, not so much preservation from future or threatened judgment, (in which case ______ would be used, as in S. John xvii. 15, Rev. iii. 10, Jude 1, 1 Thess. v. 23, &c.) but rather deliverance out of some present and oppressing evil. So we read, (S. Matt. ix. 21, 22,) "And the woman said within herself, if I may but touch His garment, I shall be made whole," that is restored to health; "and the woman was made whole," that is restored to health, "from that hour." So again, (S. Mark v. 23,) "And Jairus besought Him greatly, saying, I pray Thee, lay Thy hands upon her, that she may be healed." So too, (S. Mark vi. 56,) "And as many as touched Him were made whole." So too, in reference to Lazarus, (S. John xi. 12,) "Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well," that is, he shall be restored to health. See also S. Luke viii. 36; xviii. 42; Acts iv. 9; S. James v. 15; &c. See also what is said of our Lord, (Heb. v. 7,) that "in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers unto Him that was able to save Him from death," (literally " out of death,") "He was heard in that He feared."

But He was not preserved from death, but delivered out of it. Our salvation also, like our Lord's, for we are His members, is not from death, but by it, and out of it.

[Craig]

Once again confirming as I have said from the beginning. God is talking concerning mankind.