Mark 16:16 says "The one having believed and having been baptized will be saved, but the one having disbelieved will be condemned."
But what I find interesting is this short commentary -
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(16) He that believeth not shall be damned.—Better, shall be condemned. The Greek word does not necessarily imply the idea of irreversible endless condemnation which has come to be attached to the English one
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/16-16.htm
The word is - https://biblehub.com/greek/2632.htm -
"katakrínō(from 2596 /katá, "down, according to" intensifying 2919 /krínō, "judge") – properly, judge down, i.e. issue a penalty (exactly condemn); to judge someone "decisively (decidedly) as guilty."
Well, we know to not believe is to be still under judgment.. yes?
" The Greek word does not necessarily imply the idea of irreversible endless condemnation which has come to be attached to the English one." — Ellicott commentary
But, Jesus is our justification, and our righteousness, or we all would be condemned. Faith is what changes our outcome.
But, blessed are those who have not seen, and still believe. This is what Jesus said to Thomas, when he insisted on seeing and touching the nails in his hands.This, to me, implies that all will believe, but only some will believe without seeing.
Romans 11:32. For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. We all fall short and disobey, but God has allowed this, and His mercy will be given to everyone.
D.
Amen, and I think it is SO revealing that the Greek word doesn't even mean non-reversible 'judgment' as we've been 'trained' to think of it. But I think is the same one "all" are under until we are saved and follow Him! :gsmile:
What I mean is, before we repent and are reconciled through faith, I agree, we are (were) "all" on death row. Until we receive our pardon.. "each in their own order" (division? As one translation puts it. "The weak and foolish" of the world chosen during this life, is to me the only difference. All judgment I believe is either consequences, and, or ones own heart judging..
The tendency to view all things as an ultimate destination is a weird western cultural/linguistic anomaly imo. A more "eastern" mind would have less trouble understanding that "He who has not believed my words is all ready condemned" as recognizing the "state of being" in death until one receives life- rather than pointing to some some ultimate eternal damnation down the road. :dontknow:
Thanks for that John.
I think your reply is pertinent to the following:
About 18 years ago, I was a newbie on the church scene when my father passed away. He was as good a man as any, but not a believer. I was having lunch with the pastor of the church one day and asked about the fate of my father. His reply was: "I can only tell you what the bible says", and then he quoted 1 John 5:12 "He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son of God does not have life". And that's all he said. I was left with many years of turmoil and sorrow about the fate of my father.
I now realize that, yes, this is a true statement, however not the way Orthodoxy has taught it! I always thank God that he (God) directed me to Tentmaker, and the hope that I now have because of this place.
Thanks again John, and Gary and Michelle, and all of you out there for the many blessings.
-Pat
Quote from: eaglesway on December 11, 2018, 07:20:14 PM
The tendency to view all things as an ultimate destination is a weird western cultural/linguistic anomaly imo. A more "eastern" mind would have less trouble understanding that "He who has not believed my words is all ready condemned" as recognizing the "state of being" in death until one receives life- rather than pointing to some some ultimate eternal damnation down the road. :dontknow:
Amen.. that the - judgment, condemnation, penalty, punishment - is this. Humanity was transplanted (so to speak of course) onto an alternate road of life. Which road is - death. Thereby all learning, if not interrupted the walk down that road also leads to death, if the walk is not interrupted. If we are not transplanted onto the road of Life.
— That "all" will be transplanted, we know. (Cloud 9!)
:Chinscratch: ...So this tells us how to think about some things.. some doctrines..?
?All in heaven and earth learning there can be no alternate road, than the one of Life. Can't be done. ='s death/lack of life. Big roadsign "go-not-that-way".
:gsmile:
That was awesome to read Pat.. kinda sad about the pastor though.. but! Ultimately perfect..
Bless you!
glenda marie
proud gramma of 3!
Three beautiful girls, latest one about 6 months old.. "Life is good"
I am so grateful for the "reason" of God. His Logos is love. His eternal purpose is expressed in multiplying love and communion throughout the "whole creation"-"to every generation of the age of the ages.
The fact that He does it through chaos(in the beginning the earth was without form and void) is difficult for us to understand. We look for order and harmony in transient things, and our love of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" keeps us(humans in general) seeking the box within which we can quantify and explain God, compartmentalize all things, establish a codex through which we can eliminate the mystery, and essentially, replace love with conformity to our interpretation of the "facts". It would be humorous if the consequences werent so terrible- all the confusion and sadness spread in the name of our Great Shepherd. There will be a Day when every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.
Some will rejoice, some will cry out to the rocks to fall on them and hide them from His face. But it is His face that will set them free, and the fire in His eyes that will burn away the dross and bring every secret to light until the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses,"Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God the Father.
If there was no hope fpr the lost and the sinner beyond this life, how could we rejoice in eternity? How could "every tear be wiped away"? Would we not weep for the souls, tormented in "hell" or annihilated and no longer existing. Why should I have to forget the memory of someone who did not believe as I believe? Why should there be a future in which we cannot "know as we are known" but rather have our ears shielded from the screams of the tormented.
I was told, when I questioned these things as a new believer(because my mother, who was an atheist, at least taught me how to think rationally and question the absolutes of others)...."Just believe God- It is God's will, It is God's word, It is God's way and His ways are higher than our ways".
That was a like trying to swallow a golf ball to me :o) I could never quite do it. And guess what? Turns out it wasnt God's will, His word, or His way- but was in fact a lie from the pit, meant to obscure His face and misrepresent His nature and His eternal purpose.
"8 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved." Ro 8
This verse makes no sense from any other perspective than that of universal reconciliation and the restoration of all things. It is, as it turns out, integral to the very hope of our salvation. It is "reasonable". It is approvable within the conscience. It is consistent with the divine nature and the testimony of scripture that "mercy triumphs over judgment".
Any other gospel is just a veil over His face, which shines like the sun of perfect love.
2 Cor 4 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ."
God will let the light shine out of darkness. All the confusion and sorrow caused by the false gospel that leaves billions suffering forever in hell will fade away like the mists of dawn when His glory is revealed in the children of God, who will be as "a kind of first-fruits of His creation" tasked with the continuing restoration of all things in the age to come.
A better plan. His plan- vindicating both the love and the wisdom of God, and the only sufficient "reason"(Logos) for the death, burial and resurrection of the Only Begotten Son of God.
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
The "hell" is to be believed, although it very HIGHLY defies all logic! But "it's a mystery" - that's always a big flag! The Spirit guides into all truth if we have ears to hear..
I agree hell locks so much truth in a horrible box! Prophecy too has been locked in a box called 7years only, or.. imo, one called all metaphor only.. and some even want to lock all the scripture in a box called metaphor only.. totally open to frail human interpretation? All of it exalting what man says about the Word over the Word itself.. (That was the Gnostics, knowledge saved, some were wiser than the others - were over the laity (Nicolaity tho I think I just made up that word).. understanding 'mysteries'.. When there's basically one mystery(imo) how'd the translators get it so wrong inserting Hell in place of 4/5? words, including pit where a few verses away is described as wormy and dusty(?)
And Sheol where there is neither doing nor thought evolved even in Judaic thought into more.. (evidenced by the Talmud)
All just imo, of course.,
PS , and of course can't be put in a box called literal only either! :eek: that we know! Besides, every literal/all of life has a mataphor.. a lesson.. I'm thinking that's what all of this is.. Life as we presently know it, that is. A metaphor!
:gsmile:
'Caint' put God's "revealed word" in any box labeled only anything..? Except only truth-not counting human errors of translation/perception/coloring.. :doh: Oy.
:Chinscratch: ..we really do have to ask.. seek.. knock..