The most common opinion among scholars seems to be that olam/aion/aionios can refer to either a finite or an infinite period of time depending on the context. I think it's quite possible that when many Biblical writers used those words (even when referring to future punishment) they really were envisioning eternity.
It is my belief that the ultimate salvation of all mankind is specifically revealed only in the epistles of Paul. While other parts of the Bible help us see God's character and patterns when dealing with mankind (and consequently help us understand why God would save everyone), I believe that the specific details of why and how UR will come to pass is only detailed in Paul's writings (Jesus' statement in John 12:32 is a sneak peak at the revelation to come).
While non-Pauline writings convey the idea of Jesus dying to pay the penalty for our sins, that alone cannot ensure UR, for if it did, everybody would be saved today and there would be no future condemnation. What Paul teaches that I find unique is the concept that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has the power to actually transform mankind, to make men righteous and to reconcile them into harmony with God through Christ by destroying the barrier of death (Rom. 5:18-19, Col. 1:20, Eph. 1:10, 1 Cor. 15:22-28).
When the Apostle John was shown that the unredeemed would be tormented in the Lake of Fire "for the eons of the eons," I believe that to John, this really meant forever and ever. Likewise, I think that when Jesus spoke of aeonian punishment vs. aeonian life in Matt. 25:46, that meant eternity as far as His audience knew. I believe that it is only by the writing of Paul that we can interpret the duration of these terms as finite.
Let me know what you think about this.
Graph, your post hints at this question: Are we mortal because we sin, or do we sin because we are mortal?
I personally think Peter and all the apostles were completely aware of the salvation of all and it was the only gospel they ever proclaimed. The angels proclaimed it to the sheperds, "Glad tidings of great joy for all people".(Luke 3) John wrote about it, "If any man sins we have apropitiaon for our sins, and not only for ours, but for those of the whole world also." (1 John 2)and Revelations 5:13 "And I saw every created thing in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea and all things in them saying, 'Worthy is the Lamb". Jesus proclaimed it, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Peter preached it right from the beginning, "Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things which was spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times"(Acts 3:19)
Paul writes to the Galatians that he went to Jerusalem after 14 years of ministry to compare his gospel with the other apostles in Jerusalem and James and John were there with Peter. "In order to make sure I had not run in vain". I believe they were in agreement after comparing notes.
I think it is simply that Pauls gift made him the author of more epistles and therefore we have more detail in teaching from him about it, and for myself I am certain the other apostles taught exactly the same gospel and that is why Jesus is the chief cornerstone and they are the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. Peace, John :o)
I think John knew Rev 5:13 was the fulfillment of Phillipians 2:10,11 and Jesus' words.....If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.
As far as Olam and aion.... the greeks added the prepositions, in Hebrew it was just "olam olam" - no prepositions and no punctuation. "ages of the ages, or age of the ages or eons of eons- these are all greek transliterations- not direct translations from the hebrew. Olam is, imo, a word that does not mean forever and ever unless it is used in context with God or the life of the "other world". It was simply a term that meant "very far back" or "farther forward than we cean see" or "as long as it takes" in many cases, such as describing, in Genesis, "the men of ancient times" or "men of old", or in the law referring to the term of a bond servants indenture, "he shall be his slave olam." It is translated variously, "world without end" (olam olam) or "age" or "ever" or "forever and ever"- but originally it was just "olam"- or "olam olam" for emphasis in relation to greater scopes of "beyond the horizon" , which is one definition of the word. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 26, 2013, 08:40:55 AM
I personally think Peter and all the apostles were completely aware of the salvation of all and it was the only gospel they ever proclaimed. The angels proclaimed it to the sheperds, "Glad tidings of great joy for all people".(Luke 3) John wrote about it, "If any man sins we have apropitiaon for our sins, and not only for ours, but for those of the whole world also." (1 John 2)and Revelations 5:13 "And I saw every created thing in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea and all things in them saying, 'Worthy is the Lamb". Jesus proclaimed it, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Peter preached it right from the beginning, "Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things which was spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times"(Acts 3:19)
:2thumbs: Very timely, thanks. :)
Quote from: jabcat on July 26, 2013, 08:52:28 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 26, 2013, 08:40:55 AM
I personally think Peter and all the apostles were completely aware of the salvation of all and it was the only gospel they ever proclaimed. The angels proclaimed it to the sheperds, "Glad tidings of great joy for all people".(Luke 3) John wrote about it, "If any man sins we have apropitiaon for our sins, and not only for ours, but for those of the whole world also." (1 John 2)and Revelations 5:13 "And I saw every created thing in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea and all things in them saying, 'Worthy is the Lamb". Jesus proclaimed it, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Peter preached it right from the beginning, "Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things which was spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times"(Acts 3:19)
:2thumbs: Very timely, thanks. :)
Ditto :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: Graph1159 on July 25, 2013, 04:41:25 PM
When the Apostle John was shown that the unredeemed would be tormented in the Lake of Fire "for the eons of the eons," I believe that to John, this really meant forever and ever.
"When the Apostle John was shown that the unredeemed would be tormented in the Lake of Fire" - hi! :smile: here's where I would apply a "gap theory" (to orifins, imo, no, but) when it comes to the end verses of Rev chapter 20, when the 2nd resurrection is described, and it says "and they were judged every man according to their works" I take this to also mean all human history. I guess I see DOJ (the day of judgment) as epic review for all.. a really bringing home of the whole lesson of knowing "good from evil"/aka, life from death. God being life itself, the life force and also Perfection.. therefor to be imperfect is the opposite of Life..
But "God condemned sin" (imperfection) "in the flesh" (Romans 8:3,4) "But you" (believers) "are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (verse 9).
That is, we must be born again.. that's after we reckon ourselves as (old creation) as "crucified with Christ"
"God condemned sin in the flesh" but adopted us into newness of life..
(I don't believe the physical, the universe, and all creation is a fallen state, as to being fallen because it's physical, but it is fallen because the virus sin/imperfection entered and is in it, awaiting also "the glorious liberty". Was this some sort of mistake on God's part? :laughing7: :LH: I think imperfection came about because He chose to create creatures who could think which includes sooner or later the ability to choose and make choices)
:Peace2:
oops! I forgot, imo, no one actually goes to the LOF, but being a long day of judgment, after all have been resurrected (2nd resurrection being DOA, dead on arrival) - after experiencing being resurrected from their grave, imo, who the heck's not going to "believe"? - and "those not believing are cast into the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter, including after "death and hell are thrown into the LOF" and we know "death is the last enemy vanquished"..
I guess i've never thought of it as John saw ppl thrown to the LOF but heard the phrase "those not written in the Book of Life" :dunno:
Which what requirement is it to get one's name written in the Book of Life?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 26, 2013, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 26, 2013, 08:52:28 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on July 26, 2013, 08:40:55 AM
I personally think Peter and all the apostles were completely aware of the salvation of all and it was the only gospel they ever proclaimed. The angels proclaimed it to the sheperds, "Glad tidings of great joy for all people".(Luke 3) John wrote about it, "If any man sins we have apropitiaon for our sins, and not only for ours, but for those of the whole world also." (1 John 2)and Revelations 5:13 "And I saw every created thing in heaven, on earth, under the earth and on the sea and all things in them saying, 'Worthy is the Lamb". Jesus proclaimed it, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". Peter preached it right from the beginning, "Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things which was spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times"(Acts 3:19)
:2thumbs: Very timely, thanks. :)
Ditto :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Oh yes! me too!! amen, amen!!! :smile:
I love this and have been studying this on my own for a bit now
the lake of fire , is likened to Sodom and Gorramorah !
and remember how they told us , IF they had not left us a seed !! that seed is Christ to be dwelling in the consuming fires of Gods Love !! we would have been as sodom and Gorromorah ! the Holy Spirit and fire is a good thing , not a fearful thing unless we are hypocrits , pretenders , actors playing the part :Peace2:
the fear of the unknown is only when you dont know what to expect , but if you are being taught of the HOLY SPIRIT , you just know before hand what is going on , and the firey trials are just that, to purify and cleanse us, preparing us for His presence and perfect work a vessel of of Honor for the Glory of God , or as some the end to be made alive to God for His own glory !!
the power of God to His glory is LIFE over all death and power of the devil [holding as prisoners to destruction ] an end !!
God is doing a perfect work in all to His honor and Glory '' forever '', if we can use this word :cloud9: lol we were all taught as children to believe it is never ending Glory to God 's perfection and complete work
Thank you all for your responses.
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2013, 05:59:23 PM
oops! I forgot, imo, no one actually goes to the LOF, but being a long day of judgment, after all have been resurrected (2nd resurrection being DOA, dead on arrival) - after experiencing being resurrected from their grave, imo, who the heck's not going to "believe"? - and "those not believing are cast into the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter, including after "death and hell are thrown into the LOF" and we know "death is the last enemy vanquished"..
I guess i've never thought of it as John saw ppl thrown to the LOF but heard the phrase "those not written in the Book of Life" :dunno:
Which what requirement is it to get one's name written in the Book of Life?
Hi Ms. Glen,
This is an interesting perspective. How do you view Revelations 21:8?
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Some Christians would use passages like this to say that believers in Christ lose their salvation if they commit these sins and do not repent. Others would say that a single instance of a sin on that list does not make one bound for the lake of fire, but that those who believe the Gospel will not make a lifestyle out of these behaviors. But in your view, if a person lived a lifestyle on that list, but repented and believed the Gospel at the end of the era of judgment in Rev. 20, is the person saved?
the general assembly of the first-born registered in heaven(Hebrews 12) is, imo, made up of all the righteous souls(only God knows the secrets of our hearts (Romans 2)of all the ages.
Romans 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, [a]everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But [d]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Rev.1:14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Heb 12: 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
I think its possible that every name it registered in the lambs book of life at birth, and it gradually gets blurrier and blurrier, until it is blotted out, and these go into the lake of fire- because the others endured the fire as they lived and stood before God with a clear conscience, washed in the blood of Christ, reconciled.
well,the way I see it..is this....all mankind shall receive the free gift of righteousness from God..through
the one righteous mn,Jesus Christ[son of man/son given]
and it all boils down to the corrupt imge/man of sin...everlasting cutting off....in all of us[yes we have
all bore both images]
and that hour of judgement is God's judgement of this very maatter...that man should go free of accusation
and be a recipitent of mercy[as a Father shows mercy to a son that serves him]
and the way I look at it..is as a blanket judgement/amnesty of all mankind.
amnesty....a deliberate overlooking as in an offense[LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF THE OFFENSE}
now He has said 'I will show mercy to whom I shall show mercy" and He has recorded that 'word' in the
scriptures..and has testified to it........Good news for all men..unto you a son has been given/born
sometimes I think the 'devil's in the deTails of this judgement thing....[see dragon set to devour manchild
and his tail dragging one third of the stars].
als.o I beleive in the parable of the vineyard workers..that those that bore the 'heat of the day' would
raise objections to His giving the one hour workers[hour of trial] the same as them.
Quote from: Graph1159 on July 25, 2013, 04:41:25 PMWhile non-Pauline writings convey the idea of Jesus dying to pay the penalty for our sins, that alone cannot ensure UR, for if it did, everybody would be saved today and there would be no future condemnation.
In ancient Jewish times the husband could be the bride's redeemer. If the bride broke the law and would be punished with 3 lashes the groom could redeem her and take her place. From that point on during their whole marriage he was required to take each and every punishment.
Using that pattern I would say Jesus is the bride's redeemer and the bride will never receive any sort of punishment. However the bride is just a part of the believers so not all believers escape punishment/correction that way.
Quote from: rosered on July 26, 2013, 07:19:37 PM
I love this and have been studying this on my own for a bit now
the lake of fire , is likened to Sodom and Gorramorah !
Care to share? I would like some details on how you made that connection.
Quote from: Graph1159 on July 25, 2013, 04:41:25 PM
The most common opinion among scholars seems to be that olam/aion/aionios can refer to either a finite or an infinite period of time depending on the context. I think it's quite possible that when many Biblical writers used those words (even when referring to future punishment) they really were envisioning eternity.
It is my belief that the ultimate salvation of all mankind is specifically revealed only in the epistles of Paul. While other parts of the Bible help us see God's character and patterns when dealing with mankind (and consequently help us understand why God would save everyone), I believe that the specific details of why and how UR will come to pass is only detailed in Paul's writings (Jesus' statement in John 12:32 is a sneak peak at the revelation to come).
While non-Pauline writings convey the idea of Jesus dying to pay the penalty for our sins, that alone cannot ensure UR, for if it did, everybody would be saved today and there would be no future condemnation. What Paul teaches that I find unique is the concept that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has the power to actually transform mankind, to make men righteous and to reconcile them into harmony with God through Christ by destroying the barrier of death (Rom. 5:18-19, Col. 1:20, Eph. 1:10, 1 Cor. 15:22-28).
When the Apostle John was shown that the unredeemed would be tormented in the Lake of Fire "for the eons of the eons," I believe that to John, this really meant forever and ever. Likewise, I think that when Jesus spoke of aeonian punishment vs. aeonian life in Matt. 25:46, that meant eternity as far as His audience knew. I believe that it is only by the writing of Paul that we can interpret the duration of these terms as finite.
Let me know what you think about this.
Words used in common bibles to express the concept of eternity are inaccurate translation of variations of the Greek "aion," literally translated "eon," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," which refer to a period of time not endless time. The Greek "aionion," translated as "eternal" in the King James Version, is the adjective of "aion." The adjective of a period of time can not describe endless time despite the fact that some references biased to church doctrine may say so.
Scripture is concerned with the eons, but the eons have a consummation. Death is the last enemy to be abolished before the consummation of the eons. Then we will have unending life, but only God is eternal meaning always was and always will be. God is the source of all, and everything else had a beginning and came from God.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." (Revelation 20:10) These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie (Genesis 3:4), and obviously fire kills people.
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on August 25, 2013, 04:24:41 AM
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Hi Tom,
I do feel that a strong case from Scripture can be made for the cessation of consciousness at death, but I think that an equally strong case could be made for an afterlife. With the latter being supported by NDEs and OBEs, I am inclined to agree with it. What do you think about Revelations 14:9-11?
(CLNT): "And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin. And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."
Quote from: Graph1159 on August 27, 2013, 04:45:20 AM
Quote from: Tom on August 25, 2013, 04:24:41 AM
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Hi Tom,
I do feel that a strong case from Scripture can be made for the cessation of consciousness at death, but I think that an equally strong case could be made for an afterlife. With the latter being supported by NDEs and OBEs, I am inclined to agree with it. What do you think about Revelations 14:9-11?
(CLNT): "And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin. And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."
Regarding your question about Revelation, I believe we in the body of Christ will be saved from the coming indignation because we will already have been snatched away to be with the Lord.
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him." (Romans 5:9)
"For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18)
9 And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin.
11 And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name.
12 Here is the endurance of the saints, who are keeping the precepts of God and the faith of Jesus."
13 And I hear a voice out of heaven, saying, "Write: 'Happy are the dead who are dying in the Lord henceforth! Yea, the spirit is saying that they will be resting from their toil, for their acts are following with them.'" (The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation] 14:9-13)
The Temple Section—The Emblem of the Wild Beast
8 This notation fixes the time of Babylon's overthrow, which is greatly expanded in the next division of this section, where God deals particularly with the apostates of the chosen nation. It falls just before the final judgments which usher in the priestly kingdom. This makes it clear that the Harvest and the Vintage follow Babylon's destruction and that, when we take up the next division of the Temple Section we must go back in time to a period prior to these announcements.
10 This so-called "cup of malediction" (Ps.75:8, 60:3; Isa.51:17-23), was wine fortified with myrrh, frankincense or some other bitter drug. In this case it is not tempered with water (18:6 cf Mt.27:34; Mk.15:23).
11 The torment spoken of in this prophecy is of various lengths and limited to specific classes. All of mankind who have not the seal of God on their foreheads will be tormented five months by the locusts, under the fifth trumpet (9:5). Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet will be tormented (20:10). The fumes of the torment of those here spoken of last for the eons of the eons. These are the supreme sinners of mankind, hence shall be tormented until they die (16:2,8-9, 18:8), some of them by the blade (19:21).
13 "Happy are the dead who are dying in the Lord henceforth" can only be applied to this particular crisis. The reason is clear. No one, unless especially protected by God, can remain true to Him when they cannot buy or sell, or have any intercourse with their fellow men unless they have the emblem of the wild beast. It will mean certain death to accept the eonian evangel and worship the Creator. (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 397)
Regarding what you said about the OBE/NDE, I believe those of us who have had the experience may be getting a glimpse into the spiritual realm, but it is a misinterpretation to assume that when we die we remain conscious.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
The soul is the sensation resulting from the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit.
"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
Death is a return.
"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)
The body returns to the soil.
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)
The spirit returns to God. Spirit is by implication the imperceptible power of action, life, and intelligence.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
And the soul returns to the "unseen."
"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)
"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
Christ alone has immortality.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
I believe all will eventually be immortalized.
"Lo! a secret to you am I telling! We all, indeed, shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed, in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting? Now the sting of Death is sin, yet the power of sin is the law. Now thanks be to God, Who is giving us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ. So that, my beloved brethren, become settled, unmovable, superabounding in the work of the Lord always, being aware that your toil is not for naught in the Lord. (1 Corinthians 15:51-58)
The church says most people will be tortured alive in "hell fire" forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
Quote from: Graph1159 on July 29, 2013, 04:39:14 PM
Thank you all for your responses.
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2013, 05:59:23 PM
oops! I forgot, imo, no one actually goes to the LOF, but being a long day of judgment, after all have been resurrected (2nd resurrection being DOA, dead on arrival) - after experiencing being resurrected from their grave, imo, who the heck's not going to "believe"? - and "those not believing are cast into the LOF" is the very last verse of the chapter, including after "death and hell are thrown into the LOF" and we know "death is the last enemy vanquished"..
I guess i've never thought of it as John saw ppl thrown to the LOF but heard the phrase "those not written in the Book of Life" :dunno:
Which what requirement is it to get one's name written in the Book of Life?
Hi Ms. Glen,
This is an interesting perspective. How do you view Revelations 21:8?
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Some Christians would use passages like this to say that believers in Christ lose their salvation if they commit these sins and do not repent. Others would say that a single instance of a sin on that list does not make one bound for the lake of fire, but that those who believe the Gospel will not make a lifestyle out of these behaviors. But in your view, if a person lived a lifestyle on that list, but repented and believed the Gospel at the end of the era of judgment in Rev. 20, is the person saved?
hi, Graph! yes.. I think Day of Judgment (DOA, dead on arrival, so to speak) becomes, DOA - Day of Atonement and will last 500 years.. that's because if the Spring Holy Days prophesied and were fulfilled by Jesus' 1st advent, then surely the fall ones 'represent' His long 2nd advent.. so "ten days" between Trumpets and DOA becomes 1000 years, therefore "5 days" between DOA and Tabernacles(Rev 21:3) becomes 500 years long day of the examination of all things, all human history, etc..
And after experiencing being resurrected, and witnessing and living through what must surely(?) be a very long day of review, who's not going to "believe"? And also repent/change their mind, heart and course?
I really think there's only one verse which could be used to suggest otherwise and that's when Jesus told the pharisees "if you don't repent you will die in your sins" which imo, simply means the 2nd resurrection is not as joyful a one as the 1st (initially!)
But as to
Rev 21:8 and so many more.. I believe the LOF is a very real possibility, just as perishing is/could be, if one were to so totally harden their heart against God / hate God, so much they could never turn back / repent.. But I don't believe this will happen, altho it is in the realm of possibility..
As a matter of fact, I believe this whole thing [this human (and angel) drama is in utter reality the lesson and learning experience which shall be deeply engraved upon eveRy heart, mind and psyche, that to disagree with God/Life/Perfection is to become im-perfect, the opposite of Life/God. To do so in any teeny tiny way is (or would be!) to perish in a self destructive puff of smoke.. which is the all important lesson of apocalypse when the veil is lifted and mankind clearly sees that truth which is nonlife and collapse.
Left on our own, having been endowed with thinking ability, thus limited CHOICE ability, we would aLL perish, as a natural result, had not God intervened, which of course He did and was His Plan all along, of course. Perfection makes absolutely no mistakes. Collapse/apocalypse is a very important part of the lesson, this unavoidable journey (and lesson) iF, there's to be thinking ability that is.
I'm rambling, i know, but can almost never, help myself! When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (er, tree) of possibilities came to be.. ThAt's why His Word says He is the author of evil.. And it does noT mean he created evil for the enjoyment or entertainment thereof.
What is the best teacher? And the lesson is, one simply cannot differ or disagree with God in any miniscule way, for then we become imperfect.. bound in chains, because we then head for its result, nonlife, the opposite of life, not an alternate form of life, as mankind has come to believe in large part.
So saying all abominable, etc will go to the 2nd death is absolutely true.. the 2nd non life. OR through Yahweh's intervention, the cross, a Lake of Refinement and Purifying.. washing away the dross.. Yet otherwise, if He'd not intervened (via the cross) we'd all perish, as imperfection is the opposite of Life.
All abominable and unbelieving after all's been said and done (from DOA, dead on arrival to DOA, Daay of Atone-ment for all in 2nd resurrection to recognize "the cross").. all abominable WOULD simply perish, and by that day (Rev 21:8) all still refusing to bend the knee would go to the LOF, but it's my belief there will be none of the 2nd resurrection who would fall into that category, as who's not going to believe once they've experienced being resurrected? And after what surely can only be a verry loong day of review as to all things, how they went wrong, etc.. God's hammering home the lesson that HE iS LiFe. Period. One cannot wander from life and live. "
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess 'Jesus is Lord"! Any other reality is sinking sand and eventually nonlife...
...even if God in His miraculous Godness, saves all, which of course, He does, as even is written in the psalms..
But it's amazing how reading His Word through ET shaded glasses, keeps that error alive. But once UR glasses are provided.. from grey.. to rainbow!!
:banana: :dsunny: :cloud9: oh geesh, too long..
P.S - that's why i so terribly disagree with the idea that His Word is only allegory..
only occurs in the heart..
as I believe it bypasses how this life is God's truth drama, all important.
And even revelation, being the peak and culmination of the drama.. the 'end' of the movie.. What, is the best teacher?
Then a loong day of review/judgment.. why? ..He is writing His laws on every heart and mind.. Imo, deeply etching and engraving this lesson "you cannot walk away from Life, which is God and live".
"ALL things in heaven and earth, gathered into Christ" (Col 1:20) But to never believe/repent would still result in nonLife, even if no one, in the 'end' fits that criteria.
I think the allegory theory is used to combat the grievous blasphemy of ER (and the LOF as ET'ers see it)
i.e. it's an idea birthed through meaning well, but it's not necessary.
Quote from: Graph1159 on August 27, 2013, 04:45:20 AM
Quote from: Tom on August 25, 2013, 04:24:41 AM
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Hi Tom,
I do feel that a strong case from Scripture can be made for the cessation of consciousness at death, but I think that an equally strong case could be made for an afterlife. With the latter being supported by NDEs and OBEs, I am inclined to agree with it. What do you think about Revelations 14:9-11?
(CLNT): "And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin. And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."
PS: I want to take this opportunity to say something else about the subject of OBE/NDE since it pops up once in awhile. Speaking from personal experience, I don't believe those of us who have had one are any more worthy than anybody else any more than those of us in the body of Christ are any more worthy than unbelievers to be chosen for eonian life because it is only by the grace of God that any of us are chosen to be channels of God's grace in whatever way is God's will.
Quote from: Tom on August 27, 2013, 05:43:54 PM
Quote from: Graph1159 on August 27, 2013, 04:45:20 AM
Quote from: Tom on August 25, 2013, 04:24:41 AM
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead. They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ, but they will be made alive at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
Hi Tom,
I do feel that a strong case from Scripture can be made for the cessation of consciousness at death, but I think that an equally strong case could be made for an afterlife. With the latter being supported by NDEs and OBEs, I am inclined to agree with it. What do you think about Revelations 14:9-11?
(CLNT): "And another, a third messenger, follows them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin. And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name."
PS: I want to take this opportunity to say something else about the subject of OBE/NDE since it pops up once in awhile. Speaking from personal experience, I don't believe those of us who have had one are any more worthy than anybody else any more than those of us in the body of Christ are any more worthy than unbelievers to be chosen for eonian life because it is only by the grace of God that any of us are chosen to be channels of God's grace in whatever way is God's will.
Amen! Very Good!
..."the fumes" to me, is like "the smoke of their burning" which was referring to the burning of sodom and gomorrah, which, are they burning now? flames now? smoke over there now? nope.. but the memory (/smoke) of it rises up forever and ever.. (this life, a lesson truly learned by "all in heaven and in earth")
:smile: