Hebrew poetry does not use rhyming words but rhyming ideas. Complementary or duplicate descriptions are written in parallel, line by line. This adds helpful insights for translation through word equivalence, and interpretation of difficult phrases by comparison with an easier to understand parallel phrase.
More about that principle can be found here. (click) (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-four-beatitudes-unlocked/msg136789/#msg136789)
Psalm 35:5 May they be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away;
Chaff=them
Wind= angel of the Lord=HS
What we call HS is holy breath (effect) or holy wind in Hebrew.
So.... HS is also an angel
:thumbsup:...of which the Lord will consume with the breath of his coming.........
:thumbsup: WW
:thumbsup: Sheila
Psalms 34 ...6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him And saved him out of all his troubles.
7The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.
8O taste and see that the LORD is good;
How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!...
the poor in spirit and humbled of God will be ''lifted up / resurrected from the low place to a higher place ''' and taste Life which is Gods goodness and protection though salvation
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 18, 2014, 08:27:12 AM
Hebrew poetry does not use rhyming words but rhyming ideas. Complementary or duplicate descriptions are written in parallel, line by line. This adds helpful insights for translation through word equivalence, and interpretation of difficult phrases by comparison with an easier to understand parallel phrase.
More about that principle can be found here. (click) (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-four-beatitudes-unlocked/msg136789/#msg136789)
Psalm 35:5 May they be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away;
Chaff=them
Wind= angel of the Lord=HS
What we call HS is holy breath (effect) or holy wind in Hebrew.
So.... HS is also an angel
I don't see it like that, bro. The word "holy" from the Hebrew "quodesh" and the Greek "hagion" means "set apart." The word "spirit" from the Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma," literally "blow-effect," is by implication the imperceptible power of life. "Holy spirit" is the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary (Matthew 1:18), inspired the authors of the scriptures (2 Peter 1:21), and lives in us believers (1 Corinthians 3:16). The Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma" can also mean a blast of wind, but, when they're used in the context of "spirit," I think they mean the power of God not an "angel" or celestial "messenger." I stopped believing in the Trinity quite a while ago. So I think the only way you could try to personify "holy spirit" would be to say it's the Father. "God is spirit" (John 4:24). I don't believe "holy spirit" is any creature, including a celestial "messenger," or a third person in a mythical godhead established by Roman doctrine for political expediency. It seems to me that Psalms 35:5 is making a figurative comparison not saying the "messenger of Yahweh" is literally the wind.
:iagree:
You make a lot of assumptions Tom.
I didn't write or mean anything trinity related because I don't believe in a trinity.
Neither did I write it's a creature.
Neither did I write HS is literally the wind. You may click the link to get a better understanding.
Not all messengers are the same. Like all cows are animals, but not all animals are cows.
I think wind in many cases being symbolic for HS is well established in the OT. And in the NT the HS is the messenger between groom and bride.
That Psalms is in rhyme format is also well accepted. Ps 35:5 is no exception.
Wind is certainly associated with life. Just check Gen 6:17
So, I stick to my :2c:
You said, "Wind= angel of the Lord=HS
What we call HS is holy breath (effect) or holy wind in Hebrew.
So.... HS is also an angel"
"Holy spirit" manifested as a blast of "wind" is in the so called New Testament too, brother, and any "angel" or "messenger" is a creature. The only reason the Trinity came up is because it is a popular personification of "holy spirit." I agree with you when you say, "Not all messengers are the same." There are human "messengers" and celestial "messengers." That's why it's better to translate the Greek "aggelos" as "messenger" rather than "angel." I was simply saying that I don't think "holy spirit" is any kind of "messenger" because I think it is the power of God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 18, 2014, 08:27:12 AM
Chaff=them
Wind= angel of the Lord=HS
What we call HS is holy breath (effect) or holy wind in Hebrew.
So.... HS is also an angel
Cool. WhiteWings. You have stumbled upon the Hebrew hermeneutic and used it almost right. The wind is a symbol of the Angel of the Lord. THe wind is also the symbol for the Holy spirit, so the Angel of the Lord is the Holy Spirit. Those who disagree are using the Greek hermeneutic. There is one more step in identifying the מלאך יהוה 'malak yahweh' or 'angel of the Lord' or 'messenger of the Lord'.
Who is Malachi referring to?
Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he [is] the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Whoever that is is also the Angel of the Lord.
Disagreements often arise because the methods of interpretation are different.
The word מלאך means 'angel', 'messenger' and 'ambassador'. The primary metaphor is 'the one who is separated, yet joined' represented by the aleph א to the 'king' מלך.
Nice to meet you.
NET Bible
He makes the winds his messengers, and the flaming fire his attendant.
KJ2000
Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes or whither it goes- so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit
I really loved this :HeartThrob: Breath of Life !!! :goodpost: Everyone , Lots to consider here ,,, Love being able to think in more than just one way about things ...
I have seen animals with the'' breath of life '' spirit in them being on a farm , its common to see life and death often , and the minute the breath leaves them , their eyes change into deep pools of blackness
and the corpse is separated from that breath of life that basically carried them / animated /spirited movement
It also causes new cells to grow rapidly , keeping the whole being renewed daily
and when that leaves all the cells breakdown and decay
I just wonder what a spiritual being without flesh and blood , but a glorified body is or looks like ?
I don't think a moral man can see the spiritual realm
Yet ,I do believe in a spiritual realm hidden from the eyes of mankind does exist !! who has ''''a breath of life ''in them as the token/tiny portion of the'' Holy Spirit ''in them from the GREAT UNCONTAINED pure ONE '' who does keep the mortal one alive , being the container , for what it really is inside that counts , that is gathered back into what it always was , just apart or separated from what was always here and called GOD ! :HeartThrob:
I believe the Holy Spirit is of God Himself. It is the Power of God. I don't believe an angel can give life.
CHB
idkat..CHB.....Paul raised the dead..surely he was as an angel[messenger] sent from the Lord..........same as Elijah.....
if He used men to minister in this way[as gifts to the body in men] what would prevent Him from using His angels in heaven in this way.?
Sure an angel is a messenger but is he a life giver? I don't think so. Paul didn't raise the dead, God did. God breathed into man and he became a living soul. Paul, and the rest were just a vessel that God used but it was by the power of God that people were brought back to life, or was given life.:2c:
CHB
Right.....God did...do you think God is not in the holy angels vessels too? for the children of the resurrection are like the angels..the
children of God.
I agree that holy spirit is the power of God that's been personalized mostly as a result of the doctrine of the Trinity which I don't believe. I believe holy spirit generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary; inspired the authors of the ancient scriptures; and empowers us believers to share God's evangel with our brothers and sisters on the planet.
Quote from: sheila on April 25, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
Right.....God did...do you think God is not in the holy angels vessels too? for the children of the resurrection are like the angels..the
children of God.
I believe God can use whatever or whomever he wants to accomplish his purpose but it all comes from God. It all originates from God. The Holy Spirit is from God but if God wants to go through a human or angel to accomplish something with it I guess he can. What I am saying is, "I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a human or a spirit being, it is the power of God, that he uses to accomplish his purpose in the world".
CHB
...then who are the two son's of oil? I will not leave you as orphans.......... 1 Cor ch 12
Matthew 8;7-13 for I myself am a man under authority,with soldiers under me. "I tell this one 'go' and he goes..that one
'come' and he comes."
p.s. not debating with you CHB...just want to share what I see... :friendstu:
Same here. :Peace2: I don't understand what you are getting at about the sons of oil or the centurion? I don't understand what this has to do with either of them being the Holy Spirit? Just asking?
CHB
Zechariah 4...what do you see? I answered, 'I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lights on it,with
seven channels to the lights. Also,there are TWO olive trees,one on the right of the bowl and the other on the left.
WHAT are these?.......again I asked...what are these two olive trees on the right and left of the lampstand? Again I asked what
are these two olive branches beside the golden pipes that pour out the golden oil? He replied.'Do you not know what these are?
No My Lord,I said. So he said...'THESE ARE THE TWO WHO ARE ANOINTED TO SERVE THE LORD OF ALL THE EARTH
John ch 16;5 the work of the Holy spirit v 7 Unless I go away the counselor will not come to you,but if I go I will send
him to you... v 12 I have much more to say to you,much more than you can now bear.. BUT,WHEN HE,THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH COMES
HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH
1 Cor 14;32 the spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets
the centurion had grasped Jesus authority over those under Him. He reckonized this as a man who had authority over others...
and being himself under authority. what I'm trying to say is there are positions of authority in the heavenly kingdom.
the disciples knew this also...the sons of thunder very own mother approached Jesus to try and secure such positions for her
son's. Jesus said' Ye know not what ye request..they are not mine to give..they are for those whom they were prepared for"
God places such in their order/places. The spirit of truth is just that....one of the two anointed olive trees......
Jesus is on the right hand of the Father and the other anointed..Holy spirit/Spirit of Truth is on His left.
and at the mouth of two or three wittnesses..let every matter be established.
these two have authority.they have myriads who serve under them..heavenly hosts and men on earth
Quote from: CHB on April 25, 2015, 09:31:55 PM
Quote from: sheila on April 25, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
Right.....God did...do you think God is not in the holy angels vessels too? for the children of the resurrection are like the angels..the
children of God.
I believe God can use whatever or whomever he wants to accomplish his purpose but it all comes from God. It all originates from God. The Holy Spirit is from God but if God wants to go through a human or angel to accomplish something with it I guess he can. What I am saying is, "I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a human or a spirit being, it is the power of God, that he uses to accomplish his purpose in the world".
CHB
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 26, 2015, 04:07:33 PM
Quote from: CHB on April 25, 2015, 09:31:55 PM
Quote from: sheila on April 25, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
Right.....God did...do you think God is not in the holy angels vessels too? for the children of the resurrection are like the angels..the
children of God.
I believe God can use whatever or whomever he wants to accomplish his purpose but it all comes from God. It all originates from God. The Holy Spirit is from God but if God wants to go through a human or angel to accomplish something with it I guess he can. What I am saying is, "I don't believe the Holy Spirit is a human or a spirit being, it is the power of God, that he uses to accomplish his purpose in the world".
CHB
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Being a power or force that teaches and comforts and also conceives Christ in the Holy Spirit , I can see this as a power of God , but so much more than just a power
I think we try to put limits on the limitless I COR ...23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.