(http://russtanner.com/Images/Bible/Interlinear/Genesis1v1-2,Aleph-TavHL,r75,w500.jpg)
As you can see the fourth word (ath) is not translated. In fact the word is never translated in the whole Bible.
The word occurs in the many verses. Few examples:
Genesis 1:1, 1:27, 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8
Check it yourself with for example ISA2 or here (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm)
The word is consiting of the letters Aleph and Tav. The first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
Quote from: Rabbi Dov Ber, The Magid of Mezritch
It is known in Kabbalistic literature that the letters of the Aleph-Beis were created first of all. Thereafter, by use of the letters , the Holy One , Blessed is He, created all the worlds. This is the hidden meaning of the first phrase in Torah, "In the beginning God created Aleph Tav"____ that is, God's first act was to create the letters from Aleph to Tav(Or Torah: see p. 35)
So God created the alphabet first. Alphabet = words = Jesus???
Quote from: Talmud Yoma 28bAbraham observed the Torah from Aleph to Tav.
Aleph to Tav = Completely/Completion
Maybe the first verse should read:
WWGen 1:1 Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created
The Word the heaven and the earth
Some say "In the beginning" is better translated as "First" or "At first".
Some Jewish scholars say the word "ath" is totally meaningless.
So: ath=alphabet, Jesus, Completion (or nothing) :dontknow:
Oh, the little mystery word?
It's applied to adam, too, in Genesis 1.
Gen 1:27 So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) manH120 in his own image,H6754
"word-Man"? I like that...
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
--John 10
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
--Gen 1
God uses the Word to create everything, but this is the first time he speaks to his created being.
In Genesis 2 and 3, we will see the creation talk back. :Sparkletooth:
John 21:7 (CLV)
That disciple, then, whom Jesus loved, is saying to Peter,
"It is the Lord!"
Simon Peter, then, hearing that it is the Lord, girds on his overcoat (for he was naked) and cast himself into the sea.
:cloud9: I'm wondering why it wasn't said, He is the Alpha and the Tav, then? :dontknow: Interesting.....thanks for posting..... :thumbsup:
That's simple Cardinal.
Alpha = First letter in the Greek alphabet.
Omega = Last letter in the Greek alphabet.
Alef = First letter in the Hebrew alphabet.
Tav = Last letter in the Hebrew alphabet.
So just a OT/NT => Hebrew/Greek thing.
(http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/glie/images/greek_alphabet.gif)
Greek
(http://www.orbilat.com/General_References/Images/Hebrew_alphabet.gif)
Hebrew (read right to left)
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)
For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)
You cannot receive a commandment of God without language.
This little word is a celebration of language, and the ability/gift to speak with our Creator.
All creation is done through language.
KJVRev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
If we "translate" this to Hebrew:
WWRev 1:8 I am Alef and Tav, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Now for even more fun translate the letter to their widely accepted meaning:
WWRev 1:8 I am Strength/leader/First and Convenant/seal, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Leader and Convenant.
First Convenant....
BTW in ancient Hebrew Tav looks like a cross. Current Hebrew letters are very diffrent from the ancient version.
Just a thought :OhNo:
Quote from: Molly on July 18, 2010, 08:22:58 PMAll creation is done through language.
And language through breath.
This implies though that the father was before the word. I would have thought that the father just existed throughout eternity with his son and the holy ghost. Because otherwise God would have created God.
And father glorify my name with the that I had before the foundation of the world.
imo a Son is by defenition younger thatn a father.
KJVJoh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
3439 monogenh,j monogenes {mon-og-en-ace'}
Meaning: 1) single of its kind, only 1a) used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) 1b) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
And the HS.... that's an other discussion because HS seems to be a "It"
I thought he meant son as in, lower in the chain of command, for he could have had a daughter, but choose to use the word son. That to me means under authority of the father, despite being God. But this is something to look for when reading, and praying for understanding.
I would rather the word to have existed with God from eternity, as this new idea can greatly reduce the power and significance of Jesus.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 08:45:00 PMAnd the HS.... that's an other discussion because HS seems to be a "It"
I think HS is possibly the breath of Father.
KJVGen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
5397 hm'v'n> neshamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
Meaning: 1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)
KJVGen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
KJVIsa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
7307 x;Wr ruwach {roo'-akh}
Meaning: 1) wind,
breath, mind, spirit 1a) breath 1b) wind 1b1) of heaven 1b2) quarter (of wind), side 1b3) breath of air 1b4) air, gas 1b5) vain, empty thing 1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 1c2) courage 1c3) temper, anger 1c4) impatience, patience 1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 1c7) prophetic spirit 1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being 1e) spirit (as seat of emotion) 1e1) desire 1e2) sorrow, trouble 1f) spirit 1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts 1f2) rarely of the will 1f3) as seat especially of moral character 1g) spirit of God 1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 1g4) as endowing men with various gifts 1g5) as energy of life 1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:53:31 PM
I thought he meant son as in, lower in the chain of command, for he could have had a daughter, but choose to use the word son. That to me means under authority of the father, despite being God. But this is something to look for when reading, and praying for understanding.
I would rather the word to have existed with God from eternity, as this new idea can greatly reduce the power and significance of Jesus.
You know, both are possible at the same time....
We know only 4 dimensions. But there are theories of 10 dimensions. Simply said when someone is in a 10 dimentional world they have always existed. Be everywhere at the same time time.
But even
IF it reduces Jesus sigificane; if it's really what is written.....
PS This leans a bit toward Trinity a forbidden topic on this forum.
I don't think that is the same holy spirit we have.
The first man Adam is of the Earth Earthy
But the second man is the lord from heaven.
In the book of revelation there is a beast that has the 7 spirits of God. I belive there is more than just one spirit, but the holy spirit is the most majestic, being so highly referenced that Jesus said blaspemy against the son shall be forgiven but blasphemy against the spirit shall not be forgiven.
Concerning that scripture I now think that its talking about people who make a deliberate conceited effort to blaspheme the holy spirit, rather than temptation or just a couple mistake, but if seek forgiveness will be forgiven, but if not will have to endure some kind of punishment.
Epsitle john says
Testify in heaven Father son and holy ghost
These three are one
also holy ghost gives us eternal life in heavenly Jerusalem, Adam did not have eternal life but had to eat from the tree of life, which gave him eternal life upon the Earth.
I Pray that the father give you "another" (not himself?)
He that is in you will complete till the day of Christ
Some Christians hear the holy ghost talk to them, I don't know if any Universalist here has?
I find this very interesting and powerful, but I must ask, is Dr. Strong in error when he gives his meaning?
createdH1254 (H853) He shows it coupled
with created, but still it is את ayth (not ath)
H853 את ayth H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self
H226 אות 'ôth H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively),
as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token
H225 אוּת 'ûth A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent.
I found the meaning of male interesting sometime ago, but with that little word "ath-ayth" it has yet more to give.
I may be going wrong, any help would ne nice. I find your "fourth word find" very enlightening!
Male H2145 (Gen.1:27) zâkâr From H2142; properly remembered, that is, a male
H2142 zâkar A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember
I also found the meaning of the word "beginning" very interesting as it fills in the strenght of Col.1:17 for me
anyway.
Beginning H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first; (specifically a firstfruit; beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits)
(ICor. 15:20 and 23 Christ the firstfruits)
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 09:18:26 PMSome Christians hear the holy ghost talk to them, I don't know if any Universalist here has?
Do you actually
know anybody the HS talks to?
There are ET, ED and UR visions. The world is full of inspired teachings. Yet lots of things they saw/heard contradict.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 09:18:51 PM
I find this very interesting and powerful, but I must ask, is Dr. Strong in error when he gives his meaning?
createdH1254 (H853) He shows it coupled
with created, but still it is את ayth (not ath)
The whole point is that the word is
not translated. Dr. Strong never gave an English word for it. The meaning is unknown.
No I don't know anyone, but I don't know that many people so i'm not the best person to ask.
But concerning visions etc, a lot of them could be misinterpretated. E.g a person has a image of people in pain in a fire, they are then convinced it means hell is real, but the true message might be that God is warning them to go and help people because they are perishing and are in pain. e.g my people perish because of lack of knowledge. Symbols mean different things to different people and sometimes God uses evil things for good. Hell fire for example how much of it causes damage we'll never know, but I do know it can motivate certain inviduals to go and preach the gospel, for if you notice the ET preachers seem to be the one's who are preaching the most and God might use these people to promote the gospel in other countries because of their zeal. But again we'll never know what would happen if the entire ET community stop believing in hell, what would happen? maybe they would do more works, or less. :dontknow:
Faith would say yes they would do more works, but only if they had enough of Christ within, which might be a a hard thing, for how many would, take up their cross? Numbers might dwindle and then they do less works. :dontknow:
What is all that stuff on H853? and H226, H225? Im just asking because many people look to Strongs work as a reliable source of information. There have probably been doctrines built on his work. I use Youngs as well didnt look in it(not unpacked yet.) I went to your reference, very nice. :thumbsup:
Thinktank,
1Jn 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (ASV)
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)
Do you see the difference ? Peace and Love Through Jesus
If you look at the picture in the first post you will see that the word in the red box has no Strong number associated with it.
Mr. Strong never knew the meaning of the word and just skipped it. And as far as I understand it no one knows the meaning of the word.
Of course it's everybodies own choice but I would strongly suggest THIS (http://www.scripture4all.org/download/download_ISA20.php) free program. It's a small program and runs very well on old/slow PCs.
It's the most literal translation I know of. So literal that it's kinda unreadble (at first).
But perfect for word studies like this. It has Strong numbers linked to every word.
Or more precisely every known word.... :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)
For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)
I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their
host;
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 10:04:03 PM
If you look at the picture in the first post you will see that the word in the red box has no Strong number associated with it.
Mr. Strong never knew the meaning of the word and just skipped it. And as far as I understand it no one knows the meaning of the word.
Of course it's everybodies own choice but I would strongly suggest THIS (http://www.scripture4all.org/download/download_ISA20.php) free program. It's a small program and runs very well on old/slow PCs.
It's the most literal translation I know of. So literal that it's kinda unreadble (at first).
But perfect for word studies like this. It has Strong numbers linked to every word.
Or more precisely every known word.... :laughing7:
Thanks. I will give it a whirl. :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)
For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)
Why would the angels need to be "created"? Only things in the Creation need to be "created" for they have
beginning...
It is an assumption that the angels were "created"... :dontknow:
We, in the "finite arena" do not comprehend the ETERNAL one, as we might "suppose" speculations of it...
I believe the angels are ETERNALLY emergent of
YHVH, not necessitating
beginning, just as
YHVH does not need or have or necessitate, a
beginning...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:06:45 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)
For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)
I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
6635 ab'c' tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ha'b'c. tseba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'}
Meaning: 1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host 1a) army, host 1a1) host (of organised army) 1a2) host (of angels) 1a3) of sun, moon, and stars 1a4) of whole creation 1b) war, warfare, service, go out to war 1c) service
I'm not very sure but I would edge to sun, moon, stars, planets.
I just notice the plural "their host"
IMO that means host of heaven and host of earth.
Then host almost sounds like "inhabitants"
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 09:18:51 PM
I find this very interesting and powerful, but I must ask, is Dr. Strong in error when he gives his meaning?
createdH1254 (H853) He shows it coupled
with created, but still it is את ayth (not ath)
H853 את ayth H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self
H226 אות 'ôth H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively),
as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token
H225 אוּת 'ûth A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent.
I found the meaning of male interesting sometime ago, but with that little word "ath-ayth" it has yet more to give.
I may be going wrong, any help would ne nice. I find your "fourth word find" very enlightening!
Male H2145 (Gen.1:27) zâkâr From H2142; properly remembered, that is, a male
H2142 zâkar A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember
I also found the meaning of the word "beginning" very interesting as it fills in the strenght of Col.1:17 for me
anyway.
Beginning H7225 rê'shı̂yth the first; (specifically a firstfruit; beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits)
(ICor. 15:20 and 23 Christ the firstfruits)
Peace and Love Through Jesus
:cloud9: Here's another interesting thought for you on firstfruits; since beginning means firstfruits, you could read it this way....
In the firstfruits, God created the heaven/spirit and the earth/soul. Earth is feminine in nature because it takes the seed, and as such mirrors the soul.
And if you "take it up a notch", in the firstfruits that is Christ, God created the heaven (a new Spirit) and the earth (a virgin soul). Blessings...
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:03:02 PM
Thinktank,
1Jn 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (ASV)
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)
Do you see the difference ? Peace and Love Through Jesus
Excellent, that's what I mean. There is holy ghost in heaven and also spirit on the Earth.
and Adam was Earth, spirit and blood.
But the second adam is (lord from heaven)Father, the word and holy ghost, who now gives us a spirit of adoption (the holy ghost who contains the father, son) that we may also be the sons of the most high God.
Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father also.
As believers we are made in the heavanly image, no longer of the earth (spirit,water and blood), but are as the angels of heaven(Father, word Holy ghost), but Jesus said do not take them from the world, but keep them here that they may believe on me.
:cloud9: I don't consider myself a "universalist" but I do believe in the salvation of all because that's what the Word says. And the Holy Ghost does speak to people today, me included. Blessings...
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 10:21:46 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:03:02 PM
Thinktank,
1Jn 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. (ASV)
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)
Do you see the difference ? Peace and Love Through Jesus
Excellent, that's what I mean. There is holy ghost in heaven and also spirit on the Earth.
and Adam was Earth, spirit and blood.
But the second adam is (lord from heaven)Father, the word and holy ghost, who now gives us a spirit of adoption (the holy ghost who contains the father, son) that we may also be the sons of the most high God.
Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father also.
As believers we are made in the heavanly image, no longer of the earth (spirit,water and blood), but are as the angels of heaven(Father, word Holy ghost), but Jesus said do not take them from the world, but keep them here that they may believe on me.
You did not understand...the KJV is MIS translated.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 18, 2010, 10:21:28 PMHere's another interesting thought for you on firstfruits; since beginning means firstfruits
Or
"In the beginning" = Barasheet =
(http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr29.gif)=Tav= Cross, mark, convenant
(http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr11.gif) = Yod = Arm, hand, my hand, my effort, my work
(http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr31.gif) = Shin = Teeth, consume, destroy
(http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr7.gif) = Aleph = Ox, Bull, The first, Ultimate strength, God
(http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr22.gif) = Resh = First/highest person
(http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/ltr6.gif) = Bet = House/tent
Last two letters combined: Bet+Resh = Son of
Son of God to destroy by his own hand the cross
Last two letters not combined
Head of the house to destroy by his own hand the cross
"In the beginning" = Barasheet = "The Son of God will be destroyed by His own hand on de cross"
KJVRev 13:8 ....... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
:cloud9: Yes, describing Christ as the firstfruits....resh means firstfruits also. :thumbsup: It's where Rosh Hashana comes from, the Jewish New (resh) year. Blessings....
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:28:42 PMYou did not understand...the KJV is MIS translated.
If I look it up in ISA the mistranslation is an understatement... :sigh:
From the Christian Bible.
1 John 5:
7 Then there is the Spirit that is continually testifying, because the Spirit is the Truth.
8 So there are three that are continually testifying: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these all three are the same thing
KJV1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The blue is not in the original text.
Quote from Cardnial: "Here's another interesting thought for you on firstfruits; since beginning means firstfruits, you could read it this way....
In the firstfruits, God created the heaven/spirit and the earth/soul. Earth is feminine in nature because it takes the seed, and as such mirrors the soul.
And if you "take it up a notch", in the firstfruits that is Christ, God created the heaven (a new Spirit) and the earth (a virgin soul). Blessings..."
Yes, earth is a mother, we know that because she gave birth to man/adam. I took it up a notch in my mind when I was given to see that the heavens and the earth is Christ. Thats why Col. 1 impresses me so much. Hey, maybe why that fourth letter cannot be translated is because HE IS...I AM. We are all in Christ now (Gen.1:1) and we must come out to become Christ in us 1Cor.1:6. Oh! there is so much, so much! Glory! Some one correct me should these things be going wrong. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:10:14 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)
For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)
Why would the angels need to be "created"? Only things in the Creation need to be "created" for they have beginning...
It is an assumption that the angels were "created"... :dontknow:
We, in the "finite arena" do not comprehend the ETERNAL one, as we might "suppose" speculations of it...
I believe the angels are ETERNALLY emergent of YHVH, not necessitating beginning, just as YHVH does not need or have or necessitate, a beginning...
...willieH :cloud9:
Very well put. You friend are a blesssing to me. :thumbsup: :happygrin:
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:10:14 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
Could ath mean "angels"
Angels Thought HaMaschia (just for fun)
For there is no account of angels being created, yet they are a supposed to be created beings. (serious)
Why would the angels need to be "created"? Only things in the Creation need to be "created" for they have beginning...
It is an assumption that the angels were "created"... :dontknow:
We, in the "finite arena" do not comprehend the ETERNAL one, as we might "suppose" speculations of it...
I believe the angels are ETERNALLY emergent of YHVH, not necessitating beginning, just as YHVH does not need or have or necessitate, a beginning...
...willieH :cloud9:
:thumbsup:
I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
6635 ab'c' tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ha'b'c. tseba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'}
Meaning: 1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host 1a) army, host 1a1) host (of organised army) 1a2) host (of angels) 1a3) of sun, moon, and stars 1a4) of whole creation 1b) war, warfare, service, go out to war 1c) service
Whitewings
Gen 1:1 Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ath the heaven and the earth
Notice here, that in the begining God created Ath =something the heaven and the earth.
Ok but here it says Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
Notice anything?
The first verse implies creating something and the second chapter says that creation is finished.
The Earth finished, check, heavens finished, check, Host finished uh, what?
it's like saying here is the bluerpints for my engine, and car body
Then the factory builds the engine, car body and says hey here's your wheels that you didn't order.
So maybe ath means host?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 10:38:25 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:28:42 PMYou did not understand...the KJV is MIS translated.
If I look it up in ISA the mistranslation is an understatement... :sigh:
From the Christian Bible.
1 John 5:
7 Then there is the Spirit that is continually testifying, because the Spirit is the Truth.
8 So there are three that are continually testifying: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these all three are the same thing
KJV1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
The blue is not in the original text.
Thanks, its Thinktank that needs to see that :grin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 04:01:45 PM
(http://russtanner.com/Images/Bible/Interlinear/Genesis1v1-2,Aleph-TavHL,r75,w500.jpg)
As you can see the fourth word (ath) is not translated. In fact the word is never translated in the whole Bible.
The word occurs in the following verses:
Genesis 1:1, 1:27, 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8
Check it yourself with for example ISA2 or here (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm)
The word is consiting of the letters Aleph and Tav. The first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
Seems to me that the 4th "word" here, ...
preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"... :dontknow:
Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
I dont think, ath means host. :sigh:
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 04:01:45 PM
(http://russtanner.com/Images/Bible/Interlinear/Genesis1v1-2,Aleph-TavHL,r75,w500.jpg)
As you can see the fourth word (ath) is not translated. In fact the word is never translated in the whole Bible.
The word occurs in the following verses:
Genesis 1:1, 1:27, 1:4, 4:1, 5:22, 14:4, 19:13, 37:23, 47:23
Exodus 18:20
Leviticus 6:4, 14:40
Judges 11:27
Isaiah 1:4, 6:1, 7:12, 19:14
Zechariah 6:8
Check it yourself with for example ISA2 or here (http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm)
The word is consiting of the letters Aleph and Tav. The first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.
Seems to me that the 4th "word" here, ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"... :dontknow:
Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
I like that, and that makes me think that creating is still going on.
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PMSeems to me that the 4th "word" here, ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"... :dontknow:
Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.
Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth
Why the semi colon?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....
Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 10:53:11 PM
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PMSeems to me that the 4th "word" here, ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"... :dontknow:
Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.
Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth
This is still only a theory though and scholars need to work out what "ath" means, for as willie said it could preceed creation and could be just a simple word like, "and".
Scholars have figured it out millenia ago...
The (still) don't know what the words means.
But among Jewish scholars it accepted that the symbolic meaning is that in means that every thing is created from words. And that the alphabet was created before anything else.
The Hebrew that translates as "that" is known. (and it's not the 4th word)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....
Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.
Isnt it?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....
Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.
Isnt it?
To my best knowledge no. Placing a comma can change the entire meaning of the verse....
Riddle of the comma,,,,,,, :laughing7:
Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)
#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you
, today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today
, you shall be with Me in Paradise"
Variation #1 is just very unclear.
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me"
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 10:44:13 PM
I believe you will find your "angels" created here.
Gen 2:1 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host;
6635 ab'c' tsaba' {tsaw-baw'} or (fem.) ha'b'c. tseba'ah {tseb-aw-aw'}
Meaning: 1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host 1a) army, host 1a1) host (of organised army) 1a2) host (of angels) 1a3) of sun, moon, and stars 1a4) of whole creation 1b) war, warfare, service, go out to war 1c) service
Strongs Exhaustive Concordance Lexicon (though it is a wonderful and useful tool) ...is NOT the "end all" of word meanings... and in this presentation you (IMO) are ignoring that the word
TSABA primarily has to do with
WARWAR is an element in which PARTICIPANTS in it, ...DIE. Angels do NOT DIE... Neither are they associated with the PHYSICAL CREATION... other than as used by
YHVH to convey His
WORD to that PHYSICAL realm.
The "HOST" [TSABA] in primary application in this text has to do with
WAR, ...and is an ARMY prepared (beforehand, via the DECLARATION of
YHVH already noted, END to BEGINNING --
Isaiah 46:10) for
WAR which was to manifest, by "beginning" in Genesis/creation... and "ending" at the Last Day.
As
Gen 2:4 -- IN the CONTEXT -- immediately notes the GENERATIONS [all] of the EARTH, in the
DAY ["now"] they were created... which would be INVOLVED during that "
DAY" ("now")... IN that "
WAR"...
The Heavenly Angels are not
IN this
WAR... they are ministers of the message of GOD to those, within the actual battle... the actual participants in the "
WAR" (MEN) are they which the word "
TSABA" addresses... and which are amidst the "
WAR" ...and are the CASUALTIES of it.
No Heavenly "ANGEL" has ever been a
casualty of this
WAR... but
ALL MEN, ...
are casualties of it.
The Context of the
WAR and it's 2 primary participants which DIE (almost immediately) [
Gen 2:17 -- Gen 3:1-7], have to do with Humanity, not with "angels" in the Heavenly realm.
"ANGELS" are
messengers, be they human or Heavenly.
A "messenger" is simply one that is concerned with delivering a "
message", and the "message" is which has to do with
WORDS...
So those who are "messengers", are the conveyors of WORDS which are CONVEYED... Once the WORDS are conveyed, they immediately become part of MEMORY [live] ...or... they are FORGOTTEN [die]...
Just as you SPEAK, and the words of your VOICE (if
memorable and contain LIFE), remain as a MEMORY, but the PHYSICAL essence of them in their moment, such as volume, timbre, pronunciation, texture, etc...
disappears...
NOW is the moment of the PHYSICAL existence of spoken words... and either they are RETAINED and LIVE in MEMORY, or they DIE in FORGETFULNESS...
Via
MEMORY do words retain "life" past the "moment in NOW" in which they are PHYSICALLY SPOKEN or manifest...
Via FORGETFULNESS, do words, ...DIE...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 11:31:22 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 11:04:15 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 18, 2010, 10:58:10 PM
Why the semi colon?
Reads easier that way.... ?
Without it may sound like The Word is the name of God.
That's interpretation. And shouldn't have done that....
Anyware there are no punctuation marks of any kind in the OT and NT.
Isnt it?
To my best knowledge no. Placing a comma can change the entire meaning of the verse....
Riddle of the comma,,,,,,, :laughing7:
Look at the comma and how the meaning of the verse changes. (first variation has no comma)
#1 "Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#2 "Truly I say to you , today you shall be with Me in Paradise"
#3 "Truly I say to you today , you shall be with Me in Paradise"
Variation #1 is just very unclear.
Variation #2 "I'm telling you that you will be with me in paradise today"
Variation #3 "I'm telling you right now (today) that you will be in paradise with me"
I meant, ISNT The Word, the name of God?
I think it's the name of Jesus...
:cloud9: This is hard to put into words.....but I'm going to throw out some thoughts here. First of all, to me it's the first declaration of, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and Jesus (the man) was that Word (which is Spirit and eternal) MADE flesh (Jesus).
This would explain why He proclaimed He was the Alpha and the Omega (which would have been Tav in the original), speaking as the Spirit man/manna from heaven.
Creating or birthing something, is a feminine nature. Planting the seed is masculine in nature. The Spirit that is the Word, does both. There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus, not because there's either/or, but because there is both.
God IS a Spirit, who has a soul, and He is one with 'her'. He displayed both father and mother aspects of the Godhead, just as we in the natural display both aspects of father and mother because we were made in THEIR image.
He was able to display both, because He possessed His (virgin) soul, the enemy had nothing in Him, and as such, they (Spirit and soul, male and female) were one flesh. The bridal "tent" was named Jesus, a temporary covering of natural flesh, not yet glorified.
A tent is a temporary dwelling place, a PATTERN OF THE TRUE, as Hebrews tells us. The tabernacle or tent in the wilderness, was a pattern of a MAN, with both outer (flesh) and inner (virgin soul/heart of the Father) garments.
The seed was planted in the flesh of Mary, the Spirit thru Elizabeth came and watered it with her salutation. The "seed" responded by leaping within her (raised up, grew). The pressure to bring to birth (birth pangs) came from Herod, which caused them to have to run to Egypt to hide.
One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. All 3 of these are something HE does, not us. We have no authority to go into the heart of man (their Holy of Holies) at this time, only the Spirit of Christ, the firstfruits does.
This is what is going to be different about this last dispensation, in that we will thru the change that is coming in fullness, be able to minister to God (in man, their Holy of Holies), while those who did not come in as firstfruits unto the Lamb and God, will only minister to man (outer court realm). It's the difference between the Levitical and Melchisedek or sons of Zadok, ministries.
Christ Jesus was the physical representation of the heart/soul of the Father, as well as the Spirit/authority of Him. This is why He was nuturing and loving to some, and yet chastized some severely.
He honored His Father and Mother, which fulfilled the first commandment with promise, that His days might be long upon the earth. His days were cut short in the flesh, but perfect and therefore neverending, in the Spirit.
He left father and mother and cleaved unto His wife, giving Himself for her, that they might become one, and He might, as the Jewish wedding custom, take her "home" to His Father's house. He would never take "home" a "woman/soul" who was not a virgin. Which is why He saves/delivers our soul, making "her" white as snow. Blessings...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 10:53:11 PM
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PMSeems to me that the 4th "word" here, ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"... :dontknow:
Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.
Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth
Good point, bro WW, and I agree to this, ...but if you would, ...consider this:
Actually the word translated "created" into English --
#H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "
DISPATCHED". Something "
dispatched" was already in existence...
I also imply and maintain, that this realm,
IS the LIVING KNOWLEDGE contained in the Heart of
YHVH God and is an OUTWARD manifestation of that knowledge contained in His Heart.
In no way can I resolve the idea that the
WORD of
YHVH was "created"
by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His
WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from
YHVH, for His
"WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:
It makes more sense to me, that the
WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD... thus... the REVELATION of the knowledge was SECRET and UNREVEALED to any existent entity... which included the Sons of
YHVH (which we are), as well as the ANGELIC population and any other existent populations of which we are not aware.
I think the notion of the "Creation" of the
WORD, is dispelled within the
Parable of the Lost Son --
Luke 15:11-32 -- This parable proposes that The SON was
WITH the Father PRIOR to going to the "far country"... and as the "inheritance" was being DISCUSSED, ...they were
COMMUNICATING with
WORDS...
It is more reasonable (at least for me), to consider that the
WORD of
YHVH which has ALWAYS BEEN
in Him and utilized BY HIM... was utilized in
DISPATCHING the PHYSICAL Creation from a non-existent state to an existent state... via the POWER contained IN the
WORD, which as with all other aspects of the unchanging
YHVH God, ...has always been, and is
without BEGINNING.
The
WORD is noted as
being GOD in --
John 1:1-3 -- The Scriptures also note that the
WORD and
YHVH are unchanging entities --
Mal 3:6 -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 ---
If
YHVH "created" His
"WORD"... then the
WORD is a "creation" and CANNOT be considered, GOD.
REASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of
YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of
WORDS... and that the
WORDS of
YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.
I Hope that you understood what I just said... If not ,please propose that which was unclear, and I will try to reword my thoughts...
:Peace:
...willieH :boyheart:
:cloud9: Hard to put into words, isn't it, Willie? I agree with you've said.....and would only add that the Word that was hidden was Father's heart, which was hidden so as not to put "her" to shame, which is why righteous Joseph was of a mind to hide Mary, so as not to put her to shame.
Wisdom is put to shame by carnally minded men, whose heart is of our their father, the devil, and so only want to rape (forced authority) and murder "her". Blessings....
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AM
Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED". Something "dispatched" was already in existence...
Jewish scholars believe bara is creating out of nothing. I never have seen the meaning of dispatched. I've checked BARA/H1254 is 3 lexicons. They are all basicly the same and none does mention 'dispatch'. (not claiming I own all lexicons)
1254 arB bara' {baw-raw'}
Meaning: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
QuoteIn no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:
Firstly it doesn't say 'just prior'.
It just as wel could be 99999 zillion ages.
Plus something cretaed right now can also have lived eternally if put in the right dimension....
Question: Do Father, Son and HS have the same age?
QuoteIt makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD...
So at that point Jesus was born/begotten.
QuoteREASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.
There is a difference between words and The Word. The whole 4th word is little riddle of Father.
Anyway I think we are not going to agree (as usual); maybe for further understanding we should check out the other verses I listed in my first post. They also contain that same word. (untranslated) Maybe something is to learn there...
Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2010, 12:23:01 AM
:cloud9: Hard to put into words, isn't it, Willie? I agree with you've said.....and would only add that the Word that was hidden was Father's heart, which was hidden so as not to put "her" to shame, which is why righteous Joseph was of a mind to hide Mary, so as not to put her to shame.
Wisdom is put to shame by carnally minded men, whose heart is of our their father, the devil, and so only want to rape (forced authority) and murder "her". Blessings....
I'll stop raping for today.....
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2010, 10:53:11 PM
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2010, 10:48:22 PMSeems to me that the 4th "word" here, ...preceeds the word "created" [the "doing of" creation]... rather than "was created"... :dontknow:
Which means that "that" which was "created", emerged from the already present, "aleph/tav"... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
It's Hebrew, so read from right to left. Then it no longer preceeds.
Without changing word order:
In the begining created God: The Word, the heavens and the earth
Good point, bro WW, and I agree to this, ...but if you would, ...consider this:
Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED". Something "dispatched" was already in existence...
I also imply and maintain, that this realm, IS the LIVING KNOWLEDGE contained in the Heart of YHVH God and is an OUTWARD manifestation of that knowledge contained in His Heart.
In no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:
It makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD... thus... the REVELATION of the knowledge was SECRET and UNREVEALED to any existent entity... which included the Sons of YHVH (which we are), as well as the ANGELIC population and any other existent populations of which we are not aware.
I think the notion of the "Creation" of the WORD, is dispelled within the Parable of the Lost Son -- Luke 15:11-32 -- This parable proposes that The SON was WITH the Father PRIOR to going to the "far country"... and as the "inheritance" was being DISCUSSED, ...they were COMMUNICATING with WORDS...
It is more reasonable (at least for me), to consider that the WORD of YHVH which has ALWAYS BEEN in Him and utilized BY HIM... was utilized in DISPATCHING the PHYSICAL Creation from a non-existent state to an existent state... via the POWER contained IN the WORD, which as with all other aspects of the unchanging YHVH God, ...has always been, and is without BEGINNING.
The WORD is noted as being GOD in -- John 1:1-3 -- The Scriptures also note that the WORD and YHVH are unchanging entities -- Mal 3:6 -- James 1:17 -- Heb 13:8 ---
If YHVH "created" His "WORD"... then the WORD is a "creation" and CANNOT be considered, GOD.
REASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.
I Hope that you understood what I just said... If not ,please propose that which was unclear, and I will try to reword my thoughts...
:Peace:
...willieH :boyheart:
Great post willie :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:45:47 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2010, 12:23:01 AM
:cloud9: Hard to put into words, isn't it, Willie? I agree with you've said.....and would only add that the Word that was hidden was Father's heart, which was hidden so as not to put "her" to shame, which is why righteous Joseph was of a mind to hide Mary, so as not to put her to shame.
Wisdom is put to shame by carnally minded men, whose heart is of our their father, the devil, and so only want to rape (forced authority) and murder "her". Blessings....
I'll stop raping for today.....
:sigh: ? Did you think I was talking about YOU??? :dontknow: It was a general statement of principle, ONLY.
I don't have words to express it, but I think you're both right. He was eternal, but different in form perhaps? Blessings...
You said that ath was mentioned also in this verse
Zechariah 6:8
This is better than an episode of columbo, ok maybe not columbo, but sherlock homes perhaps.
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
I believe that Willie H. seen it properly.
The word is in many more places as well.
According to this Lexicon page 84 it is called " the mark of the accusative"(disignating)
prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite.
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853)
Gen 4:1 And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853)
Gen 8:8 Also he sent forthH7971 (H853
Gen 29:27 FulfilH4390 herH2063 week,H7620 and we will giveH5414 thee(H853)
There is just so much yet to see!
Quote from: ww=Tav= Cross, mark, convenant
The 'mark' is a cross?
3And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
4And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and
set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
--Eze 9
"a mark"H8420
תּו
tâvtawv
From H8427; a mark; by implication
a signature: - desire, mark.
Ezekiel 9:6
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.Genesis 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Quote from: willieHIn no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, .
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God. --John 1
"the Word"G3056
λόγος
logoslog'-os
From G3004;
something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John)
the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
In the beginning was the mind of God...
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. --John 1
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2010, 05:21:29 AM
Quote from: ww=Tav= Cross, mark, convenant
The 'mark' is a cross?
I'm just reading those things. It at least looks like a cross.... :winkgrin:
(http://www.hebrew4christians.net/Grammar/Unit_One/Paleo-Hebrew_Alphabet/proto-Hebrew-aramaic.gif)
http://aviel-8.xanga.com/729513109/the-hebrew-letter-tav-a-sign-seal-mark-and-the-tzlav-cross-of-messiah/http://www.fact-index.com/p/ph/phoenician_alphabet.htmlSomething I just found when looking for a alphabet picture for you:
Aleph Tav
Herald of Messiah
I found that letter "X" TAV in the Phoenician alphabet.
It is also found in Aramaic Syriac Arabic. The Aramaic is very close the Hebrew.
:cloud9: WW, wasn't it you who posted something about the nails and the tav, not long ago? :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 19, 2010, 07:54:54 AM
I found that letter "X" TAV in the Phoenician alphabet.
It is also found in Aramaic Syriac Arabic. The Aramaic is very close the Hebrew.
In the message just above your is a picture. It loads very slowly so perhaps you missed it.
Hebrew and Arabic come from the same alphabet.
Also read this (click here) (http://biblescripture.net/Hebrew.html)
But things changed during the Jewish captivity. The way their letters look and for example the names of their months. Abib --> Nisan
New picture added
(http://biblescripture.net/Alphabet.jpeg)
Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2010, 08:41:06 AM
:cloud9: WW, wasn't it you who posted something about the nails and the tav, not long ago? :dontknow:
Passover.
Blood placed on the doorpost.
In Hebrew a word with the meaning "the sign" or "the seal" is used for that 'action'
The Hebrew word has 3 letters.
Alef = Leader
Vav = Nail
Tav = Cross
Leader nailed to the cross.
If someone wants a list with all 7269 verses with Alef-Tav in it ask.
:cloud9: Yes, that was it....good stuff. :thumbsup:
willieH: Hi WW... :happy3:
Thanks for your reply! :thumbsup:
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AM
Actually the word translated "created" into English -- #H1254 -- BARA -- can and does mean "DISPATCHED". Something "dispatched" was already in existence...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMJewish scholars believe bara is creating out of nothing. I never have seen the meaning of dispatched. I've checked BARA/H1254 is 3 lexicons. They are all basicly the same and none does mention 'dispatch'. (not claiming I own all lexicons)
FIRST --- Even the JEWISH scholars are not expert on the exact meanings of the ANCIENT Hebrew words --
BARA #H1254 -- appears in --
Ez 23:47 -- and
is translated "DISPATCH"... :dontknow:
SECOND --- Then, try Strongs Lexicon which DOES note within the definition of the word
BARA --- "dispatch"... and then look up the above Scripture in the KJV, which notes this definition translated into english... :nod:
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AMIn no way can I resolve the idea that the WORD of YHVH was "created" by Him, ...and prior to the "creation" of His WORD (just prior to the Physical creation), ...there was NO COMMUNICATION which came forth from YHVH, for His "WORD" had yet to be "created". :mnah:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMFirstly it doesn't say 'just prior'.
[1] It just as wel could be 99999 zillion ages.
[2] Plus something cretaed right now can also have lived eternally [3] if put in the right dimension....
[1] --- Something that IS CREATED = generated --
(1) -- has a beginning --
(2) -- cannot be considered GOD (for it is a created entity, therefore, NOT the creator) --
(3) -- Scripture notes that ALL things that were MADE were
made by the "
WORD" [
Col 1:16 - John 1:3]... this cannot be true if the
WORD itself was "
MADE"... :dontknow:
[2] --- Something "eternal" has no point of "generation/beginning"... I believe that ALL things which emerge from
YHVH are ETERNAL for they have emerged from the ETERNAL! That might sound confusing, but it is my belief that we have ALWAYS BEEN... the only thing that was "created" and had "beginning" was TIME and all manifestations IN IT... I also believe that the entire history of MANKIND, is the LIVING knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, which is OUTWARDLY expressed in LIVING TERMS (we are alive, doing good and evil)... and which shall remain as a reference (knowledge) but CEASE as a manifestation (living progression)...
Futhermore... In conjunction with this, I believe that we as Sons of God, are "gods" for Scripture notes this to be so --
John 10:34 -- Psalm 82:6 -- having ALWAYS existed and were present at "creation" --
Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32 -- and became participants as GOD declared us to be... in the DECLARATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which was within
YHVH, and IS being EXPRESSED in LIVING terms via His Children...
This is WHY,
YHVH stands inert as EVIL is done... for it must be REVEALED to its FULLEST temporal extent, and in its FULLEST temporal capacities... :sigh: ...that GOOD might dwarf it in the ETERNAL realm in which JOY and LIFE abide forever. :bgdance: GOD is longsuffering this revelation --
Rom 9:22-23 -- that in REVEALING EVIL, ...the majesty of JOY can be known by all. :cloud9:
[3] --- :omg: This is nothing but your conjecture... Upon what basis do you assert that putting something in the "right dimension" shall determine it to be in an ETERNAL state? Please define what you think is this, "right dimension"? :dunno:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMQuestion: Do Father, Son and HS have the same age?
FIRST --- the "Father, Son Holy Spirit" are emergent of
YHVH God, which has no "age"... for "ages" are concerned with TIME, and TIME and all within TIME, are created entities (see
Gen 1)
SECOND --- You are welcome to your present perception, and I hold no aught against you for it, for we all are (or should be) in the learning process...
But in my present observation, which is substanciated by the Scriptures, ...these are NOT 3 individual/separate beings... they are 3 manifestations of the SAME being --
YHVH God... Just as your words are not a "separate person" from yourself...
YHVH continuously and SPECIFICALLY notes Himself
ALONE, as GOD in the OT, and that NO OTHER can claim to hold the position of "GOD" --
Isaiah 43:10-11 -- Ex 20:1 --
His continuing literally uncountable usages of -- "I, me, mine, He, Him, my" etc.. -- in referring to HIMSELF, more than display a SINGULAR entity which
JESUS CHRIST is also subject to --
1 Cor 15:28That we are made in HIS (not their) IMAGE... and that there is
ONE sentient PERSON (not three) in each of us, also testifies to this truth. :nod:
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AMIt makes more sense to me, that the WORD which contains the Knowledge of Good and Evil... was within Him, yet to become OUTWARD...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMSo at that point Jesus was born/begotten.
JESUS the "man" (human being) was "begotten"... and WAS thoroughly human, just as are we... able to be TEMPTED, and able to DIE... both of which occured (as it does with each of us) within His experience... which are TWO THINGS that
cannot happen to "GOD"!
JESUS the "man" had a beginning... and was "MADE" --
Heb 2:9The
WORD which was the "WILL" of the FULLNESS of DIVINITY which "DWELLED" in His heart, and which He followed, manifest in action and taught from, was ETERNAL (without beginning) which was a manifestation
IN HIM, of
YHVH God, who was and IS, ...
HIS GOD as well as ours
---> Eph 1:3 -- Blessed be the
GOD and Father
OF our Lord
JESUS CHRIST...
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AMREASON also dictates that the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH as contained WITHIN Him... is also composed of WORDS... and that the WORDS of YHVH are an inseparable portion of Himself, are and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN [without beginning] -- within His HEART.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMThere is a difference between words and The Word. The whole 4th word is little riddle of Father.
I agree... but "THE
WORD" has ALWAYS existed in the heart of
YHVH and
IS GOD... as the Scripture notes:
John 1:1 -- THIS statement is the
TRUTH... for it IS a firm statement made in "
THE WORD" about "
THE WORD".
I have thoroughly enjoyed this discovery of yours WW, as well as the discussion of this thread... however...
There is NOTHING that cannot be REVEALED... that you consider this to be a "riddle" is your present perception, which in the LEARNING process, can change...
I remain in the position I have already noted... that the
WORD IS GOD and that it has NO BEGINNING or point of "creation"... and that it is an OUTWARD manifestation of
YHVH God, ...which said DIETY -- fully permeated --
Col 2:9 --
JESUS CHRIST -- "the man" --
1 Tim 2:5Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMAnyway I think we are not going to agree (as usual);
You have set up this barrier bro. :sigh:
Presupposing that we shall not agree ("as usual")... as long as you begin any conversation with me, immersed in this presupposition... then it WILL manifest during our conversation... It is our duty as seekers of the TRUTH, to remain open, irregardless of whom God has placed before us in conversation... to LEARN and be inspired to research. :dontknow:
You are welcome to percieve as you do... :happygrin:
As for me, ...I maintain that NO ONE is "right" except GOD, and he to whom GOD reveals that which is RIGHT... Until such happens in either of our life experiences in our encounters with the
WORD... then we shall remain VEILED to what is "RIGHT"... which does not mean we are "WRONG", it means we are VEILED... :dontknow:
That you and I do not "agree" on any given point, does not matter to me. What matters to me is that I find the TRUTH... even though I dearly welcome agreement with my brothers and sisters, it is secondary to the TRUTH. I spent 25 years in the system, DISAGREEING with HELL and ANNHILATION... yet fearing they might be true... I shall no longer EVER be engaged with this or any other FEAR in any capacity...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMmaybe for further understanding we should check out the other verses I listed in my first post. They also contain that same word. (untranslated) Maybe something is to learn there...
I completely
agree with you, WW!
It is our duty to research... and I shall look forward to further discovery concerning this mysterious word. :thumbsup:
See there? We
agreed on something! :boogie: ...its a start, no? :dontknow:
...willieH :icon_king:
Is there is no relevence to this post regarding the 4th word? Someone, it seems found some translation for it, did they not?
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
I believe that Willie H. seen it properly.
The word is in many more places as well.
According to this Lexicon page 84 it is called " the mark of the accusative"
prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite. There are about 2 pages
of info on the 4th word.
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853)
Gen 4:1 And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853)
Gen 8:8 Also he sent forthH7971 (H853
Gen 29:27 FulfilH4390 herH2063 week,H7620 and we will giveH5414 thee(H853)
There is just so much yet to see! And Thank you Willie H. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2010, 12:17:07 AMFIRST --- Even the JEWISH scholars are not expert on the exact meanings of the ANCIENT Hebrew words
Maybe, but Dr. Strong agrees with them and personally I never have seena lexicon that disagree.
Quote-- BARA #H1254 -- appears in -- Ez 23:47 -- and is translated "DISPATCH"...
KJVEze 23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
KJVEze 23:47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and make them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
Could just as wel mean they cut off the stones of a rock...?
KJVGen 1:1 n the beginning God dispatched the heaven and the earth.
KJVGen 1:21 And God dispatch great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
KJVJos 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and dispatch for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
To my best knowledge the complete list of bara verse:
Gen. 1:1,21,27
Gen. 2:3f
Gen. 5:1f
Gen. 6:7
Exod. 34:10
Num. 16:30
Deut. 4:32
Jos. 17:15,18
1 Sam. 2:29
Ps. 51:12
Ps. 89:13,48
Ps. 102:19
Ps. 104:30
Ps. 148:5
Eccl. 12:1
Isa. 4:5
Isa. 40:26,28
Isa. 41:20
Isa. 42:5
Isa. 43:1,7,15
Isa. 45:7f,12,18
Isa. 48:7
Isa. 54:16
Isa. 57:19
Isa. 65:17f
Jer. 31:22
Ezek. 21:24,35
Ezek. 23:47
Ezek. 28:13,15
Amos 4:13
Mal. 2:10
QuoteSECOND --- Then, try Strongs Lexicon which DOES note within the definition of the word BARA --- "dispatch"... and then look up the above Scripture in the KJV, which notes this definition translated into english... :nod:
I did. I can only conclude dr. Strong doesn't agree with the KJV translators. Otherwise he would have added dispatched to his list.
[1] --- Something that IS CREATED = generated --
(1) -- has a beginning --
(2) -- cannot be considered GOD (for it is a created entity, therefore, NOT the creator) --
(3) -- Scripture notes that ALL things that were MADE were
made by the "
WORD" [
Col 1:16 - John 1:3]... this cannot be true if the
WORD itself was "
MADE"... :dontknow:
Quote[2] --- Something "eternal" has no point of "generation/beginning"...
We will never agree on this but imo it's possible. You think in 3 dimentions. There are more. I'll try to explain one simple on as an example.
We know heigth, length, width. If you draw a line you can walk forward an backward on it.
The other dimension is time. We can only go forward on it. Now imagine that we could go back in time. Then you could go back and meet King David. Anyway there are 5 more dimensions. In our 4 dimensions you are totally 100% correct.
But if God add dimension.... :2c:
QuoteFuthermore... In conjunction with this, I believe that we as Sons of God, are "gods" for Scripture notes this to be so -- John 10:34 -- Psalm 82:6 -- having ALWAYS
Can't find always but indeed the were present.
Their presence only proves the allready existed. 1 year? 1 zillion years? 1 hour?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMQuestion: Do Father, Son and HS have the same age?
FIRST --- the "Father, Son Holy Spirit" are emergent of YHVH God, which has no "age"... for "ages" are concerned with TIME, and TIME and all within TIME, are created entities (see Gen 1)
That's just avoiding the question. I'm sure you know what I mean even if you don't like the word age/time.
QuoteSECOND --- You are welcome to your present perception, and I hold no aught against you for it, for we all are (or should be) in the learning process...
Ha! an all knowing teacher....
QuoteBut in my present observation, which is substanciated by the Scriptures, ...these are NOT 3 individual/separate beings... they are 3 manifestations of the SAME being -- YHVH God... Just as your words are not a "separate person" from yourself...
So the answer is "the same age"
QuoteYHVH continuously and SPECIFICALLY notes Himself ALONE, as GOD in the OT, and that NO OTHER can claim to hold the position of "GOD" -- Isaiah 43:10-11 -- Ex 20:1 --
His continuing literally uncountable usages of -- "I, me, mine, He, Him, my" etc.. -- in referring to HIMSELF, more than display a SINGULAR entity which JESUS CHRIST is also subject to -- 1 Cor 15:28
Like the plural Elohim
QuoteThat we are made in HIS (not their) IMAGE
That proves nothing. Does it exclude we are created in the image of angels?
If yes there can be other exclusions.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMThere is a difference between words and The Word. The whole 4th word is little riddle of Father.
I agree... but "THE WORD" has ALWAYS existed in the heart of YHVH and IS GOD... as the Scripture notes:
Ok then I just say it differently. Just as the man/human Jesus was made, The Word was also made. Regardless if both were or weren't allready existing (in another form)
QuoteJohn 1:1 -- THIS statement is the TRUTH... for it IS a firm statement made in "THE WORD" about "THE WORD".
I said my thing on that. Let's not go further with this illegal topic. Imo it has nothing to do with the topic. IF Trinity exists then we still have no proof it always existed. At least I didn't find any.
QuoteThere is NOTHING that cannot be REVEALED... that you consider this to be a "riddle" is your present perception, which in the LEARNING process, can change...
Firstly that's just the way I speak. Secondly I don't master the English as well as people who have lived 65 years in an English speaking country....
QuoteI remain in the position I have already noted...
I already knew that
before your first reply becaue I'm well aware of your favorite word "IS" :winkgrin:
Quotethat the WORD IS GOD and that it has NO BEGINNING or point of "creation"
Never claimed that.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMAnyway I think we are not going to agree (as usual);
You have set up this barrier bro. :sigh:
IS that true willie :angel4:
QuotePresupposing that we shall not agree ("as usual")... as long as you begin any conversation with me, immersed in this presupposition... then it WILL manifest during our conversation...
Come on willie I've read enough posts of you to know fairly well how you think about certain issues.
But I repent and think that you possible agree that Kermit the frog created God. :icon_jokercolor:
QuoteIt is our duty as seekers of the TRUTH, to remain open, irregardless of whom God has placed before us in conversation... to LEARN and be inspired to research. :dontknow:
Vanity is a sin. So I tried to avoid that sin by assuming you would not agree with me. :icon_king:
QuoteAs for me, ...I maintain that NO ONE is "right" except GOD, and he to whom GOD reveals that which is RIGHT...
And since I get zero backup from above I have to do discern (is right wrong) the truth myself.
QuoteThat you and I do not "agree" on any given point, does not matter to me.
It's just that such discussions are pointless.
It's just like trying the convince Hitler that Jews are superior to Germans :happy3:
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:42:48 AMmaybe for further understanding we should check out the other verses I listed in my first post. They also contain that same word. (untranslated) Maybe something is to learn there...
I completely agree with you, WW!
It takes less thatn a minute to look
every occurence of any word.
Hebrew/Greek/English
Alef-Tav, the 4th word, is 7269 times in the OT. If you want the verse numbers ask.
QuoteSee there? We agreed on something! :boogie: ...its a start, no? :dontknow:
I should leave that bottle of Bacardi closed. I'm starting to read strange things :help:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 09:52:31 PM
Is there is no relevence to this post regarding the 4th word? Someone, it seems found some translation for it, did they not?
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
Can you quote it?
I've looked at that handy tool whitewings, thank you for that. To me the word ath is also used with other such as kl, so it become ath-kl, kl means every-of, also been translated as all of, so to put ath before it to me it means ath is some kind of a pause, comma, because there is no grammar and this ath might be the only one to signify a pause. :2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 09:52:31 PM
Is there is no relevence to this post regarding the 4th word? Someone, it seems found some translation for it, did they not?
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
Can you quote it?
Are you maybe presuming it is a word of meaning? These gentlemen say that it is a mark of the accusative; maybe like a hyphen, used in partner with other words for disignation or distinction. I dont know, but I do know that things are not always what they seem.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 10:47:32 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 09:52:31 PM
Is there is no relevence to this post regarding the 4th word? Someone, it seems found some translation for it, did they not?
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
Can you quote it?
Are you maybe presuming it is a word of meaning? These gentlemen say that it is a mark of the accusative; maybe like a hyphen, used in partner with other words for disignation or distinction. I dont know, but I do know that things are not always what they seem.
Well look at that 5 minutes of study, with the spirits help and I come to the same conclusion as these scholars;), amazing!. Not saying what I said is entirely true, just amazing that the spirit can help the fool to become wise, praise the Lord, even if im wrong praise the Lord anyway.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 10:47:32 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 10:30:47 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 09:52:31 PM
Is there is no relevence to this post regarding the 4th word? Someone, it seems found some translation for it, did they not?
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
Can you quote it?
Are you maybe presuming it is a word of meaning? These gentlemen say that it is a mark of the accusative; maybe like a hyphen, used in partner with other words for disignation or distinction. I dont know, but I do know that things are not always what they seem.
Some say it's absolutely nothing. Right now I'm checking the Hebrew Allepo translation and that doesn't even contain the word. Others just say they don't know.
I'm presuming this: If the HS inspired that word is has relevance is
some way.
Besides what the word means in regular reading, I personally think it is also a hidden "code"
For exampe if you analize the letter of the Hebrew for passover you get "Leader nailed to the cross"
Or: the beginning" = "The Son of God will be destroyed by His own hand on de cross"
Torah has something hidden too but I can't remember that.
And more.
So when I wrote ath means "The Word" or "Jesus" or "Alphabet" I didn't mean that's the correct translation.
Even if it means from then it still can also mean "The Word"
Imo the Hebrew text is full of little word games. Just as the whole geneaology is a big word game.
So I'm not looking at the top layer but just beneath it....
Nice book. (http://www.risk-advisor.com/myscripturestudies/Aleph%20Tav%20Study%20book%20Word%20format.pdf)
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776
H853
את
'êth
ayth
Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely): - (As such unrepresented in English.)
H226
אות
'ôth
oth
Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: - mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.
H225
אוּת
'ûth
ooth
A primitive root; properly to come, that is, (impliedly) to assent: - consent.
Now Molly thats what I saying, there has been some work done on those two letters. They maybe a word, they maybe something else, I dont know. But it seems to me that we could have another tributary to follow, now whether than float trip is of worth the look see we do not know. What we dont want to do is stop... and build on another sandy dune that may just winnow away in gusts and burps.
Just my :2c: and my love to you all in Jesus' name
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2010, 01:29:13 AMH853
את
'êth
ayth
Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely): - (As such unrepresented in English.)
So in none English translations the word may have some use?
I think it once had some use in Hebrew too; but somehow the meaning is forgotten. There are guesses, like what you quoted, but there is lots of disagreement and uncertainty. I wonder is the real meaning would give a different meaning to all verses it's used in...?
"In the beginning, YOU were created."
peacemaker
good one, peacemaker.
Yes it is a good one, and when I stop to realize that "you" is we, mankind. And look at the differences and the conflicts of "we" on our way back to ONE.
I dont know about you, but my God is awesome!
http://www.jhshumaker.info/PDF/JESUS_IN_THE_TORAH.pdf
:cloud9: I don't have time right now, but I can't wait to read this! :thumbsup:
'eth (ayth)
self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely) -- (as such unrepresented in English).
biblelexicon.org
eth Adam of Gen 1 --
Gen 1:27 So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) manH120 in his own image,H6754 in the imageH6754 of GodH430 createdH1254 he him; maleH2145 and femaleH5347 createdH1254 he them.
becomes al Adam in the garden--
Gen 2:16 And the LORDH3068 GodH430 commandedH6680 H5921 the man,H120 saying,H559 Of everyH4480 H3605 treeH6086 of the gardenH1588 thou mayest freely eat:H398 H398
al
H5921
על
‛al
al
Properly the same as H5920 used as a preposition (in the singular or plural, often with prefix, or as conjugation with a particle following); above, over, upon, or against (yet always in this last relation with a downward aspect) in a great variety of applications: -
H5920
על
‛al
al
From H5927; properly the top; specifically the Highest (that is, God); also (adverbially) aloft, to Jehovah: - above, high, most High.
Quote from: redhotmagma on May 15, 2011, 03:04:54 PM
'eth (ayth)
self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely) -- (as such unrepresented in English).
biblelexicon.org
I know Red. I also know some scholars have no clue what it means or they believe it has no relavant meaning at all.
Also by using "'eth (ayth)" we start overlooking something.
The letters of that word are Aleph and Tav. The Hebrew equivalent for Alpha and Omega. I guess that rings a bell.
The 2 letters are found in many places in the OT but odd enough also in the very first verse.
Even it's a "silent" word I somehow hear a little voice say: Hi!, it's me AlephTav that this verse is about!
Quote from: wwHi!, it's me AlephTav that this verse is about!
Or, in other words, Hi!, it's me, God, that this verse is about! :winkgrin:
What about Jesus?
I'm thinking Jesus does all that stuff. Aleph=creating ......... 6000 years pass ....... Tav=All reconciled/brought before Father.
I love my Son and give everything in His hand. I'm wondering if teh creation process itself is also part of everything....
Anyway there are many ath verses (that I list within a few mins) that use the word ath.
We had a discussion about how often Lord means Jesus. I think ath may be the key...
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 37:23 And it came to pass, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they stript Joseph out of his coat, his coat of many colours that was on him;
Gen 47:23 Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land.
Exod 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
Lev 6:4 Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,
Lev 14:40 Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
Num 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Judg 11:27 Wherefore I have not sinned against thee, but thou doest me wrong to war against me: the LORD the Judge be judge this day between the children of Israel and the children of Ammon.
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
Isa 19:4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.
Zech 6:8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country. KJV
An extra word in the Bible: finding the mystical in the simple Thursday, August 27, 2009 - 6:29 am Posted by Rabbi Eli Brackman An extra word in the Bible: finding the mystical in the simple
A prominent professor in Oxford recently asked me the following question. In Deuteronomy (6:5) it says, 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might'.
In the Hebrew there is an unnecessary word 'Eth' between the Hebrew words for 'love' and 'the Lord your G-d'. What is the reason for this extra word?
The professor's question was raised in light of the fact that in Leviticus (19:18) it says 'you should love your neighbour as yourself', and omits the word 'Eth' between the Hebrew word for 'love' and 'neighbour'.
His question therefore was why in the context of love of G-d it has the accusative 'Eth', whereas in reference to love of one's neighbour, it is omitted.
The word 'Eth' is a common word in Biblical Hebrew, although not used in Modern Hebrew, and has two possible grammatical meanings. It could be the sign of the defined object, or the preposition meaning 'with'.
From a grammatical point of view, there is no need for a comprehensive explanation for the inclusion of the word 'Eth' in some instances and omission in others.
The subject of this seemingly extra word is however discussed in the Talmud and mysticism, and is based on the premise that every extra word and letter - not to mention extra sections - in the Torah may be used for exegesis and legal subtleties.
We will therefore approach this question from an exegetical point of view first followed by a mystical perspective, which ultimately proves most satisfactory in our case.
Three exegetical meanings
There are three possible exegetical meanings to the word 'Eth' found in the Talmud. One is that it is merely meant to clarify that the words following 'Eth' are meant to be understood not euphemistically but literally. A second is to indicate the inclusion of something besides that which is explicitly mentioned in the text. Finally, the word 'Eth' comes to separate two matters from each other.
Literalism
The sources for explanations are as follows.
The Talmud (Chagigah 12a) states: 'R. Ishmael questioned R. Akiba when they were going on a journey together, saying to him: You who have waited twenty-two years upon Nahum of Gimzo, who used to explain the particle 'Eth' throughout the Torah, tell me what exposition did he give of (Gen. 1:1) In the beginning G-d created 'Eth' the heaven and 'Eth' the earth? R. Akiba said to him: If it had said just heaven and earth, I could have said that heaven and earth were names of the Holy One, blessed be He, but now that it says 'Eth' the heaven and 'Eth' the earth, heaven means the actual heaven, and earth means the actual earth.'
The word 'Eth' is thus to clarify that the Hebrew words for heaven and earth are to be understood literally.
Extension
Another meaning of the word 'Eth' can be found in a number of other sources in the Talmud.
In Leviticus (14:9) it is written, 'And he shall wash [Eth] his flesh in water'. The Talmud (Sukkah 6a) explains that the word 'Eth' includes also that which is joined to his body, i.e., his hair, implying that not only must the flesh be immersed in the water for ritual purity when spiritually unclean but also the hair.
Thus, the word 'Eth' comes to extend the explicit meaning of the word.
The Talmud relates that a certain Simeon the Imsonite (Baba Kama 41b) used to expound the term 'Eth' wherever it occurred in the Torah. When, however, he reached, 'Thou shalt fear [Eth] the Lord thy God,' he abstained. His disciples said to him: Rabbi, what is to be done with all the expositions of the term 'Eth' which you have already given? He said to them: Just as I have received reward for the previous expositions so have I received reward for the present abstention, since one should not fear anyone other than G-d. When R. Akiba, however, came, he taught: 'Thou shalt fear [Eth] the Lord thy God' implies that the scholarly disciples are also to be feared in light of their Torah knowledge and their own complete fear of G-d.
In the final analysis the meaning of Eth, as inclusion, was upheld by R. Akiba.
Additional facts
The word 'Eth' as inclusion is also applied in a factual sense. With regard to those who entered Egypt with the Biblical patriarch Jacob, scripture (Genesis 46:27) says in one place that seventy in their total descended, whereas in their detailed enumeration (Gen. 46:8-27) only sixty nine are listed.
The Talmud (Baba Bathra 123a) quotes the opinion of the sage R. Hiyya b. Abba, who reconciles this by expounding on the scriptural text (Gen. 46:15) 'These are the sons of Leah, whom she bore to Jacob in Padan-Aram, and [Eth] his daughter Dinah; all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty three.'
R. Hiya b. Abba explained that since it says 'Eth' in addition to the words 'And his daughter Dinah', it implies an addition in this context that a twin sister was born with Dinah.
This, he says, accounts for the number seventy, since although the twin was omitted in the detailed enumeration, she was added to the general number seventy.
Separation
There is a second possible implication to this additional word in the Torah. It is that the seemingly unnecessary word is inserted to indicate an interruption between the content of the two words on either side of it.
An example for the interruption theory is from the book of Esther.
The Scripture says that celebrations marking the victory of the Jews over their enemies during the Persian exile in fourth century BCE should be conducted on 'the fourteenth day and [Eth] the fifteenth' of the Hebrew month of Adar.
The Talmud (Megillah 2b) analyses this as follows: If the text had said 'the fourteenth day and fifteenth' without the word 'Eth' before the word 'fifteenth' you would have been correct to suggest that it implies celebrations should be conducting for two consecutive days on the fourteenth and also the fifteenth. Since, however, it is written 'the fourteenth day and [Eth] the fifteenth, the 'Eth' makes a distinction. One set of celebrations, for the villages, takes place on the fourteenth and the other set of celebrations, for those surrounded by a wall, as the capital city of Susa, on the fifteenth.
Thus, the word 'Eth' comes to indicate that one should not read both dates, fourteenth and fifteenth, together but as alternatives, relating to two separate places.
Can this be applied to 'Love of G-d'?
Neither of the above explanations, 'Eth' as extension or interruption are suggested in the Talmud for the verse 'Love the Lord your G-d'.
This poses more of an enigma as the solution is indeed debated, as mentioned above, regarding 'Fear your G-d' but the problem is not raised and no solution is given for the extra word in the verse regarding love of G-d.
We will attempt to explore whether the above interpretations would be logical in the case of love of G-d.
Extension to love of G-d
In the case of fear of G-d it makes sense that there is a problem with inclusion, since how can there possibly be a fear that is in comparison to fear of G-d. In fact, aside from the opinion of R. Akiba, one should have no fear other than for G-d.
In the case of love, there would not seem to be the same apprehension. Although one's love of G-d should surpass the love for other objects, the Torah says one should also love thy neighbour and the stranger in your midst (Deut. 10:19).
This suggests that extension to love of G-d does not present any theological problem.
This might be the reason why the question for the word 'Eth' in the context of love of G-d is not raised, as indeed it is obvious to anyone who is a familiar with scripture that one should love others in addition to G-d.
Furthermore, according to Jewish mysticism the love of G-d and love thy neighbour are two sides of the same coin (Hayom Yom), since it says that G-d made man in His image. Therefore if one truly loves G-d one should equally love the G-dliness that is within every human being.
The problem with this answer however is that although the above point is true it would not justify the use of the word 'Eth' unless there is a specific inclusion. Scripture would not have added this word to include the need to love a fellow human being and stranger, which is already explicitly written in scripture.
Separation for love of G-d
What about applying the theory of interruption to this verse? It is logical that there is a difference between love of man and love of G-d, since, as the Psalmist says (ch. 116) the abode of G-d is in the Heavens – the spiritual – love of G-d can hardly be as tangible as love towards another human being. This difference might be indicated by the word 'Eth'.
This is however inconsistent with Jewish teaching, since, on the contrary, love of G-d should be more total than love of a human being. The verse 'love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, all your soul and all your might' is interpreted to mean that even if one needs to give one's life for his or her belief one should do so.
This is not the case for love of thy neighbour. Saving the life of another human being extends only to giving up all of one's possessions but does not include life itself. An example for this is the Jewish ethical view on organ donation. Even a kidney transplant that can be performed while living, or a posthumous organ transplant, is not an obligation according to most Jewish legal authorities, as this goes beyond one's duty to help save the life of another human being (Encyclopaedia of Jewish Medical Ethics).
Nullification
The negation of the two Talmudic interpretations suggests the additional word 'Eth' in the context of love of G-d may be connected to a more simple understanding of the word, which in this case helps define the total love one needs for G-d.
This is consistent with the simpler meaning of the word mentioned at the beginning of this essay - 'Eth' meaning 'with'.
Accordingly, the word 'Eth' does not imply an inclusion of another subject not mentioned explicitly but in fact the total inclusion of the self with G-d.
This interpretation is found in a Jewish mystical text of 1905 by Rabbi Sholom Dov Ber of Lubavitch (Sefer Hamamorim 5665 p. 15). Rabbi Sholom Dov Ber analyses the word 'Eth' in the context of love of G-d, whereby he resolves the question posed at the beginning of this essay.
He explains that there two contradictory meditations that accompany the reading of the daily morning liturgy in the Jewish prayer book. The first is 'verses of praise', which includes numerous chapters from the end of Psalms. This meditation deals with the existence of the world and its dependence on the Creator as its sole source.
The second section contains the reciting of 'Hear of Israel, the Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One.' This section suggests a different meditation dwelling on the nullification rather than creation of existence. It concentrates on the fact that from the perspective of G-d, the world is non-existent compared to His existence.
This second meditation is an emotion of total self –nullification, self-abnegation and absolute love of G-d.
He concludes this point by explaining that the word 'Eth' in the verse about love of G-d contains the simple meaning 'with', which implies secondary to something more important. In the context of prayer it suggests the total nullification of the person to G-d.
The purpose of the word 'Eth' in this context is then indeed best understood not by an exegetical interpretation but in its simple meaning 'with'. In the simple interpretation of this word it emphasises a deep mystical meditation that all of existence is nullified before G-d's existence and the need for a human being to have total self abnegation, which manifests itself in absolute love of G-d.
This then explains why the word 'Eth' is added in the context of love of G-d but not when talking about love of one's neighbour, since while one should have love and respect of another human being, one needs to have total self - nullification only towards G-d.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2011, 03:07:19 PM
What about Jesus?
I'm thinking Jesus does all that stuff. Aleph=creating ......... 6000 years pass ....... Tav=All reconciled/brought before Father.
I love my Son and give everything in His hand. I'm wondering if teh creation process itself is also part of everything....
Anyway there are many ath verses (that I list within a few mins) that use the word ath.
We had a discussion about how often Lord means Jesus. I think ath may be the key...
Jesus--everything is created by him, for him, and through him.
In the first and last book of Revelation, Jesus says that he is the alpha and the omega.
But this story is all about Jesus and man--so I have often thought of the alpha as Adam and the omega as Christ--and he is both--because everything starts and ends with him.
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
--Col 1
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. --Rev 22
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: wwHi!, it's me AlephTav that this verse is about!
Or, in other words, Hi!, it's me, God, that this verse is about! :winkgrin:
But the the verse reads: In the begining God God created...
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: wwHi!, it's me AlephTav that this verse is about!
Or, in other words, Hi!, it's me, God, that this verse is about! :winkgrin:
But the the verse reads: In the begining God God created...
It's more like, In the beginning, God created AlephTav heaven earth.
The eth word is before heaven earth.
So we start out with AlephTav heaven earth, and then something happens [gap]?
I could take it further, but I'll stop there for now.
The 4th word out of 7 would make sense that Ath is the AlphaOmega.
Central word of the creation story (first verse) He is central to creation as From, through, and to Him are ALL things
Sun, Moon, Stars 4th day
Christ, Church, ? 4th day (4000th year)
3x+1 at it again
I just wonder how that plays out in the rest of the Bible. The word is used over 7000 times, so does it imply Christ everytime? It seems it would almost be like the word "the" implied Christ. Not saying thats not the case, maybe God literally imprinted one title all over every page of the OT.
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 05:27:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: wwHi!, it's me AlephTav that this verse is about!
Or, in other words, Hi!, it's me, God, that this verse is about! :winkgrin:
But the the verse reads: In the begining God God created...
It's more like, In the beginning, God created AlephTav heaven earth.
The eth word is before heaven earth.
So we start out with AlephTav heaven earth, and then something happens [gap]?
I could take it further, but I'll stop there for now.
its: AT heavens AT earth
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776
One 'eth'. No word for 'the,' no word for 'and'.
eth heaven earth=3 words
"in the beginning"
H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shı̂yth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
It seems like he might be talking about a spiritual heaven earth.
http://biblos.com/genesis/1-1.htm
Transliteration Strong's English
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית be·re·crap 7225 in the beginning
בָּרָ֣א ba·ra 1254 created
אֱלֹהִ֑ים e·lo·him; 430 God
אֵ֥ת et 853
הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם ha·sha·ma·yim 8064 the heavens
וְאֵ֥ת ve·'et 853
הָאָֽרֶץ׃ ha·'a·retz. 776 the earth
maybe its where we get the word "the" from, Hebrew was written right to left, English left to right. ath or eth backwards (phonetically) is the :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 05:27:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 02:57:54 PM
Quote from: wwHi!, it's me AlephTav that this verse is about!
Or, in other words, Hi!, it's me, God, that this verse is about! :winkgrin:
But the the verse reads: In the begining God God created...
It's more like, In the beginning, God created AlephTav heaven earth.
Or: In the beginning the God-Son created...
Quote
So we start out with AlephTav heaven earth, and then something happens [gap]?
I could take it further, but I'll stop there for now.
Let's add 2 more verses to teh discussion
Exod 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
and.you-warn (ath) them with the.statues and (ath) the.laws and.you-make-known to.them (ath) the.way they-shall-go in.her and.(ath) the.deed which they-shall-do
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
in.year-of death-of the.king Uzziah and.I-am-seeing (ath) my-Lord sitting on throne being-high and.being-lifted-up and-skirts-of-him ones-filling (ath) the.temple
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2011, 03:19:44 PM
The purpose of the word 'Eth' in this context is then indeed best understood not by an exegetical interpretation but in its simple meaning 'with'. In the simple interpretation of this word it emphasises a deep mystical meditation that all of existence is nullified before G-d's existence and the need for a human being to have total self abnegation, which manifests itself in absolute love of G-d.[/size][/font]
This then explains why the word 'Eth' is added in the context of love of G-d but not when talking about love of one's neighbour, since while one should have love and respect of another human being, one needs to have total self - nullification only towards G-d.
:cloud9: This makes perfect sense to me and reminded me of one of the first things He spoke to me 25 years ago. He said, "You are to bow the knee to no man, but only to My Spirit." I understood He ALSO meant, HIS Spirit IN man (when I heard it). Same principle as outlined above. Fascinating article, WW, thanks :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on May 18, 2011, 05:45:12 PM
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776
One 'eth'. No word for 'the,' no word for 'and'.
eth heaven earth=3 words
"in the beginning"
H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shı̂yth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
It seems like he might be talking about a spiritual heaven earth.
:cloud9: I think He is. He gave me, "In the FIRSTFRUITS (same word as beginning), God created the heaven (spirit) and the earth (soul)."
We don't think of soul which is also a spiritual entity as being of the earth, but natural wisdom is described as sensual, as opposed to the wisdom that comes from above. Both are spiritual, but one is created a little lower.
Soulish wisdom we understand to be less than Christ's wisdom, but yet we tend to tie it into the natural fleshly senses, making it more physical than spiritual in make-up. But it is a spiritual thing that expresses itself thru the natural.
The natural senses mirror what the soul interprets. This is why we look thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) = Christ must illuminate all of it for there to be no darkness.
When He finished with this process, it will also be interpreted as, "In the firstfruits, God created the mind of Christ and the glorified body." Blessings....
Re: The fourth word
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2010, 05:50:37 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament Francis Brown, S.R. Driver, C.A. Briggs Oxford Press.
I believe that Willie H. seen it properly.
The word is in many more places as well.
According to this Lexicon page 84 it is called " the mark of the accusative"(disignating)
prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite.
Gen 1:1 In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853)
Gen 4:1 And AdamH121 knewH3045 (H853)
Gen 8:8 Also he sent forthH7971 (H853
Gen 29:27 FulfilH4390 herH2063 week,H7620 and we will giveH5414 thee(H853)
There is just so much yet to see!
was reading Genesis 4:1, came across AT 0854, this is translated as with.
As far as I can see its the exact same word, whats up with that? My understanding of this stuff is about this much"...".
Quote from: redhotmagma on May 19, 2011, 03:03:18 PM
was reading Genesis 4:1, came across AT 0854, this is translated as with.
As far as I can see its the exact same word, whats up with that? My understanding of this stuff is about this much"...".
Read reply #94
The word is more than a bit of grammar.
what I meant was why does Strongs have it as different words, when it is the same word. Is it just that when they choose to translate it as "with" they make it 0854, and when they don't its 0853? 0855 AT = plowshare?
Along that same line in Gen 1:1, the first instance is AT (401 value), the second is WAT (406). Still comes up as 0853.
Stongs are based on a KJV taht's no longer sold (IIRC)
KJV used to have note in the sideline. Like "or can also be translated as ..." or "some manuscripts..."
Besides of that Strong ofen uses several English words for one Hebrew word.
Biblical Hebrew had a remarkably small number of words – 8,000 at most, with 1,700 used only once
Meaning many words have several meanings and the right one has to be determined by context.
Just like in English. What does right mean...? :winkgrin:
Why is this 4th word holding a focus? This 4th word is an accomplice, set to help and disignate. " the mark of the accusative"(disignating) prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite."
Are we seeking mysteries or are we praying to understand the mysteries and deep things of the Word that are written for those who seek understanding?
I ask only with a humble interest.
:cloud9: Because HE is the Word, so every jot and tittle is important in it's own right :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 20, 2011, 02:20:04 AM
:cloud9: Because HE is the Word, so every jot and tittle is important in it's own right :2c:
What has that got to do with this? I again am without understanding. :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 20, 2011, 01:36:47 AM
Why is this 4th word holding a focus? This 4th word is an accomplice, set to help and disignate. " the mark of the accusative"(disignating) prefixed as a rule only to nouns that are difinite."
Are we seeking mysteries or are we praying to understand the mysteries and deep things of the Word that are written for those who seek understanding?
I ask only with a humble interest.
Again my answer is read #94
But I'll try to explain in a very direct way.
WW says: Jesus was a man Micah. It's all correct translated. He was a man of flesh and blood just like you are.
Micah answers: That is true but He is ALSO the Son of God. Our Saviour. He also is .... and ... and .... and ....
See my claim was 100% correct. But your answer was more complete.
Same for the 4th word. Your claim is 100% correct. But it is a long way from complete.
And THAT is what this thread is about...
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/196/
It may come as a surprise to many of our readers that one of the common, virtually obligatory, qualifications among the professionals in the Greco-Roman world was that of a tachygrphos, or shorthand writer.6
Among the disciples, Matthew, a former customs official, would also likely have had a working knowledge of tachygraphy, and thus may have been able to transcribe the Sermon on the Mount verbatim, just as Tertius and others were able to transcribe Paul's more verbose utterances.7
Even in the Old Testament, in Psalm 45:1, the Hebrew, sopher mehir, the "ready writer (KJV)," or "skillful writer (NIV)," is translated in the Greek Septuagint, oxugrafoV, oxygrphos, a synonym for tachygrphos, or shorthand writer. The technical term must have been common enough among Greek-speaking Jews in the 3rd century B.C. for its use in the Septuagint to have any purpose.
Paul also mentions a technical term, membranae, a Latin word transcribed into Greek, referring to a parchment notebook.8 This was apparently a predecessor to the codex, or "book" that we know today. These were written on both sides of the sheet and were small and often pocket-sized. They were easy to handle, to skip through for reference, and to store, and thus led to the ultimate departure from the traditional scrolls.
The tedious, painstaking tasks of record-keeping in the ancient world is difficult for us to imagine today. Thus, it is understandable that abbreviations were even more common in antiquity than today.
Even in our linguistic world, when a technical term emerges, or a complex phrase is used with substantial frequency, we indulge in abbreviations or acronyms: NATO for North Atlantic Treaty Organization; DNA for deoxyribonucleic acid; or the alphabet soup associated with governmental organizations: CIA, FBI, DOD, et al.9
One of the more significant incidences of abbreviated words, found even on the earliest samples of formalized writing, is the use of nomina sacra, holy names.10 One example is the chi-rho, Cr, a monogram of Christ consisting of the first two letters of His name in Greek, CristoV, Christos. Others include:
Jesus, IhsouV Iesous = IV
God, qeoV, Theos = qV
Holy Spirit, pneuma, Pneuma = pna
Why are these "holy names" important? They were deliberate; their use was regular and systematic from the start. The scribes did not employ these to simply save space on a sheet of papyrus: the key point is that these "holy names" reflected a theological position.
The word "Lord," kurioV, kurios, could be applied to many different persons far removed from the Trinity; however, when abbreviated kV, it became a divine name, referring to Jesus.
In the Old Testament, we note a more subtle abbreviation in the use of the heh, for the Ruach Elohim, the Holy Spirit. An example of this occurs in Genesis 17. When the names of Abram11 and Sarai12 were changed to Abra(H)am13 and Sara(H)14 it was accomplished by simply inserting the heh into their names, marking the involvement of the Spirit of God into their lives.
The First and the Last
In numerous places in both the Old and New Testaments, God refers to Himself as "the First and the Last."15 This is also explicit in the New Testament identifiers, "Alpha and Omega," the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.16 (In several of these references, they are unquestionably references to Jesus Christ Himself.17)
In the Old Testament, we frequently encounter the letters aleph, and the tau, the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. When used with a connector-bar, a maqqeph, the two-letter prefix, at-,is used as a grammatical element to indicate a direct object. There are also instances, however, where aleph tau is used as a pronoun to indicate the second person masculine singular; a hypocatastasis ("putting down underneath"), a kind of grammatical pun: "a hidden declarative implied metaphor expressing a superlative degree of resemblance."18 For example, in Zechariah 12 we find the prophecy of the Messiah's climactic appearance to Israel:
...and they shall look upon me [aleph tau] whom they have pierced... Zechariah 12:10
The untranslated aleph tau could be translated as follows:
"... and they shall look upon me, the aleph and the tau, whom they have pierced."
...in which the aleph and the tau, the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, are, thus, equivalent to the alpha and the omega in the Greek.
We also find the same untranslated letters in Genesis 1:
In the beginning God [aleph tau] created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
This Aleph and Tau, that created the heavens and the earth, is the same Aleph and Tau whom they pierced on the wooden cross erected in Judea almost 2,000 years ago.19 And this Ultimate Nomina Sacrum is scheduled to return when He is least expected.
Thanks Red,
More proof that replacing Alepph Tav with Jesus goes a long way.
Gen 3:8 and.the-are-hearing ath - sound-of Yaweh Elohim walking in.the.garden to.wind-of the.day
The above verse uses a connector bar. Never noticed those connector bars :sigh:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen3.pdf
"Yaweh Elohim walking in.the.garden to.wind-of the.day"
Sounds like: The family of God moving perfectly in Christ.
Quote from: redhotmagma on May 20, 2011, 01:32:53 PM
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/196/
It may come as a surprise to many of our readers that one of the common, virtually obligatory, qualifications among the professionals in the Greco-Roman world was that of a tachygrphos, or shorthand writer.6
Among the disciples, Matthew, a former customs official, would also likely have had a working knowledge of tachygraphy, and thus may have been able to transcribe the Sermon on the Mount verbatim, just as Tertius and others were able to transcribe Paul's more verbose utterances.7
Even in the Old Testament, in Psalm 45:1, the Hebrew, sopher mehir, the "ready writer (KJV)," or "skillful writer (NIV)," is translated in the Greek Septuagint, oxugrafoV, oxygrphos, a synonym for tachygrphos, or shorthand writer. The technical term must have been common enough among Greek-speaking Jews in the 3rd century B.C. for its use in the Septuagint to have any purpose.
Paul also mentions a technical term, membranae, a Latin word transcribed into Greek, referring to a parchment notebook.8 This was apparently a predecessor to the codex, or "book" that we know today. These were written on both sides of the sheet and were small and often pocket-sized. They were easy to handle, to skip through for reference, and to store, and thus led to the ultimate departure from the traditional scrolls.
The tedious, painstaking tasks of record-keeping in the ancient world is difficult for us to imagine today. Thus, it is understandable that abbreviations were even more common in antiquity than today.
Even in our linguistic world, when a technical term emerges, or a complex phrase is used with substantial frequency, we indulge in abbreviations or acronyms: NATO for North Atlantic Treaty Organization; DNA for deoxyribonucleic acid; or the alphabet soup associated with governmental organizations: CIA, FBI, DOD, et al.9
One of the more significant incidences of abbreviated words, found even on the earliest samples of formalized writing, is the use of nomina sacra, holy names.10 One example is the chi-rho, Cr, a monogram of Christ consisting of the first two letters of His name in Greek, CristoV, Christos. Others include:
Jesus, IhsouV Iesous = IV
God, qeoV, Theos = qV
Holy Spirit, pneuma, Pneuma = pna
Why are these "holy names" important? They were deliberate; their use was regular and systematic from the start. The scribes did not employ these to simply save space on a sheet of papyrus: the key point is that these "holy names" reflected a theological position.
The word "Lord," kurioV, kurios, could be applied to many different persons far removed from the Trinity; however, when abbreviated kV, it became a divine name, referring to Jesus.
In the Old Testament, we note a more subtle abbreviation in the use of the heh, for the Ruach Elohim, the Holy Spirit. An example of this occurs in Genesis 17. When the names of Abram11 and Sarai12 were changed to Abra(H)am13 and Sara(H)14 it was accomplished by simply inserting the heh into their names, marking the involvement of the Spirit of God into their lives.
The First and the Last
In numerous places in both the Old and New Testaments, God refers to Himself as "the First and the Last."15 This is also explicit in the New Testament identifiers, "Alpha and Omega," the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.16 (In several of these references, they are unquestionably references to Jesus Christ Himself.17)
In the Old Testament, we frequently encounter the letters aleph, and the tau, the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet. When used with a connector-bar, a maqqeph, the two-letter prefix, at-,is used as a grammatical element to indicate a direct object. There are also instances, however, where aleph tau is used as a pronoun to indicate the second person masculine singular; a hypocatastasis ("putting down underneath"), a kind of grammatical pun: "a hidden declarative implied metaphor expressing a superlative degree of resemblance."18 For example, in Zechariah 12 we find the prophecy of the Messiah's climactic appearance to Israel:
...and they shall look upon me [aleph tau] whom they have pierced... Zechariah 12:10
The untranslated aleph tau could be translated as follows:
"... and they shall look upon me, the aleph and the tau, whom they have pierced."
...in which the aleph and the tau, the first and last letters of the Hebrew alphabet, are, thus, equivalent to the alpha and the omega in the Greek.
We also find the same untranslated letters in Genesis 1:
In the beginning God [aleph tau] created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
This Aleph and Tau, that created the heavens and the earth, is the same Aleph and Tau whom they pierced on the wooden cross erected in Judea almost 2,000 years ago.19 And this Ultimate Nomina Sacrum is scheduled to return when He is least expected.
I loved this. It would make sense that he is the Aleph Tav. He is the Word. And, he gave his man, Adam, language.
Gen. 1:1 In the BEGINNING...
Beginning Gen.1:1 H7225 rê'shı̂yth From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing. H7218 rô'sh From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literally or figuratively (in many applications, of place, time, rank, etc.): - band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief (-est place, man, things), company, end, X every [man], excellent, first, forefront, ([be-]) head, height, (on) high (-est part, [priest]), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."
1Co 15:20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him,
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last.
:bigGrin:
186אֵת ('ēt) I. Untranslated particle.
An untranslated particle in Hebrew often described in grammars (somewhat superficially) as the sign of the direct object after a transitive verb. Its origin is unknown. The prevailing view is that 'ēt was originally a noun meaning "essence, substance, self," a significance which it subsequently lost in the historical development of the language.
When 'ēt is used to signify an accusative (nota accusativi) it is generally, though not always, in prose and when the object of the verb is determined by the definite article. More important than indicating an accusative, the function of 'ēt is to emphasize the word to which it is attached.
For this reason one observes that 'ēt is used not only with the accusative but with the subject (nota nominatii) of both intransitive and passive verbs. Copious illustrations could be offered but two will suffice. With 'ēt as subject of an intransitive verb compare II Kgs 6:5: "The axe-head fell into the water" (wĕ'et-habbarzel nāpal 'el-hammāyı̂m). With 'ēt as subject of a passive verb compare Gen 17:5; "And your name ('et-shimkâ) shall no more be called Abram."
To summarize, 'ēt was originally a substantive, and was used to emphasize the noun to which it was prefixed. In the course of time the emphatic meaning was lost and 'ēt became a particle with no special meaning.
Bibliography: On a similar particle in other Semitic languages and texts: Andersen, F. I., "Moabite Syntax," Orientalia 35:117–18. Leahy, T., "Studies in the Syntax of IQS," Bib 41:152–54.
On Biblical Hebrew 'ēt: Hoftijzer, J., "Remarks Concerning the Use of the Particle 't in Classical Hebrew," Oudtestamentisrhe Studiën 14:1–99. MacDonald, J., "The Particle 't in Classical Hebrew," VT 14:263–75. Saydon, P. P., "Meanings and Uses of the Particle 't," VT 14:192–210. Walker, N., "Concerning the Function of 'eth," VT 5:314–15.
V.P.H.
I'm gonna transplant our discussion on el here if you don't mind.
Lets take the word sex. asexual homosexual, hypersexual. we know the word sex, its important to us. (the entire field of marketing would be dead without it)
Now take El, or el. I understand the word isn't translated as meaning God. But, that word is used thousands of times in the Bible. It would be like the word sex for us meant sex and toward.
Personally if that were the case I'd probably notice.
I'm not sure if I have a question. hmm... how bout... whats up with that?
את = Aleph Tav = Fourth word of Gen 1:1
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