To what I have heard, the bible has many contradictions and errors. Apparently, the bible is the copies of what have been translated. How can we know what is true?
The first step should be figuring out what those contradictions are. And if they are really contradictions.
And of course the definition of Bible.
By my defenition none exists today. The originals are gone so we can never verify if the current copies are ok. Any error that slipped in, is not 'the Bible'.
On top of that even a perfect translation (which is totally impossible imo) misses lots of depth. Possibly so much it can't be really called God's word anymore.
Example: The Hebrew OT is a color photo. The best English translation is black and white photo. Many are black and white drawings.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/bible-contradictions-(between-translations)/msg33656/#msg33656
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 23, 2012, 10:33:41 PM
The first step should be figuring out what those contradictions are. And if they are really contradictions.
And of course the definition of Bible.
By my defenition none exists today. The originals are gone so we can never verify if the current copies are ok. Any error that slipped in, is not 'the Bible'.
On top of that even a perfect translation (which is totally impossible imo) misses lots of depth. Possibly so much it can't be really called God's word anymore.
Example: The Hebrew OT is a color photo. The best English translation is black and white photo. Many are black and white drawings.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/bible-contradictions-(between-translations)/msg33656/#msg33656
Thanks for the link. I wish the copies weren't gone. Maybe we should just ask God for the answers. I'm sure He can answer our queries. :smile:
I don't believe we have any single one "perfect" translation. However, 99%+ of the oldest manuscripts agree. Within that, God has preserved His written Word for us. I believe we need to read the most accurate translations available, search within them, and ask for revelation of what the truth is within those scriptures and within God's mind and will. In the process of things, more accurate translations will come. At the same time, I believe we should not take the road to error of so many today, who dismiss the scriptures for their own imaginations.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/
QuoteHowever, 99%+ of the oldest manuscripts agree.
ot all translations are based on the best manuscripts which are discovered only 'recently'. Even 100% perpect copies aren't a guarantee for 100% perfect translations.
QuoteIn the process of things, more accurate translations will come.
I think that could be true. But I doubt 'lost in translation' can be totally avoided. A perfect English translation will be at least teh double size of what we have now. Half of it would be footnotes. For example see teh idiom thread. Alls sort of word games with double meanings. Names of people really having a (prophetic) meaning. Even letters having a double menaing in context. Full understanding of the ancient mindset Etc etc.
Sure even the worst translation will teach 'you' lots of things. But to get everything right...
The Sadduccee and Pharisees didn't get it right either and they surely were very much part of their own culture. So likely my expectations are to high. :winkgrin: (but still the best goal to persue I think)
Hi happy. :)
The Bible has been used for centuries as the authority on spiritual truth. I know from experience that if you earnestly pray for the Lord to open up your eyes to the truth He will, regardless of translation or "error". And you are definitely on the right track with your line of thought - go to God, He can and will answer your queries! (He's the only One who we can know for sure we got the right answer from. :bigGrin:)
Blessings to you!
Quote from: lomarah on June 24, 2012, 02:43:36 AM
Hi happy. :)
The Bible has been used for centuries as the authority on spiritual truth. I know from experience that if you earnestly pray for the Lord to open up your eyes to the truth He will, regardless of translation or "error". And you are definitely on the right track with your line of thought - go to God, He can and will answer your queries! (He's the only One who we can know for sure we got the right answer from. :bigGrin:)
Blessings to you!
Yes you're so right :) God bless you too :)
The Holy Spirit gives us the Bible in a relational database. We are given a series of pointers that point to all the related items under a given query. The Bible doesn't just say one thing and move on to the next. It keeps repeating the same thing in many ways, forms, and illustrations.
Thus, if you read one passage of scripture, the Spirit will point you to all other associated passages as they are relevant to your own personal learning curve.
It is a 'living' book.
Because of this, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 'bad' translation of the Bible.
Impossible.
Even if a Bible mistranslates on purpose, like JW Bible on John 1:1, the Spirit will point you to all other related items which will prove to you that passage has been incorrectly translated. They would have to rewrite the entire Bible to get away with purposeful mistranslations, and nobody is going to do that because they cannot.
God has written a book that cannot be forged.
YES Molly, AMEN!
I think Happycheeks has a great question. So, can I only obtain truth if I have a doctorate in theology with a minor in Greek and Hebrew? How do I know what is truth and what isn't? So is it our study that brings knowledge and wisdom? There many scholarly men who study the Bible that I suspect don't know God more than anyone else. We have doctrines that have survived centuries based upon their studies. I would believe that they thought they knew and understood truth. They had their trusted translation, study and insights. What makes us so arrogant to think our study is any better than theirs?
Let me tell you a story. For years, I suffered from religious arrogance, still do to a point...fight it daily. I would try to share my multiple views with my mother in law. She quietly listened. She would smile, nod. I felt that my knowledge was superior and I had a greater understanding of Scripture. I felt I could "educate" her. Fast forward...and recently I began sharing about UR. Again she smiled, nodded, and then she spoke. She said yes this what I know to be true. Wha? She knows this to be true? How? She isn't well studied. She still reads out of the NIV...gasp! How did she know? She has an intimate relationship with Christ, and she is able to discern truth from fiction. Relationship with Christ is first...number one...and everything else follows that. All else is ego.
I think you made a very good point Shawn. The HS can teach from any book. I've even read muslims converted to Christianity. So my guess the quran is a great book for Christians too.
Truth can be gleaned from anywhere, WITH the HS. Yes. And truth will be overlooked without it. (Hence the Pharisees, modern day church system, etc.) I don't know much about the quran but I think I would stick to the Bible unless otherwise led by the Lord. Just my two cents...
Why did God order/inspire to write down the Bible?
Why does the Bible warn about adding, removing or otherwise changing?
I also have a strong feeling Jesus was very well studied in both the written and oral teachings of His (OT) time.
I can accept there is a step beyond the written Bible. Even hundreds of steps beyond.
But calling the Bible some sort religous accessory? Nah, I don't think that right.
Yes Wings, the Bible is definitely the book to go to... my point and I think Molly's point, is that without the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth we don't have a great chance of discerning much of what the Bible is actually telling us. (IE Spiritual truth.) Like when Jesus said to the Pharisees, you study the scriptures because you think that in them you have life, but you will not come to Me. The Spirit is what gives life. And the Spirit is the teacher of the truth. The truth sets us free.
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.
Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.
I pretty much agree. :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2012, 10:33:07 PM
Why did God order/inspire to write down the Bible?
Why does the Bible warn about adding, removing or otherwise changing?
I also have a strong feeling Jesus was very well studied in both the written and oral teachings of His (OT) time.
I can accept there is a step beyond the written Bible. Even hundreds of steps beyond.
But calling the Bible some sort religous accessory? Nah, I don't think that right.
And why do we have 1 book and numerous denominations? Why one book and so much difference in opinion? So that this small group of people could carry around the secret? Because we are special? We are in danger of the same arrogance and dogmatic thinking that has plagued the church. Yet we are different?
I have already made these points with you before. You know my stance about the Bible. You can't possibly understand it beyond the natural points without relationship to Christ. While God can use anything including the secular to speak to us, the Bible is the Holy inspired word of God. I just disagree on how we are to approach understanding. If we spent the hours and hours we pour over Greek, concordances, dissecting word after phrase...as do seeking his face...the church would be changed for the better. Seek his face first, then forget everything man has taught you about the Bible, then take a fresh look. Through the eyes of human study it looks one way...through the eyes of knowing God through relationship it looks very different.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2012, 11:41:58 PM
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.
I like that summary. It's balanced and covers a lot of territory. The Holy Spirit revealing and quickening what's written
and said...testing all things, studying to show oneself approved, properly handling the Word of truth..seeking the Lord/yielding to Him. IMO,
all those things are "holding fast to that which is good". :2c:
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
--Mat 4:4
where was this written? Here:
Deuteronomy 8:3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2012, 11:41:58 PM
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.
Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.
Paul said the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". IMO- The Holy Spirit has a lot to do with this topic. The ideal being that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth(as Jesus said).....teach us through the pitfalls of man's corruption.....put salt on it(the word) and us(the body) so that we can sort it out through fellowship and midrash. Certainly, no other spirit is behind the efforts to restore the truth of the "writings/scrolls"(biblos). Since Peter says these words are given to no individual man's private interpretation because the were "breathed" by the spirit through men set apart for that purpose..... and since Jesus says the Spirit will "bring all things to remembrance", I think the Spirit is the only means by which the word can be made pure(core intent- becoming like God through fellowship in the Spirit of Christ). IMO If there is no restoration of truth or unity of the faith possible, then the word of God is full of plainly told lies(not mistranslations) about itself and is a waste of time beyond its historical, literary and philosophical value.
Terrific post Eaglesway.
A messenger (or, angel) carries a message and spirit to quicken to life according the that message. The word is the container for its spirit. The word is the body for the spirit. Spirit is embodied in word.
All word: dry up.
All spirit: blow up.
Word and Spirit: grow up.
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 12:37:53 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2012, 10:33:07 PM
Why did God order/inspire to write down the Bible?
Why does the Bible warn about adding, removing or otherwise changing?
I also have a strong feeling Jesus was very well studied in both the written and oral teachings of His (OT) time.
I can accept there is a step beyond the written Bible. Even hundreds of steps beyond.
But calling the Bible some sort religous accessory? Nah, I don't think that right.
And why do we have 1 book and numerous denominations?
We don't have one book. They all differ a little. I've even seen some translations that come in 2 or 3 flavors. One of them being the JW edition.
QuoteWhy one book and so much difference in opinion? So that this small group of people could carry around the secret? Because we are special?
Compared to the world Christianity is a secret. Only 1 in 7 are Christians (on various levels). Jesus speaks about things being hidden (parables). So yes things are hidden I would say. Anyway what's the alternative? No Bibles at all. Just wait for the HS to give you a vision?
QuoteI have already made these points with you before. You know my stance about the Bible.
Which has changed a lot in a short time.
QuoteYou can't possibly understand it beyond the natural points without relationship to Christ.
Totally off-topic and I think you are fully aware of that Shawn.
QuoteWhile God can use anything including the secular to speak to us, the Bible is the Holy inspired word of God.
But gives a zillion different opnions. You try to make it sub-standard.
QuoteI just disagree on how we are to approach understanding.
I honestly think you have never understood anything I wrote on this subject.
QuoteIf we spent the hours and hours we pour over Greek, concordances, dissecting word after phrase...as do seeking his face...the church would be changed for the better.
I
think know the world would have been a much better place with proper translations. Far less denominations and at least twice as much Christians.
QuoteSeek his face first, then forget everything man has taught you about the Bible, then take a fresh look.
Why do people seek His face? Isn't it because the written Bible inspired them to do so?
Quote from: eaglesway on June 25, 2012, 03:23:28 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2012, 11:41:58 PM
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.
Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.
Paul said the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". IMO- The Holy Spirit has a lot to do with this topic.
I never said the HS has no big place in all of this. Why did Paul waste his time writing his part of the Bible? He could have his time for more fruitful things. Or did Paul see great value in the written word? Why did the HS inspire all those persons that together wrote the Bible?
QuoteThe ideal being that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth(as Jesus said)
Didn't Jesus also teach the Scriptures are of great value?
Quote.....teach us through the pitfalls of man's corruption.....put salt on it(the word) and us(the body) so that we can sort it out through fellowship and midrash. Certainly, no other spirit is behind the efforts to restore the truth of the "writings/scrolls"(biblos).
That's just the point EW. Restoring the truth isn't done by corrupted translations. Assuming
translations are inspired (I'm not so sure about that) and there are so many lying spirits could have been part of the process.
QuoteSince Peter says these words are given to no individual man's private interpretation
Thanks for making my point EW. Translating things wrong (on purpose) is private interpretation.
Quotebecause the were "breathed" by the spirit through men set apart for that purpose..... and since Jesus says the Spirit will "bring all things to remembrance", I think the Spirit is the only means by which the word can be made pure(core intent- becoming like God through fellowship in the Spirit of Christ).
Ok, but that still doesn't say/mean anything goes translation wise.
QuoteIMO If there is no restoration of truth or unity of the faith possible, then the word of God is full of plainly told lies(not mistranslations) about itself and is a waste of time beyond its historical, literary and philosophical value.
I think the truth is restoring itself. Church is loosing it's grip, scholarship improves, and new (actually ancient) ways of looking at Scripture are gaining momentum.
EW remember that a few months back I wrote AND NOT OR?
That's what I'm trying to explain.
Quote from: wwI think know the world would have been a much better place with proper translations. Far less denominations and at least twice as much Christians.
Isn't it possible that this is the way God wants it?
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." John 12:40
He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. Mat 13:11
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 09:32:47 AM
Quote from: wwI think know the world would have been a much better place with proper translations. Far less denominations and at least twice as much Christians.
Isn't it possible that this is the way God wants it?
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." John 12:40
He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. Mat 13:11
I can't of course in no way prove that's how He (not) likes it to be. The verse you quoted and similar verses seem to say so.
But even then it's odd. First God is blinding the OT Jews. He sends Jesus who starts teaching with the aid of the HS. During His ministry the blinding seems to stay in full effect.
Jesus leaves and sends another Comforter. And at the same time God continues His blinding, hardening and binding to disobedience.
So on one hand we have Jesus teaching how perfect the Bible is and behind the scenes (most of) humanity is told it's all nonsense, because that's what blinding basicly means.
Anyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewed from that angle nothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.
:dunno:
Quote from: wwI think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra
The scriptures about the HS leading us into all truth have to do predominantly with the Bible because the truth contained in the Bible is the first thing God wants us to know. Everything else [how we live our lives, what we see in the world around us, etc] falls out from that.
1 Thessalonians 2:13: "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,
which effectually worketh also in you that believe.Didn't the HS write the Bible?
2 Timothy 3:16:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God.."given by inspiration of God"G2315
θεόπνευστος
theopneustos
theh-op'-nyoo-stos
From G2316 and a presumed derivative of G4154;
divinely breathed in: - given by inspiration of God.
I'd like to say yes, God wants certain people blinded. But He also wants certain people to see. All for an overall, ultimate good [perfect] purpose. We've had many bad translations. Through it all, the thread of truth has remained. IMO, it's getting clearer. I believe God is showing more in recent years - building to something? Is it possible He may be wanting more people to see, and for those that do, to see more clearly?
To me, saying translations, word meanings, etc., don't matter, doesn't make sense. Of course we need the Holy Spirit to enlighten us - in whatever we do. I don't know that I've ever really seen anyone on this forum dispute that. But this analogy comes to mind. I can stand in the middle of traffic and say I'm trusting the Holy Spirit to deliver me. Or, I can take the Holy Spirit's leading, and get my rear end out of the middle of the road. Same thing. I can read a JW version, or a version from the 1600's that said "thou shalt commit adultery", and teach others it doesn't matter as well - and have a more blinded view of things. Or I can use what the Spirit is giving us now and seek and learn - along with praying for guidance/revelation, being open to His leading - and hopefully be led into things that are His will for me to see.
To whom much is given, much is required.
Keep the baby.
Quote from: wwAnyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewesd from that angle bothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.
No it doesn't mean everyone is right. In any given disagreement, only one is right or both are wrong.
We work very hard at trying to get it right, even if only partially right. But we are given the hope that eventually we will get it all right if God allows.
And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding. Heb 6:3
I really think (besides your statement of "there's no bad translation, Molly" - are you sure you don't want to re-think that? :laugh:) Tony and Molly are actually very much on the same page. I believe there's much agreement there. I may be mistaken, as apparently some others took it a bit differently - but I also thought Eaglesway's post was basically saying the same thing - the scriptures are important, understanding them/seeing them clearly is important - just that the Spirit's revealing of them [quickening] is vital. With perhaps some exception, I really think (given some minor variance) several folks are actually saying the same things... :2c:
lol. I say that from experience [no bad translation] because it was the JW's trying to force me to believe that John1:1 KJV version was mistranslated and really said 'the word was a god' [no caps] that drove me into my first study of the Greek language.
So how can that be a bad thing?
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: wwI think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra
The scriptures about the HS leading us into all truth have to do predominantly with the Bible because the truth contained in the Bible is the first thing God wants us to know.
Doesn't that mean God wants us to read what He (trough the HS) inspired. And not the twist "the church" gave to the true Bible?
I'm not even sure the HS will really add things that are not in the Bible. Unlocking and/or showing greater depth aren't adding things. It's more like cleaning that glass darkly a bit more.
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:08:00 AM
Quote from: wwAnyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewesd from that angle bothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.
No it doesn't mean everyone is right. In any given disagreement, only one is right or both are wrong.
Besides intelectual capacity etc, having a wrong translation is at least part of those mistakes.
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:18:15 AM
lol. I say that from experience [no bad translation] because it was the JW's trying to force me to believe that John1:1 KJV version was mistranslated and really said 'the word was a god' [no caps] that drove me into my first study of the Greek language.
So how can that be a bad thing?
I see that more as God working all things together for good, or even "what satan intended for evil, God intended for good" - rather than, the JW translation (just for instance - I believe there's many more) is a good translation/not a bad one.
I certainly don't know it all, don't claim to. But I strongly believe it's important to be as accurate as we can and as God gives it to be. Not that we don't see through a glass darkly, or often misunderstand, or need revelations, etc....but it just looks like to me that He's clearing some things up for us. Maybe it has to do with the coming harvest, I don't know. Or, on the other hand, when every eye sees Him in His full glory, I think that will clear things up pretty quickly, too! :dsunny:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2012, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: wwI think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra
The scriptures about the HS leading us into all truth have to do predominantly with the Bible because the truth contained in the Bible is the first thing God wants us to know.
Doesn't that mean God wants us to read what He (trough the HS) inspired. And not the twist "the church" gave to the true Bible?
I'm not even sure the HS will really add things that are not in the Bible. Unlocking and/or showing greater depth aren't adding things. It's more like cleaning that glass darkly a bit more.
The church as it exists today is an incubator for babies, and a way for more mature Christians to communicate with each other. Thanks to youtube and internet, radio and tv, we can attend hundreds of different churches simultaneously these days and pick out what feeds us.
It's all about feeding his sheep. Lots of food around--everywhere.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2012, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:00:24 AM
Doesn't that mean God wants us to read what He (trough the HS) inspired. And not the twist "the church" gave to the true Bible?
I'm not even sure the HS will really add things that are not in the Bible. Unlocking and/or showing greater depth aren't adding things. It's more like cleaning that glass darkly a bit more.
In my humble opinion, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :trampoline:
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:27:50 AM
Thanks to youtube and internet, radio and tv, we can attend hundreds of different churches simultaneously these days and pick out what feeds us.
It's all about feeding his sheep. Lots of food around--everywhere.
I agree. However, I also don't know that there's ever been a time when there's so much 'garbage' so readily available to be consumed and spread around like manure. Sometimes I personally find it very disheartening to see things that are being taught. There are a LOT of whispering voices of deceit - many
within the "church".
That's why we're to test all things, search, seek, and yes, above all, be in close relationship with the Lord, loving Him, living in Him, being open to and seeking His leading.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2012, 10:24:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:08:00 AM
Quote from: wwAnyway following that reasoning everyone is right in every situation.
Some say the HS only approach is being blinded.
Others say the opposite. While other are somewher in between. Viewesd from that angle bothing can be discussed. It even makes this forum a waste of time because qouting verses potentially is just proving how blinded 'you' are.
No it doesn't mean everyone is right. In any given disagreement, only one is right or both are wrong.
Besides intelectual capacity etc, having a wrong translation is at least part of those mistakes.
Sure. But if God wants me to know it, he will eventually give it to me. I can read 10 or 20 different translations online today including the original, and I often do, but, it's up to him whether I understand any of it.
I still remember the day I could first read Paul without my eyes rolling back in my head.
It was like a miracle. rofl
Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2012, 10:33:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:27:50 AM
Thanks to youtube and internet, radio and tv, we can attend hundreds of different churches simultaneously these days and pick out what feeds us.
It's all about feeding his sheep. Lots of food around--everywhere.
I agree. However, I also don't know that there's ever been a time when there's so much 'garbage' so readily available to be consumed and spread around like manure. Sometimes I personally find it very disheartening to see things that are being taught. There are a LOT of whispering voices of deceit - many within the "church".
That's why we're to test all things, search, seek, and yes, above all, be in close relationship with the Lord, loving Him, living in Him, being open to and seeking His leading.
Lots of garbage, too, yes. That's where the HS comes in.
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:35:14 AM
Lots of garbage, too, yes. That's where the HS comes in.
Yes. It also brings up the point though, that sometimes folks claiming to be full of/led by the Holy Spirit, either discount the scriptures in many ways, or twist them to their own imagination and/or personal gain. (I know you don't disagree with this) but that's one reason I believe it's important to have the written Word (as accurately translated as we can get it) as a standard by which to check things and go by -
all the while, looking to the Holy Spirit to bring the truth/understanding/reality of it to us. As has been said many times - they work together.
Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:35:14 AM
Lots of garbage, too, yes. That's where the HS comes in.
Yes. It also brings up the point though, that sometimes folks claiming to be full of/led by the Holy Spirit, either discount the scriptures in many ways, or twist them to their own imagination and/or personal gain. (I know you don't disagree with this) but that's one reason I believe it's important to have the written Word (as accurately translated as we can get it) as a standard by which to check things and go by - all the while, looking to the Holy Spirit to bring the truth/understanding/reality of it to us. As has been said many times - they work together.
well, you say 'accurately translated' and I agree with that goal but in some cases this is not as easy as it looks. Certainly in the case of the word 'Hell' or 'forever' you can point at something definitive and say this was not accurately translated, but beyond simple word definitions you are getting into an area that can be easily disputed as to which translation is better. There are people here who love certain translations that I cannot even read.
Bottom line:
God works with each one of us personally.
HS guides us into all truth.
But getting from point A to point B is different for different people. Jesus, who is the author and perfector of our faith, will get us there because that is his job. lol
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:48:30 AMwell, you say 'accurately translated' and I agree with that goal but in some cases this is not as easy as it looks. Certainly in the case of the word 'Hell' or 'forever' you can point at something definitive and say this was not accurately translated, but beyond simple word definitions you are getting into an area that can be easily disputed as to which translation is better.
Sure translations have their limits. I think that's one point we agree on because both of us quote very often from concordances to show alternative word meanings.
It's for that reason I wrote many times (not on this thread) that it's impossible to translate between languages and retaining all depth. Add to the fact that everything needs to be understood with a 2000 year old Jewish mindset. Even harder to translate. That's why I'm so fond on "my" idiom and LoF threads and all sort of, lets call it, cultural threads (like real life wedding feasts). I know some/many will see that as an attempt to promote Judadism. That's not what I'm trying to do. Likely my views don't fit in a single denomination but if I must pick one it likely would be a Messanic one.
To summarize my points:
- Perfect translations will never exist; but I see room for improvement.
- Cultural understanding/setting is very important.
- I'm in now way trying to minimize/ridicule the part HS had, has, and will have in all of this.
- Anchor points (Scripture) are needed because satan is an expert in playing tricks on the mind.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2012, 12:47:56 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:48:30 AMwell, you say 'accurately translated' and I agree with that goal but in some cases this is not as easy as it looks. Certainly in the case of the word 'Hell' or 'forever' you can point at something definitive and say this was not accurately translated, but beyond simple word definitions you are getting into an area that can be easily disputed as to which translation is better.
Sure translations have their limits. I think that's one point we agree on because both of us quote very often from concordances to show alternative word meanings.
It's for that reason I wrote many times (not on this thread) that it's impossible to translate between languages and retaining all depth. Add to the fact that everything needs to be understood with a 2000 year old Jewish mindset. Even harder to translate. That's why I'm so fond on "my" idiom and LoF threads and all sort of, lets call it, cultural threads (like real life wedding feasts). I know some/many will see that as an attempt to promote Judadism. That's not what I'm trying to do. Likely my views don't fit in a single denomination but if I must pick one it likely would be a Messanic one.
To summarize my points:
- Perfect translations will never exist; but I see room for improvement.
- Cultural understanding/setting is very important.
- I'm in now way trying to minimize/ridicule the part HS had, has, and will have in all of this.
- Anchor points (Scripture) are needed because satan is an expert in playing tricks on the mind.
:thumbsup:
I love the idioms and cultural understandings that you've posted too, I find them very enlightening. :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 25, 2012, 09:21:45 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 25, 2012, 03:23:28 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 24, 2012, 11:41:58 PM
I think the HS guiding has nothing to do with this topic. The HS is an extra. Ok a very huge extra.
But that doesn't say anything about the Bible itself. Neither did Jesus in any way was trying to minimize the OT. In fact He was teaching directly from it. Ok He was inpired. True. But there was nothing in Jesus teachings that claimed the Bible wasn't of great importance. He even said He came to explain the OT. Meaning that according to Jesus the OT was the real deal. Yes, millions, at that time misunderstood things. True. But still that doesn't mean that for that reason the OT should be viewed as a book that leads to error.
In NT times billions have been in error. Several reasons for that. But on eof them is most certainly (imo) bad translations.
Many, all?, agree satan mixes a lots of truth with a tiny bit of venom that causes disaster. Jesus used bread and leaven to explain how error can infect things. Aren't the wrongly translated words the leaven/poison?
Why all that fuss about satan? No problem with that guy. Just listen to his teachings. The HS has the abillity to correct every mistake.
Everyone his/her own thoughts but imo it's not what the Bible/Jesus teaches. Neither did Jesus teach the HS is replacement for the written word.
Nope. By that I'm not saying the HS is useless, should be ignored, etc etc.
I'm just saying the written word and the HS are on the same team. They aren't replacing one another.
The HS is a great teacher of what is written down in the Bible.
The Book itself is a great tool exposing lying spirits that claim to be the HS. Meaning the person that recieved something in a vision/dream/etc can should verify with the written Bible. And for that a good translation is a big bonus.
Paul said the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit". IMO- The Holy Spirit has a lot to do with this topic.
I never said the HS has no big place in all of this. Why did Paul waste his time writing his part of the Bible? He could have his time for more fruitful things. Or did Paul see great value in the written word? Why did the HS inspire all those persons that together wrote the Bible?
QuoteThe ideal being that it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth(as Jesus said)
Didn't Jesus also teach the Scriptures are of great value?
Quote.....teach us through the pitfalls of man's corruption.....put salt on it(the word) and us(the body) so that we can sort it out through fellowship and midrash. Certainly, no other spirit is behind the efforts to restore the truth of the "writings/scrolls"(biblos).
That's just the point EW. Restoring the truth isn't done by corrupted translations. Assuming translations are inspired (I'm not so sure about that) and there are so many lying spirits could have been part of the process.
QuoteSince Peter says these words are given to no individual man's private interpretation
Thanks for making my point EW. Translating things wrong (on purpose) is private interpretation.
Quotebecause the were "breathed" by the spirit through men set apart for that purpose..... and since Jesus says the Spirit will "bring all things to remembrance", I think the Spirit is the only means by which the word can be made pure(core intent- becoming like God through fellowship in the Spirit of Christ).
Ok, but that still doesn't say/mean anything goes translation wise.
QuoteIMO If there is no restoration of truth or unity of the faith possible, then the word of God is full of plainly told lies(not mistranslations) about itself and is a waste of time beyond its historical, literary and philosophical value.
I think the truth is restoring itself. Church is loosing it's grip, scholarship improves, and new (actually ancient) ways of looking at Scripture are gaining momentum.
EW remember that a few months back I wrote AND NOT OR?
That's what I'm trying to explain.
WW in this post, I responded to a statement you made.... "I think the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with this topic".
Really, a very simple statement at that point in the thread :o)
As to all the areas in which we agree. Excellent.
I was not addressing anyone's (yours or mine or anyone elses) entire belief system on a point by point basis. You made a simple statement. I gave a direct response in a spirit of conversation. We have made each others points well, if that is of any value.
The Holy Spirit and the written word are INTRINSICALLY RELATED and inseparable. :boydance: :Egyptdance2:
Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2012, 10:40:50 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 10:35:14 AM
Lots of garbage, too, yes. That's where the HS comes in.
Yes. It also brings up the point though, that sometimes folks claiming to be full of/led by the Holy Spirit, either discount the scriptures in many ways, or twist them to their own imagination and/or personal gain. (I know you don't disagree with this) but that's one reason I believe it's important to have the written Word (as accurately translated as we can get it) as a standard by which to check things and go by - all the while, looking to the Holy Spirit to bring the truth/understanding/reality of it to us. As has been said many times - they work together.
I would agree. Having translations that are as accurate as possible is indeed important. I just don't believe God is limited by our translations. I don't believe God throws his hands up and says...welp they are reading the NIV...I can't work with that. It boils down to me trusting God more than my ability to choose the correct translation. I just have learned to trust him more than I trust me. I have studied my way into all sorts of beliefs. I have let pastors lead me into paths of confusion. Today, I have one source of peace and that is understanding that God gives me for today. I know it's different now, and I can't quite put words to why. What I know is that I don't have perfect understanding. What I also know is that I don't need perfect understanding to seek his face, and to trust Christ as the perfecter of my faith. I know what God has revealed to me about himself. And against that I compare all information. That sorts through truth from fiction.
Shawn said......... "I would agree. Having translations that are as accurate as possible is indeed important. I just don't believe God is limited by our translations. I don't believe God throws his hands up and says...welp they are reading the NIV...I can't work with that. "
Ohhhhhhh No! hahahahahah LOLOLOL hehheh.... man thats so funny cuz it is so true :mlaugh:
I'm not sure I can say this without without sounding argumentative. There's much agreement, so please see this as digging a little more, even myself having a question or two about the following that I'm not certain about.
The Spirit leads us into all truth. Yes, the scriptures say that, so I must believe it. However, it's puzzling, because I don't believe any of us as individuals have all truth. And certainly, does it appear humanity as a whole has all truth? Maybe so, if it could all be sifted through, the best kept, and synthesized to make one belief system. But right now, it appears so scattered - so many views, so much blindness.
So let's ponder that maybe up until now, God has led us into all the truth He wants us to have - up to this point. Let's also consider He may be opening up new information/clarity every day for us now, beginning to open doors of Godly knowledge that is progressive - perhaps leading up to a next phase of His Plan - the harvest perhaps. Still, all "testable" by His written Word (I'm not talking about wild imaginations).
Given all that, if people are encouraged, and we're individually satisfied to, just keep reading whatever translations are popularly available - either older versions with all their "hells and forevers" - or newer/distorted versions with their "mushy gospel" generalizations/feel-good doctrines - how responsibly are we "handling the word of truth"? (2 Tim. 2:15). What I mean by this is, if God is opening new doors of understanding, cleaning off the dark glass just a little more for us, offering more clarity; not "just" through the leading of His Spirit relationally (WHICH IS VITAL!), but also by giving us new information, people who study out that information AS LED BY THE SPIRIT and share it with us - shouldn't we embrace that? I'd suggest it's played a role in many of us having had our veil lifted just a little bit and come into the understanding of UR, etc. - some of those "aha" moments, where someone said "gehenna means X, not Y", and the Holy Spirit quickened that to us and shocked us in a good way :).
Related question; through the past 1500 years of Christendom, how many understood Ultimate Reconciliation? Flip side; how many believed that the Bible, God, His Spirit, all supported Eternal Torment - because that's what their available translation of the scriptures taught!? Flip to today; what percentage of Christendom still believes in ET, in large part because that's still what their "sanctioned/beloved" particular translation teaches (and by extension, their pastor, their fellow church members, their personal "world" around them)? Don't we believe people are negatively affected by error?
Would we say none of those people were or are led by the Spirit? Or couldn't we conclude that maybe the Holy Spirit is leading us into truth, by giving us some new tools and information to use, as His Plan unfolds? Not either/or (study or Spirit), but BOTH - as He leads. Disclaimer; I believe it's possible He may lead one to be a "scholar" and dig out these things and share them with us for our own growth and understanding, while He leads another to sit quietly before Him, gazing at His face - or some to do both, as He leads! In that regard, maybe that's where not judging each others' motives, or not attempting to fit everyone else into our particular mold comes into play (God help me).
"Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval." Romans 14:4
Blessings.
AND A HEARTY AMEN TO THAT SIR JAB!!! :thumbsup:
Jabcat,
I think you were just nailing it with that post. I think you answered all your own questions right there. I doubt we disagree on any of it. I do believe it's important to have translations that are as accurate as possible. I do believe some are built for more scholarly activities within the faith, and I believe that can be very helpful...especially amongst the babes in Christ. Many of those have not acquired the ability to discern spiritually but can discern naturally. That is where I was when I was led to book by Martin Zender. I believe God used the studies of Zender to lead me here.
So, if I have ever given the impression I don't believe study, translations or any of the like is important then I gave the wrong impression. I will say though that I have become disenchanted with the thought that I can ever reason out God through proper study of His word without relationship being first. For me, it's all about the priority and the focus. My focus today is relationship, prayer, meditation, taking health to the sick, loving my neighbor, gratitude, practicing faith etc. If I keep my eyes on discovering the truth about God's nature in these things FIRST, then my studies of the Bible are fruitful. If I neglect the former for the later, and think I can find God through study...then like times past I will be greatly disappointed.
So today, I think we should ask ourselves this question. Where is my faith? Is my faith in the translation? In my proper dissection of the Bible? Or is my faith in Christ to perfect me? In that we find much liberty to grow and move within the faith, and not become distracted with earning our way to understanding.
So, it's not that I disagree on translational accuracy being important. I question the motive. I question the heart behind the furvor. Are we walking by faith or self reliance? Do we truly believe Christ is the perfecter of our faith? Or do we still hang onto the belief that we need to get it right, have our ducks in a row, and earn a bit of this understanding by being zealous in our studies? In that we will see the difference between faith and pride. That is the understanding the Lord has given me today.
:thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Still some things to ponder, but maybe it's a little clearer.
If anyone has any further thoughts on the Spirit leading us into all truth? I'm wondering if that may include an ongoing process, including various things (including Spirit-led study, for instance) - not just that we always "somehow know" (even though that often happens with His guidance)...
Kind'a like the idea though that God can and does miraculously heal and "out of the blue" bless us, but sometimes, He leads us to the right doctor or sends the right person across our path at just the right time, etc...
I'm thinking maybe His giving clearer insight into more what the earliest manuscripts say, is part of the Spirit "leading us into all truth"...?
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 09:57:20 PM
Jabcat,
I think you were just nailing it with that post. I think you answered all your own questions right there. I doubt we disagree on any of it. I do believe it's important to have translations that are as accurate as possible. I do believe some are built for more scholarly activities within the faith, and I believe that can be very helpful...especially amongst the babes in Christ. Many of those have not acquired the ability to discern spiritually but can discern naturally. That is where I was when I was led to book by Martin Zender. I believe God used the studies of Zender to lead me here.
So, if I have ever given the impression I don't believe study, translations or any of the like is important then I gave the wrong impression. I will say though that I have become disenchanted with the thought that I can ever reason out God through proper study of His word without relationship being first. For me, it's all about the priority and the focus. My focus today is relationship, prayer, meditation, taking health to the sick, loving my neighbor, gratitude, practicing faith etc. If I keep my eyes on discovering the truth about God's nature in these things FIRST, then my studies of the Bible are fruitful. If I neglect the former for the later, and think I can find God through study...then like times past I will be greatly disappointed.
So today, I think we should ask ourselves this question. Where is my faith? Is my faith in the translation? In my proper dissection of the Bible? Or is my faith in Christ to perfect me? In that we find much liberty to grow and move within the faith, and not become distracted with earning our way to understanding.
So, it's not that I disagree on translational accuracy being important. I question the motive. I question the heart behind the furvor. Are we walking by faith or self reliance? Do we truly believe Christ is the perfecter of our faith? Or do we still hang onto the belief that we need to get it right, have our ducks in a row, and earn a bit of this understanding by being zealous in our studies? In that we will see the difference between faith and pride. That is the understanding the Lord has given me today.
I hear you. But, you are still saying [or maybe you're not, correct me if you're not] that what works for you is going to work for me.
I'm a different person with different needs, talents, desires, abilities. God recognizes that. So, he will design a plan to bring me into the truth that is different than the one he designs for you.
I read and like the KJV the best. I understand their mistranslation problems on Hell now, because I am here. But, I'm not here because I ever had any problem with Hell, or any thought about UR. I'm here because some stranger invited me here through pm from another board [I never found out who it was, maybe it was an angel]. And, I'm still here because I'm always learning things here that I find satisfying and enjoyable. But I could care less about Hell because I knew Jesus before I came here and there was never any thought in my mind that he would ever be anything other than just, merciful, kind, and loving. So, what I've learned here about that is just icing on the cake. I didn't come here or stay here for that reason. Nor would I have come here for that reason.
But, the point is, he brings us all to where he wants us, by treating us as individuals. We are free in him to become more of what we already are because he made us what we are in the first place.
Obviously translation issues are important to me because I spend a lot of time looking at Greek and Hebrew. But that is something I was led to do by HS, and it works for me. It is not something that will work for everyone.
Nope not at all Molly. I'm saying we all need to look at our motives. We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.
Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2012, 10:40:18 PM
I'm thinking maybe His giving clearer insight into more what the earliest manuscripts say, is part of the Spirit "leading us into all truth"...?
Yes, I do believe that to be part of the equation.
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 11:07:15 PM
Nope not at all Molly. I'm saying we all need to look at our motives. We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.
But, see, you are talking to yourself here. You have this motive thing, this pride thing.
I don't have that problem. It is not an issue for me. So don't project it onto me.
What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.
He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.
In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.
I have my own problems lol.
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 11:16:12 PM
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 11:07:15 PM
Nope not at all Molly. I'm saying we all need to look at our motives. We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.
But, see, you are talking to yourself here. You have this motive thing, this pride thing.
I don't have that problem. It is not an issue for me. So don't project it onto me.
What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.
He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.
In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.
I have my own problems lol.
I don't believe I was ever speaking to you directly. And don't we all share our individual experiences with Christ to others? I'm sure some people battle with the things I battle with, and others do not. Why are you threatened by my experiences and opinions?
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 11:48:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 11:16:12 PM
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 11:07:15 PM
Nope not at all Molly. I'm saying we all need to look at our motives. We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.
But, see, you are talking to yourself here. You have this motive thing, this pride thing.
I don't have that problem. It is not an issue for me. So don't project it onto me.
What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.
He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.
In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.
I have my own problems lol.
I don't believe I was ever speaking to you directly. And don't we all share our individual experiences with Christ to others? I'm sure some people battle with the things I battle with, and others do not. Why are you threatened by my experiences and opinions?
You are talking to me directly because you are saying, 'we all need to....we need to...'
So that would include me. I don't feel threatened by your experience. I respect your experience. I find it interesting. I enjoy what you have to say. It is very different from mine, though. I don't 'need to..'
It would be like me saying, we all need to learn Greek and Hebrew. I could say it, but obviously, we don't.
Jab I agree with your progressive revelation post. God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all. We know what we know when we know it because He has it that way. I see all of creation and this exercise in futility a grand story, that is meant to teach us to not crave evil things, so that when we are elohim and are ruling greater things than a bank account, a mortgage, and 2 car payments, we will be wise stewards, and just rulers.
I believe that people have the religion they have because God wants it that way. Or at least He works with mans perversion for the telling of the grand story. So when we see ET, and all the other "wrong" doctrines, its part of the learning process for us as a race of future rulers to learn that we don't want that way. That its not good. I use this example a lot, but :bdh:
God ordered Moses to fashion the cherubim on the ark, even when He said don't make any graven images of anything. Then the Israelites fall into worshipping the cherubim. God knowing the end from the beginning knew they would worship them, really anyone with an outside perspective would probably expect them to worship the gold images, seeing that they just came out of Egypt, the land of idols.
Anyway, He left the choice there between false religion, and the true worship, in Spirit. The outcome of false worship was death. These things happened for our examples. Then idol worship came back in the same time as the doctrine of ET. The cycle was repeating itself. Almost like it had to happen that way. The similarities between the different phases of the church are pretty remarkable.
Tabernacle in wilderness/ Early pure church going from house to house
Solomons temple filled with idolatry/ Institutional Church RCC idolatry
Post exile reformation from idolatry-->pharisees, Post dark ages reformation from RCC/idolatry--> pharisees
Good post, thanks. :nod:
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 11:58:40 PM
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 11:48:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 25, 2012, 11:16:12 PM
Quote from: shawn on June 25, 2012, 11:07:15 PM
Nope not at all Molly. I'm saying we all need to look at our motives. We need to be aware of pride which hinders and binds understanding and growth.
But, see, you are talking to yourself here. You have this motive thing, this pride thing.
I don't have that problem. It is not an issue for me. So don't project it onto me.
What I'm saying is--don't tell me what to do because of something that is your problem.
He treats us all as individuals, and if that is something you have a problem with, he will deal with you over it.
In other words, I'm happy to listen to your story, but don't accuse me of having the same problem.
I have my own problems lol.
I don't believe I was ever speaking to you directly. And don't we all share our individual experiences with Christ to others? I'm sure some people battle with the things I battle with, and others do not. Why are you threatened by my experiences and opinions?
You are talking to me directly because you are saying, 'we all need to....we need to...'
So that would include me. I don't feel threatened by your experience. I respect your experience. I find it interesting. I enjoy what you have to say. It is very different from mine, though. I don't 'need to..'
It would be like me saying, we all need to learn Greek and Hebrew. I could say it, but obviously, we don't.
If you don't believe you ever deal with pride issues, and your motives for things of faith are always pure...and you have never tried to earn understanding...then no my statements don't apply to you. With that said, the Bible doesn't tell us to learn Greek and Hebrew...it does tell us to examine ourselves.
If we look at a learning curve of time versus knowledge, I have forever on the X axis. Why would I get prideful when I have so much time ahead of me that the corresponding knowledge must be near infinite? I've only taken the first few steps.
I realize I do throw opinions around like popcorn at a movie theatre but that is because I find opinions useful for integration, understanding, and debate.
Quote from: Molly on June 26, 2012, 06:24:04 AM
If we look at a learning curve of time versus knowledge, I have forever on the X axis. Why would I get prideful when I have so much time ahead of me that the corresponding knowledge must be near infinite? I've only taken the first few steps.
I realize I do throw opinions around like popcorn at a movie theatre but that is because I find opinions useful for integration, understanding, and debate.
Sounds like a good attitude to have...wish I had the pride thing licked.
Quote from: jabcat on June 25, 2012, 10:40:18 PM
I'm thinking maybe His giving clearer insight into more what the earliest manuscripts say, is part of the Spirit "leading us into all truth"...?
Restoration, Renewal, Revelation
Even in the poorer translations, KJV for example- the math for "ultimate universal reconciliation/salvation of all" is there. I did not start pressing into translation issues until after I had already clearly defined the salvation of all in the cumulative revelation of Eph 1:9-11; Col.1 16-21; 1 Cor 15; Romans 11;Romans 8; Rev.5:13; Phil 2:10,11; John 2; etc, etc, etc
I think it so awesome that we hav the means to flush these things out ourselves because of the internet, which has become to the gospel today sort of what Greek and Latin were to the gospel in the early church- a nearly worldwide platform for the dissemination of the truth.
In every age, even in the first hundred years (this is clear from all the epistles & John's revelation) believers hav had to seek, press, and dig to stay in and grow in the truth. There hav always been deceivers, "false epistles as if from us", false apostles, false doctrines, etc, etc..... this will not change to the age.
Another element (already touched on here under the reference to God partially blinding some for a season) is the operation of the cherub and cheruba in guarding the way to the tree of life lest some attain to it without appropriate preparation so it becomes a curse. It's for everybody's benefit you don't get the keys to the car until you're of age and qualify. The growing up of the Words of Life in us is a Tree of Life. The flaming sWords turning every direction create pain and distraction, the flame illuminating with dissimulating light. The animal natures, the faces of the Cherubim, are carnal identities that relate to more or less pressure to be provided to our being in the world in order to keep us --what Paul refers to as knowing "there is no good thing in me; that is, my flesh,"-- keeping that out of deathlessness.
I have to take into account God saying He purposely hides things, that, "It is the glory if God to hide a thing, and the glory of kings search them out." In over 40 years, in various circumstances I have made known many of the features of the Concordant Literal Translation and only once did someone pursue and buy a copy. I had made one for the Bookstore I ran to be in a ring binder and gave it to him at cost. Most of the people I've talked to about the version say they believe in Scripture over other aspects of working out our relationships with God and each other (which of themselves are more important but) because without it we would be adrift in a sea of subjective-ism. So how come they have no interest? No other translation even begins to come close to revealing the features of the original texts as CLT does! I can only suppose there is some spiritual power preventing them from entering in, a power of darkness that holds them bound so they don't seek out the book of the LORD and live. We're not talking about just reading something like other books. Sometimes I prime myself and read a science-fiction novel to get flowing in reading. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Reading books, like a good commentary to study Scripture while we read the Word, is commendable. But, whether we find it distasteful and just not fun, or a spirit of sloth or ennui, even something unidentified: there are powers that prevent people from taking the Word into themselves.
Most of us don't yet know the Bible enough to know what we're trusting is hearsay or Scripture. Doubly bad, we don't know that we don't know this. As we continue on we should increase in or knowledge of the Word and we'll find our reliance on it to not be misplace. Much of the idea there's some kind of warfare between the letter of the word and the spirit of the word is due to lack of experience.
Quote from: reFORMer on June 28, 2012, 07:52:43 AM
I have to take into account God saying He purposely hides things, that, "It is the glory if God to hide a thing, and the glory of kings search them out." In over 40 years, in various circumstances I have made known many of the features of the Concordant Literal Translation and only once did someone pursue and buy a copy. I had made one for the Bookstore I ran to be in a ring binder and gave it to him at cost. Most of the people I've talked to about the version say they believe in Scripture over other aspects of working out our relationships with God and each other (which of themselves are more important but) because without it we would be adrift in a sea of subjective-ism. So how come they have no interest? No other translation even becomes to come close to revealing the features of the original texts as CLT does! I can only suppose there is some spiritual power preventing them from entering in, a power of darkness that holds them bound so they don't seek out the book of the LORD and live.
"Buy product X. 5 million people can't be wrong. Buy product X!"
Most people fear the unknown. Safety in numbers. Most are followers, few are leaders. If Oprah Winfrey would promote the CLV the next day your bookstore will be full of CLV buyers. Perhaps it's part of the blinding? Perhaps. Perhaps the whole human nature is part of the blinding. Fashion is a perfect example of that. This year brown purses are fashion. Everybody knows for sure brown is really fantastic. Next year black is hot and only idiots like brown. I mean nobody with a sane mind can like brown purses. What changed the preference of millions of people almost overnight?
I actually meant to post this here, but as I usually am pressed for time when blogging, I got two threads mixed up in my head and posted it in "what bible is good to use".
I may get slammed for this opinion, but I will give it anyway. I do believe the Concordant is an excellent scholarly work with much to recommend as an additional viewpoint and resource, but I do not believe it is a superior translation. There may be some other, more natural reasons it is not catching on.
Here are some examples why.
Look at the first chapter of Ephesians in the CLV. Why use the word "laud" instead of "praise". "Laud" is an 18th century word. It is no more accurate a rendering of the greek than a contemporary synonym for it, such as "praise".
The CLV is not rendering the original thoughts into readable language as well as some other translations and IMO it also injects theology into some of its renderings as many of them do.
For instance, rendering "katabole" as "disruption", may be a theological reflection. In the 11 times the word occurs in the NT there is only one instance where it is not coupled with "of the world"(as in "foundation of the world"), this one time is in Hebrews 11:11, speaking of Sarah and the miracle in which she "conceived seed"(kjv). Did she really "disrupt seed?"(see Heb. 11:11 CLV). If katabole must mean disruption, why is it used in relationship to the conception of Isaac in the womb of Sarah? I understand that such bias is inevitable, but I do not believe the CLV is any less in need of comparative analysis than the NASB or the KJV.
Another example....
In Eph 1 verse 10, translating "pleroma" into "complement" for "complement of eras" as opposed to "fulness" or "completion" of eras kind of baffles me. The other usages of the word "pleroma"(17, NT) all indicate fulness, filling, or perhaps secondarily, completion. The choice of wording, "complement" is unfortunate and confuses the original thought- IMO of course. Again in verse 23, I think the use of the word "complement" for "pleroma", is confusing, and actually inappropriate (being an errant translation) within the context of the original speakers thoughts.
which is His body, the complement(pleroma) of the One completing the all in all."
(Eph 1:23)CLV
which is His body, the fullness(pleroma) of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:23)NASB
I think fulness is clearly a better translation, since it "conveys the meaning in the mind of the speaker" to "the mind of the contemporay reader". IMO this is the goal of all translation.
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full(pleroma) of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
(Mar 8:20)KJV
And when I break the seven cakes of bread for the four thousand, how many hampers filled(pleroma) with fragments do you pick up?And they are saying to Him, "Seven."
(Mar 8:20)CLV
In Mark 8:20 "pleroma" is "filled" in the CLV. Why change it to "complement" in Ephesians 1:10 & 23?
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
(Rom 13:10)KJV
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Rom 13:10)NASB
the love to the neighbour doth work no ill; the love, therefore, is the fulness of law.
(Rom 13:10)YLT
Love is not working evil to an associate. The complement, then, of law, is love."
(Rom 13:10)CLV
Which of these is the least effective translation? Clearly to me it is the CLV, which seems to use "associate" and "complement" for some reason like, 'just to be different".
Yet the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'
(Mat 22:39)
In contemporary English an associate is somebody you choose to be associated with. A neighbor is not someone you choose, they are surrounding you and they may be welcome as such or not, but we are to treat them as we would like to be treated.
For me, using "associate" accomplishes no informative purpose....is no more accurate a translation.... and unecessarily sacrifices BOTH literacy and literalness, making the reading unwieldy and strange. Nothing wrong with strangeness if it has a correct purpose. To me it smacks of scholarly self indulgence, and I don't mean that unkindly, I just mean it looks to me like this translation has not been subjected to enough objective criticism.
On the other hand, I love that they used the greek word "ecclesia"(vs 22) instead of translating it to church. I wish many other words were dealt with in this way- words like ecclessia that hav no proper english equivalent, are better just left and defined in context and liner notes.
IMO.... because it is more difficult to read, and sometimes unnecessarily so, I think there are some reasons besides spiritual darkness why the CLV will hav difficulty catching on. Literacy need not be totally sacrificed for literalness, and it should never be unnecessarily sacrificed. In my opinion the CLV has need of improvement on that level, if it is to become a "communicator" rather than an eclectic selection by scholars.
Because of mistranslations or lack of knowledge, some have assumed that the Bible has contradictions. For example, at Matthew 20:29, it says that Jesus was "going out of Jericho", whereas Luke records Jesus as "getting near to Jericho".(Luke 18:35) A contradiction ? No. Why ?
Many are unaware that during Jesus time, there were two Jerichos. On this, Joseph P. Free writes: "Archaeology, however, has thrown additional light on this apparent discrepancy. Early in the twentieth century A.D., excavations were made at Jericho by Ernest Sellin of the German Oriental Society (1907-1909). The excavations showed that the Jericho of Jesus' time was a double city . . . The old Jewish city was about a mile away from the Roman city. In the light of this evidence, it is possible that Matthew is speaking of the Jewish city which Christ had left, whereas Luke is speaking of the Roman, at which Christ had not yet arrived. Thus, on His way from the old to the new city, Christ met and healed the blind Bartimaeus."-Archaeology and Bible History, 1964, p. 295.
Many have taken the stand that the Bible is not the word of God or contradictory. James Barr (1924 -2006) once Oxford Hebrew professor, said that "the proper term for the Bible would be Word of Israel, Word of some leading early Christians." (The Bible in the Modern World ) There is, however, sound evidence that the Bible is God's word. What are some examples of the Bible's accuracy, that we can trust this "book" ?
Anatomy: The Bible accurately says that 'all the parts' of a human embryo are "in writing." (Psalm 139:13-16; New World Translation) The brain, the heart, the lungs, the eyes - these and all the other body parts are 'written down' in the genetic code of the fertilized egg in the mother's womb. Contained in this code are internal timetables for the appearance of each of these parts in proper order. This fact about the development of the human body was recorded in the Bible almost 3,000 years before James Watson and Francis Crick discovered the genetic DNA code in 1953. How was it possible for the Bible, to have pointed toward a genetic code long before it's discovery in the twentieth century ? Because it was inspired of God, who is called "the source of life" at Psalms 36:9.
Because the King James Bible reads: "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them", at Psalms 139:16, this causes a failure to grasp the vivid meaning of what David wrote.
The New World Translation accurately reads of Psalms 139:16: "Your eyes saw even the embryo of me ("embryo of me", Hebrew golem, meaning "an unformed mass, i.e. as the embryo", Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, H1564), and in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed and there was not yet one among them."
Astronomy: Some 2,700 years ago, long before people in general knew that the earth is round, the prophet Isaiah wrote: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22; New World Translation) The Hebrew word chugh here translated "circle," may also be rendered "sphere." (A Concordance of the Hebrew and Chaldee Scriptures, by B. Davidson) Then, too, "the circle" of the earth's horizon is clearly seen from outer space and sometimes during high-altitude airplane travel.
Also, Job 26:7 says that God is "hanging the earth upon nothing." This is now well known, for astronomers now know that the earth has no visible means of support and is spherical or round like a "circle". How could the Bible present this over 1000 years even before Pythagoras asserted that the earth was round in about 500 B.C.E. though most believed it was flat ? Because the Creator, Jehovah God, revealed this to his servants and has been preserved for those who are serious about learning who the true God is, through his word, the Bible.
Good post jaareshiah :thumbsup:
WELL, THE BIBLE IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD..AND ONLY HE CAN INTERPRET IT FULLY
AND ACCURATELY. ALSO IN THE SCRIPTURES THERE IS A REFERENCE TO
' 'THE LYING PENS OF THE SCRIBES'
I REALIZED A LONG TIME AGO..THAT EVEN IF I LIVED A 1000YRS. TWICE OVER..I WOULD NOT
UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY WITHOUT HIM TEACHING ME AND TELLING ME;HOW HE MEANS
IT,HOW HE WILL FULFILL IT.HOW TO APPLY IT ETC
JESUS SAID,'YE SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES DILIGENTLY,FOR IN THEM YE THINK YE HAVE ETERNAL
LIFE,YET YE REJECT ME"