I am not sure when it happened but it did. Some where as theologians and religious people pondered to control the masses, they changed the meaning of soul (a living breathing creature, the individual person,) into an entity that was something man had. No where in the Bible can I find where man was given a soul. Yet, today in the Christian and religious world a soul has become to be understood as something that is part of man. An entity that is said by those theologians and religious leaders to be the prize that either good will win or evil will gain.
Man, in Genesis 2 verse 7 states, that the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and the Lord God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and was then a living soul. Some will argue that the dust of the ground was just a dead thing and that when the event happened the soul of that dead ground now became alive, as though the dust of the ground was just waiting dormant to come alive and be part of the man. But that is not what the writer of Genesis describes. That dust was dust of the ground and by itself was dust of the ground.
What is true is that a soul, which is the individual human being, was given feelings, 5 senses, which is the sentient (of, having or capable of feeling or perception; conscious) of man. It is this very thing that has been given the identity of man's soul, it is not, the soul is the living man.
The teaching that man is made of body-soul-spirit is a false doctrine as much a lie as the serpent's words Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For the Lord God said Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
My own endeavor.
For the word of the of God is alive and active(quick) and operating, hacking(powerful) than any two edged sword, reaching through penetrating (piercing) even to the separating and distributing(dividing asunder) of the vitality, animal sentient(soul) and the breath (spirit,) and the articulation(joints) and the fillings of the bones(marrow,) a discriminative judge(discerner) of the deliberation device(thoughts) and the understanding of the thoughts and feelings(the heart.) Heb.4:12
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 09:29:35 AM
I am not sure when it happened but it did. Some where as theologians and religious people pondered to control the masses, they changed the meaning of soul (a living breathing creature, the individual person,) into an entity that was something man had.
(Matthew 10:28 [CLV])
And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul..<snip>
That verse was written during the time of the Roman empire. Needless to say the Romans were quite good at killing bodies.
But the verse states they were not able to kill the soul.
Doesn't that imply body/individual person/breathing creature is something different than the soul?
QuoteNo where in the Bible can I find where man was given a soul.
Maybe that's just because we can't find it. I don't rule out it's in the early chapthers of Genesis but it's hidden quite well.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 09:29:35 AM
I am not sure when it happened but it did. Some where as theologians and religious people pondered to control the masses, they changed the meaning of soul (a living breathing creature, the individual person,) into an entity that was something man had.
(Matthew 10:28 [CLV])
And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul..<snip>
That verse was written during the time of the Roman empire. Needless to say the Romans were quite good at killing bodies.
But the verse states they were not able to kill the soul.
Doesn't that imply body/individual person/breathing creature is something different than the soul?
QuoteNo where in the Bible can I find where man was given a soul.
Maybe that's just because we can't find it. I don't rule out it's in the early chapthers of Genesis but it's hidden quite well.
And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to
destroy in gehenna!
I believe the key word is "destroy." And I will leave it at that.
could it be the mystical process of dust and breath that creates a soul?
Maybe the dust body can be killed, but the soul cannot be killed by evil men, Christ protects/preserves our soul, until the resurection of the dead.
But what is the threat of, 'fear him that is able to destroy the soul'
Does that mean some will lose their soul?
:cloud9: You know, this is not as hard to understand as it might seem. Soul is as the waters (waters always speak of a flow of spirit of some kind) below the firmament, the firmament is heaven (Spirit), so it's ANYTHING under heaven that has breath (spirit). Thus the scripture says, "Let everyTHING that hath breath, praise the Lord."
That's why the soul/woman is described as the lesser glory, because "she" was created to be lower than or subjected to (under the firmament) the man (firmament/Christ Spirit).
It's the "unactivated" nature of something, that the Spirit of God then quickens with life to fulfill it's purpose and display it's God-given form and nature. It's a seed, that THE Seed, His Christ Spirit, must quicken, or it's dead (without His Spirit).
If you take a seed of any kind and don't add water to it, you might think of it as dead because it does not yet appear what it may be. But if you add water and it begins to grow, once it bears fruit (or even sooner), you can say, "Oh, I see what it is, it's a _____."
This is why WE don't yet know what we will be like, but we know that when He appears, we'll be like Him.
I don't care how hard they try, not even the theologians and scholars can't destroy the patterns God has placed over and over again in His Word, because the only way they can do away with it, would be to chuck the whole thing, and then the creation Word (waters below the firmament) STILL bears witness, and by IT they are condemned, so none will have any excuse. His Word will stand forever. My :2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on December 10, 2011, 04:14:23 PM
:cloud9: You know, this is not as hard to understand as it might seem. Soul is as the waters (waters always speak of a flow of spirit of some kind) below the firmament, the firmament is heaven (Spirit), so it's ANYTHING under heaven that has breath (spirit). Thus the scripture says, "Let everyTHING that hath breath, praise the Lord."
That's why the soul/woman is described as the lesser glory, because "she" was created to be lower than or subjected to (under the firmament) the man (firmament/Christ Spirit).
It's the "unactivated" nature of something, that the Spirit of God then quickens with life to fulfill it's purpose and display it's God-given form and nature. It's a seed, that THE Seed, His Christ Spirit, must quicken, or it's dead (without His Spirit).
If you take a seed of any kind and don't add water to it, you might think of it as dead because it does not yet appear what it may be. But if you add water and it begins to grow, once it bears fruit (or even sooner), you can say, "Oh, I see what it is, it's a _____."
This is why WE don't yet know what we will be like, but we know that when He appears, we'll be like Him.
I don't care how hard they try, not even the theologians and scholars can't destroy the patterns God has placed over and over again in His Word, because the only way they can do away with it, would be to chuck the whole thing, and then the creation Word (waters below the firmament) STILL bears witness, and by IT they are condemned, so none will have any excuse. His Word will stand forever. My :2c:
What about the parable of the seed sower, that seed becomes unfruitful, any thoughts on that?
:cloud9: Yes, but I'd be opening a whole another can of worms, lol.....
Open away! (I personally would like to hear it...)
Is it relevant whether we have a soul in such a mystical sense rather than a soul being physical(or a direct result of physical processes). Even if our souls are physical(and therefore can be destroyed by physical things) and able to be destroyed by beings other than God he (God) would simply restore us to life. I believe that God even has the power and wisdom to resurrect us from complete nothingness if he needed to. To be clear I am saying if you(your soul whatever that is) were to be obliterated into nothing God would be able to restore you to life(the original you not just a copy of you) and if that seems impossible remember this is God we are talking about. If God were able to do what I just described(I believe he can) then it is pretty much irrelevant whether our soul is a physical thing or not(but still an interesting thing to discuss and ponder). I hope that was at least slightly coherent. :)
Quote from: DanielB on April 04, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
Is it relevant whether we have a soul in such a mystical sense rather than a soul being physical(or a direct result of physical processes). Even if our souls are physical(and therefore can be destroyed by physical things) and able to be destroyed by beings other than God he (God) would simply restore us to life. I believe that God even has the power and wisdom to resurrect us from complete nothingness if he needed to. To be clear I am saying if you(your soul whatever that is) were to be obliterated into nothing God would be able to restore you to life(the original you not just a copy of you) and if that seems impossible remember this is God we are talking about. If God were able to do what I just described(I believe he can) then it is pretty much irrelevant whether our soul is a physical thing or not(but still an interesting thing to discuss and ponder). I hope that was at least slightly coherent. :)
...that was awesome! Amen! :mthumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 02:44:40 PM
could it be the mystical process of dust and breath that creates a soul?
Maybe the dust body can be killed, but the soul cannot be killed by evil men, Christ protects/preserves our soul, until the resurection of the dead.
But what is the threat of, 'fear him that is able to destroy the soul'
Does that mean some will lose their soul?
hi! to me it seems to mean the potential is there.. (but i can't see it happening!) :smile:
Here is an excerpt from an essay I'm working on, which may make the issue clear for some:
What are we, anyway? God tells us in Genesis 2:7, for He was there.
From the KJV II: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul."
From the Ferrar Fenton Version (FFV): "The EVER-LIVING GOD afterwards formed Man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the life of animals; BUT MAN BECAME A LIFE-CONTAINING SOUL."
Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts: dust, breath, and soul fit together. The first thing to note is that God made man from the "dust of the ground." Whether it was dust, dirt, or red clay is not too critical here, though the Miao people of China do refer to Adam as the "Patriarch Dirt" in their lore. Also see Genesis 3:19: "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return," for a bit more on the dust connection.
OK, we have a body, called "man" because of what is about to happen, but this man/body is not yet alive, not yet a soul. God next bestowed the body with a Life Force – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach." The Hebrew word "ruach" covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath." However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.
Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results? Man then becomes a "living soul." Note that! Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul. It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong. We are souls, living souls, living persons. I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.
To reiterate thus far:
DUST + GOD'S CREATIVE WORK = A DEAD BODY
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL
Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about. But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die. What returns to God is the breath/spirit which He gave in the beginning. The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit. The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death. Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:
"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all; - and man dies the same as the cattle! Is not the whole vanity? The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends? And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-" [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 FFV]
What Solomon says, and as Fenton translated it, ties in with Genesis 2:7, where Fenton translates "the life of animals," instead of the more usual "breath of life."
What are we left with then, when we die? I posted this above:
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL
To deepen your understanding, let's just reverse the process:
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY
When you die, you stop breathing. Now as we all know, a lot of other things happen at and after death, but the Biblical view equates life with having breath, so I'm going to stick with that.
made simple: soul - breath = body
Expanded a bit, at the risk of redundancy:
living person (soul) - life (breath) = dead/lifeless body
It's just the making of Adam in reverse, and what do we end up with?
The breath/Spirit returns to God, who gave it. It belongs to Him, and since it is most certainly a part of one of the seven Spirits of God, it is Him. That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell" if it's part of God, does it? No, it goes to the Heavenly realms.
The body begins to decay, and one way or the other, returns to the ground, which gave it. That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell," except in the sense of the grave (the original meaning of "Hell," I believe) - there's no point in sending lifeless bodies to a Hell of eternal torment, is there? It would be absurd.
Oops! What happened to the soul? Gone, gone! It no longer exists, as the living person no longer exists. It doesn't return to anything - it's just like a chemical molecule when it is broken up into it's component atoms – you have atoms, no molecule. Poof! Consider a water molecule undergoing electrolysis – and remember that our bodies are mostly water - the hydrogen bubbles off one electrode, and oxygen bubbles off the other. Asking where the soul went is as pointless as asking where the water went.
It is common for people to think that not only do we have a soul, but an immortal soul. The concept of an immortal soul comes to us from Greek philosophy, but the Biblical view is that the soul is mortal. A few examples will establish this. In Psalm 22:29, we read: "...none can keep alive his own soul." Ezekiel 18:4 is very telling: "The soul that sins, it shall die." Finally, look at the Revelation 16:3 – "And every living soul in the sea died." [all from the KJV II] So there you go, there is no soul, mortal or immortal, to send to Hell – no point sending the non-existent to "Hell." There is nothing to go there at all, so I say Hell is non-existent: 404/Not Found. Now at this point, Damnationist objections will appear – God will resurrect all, some to be saved and some to be cast into Hell. I say, no, they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is not Hell, but more on that later.
Did you know that "Hell" is also a verb? This is how my father explained it to me. Back in the old days, before refrigeration, if you lacked a root cellar, you had to keep fruits and veggies fresh by other means. Say you had a crop of apples to lay by. To do so, you would dig a trench to below the local frost line in the soil, lay down some straw, place a layer of apples on the straw, sprikle more straw on top of the apples, and cover the whole thing with the excavated dirt. At least, that was one method, and it was called "helling" the apples, meaning simply to put them into the ground until used.
Where does this leave us? The soul is no more, the Spirit has returned to God, the body is in the ground, and nothing is left over to go to Hell.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :banana: :dsunny:
Very interesting, Laz!
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 11, 2013, 09:11:32 PM
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on April 11, 2013, 11:00:07 PM
Very interesting, Laz!
:iagree: I agree! I was trying to think of a verse that calls animals a "living soul".. (a life? aka breathing!)