I came across the interesting verse that I have not studied out completely since I have had my heart opened to UR. I would like to hear what some of y'all have to say about this verse.
Quote"For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to {the} {will of} God."
When the verse mentions "to those who are dead" does it mean those who have already died in this lifetime, or those who walk among us spiritually dead? Does this somehow indicate that those who have already died in their sin is having the Gospel ministered to them in Sheol?
Thanks
TS
Message Translation:
3-5You've already put in your time in that God-ignorant way of life, partying night after night, a drunken and profligate life. Now it's time to be done with it for good. Of course, your old friends don't understand why you don't join in with the old gang anymore. But you don't have to give an account to them. They're the ones who will be called on the carpet—and before God himself. 6Listen to the Message. It was preached to those believers who are now dead, and yet even though they died (just as all people must), they will still get in on the life that God has given in Jesus.
New Living Translation
4 Of course, your former friends are surprised when you no longer plunge into the flood of wild and destructive things they do. So they slander you. 5 But remember that they will have to face God, who will judge everyone, both the living and the dead. 6 That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead—so although they were destined to die like all people,[c] they now live forever with God in the Spirit.[d]
Amplified
4They are astonished and think it very queer that you do not now run hand in hand with them in the same excesses of dissipation, and they abuse [you]. 5But they will have to give an account to Him Who is ready to judge and pass sentence on the living and the dead. 6For this is why the good news (the Gospel) was preached [[d]in their lifetime] even to the dead, that though judged in fleshly bodies as men are, they might live in the spirit as God does. 7But the end and culmination of all things has now come near; keep sound minded and self-restrained and alert therefore for [the practice of] prayer.
Thanks Nathan!
So it does sound to me from those three interpretations that this is a UR confirmation verse in that after death they will still be preached the Gospel unto repentance. Is that how you see it?
TS
"Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,..." (1 Peter 4:1)
"For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, [that] though they are judged in the flesh as men, [that] they may live in the spirit according to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:6)
How shall we who suffer and die to sin, still live in it?
May it never be!
"For he who has died is freed from sin." (Romans 6:7)
"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS." (Matthew 11:29)
peacemaker
If I believe that the purpose of the lake of fire is not to destroy the being, but to remove the carnaility that the being retains, and that "every" knee will bow . . ."every" tongue confesses . . .this would imply to me that in order for one to bow one's knee and openly "confess" that Christ is Lord . . . Truth will have had to been exposed to that one at some point or another. So then, I'd say yes, the gospel is also preached (which actually means proclaimed) to even the spirits in prison . .which is what I choose to beleive.
Do I fully understand it all? No, I'm leaning primarily on faith. From what I gather, the cloud of witnesses that we are encompassed by, are redeemed spirits and not spirits that haven't yet bowed their knee. They are the (physical) dead brought to (spiritual) life perhaps. While we are the physically alive walking spiritually alive even though our carnal nature is to be dead within us.
I kind of think my nature is much like the bones of Jacob that was carried around the wilderness by Moses . . .my nature is dead, but I continue to carry that dead nature within me through my journey because a promise was given that a land has been chosen and prepared for me to live in where an inheritance is given. It is there where I bury this nature so it can come to rest in the fertile soil of the promised land of Heaven.
It is only God that can take something dead and birth a completely differnent form of life in it. When we plant our nature in the holy ground of the spirit realm, and let it die, it's death will activate life of another form all together that will then bring forth friut a hundred times greater than the original nature-seed that was planted. "That" is how God manifests his nature in this realm.
1Pe 4:6 Now it was for this very purpose14 that the gospel was preached to those who are now dead,15 so that though16 they were judged in the flesh17 by human standards18 they may live spiritually19 by God's standards.20
Net Commentary:
1Pe 4:6
14 tn Grk "since for this purpose the gospel was preached even to the dead," referring to the purpose described in the clause to follow in 1Pe_4:6 (i.e., 1 Peter 4:6b).
15 sn In context the phrase those who are dead refers to those now dead who had accepted the gospel while they were still living and had suffered persecution for their faith. Though they "suffered judgment" in this earthly life (i.e., they died, in the midst of physical abuse from the ungodly), they will enjoy life from God in the spiritual, heavenly realm because of the gospel (1Pe_4:6 (i.e., 1 Peter 4:6b)). It clearly does not assume a second chance for conversion offered to unbelievers who had died; why would Peter urge people to suffer in this life for the sake of the gospel if he believed that mercy would be extended to all the dead in the hereafter (cf. 1Pe_2:7-8; 1Pe_4:1-5; 1Pe_4:12-19)?
16 tn Grk "so that they may be judged...but may live." Greek emphasizes the contrast between these two clauses more than can be easily expressed in English.
17 tn Or "in their earthly lives," since "flesh" here denotes the physical, earthly life. The phrase "in the flesh" is retained to preserve the links with 1Pe_3:18 and 1Pe_4:1 which use the same wording.
18 tn Grk "according to men."
19 tn Grk "in spirit," referring to the heavenly, eternal realm of existence (cf. 1Pe_3:18).
20 tn Grk "according to God."
Even though I believe in ultimate U.R., I think this verse is speaking about "saved" as in the Kingdom rule here on this earth, after Jesus' return. I think Peter is talking about those in the first resurrection. :dontknow:
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
I just think this verse is not strong enough to use in a discussion/debate.
:2c:
Paul
For to this end also the gospel was preached to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but might live according to God in the Spirit. (Green's Literal)
I thing the underlined implies it were the dead while they were alive but now dead, if it were literally dead people, men in the flesh would sound odd
Quote from: sven on April 25, 2009, 09:03:23 PM
For to this end also the gospel was preached to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but might live according to God in the Spirit. (Green's Literal)
I thing the underlined implies it were the dead while they were alive but now dead, if it were literally dead people, men in the flesh would sound odd
I understand, but how would you reconcile these verses...?
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return."
Psa 6:5 For in death
there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?
Psa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
Psa 88:10 Do you work wonders for the dead?
Do the departed rise up to praise you?
Psa 115:17
The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.
Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth;
on that very day his plans perish.
Job 7:21 Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me,
but I shall not be."
Ecc 3:18-19 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same.
As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (Spirit rûaḥ)
and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it. Notice it is God's Spirit that returns back to him. It is not our spirit, The word is rûaḥ: A feminine noun meaning spirit, wind, breath.
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might,
for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
The question you must ask is how can Jesus preach to someone who is dead and has no thoughts, knowledge or wisdom? The only answer can be, this is not an acceptable U.R. verse we should use. :2c:
Paul
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMGen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
The body, but not the spirit and soul.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMPsa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?
The state of the physically dead, but not applicable to spirit and soul that have departed. Plus, remembrance is a covenant word and simply means there was no afterlife religion but simply the anticipation of judgment. That's why John the Baptist had to die first, to herald His coming to the dead.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMPsa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
Talking about defeat and making his soul to travail so that he was in sackcloth, otherwise, how did he just write that?
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMPsa 88:10 Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you?
As we know through the Gospel, the answer is "yes."
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMPsa 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence.
Judaism context with earthly tabernacle, plus the dead of the old Testament didn't have access to the New Birth. Also, a spiritual warfare key that neglecting to praise the Lord brings death to circumstances. Further goes on to start talking about the bodies that go down in silence. Not applicable to spirit and soul.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMPsa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.
Perhaps his plan was to live two thousand years and have many generations of descendants. The plans being spoken of are natural plans and aren't relevant to the life of spirit and soul in another world.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMJob 7:21 Why do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I shall lie in the earth; you will seek me, but I shall not be."
Hyperbole rather than contextually applicable to a funeral. Many men's circumstances in the earth make them wish for escape from this life, see also Jeremiah and others who cursed their lives and the day of their birth. If someone's died, doesn't mean they can't exist as spirits and souls in a quantum state transfered from the reality of the earthly state to inorganic life that most people in this earth have difficulty contacting. He was talking about natural people in this earth seeking him and not being able to find him.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMEcc 3:18-19 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (Spirit rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
You're presupposing no Covenant of grace and eonian life for the animals. It's not widely taught, but it's there in the Scriptures. Every animal is an eternal spirit and soul, irrespective of their bodies that may be butchered by the nations.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMEcc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it. Notice it is God's Spirit that returns back to him. It is not our spirit, The word is rûaḥ: A feminine noun meaning spirit, wind, breath.
There's nothing in the passage necessitating it's only God's Spirit that returns to God. God's spirit has never been separated from God. This doesn't make sense what you've said. Plus, you're presupposing prophesies like this all immediately happen when physical bodies have faced their apocalyptic cataclysm of whatever sort it may be.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMEcc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom applicable to this life once you've crossed the bridge. Nothing here necessitates oblivion of consciousness.
Quote from: Pierac on April 26, 2009, 05:42:30 AMThe question you must ask is how can Jesus preach to someone who is dead and has no thoughts, knowledge or wisdom? The only answer can be, this is not an acceptable U.R. verse we should use. :2c:
He preached to those that had received the flesh judgment that many have and will receive, but their spirits and souls were definitely most alive elsewhere and made to really have life and that more abundantly after believing the Gospel Jesus taught them.
Quote from: martincisnerosThe body, but not the spirit and soul.
I understand, but this thought is classic Hellenistic Dualism! Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach,
the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. The belief in the imortal soul is a pagan belief that is the extension of Satan's lie... Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman,
"You surely will not die!
If we look at Rev...Rev 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
I do not believe John was talking about only bodys to come to life, but both Body and soul as one. QuoteQuote from: Pierac
Ecc 3:18-19 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (Spirit rûaḥ) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
Quote from: martincisnerosYou're presupposing no Covenant of grace and eonian life for the animals. It's not widely taught, but it's there in the Scriptures. Every animal is an eternal spirit and soul, irrespective of their bodies that may be butchered by the nations.
I believe Ecc 3:18-19 is simply showing this present age, not the age to come! Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might,
for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
Quote from: martincisnerosWork, thought, knowledge, and wisdom applicable to this life once you've crossed the bridge. Nothing here necessitates oblivion of consciousness.
Oh, but it does, as this verse Ecc 9:10 shows the need for a ressurection unto life! Learning together :thumbsup:
Paul