is it sure that the "him" in : to him be the power and the glory..."
is about Jesus and not the father ?
is the greek clear ?
At Revelation 1:6, it says that "he (Jesus Christ) made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him ("him", Greek autos, meaning "the reflexive pronoun self " or pointing toward oneself ) be the glory and the might forever. Amen." This Greek word is also used in the same Scripture, with relation to "God and Father" that is rendered as "his" in the reflexive sense, so that it properly reads "his God and Father". This Greek word is used thousands of times in the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament), as at Matthew 2:2, 4:3, 4:6, 8, 9, 10.
Sharing the Godhead, it is virtually irrelevant whether the "HIM" is Jesus or His Father. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things" All of God dwelt in the physical body of Christ.
Is Christs physical body still present? Yes. After his death he showed Thomas the scars from the nails, and about 25 years after his resurrection, Paul said, "there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ."
(This verse is also used to prove Jesus was not 1/2 man and 1/2 God but that he was 100% God and 100% man.)
God the Father gives Jesus everything.
The problem with "sharing the Godhead" is that no such thing exists. The trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus is God, but the Bible teaches that Jesus is "the only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:16), not God nor "God the Son". The word "Godhead" is what the King James Bible has rendered from the Greek words theion at Acts 17:29, theiotes at Romans 1:20 and theotetos at Colossians 2:9.
The Greek word theion (G2304) is properly rendered as "divine" , while theiotes (G2305) is properly rendered as "divinity, divine nature" and theotetos (G2320) as "deity, divinity".(Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament; Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)
Hence, at Revelation 1:6, the statement is true that says of Jesus, concerning those chosen by his Father, Jehovah God for the "heavenly calling", that "he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever." Jesus thus has a "God and Father", for the apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesian congregation: "I continue mentioning you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him."(Eph 1:16, 17)
And Jesus, through the Revelation given to John in about 96 C.E., said to the Laodicean congregation: "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14; 2:18)
IN the beginning was the word and the word was with God and was God.
Pretty clear unless you read the jehovah witness biased translation.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 06:32:52 AM
IN the beginning was the word and the word was with God and was God.
Pretty clear unless you read the jehovah witness biased translation.
The New World Translation is accurate at John 1:1, reading: "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." This has been confirmed with a ancient manuscript from Egypt. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus' earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language.
Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible,
The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: "Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are
significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses."
The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect.
The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work
Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: "The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds
closely to the use of the articles in English."
Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an
indefinite article with the word "god" in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads:
In the beginning existed the Word
and the Word existed with
the God and
a god was
the Word
(SAHIDIC COPTIC TEXT; P. CHESTER BEATTY-813; WITH INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION, located at Dublin, Ireland) Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John's words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was
a god, not Almighty God.
Yes, there is God the Father and God the Son. The Son came from the Father but he wasn't the Father.
CHB
jaareshiah,
all bible scholars agree the New world translation is biased toward their own doctrine.
IMO it's stupid to say that Jesus is A god But not THE God since the bible is very clear there is one God.
Jesus did stuff only God can do:
1. Forgive sins
2. Accept worship from others
3. Give sight to the blind
4. Resurrect the dead
5. Not correct THomas when he fell to his knees in front of Jesus and called out "My Lord and MY GOD.
6 Told discip[les to pray to him and ask him(Jesus) for anything they wanted
7. Was One with the Father
8. He knew the future
9. he knew what others were thinking
10. Nature(ther wind and waves) obeyed him
11. Walked on water and enabled Peter to also
12. Jesus said that only jesus and the Father had life unto themself(life was not imparted to them)
13. Was the imageof the invisible God and the pattern when God said, "Let us make man in our image"
14. In Genesis it says Jacob wrestled with a man When Jacob told Joseph, Jacob said it was God almighty.
15. Jesus said that if you had seen him, you had seen the (invisible) Father.and others I can't think of off the top of my head.
Concerning mighty and almighty - that's straight out of the JW handbook on what to say when going door to door since the Godhood of Jesus is the first thing to come up.
Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, a son is given, and the government shall be on his shoulders and he will be called wonderful, counselor, mighty, God, everlasting, Father, the prince of peace.
Jesus and the Father are both God. Jesus is willingly subordinate to the Father though they never disagree on anything anyway.
My earthly Father and I are both men but I am willingly subordinate to my Father. It doesn't mean we are not equal or that we both aren't men.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 28, 2012, 09:20:23 PM
jaareshiah,
all bible scholars agree the New world translation is biased toward their own doctrine.
IMO it's stupid to say that Jesus is A god But not THE God since the bible is very clear there is one God.
Jesus did stuff only God can do:
1. Forgive sins
2. Accept worship from others
3. Give sight to the blind
4. Resurrect the dead
5. Not correct THomas when he fell to his knees in front of Jesus and called out "My Lord and MY GOD.
6 Told discip[les to pray to him and ask him(Jesus) for anything they wanted
7. Was One with the Father
8. He knew the future
9. he knew what others were thinking
10. Nature(ther wind and waves) obeyed him
11. Walked on water and enabled Peter to also
12. Jesus said that only jesus and the Father had life unto themself(life was not imparted to them)
13. Was the imageof the invisible God and the pattern when God said, "Let us make man in our image"
14. In Genesis it says Jacob wrestled with a man When Jacob told Joseph, Jacob said it was God almighty.
15. Jesus said that if you had seen him, you had seen the (invisible) Father.and others I can't think of off the top of my head.
Concerning mighty and almighty - that's straight out of the JW handbook on what to say when going door to door since the Godhood of Jesus is the first thing to come up.
Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, a son is given, and the government shall be on his shoulders and he will be called wonderful, counselor, mighty, God, everlasting, Father, the prince of peace.
Jesus and the Father are both God. Jesus is willingly subordinate to the Father though they never disagree on anything anyway.
My earthly Father and I are both men but I am willingly subordinate to my Father. It doesn't mean we are not equal or that we both aren't men.
If it is "stupid to say that Jesus is A god", then why did those who wrote down this Scripture in Sahidic Coptic some 1700 years ago then translate it as "
a god ", even possibly before the Codex
Vaticanus and
Siniaticus of the 4th century C.E. ? The translators from Greek to Sahidic Coptic were well
aware of what John wrote and meant and accordingly translated John 1:1 as "a god" instead of "God".
It has since been translated as "God" due to the 4th century acceptance of the trinity. Prior to this, the trinity doctrine did
not exist. So, there has since been a
forcing of "a square pag in around hole" because the trinity doctrine was now accepted, from the end of the 4th century onward, by Catholicism, with the Creed of Athanasius "unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century."(
The New Encyclopedia Britannica)
Most never give consideration to the fact that John used the definite article "the" (Greek
ho) before the 1st and 3rd times with the Greek word
theos (making it properly read "the God") at John 1:1, 2, but did
not with the 2nd use of
theos, thus making the word "god" here
indefinite or "a god".
To read otherwise, shows a lack of serious Bible study, but rather a bias toward the trinity. For example, at Acts 12:22, the
King James Bible renders the Greek word
theos without the definite article as "a god" as well as at Acts 28:6.
The
New World Translation has thus followed this proper rendering of "a god", rather than allowing the religious traditions of the churches to dictate what John wrote.
Jaareshiah,
I guess since you are a Jehovah Witness you haven't been told about the new world translation except from their side of it.
What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:
Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)
Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."
British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."
"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)
Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"
"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)
the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin
Now about John 1:1 specifically:
The Society used a translation by a SPIRIT MEDIUM, Johannes Greber, to support their rendering of John 1:1 with full knowledge that his sources were DEMONIC. Greber was exposed in the Feb. 15/56 Watchtower. However in 1961 they released a translation based on his occult one, then denied they knew what they were doing on page 31 of the Apr. 1, 1983 Watchtower!
and...
The NWT translates Jn 1:1 as "... and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was a god". How can the Word (Jesus) be "a god" if God says in Deut 32:39, "See now that I-I am he, and there are NO gods together WITH me ..."?
Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?
Now about the New World mistranslation generally referring to Christ and God:
In the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read?
The NWT translates the Greek word "kyrios" as "Jehovah" more than 25 times in the New Testament (Mt 3:3, Lk 2:9, Jn 1:23, Acts 21:14, Rom 12:19, Col 1:10, 1Thess 5:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rev 4:8, etc.). Why is the word "Jehovah" translated when it does not appear in the Greek text? Why is the NWT not consistent in translating kyrios (kurion) as "Jehovah" in Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1, and Rev 22:21 (see Gr-Engl Interlinear)?
The NWT translates the Greek words "ego eimi" as "I am" every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as "I have been". What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If "ego eimi" was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?
In Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is "coming quickly", says of himself, " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". In Rev 1:17-18, Jesus, the one who "became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever", refers to himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end ...". God is also referred to as the "first" and the "last" in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last?
Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?
Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory..."
Jn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself" created the heavens and the earth and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus was created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created?
In Jn 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus in Greek as "Ho kyrios moy kai ho theos moy". This translates literally as "the Lord of me and THE God of me". Why does Jesus, in Jn 20:29, affirm Thomas for having come to this realization? If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement?
In Phil 2:9, the NWT inserts the word "other", even though it doesn't appear in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). What is the reason for inserting this word? Is the word "Jehovah" a name? See Ex 6:3, Ps 83:18, and Isa 42:8. How would the verse read if the word "other" had not been inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? See Prov 30:5-6.
In Col 1:15-17, the NWT inserts the word "other" 4 times even though it is not in the original Greek (see Gr-Engl interlinear). Why is the word "other" inserted? How would these verses read if the word "other" had not been inserted?
In 2Pet 1:1, the NWT inserts the word "the". Why is it inserted? How would the verse read if the word "the" was not inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? (See Prov 30:5-6).
In Mt 1:23, who is Matthew referring to here that has been given the name which means "With Us Is God"?
The Bible says that ONLY God is our savior (Hos 13:4, Isa 43:11,45:21, etc.). How can it be then, that the Bible repeatedly says that Jesus Christ is our savior (Lk 2:11, Phil 3:20, Tit 2:13, 3:6, 2Pet 1:1, 2:20, 3:18, etc.)?
In Mt 28:19, Jesus tells his disciples to baptize "people of all the nations ...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit". Why would the disciples be instructed to baptize in the name of anybody or anything who was not God? Do Jehovah's Witnesses follow the command of Jesus and baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit"?
Who or what does the spirit of Christ (Phil 1:19, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9) refer to? In Gal 4:6, how is it possible that the spirit of Christ could come into our hearts? How is it possible that the spirit of CHRIST could reside in someone? If what the Watchtower Society teaches is true, how could Paul make this statement if Christ was a spirit person residing in heaven?
In Jn 8:56, Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced". Since Abraham died hundreds of years before Jesus said this, how could Jesus say that Abraham "saw it and rejoiced", if there is no conscious awareness after death?
I've been brought to a pretty simplistic view of it, that works best for me. I don't call myself Trinitarian or any label on it.
My son has my last name. He has my blood, dna, genes. He is of the same substance as me. He is a Berry. We're both Berrys. But I'm the dad, he's the son. Yet being earthly, we don't always work as one.
I see God and His Son the same way, in that they are of the same Substance - Divine, God. Yet one is the Father, the other is the Son. Jesus the Son is subject to YHWH the Father - yet being heavenly, they always work as One ("I and my Father are one").
There is a Holy/Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to represent Him - of which we need to be filled to overflowing.
My :2c:. Blessings.
You're right Jabcat. An interesting thing is that Jesus was subject to heavenly Father.
IMO he was also subject to his earthly father, Joseph (When there was no conflict)
(Honor your Father and Mother.) Even though Jesus did not inherit the sinful blood of Joseph, I believe he subjected himself to Joseph for the sake of Mary and His true Father.
Any brothers and sisters? How often do you think the earthly brothers and sisters of Jesus had to hear, "What's wrong with you? Why can't you be more like Jesus?" ...I mean it does say some of his brothers resented him.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham,
Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
Whittle, whittle. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 29, 2012, 07:23:05 PM
The NWT translates the Greek words "ego eimi" as "I am" every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as "I have been". What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If "ego eimi" was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read?
What is really the proper rendering of John 8:58, with several Bibles capitolizing "I AM" so as to convey a title ? Over a
thousand years before the
King James Bible or a myriad of other Bibles came onto the scene, ancient Bible manuscripts had translated this verse as:
(1) "before Abraham was, I have been" (Fourth/Fifth century -Syriac-Edition:
A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894),
(2) "before ever Abraham, came to be, I was" (Fifth Century, Curetonian Syriac-Edition:
The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, by F.Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1, Cambridge, England, 1904),
(3) "before Abraham existed, I was" (Fifth century, Syriac Pesh itta-Edition:
The Syriac New Testament Translated into English from the Pesh itto Version, by James Murdock, seventh ed., Boston and London, 1896),
(4) "before Abraham came to be, I was" (Fifth century, Georgian-Edition:"
The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John," by Robert P. Blake and Maurice Brière, published in Patrologia Orientalis, Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950),
(5) "before Abraham was born, I was"(Sixth century,
Ethiopic-Edition:Novum Testamentum . . .Æthiopice (The New Testament . . . in Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899).
Jesus was replying as to how old he was, just as any reasonable person would if asked his age, that he existed before Abraham. This Scripture also cannot be linked to Exodus 3:14, as rendered incorrectly by the
King James Bible. Thus,
William's New Testament reads: "Then Jesus said to them, "I most solemnly say to you, I existed before Abraham was born".
In addition, at John 9:9, the
King James Bible adds the word "he" to the words "I am" (Greek
ego eimi) concerning the man born blind. Why did the
King James Bible not add "he" as well to Jesus words at John 8:58 of
ego eimi ?
Jaareshiah,
Again, you didn't answer the question. You brought up some obscure translations that perhaps translated it the way the JW's did. This does not mean it was correct. I agree with you in that the King James translation was incorrect in adding (he)
The point is "ego eimi" is and alsways should be translated "I am"
The fact that the Jews picked up stones to stone him to death. Blasphemy was a crime punishable by stoning and by Jesus claiming I AM it was the same as making himself equal with God.
New World translation reads:
John 10:32-33 Jesus replied to them: "I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?" 33 The Jews answered him: "We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy,even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god."
This is of course a mistranslation because the jews were monotheistic and would never have said "a god" (another reason why John, a Jew, would never have written "and the Word was "a God" in John 1:1
This is Young's literal translation:
John 10:32
Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'
10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'
Quote from: jabcat on October 29, 2012, 11:49:08 PM
I've been brought to a pretty simplistic view of it, that works best for me. I don't call myself Trinitarian or any label on it.
My son has my last name. He has my blood, dna, genes. He is of the same substance as me. He is a Berry. We're both Berrys. But I'm the dad, he's the son. Yet being earthly, we don't always work as one.
I see God and His Son the same way, in that they are of the same Substance - Divine, God. Yet one is the Father, the other is the Son. Jesus the Son is subject to YHWH the Father - yet being heavenly, they always work as One ("I and my Father are one").
There is a Holy/Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to represent Him - of which we need to be filled to overflowing.
My :2c:. Blessings.
I agree. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".
Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.
So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.
CHB
QuoteI agree. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".
Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.
So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.
CHB
No the head of Christ is GOD.
Jesus said blasphemy against the Son is forgivable in this age, but blasphemy against the holy spirit (honour mother and Father) shall not be forgiven in this age and the age to come.
God is a Holy spirit,and so too those in Him. You must be born again from above[Jerusalem Above]
the Mother s head is God....her Husband. Male/female roles on earth reflect that which is in Heaven
Jerualem Above is the free woman.. Ministering spirits[angels/holy spirits] minister to those who
inherit eternal life. Rev 22;8,9.
Jerusalem Above,our Mother...is the breasts of Heaven[dove] that nurtures the sons of God
Jesus spoke of legions of angels at His disposal..as did satan when he tried to tempt Jesus to
throw himself down. Holy angels are ministering holy spirits
Quote from: thinktank on October 30, 2012, 07:33:09 PM
QuoteI agree. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".
Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.
So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.
CHB
No the head of Christ is GOD.
Jesus said blasphemy against the Son is forgivable in this age, but blasphemy against the holy spirit (honour mother and Father) shall not be forgiven in this age and the age to come.
God is a title of deity and thus........ "So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list." (CHB)
I like that :Peace2:
Quote from: sheila on October 30, 2012, 07:44:15 PM
God is a Holy spirit,and so too those in Him. You must be born again from above[Jerusalem Above]
the Mother s head is God....her Husband. Male/female roles on earth reflect that which is in Heaven
Jerualem Above is the free woman.. Ministering spirits[angels/holy spirits] minister to those who
inherit eternal life. Rev 22;8,9.
Jerusalem Above,our Mother...is the breasts of Heaven[dove] that nurtures the sons of God
Jesus spoke of legions of angels at His disposal..as did satan when he tried to tempt Jesus to
throw himself down. Holy angels are ministering holy spirits
"God is a Holy spirit,....." I was of the understanding that God is spirit??? John 4:24
Quote from: thinktank on October 30, 2012, 07:33:09 PM
QuoteI agree. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".
Paul said in (1Cor.11:3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.
So here paul is showing the rank or authority from the top down. The Father is at the top, then Christ, man, then woman. Here is one proof that the Holy Spirit is not a person because it is not in the above list.
CHB
No the head of Christ is GOD.
Jesus said blasphemy against the Son is forgivable in this age, but blasphemy against the holy spirit (honour mother and Father) shall not be forgiven in this age and the age to come.
I said "the head of Christ is God"?
CHB
This is from Acts 5:3-4
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."
This is pretty conclusive not even counting all the old testament verses that say God is Holy and God is Spirit, which makes God a Holy Spirit.
Quote from: CHB on October 30, 2012, 09:16:47 PM
I said "the head of Christ is God"?
CHB
I read and re-read..that's what
I understood. :dontknow: What'chu talkin' 'bout, tankster? :eyebrow:
I am not disagreeing so much as wondering where are all these verses are that "say," God is holy and God is a spirit? I do not accept that God is "a" holy spirit. I just rubs me wrong how man has this seeming need to separate and discect ONE. As far as I know God is spirit, please let us leave the "A" out.
"This is pretty conclusive not even counting all the old testament verses that say God is Holy and God is Spirit, which makes God a Holy Spirit."
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 11:43:44 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 30, 2012, 09:16:47 PM
I said "the head of Christ is God"?
CHB
I read and re-read..that's what I understood. :dontknow: What'chu talkin' 'bout, tankster? :eyebrow:
Yeah me too :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
Micah,
The simple fact is that God is A holy spirit and God is THE holy Spirit.
Job 32:8
But it is the spirit of Almighty God that comes to us and gives us wisdom.
John4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."
Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
I Cor 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by
I Cor 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
II Cor 5:5
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us theSpirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come
Lev 19:2
"Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.
Joshua 24:19
Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.
Psalm 71:22
I will praise you with the harp for your faithfulness, my God; I will sing praise to you with the lyre, Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 99:5
I will praise you with the harp for your faithfulness, my God; I will sing praise to you with the lyre, Holy One of Israel.
Psalm 99:9
Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his holy mountain, for the LORD our God is holy.
Rom 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Ok? I mean okay :HeartThrob: I am bowing out of this discussion, I don't know where it went which means I should not be in it. Thanks :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 30, 2012, 01:59:38 PM
Jaareshiah,
Again, you didn't answer the question. You brought up some obscure translations that perhaps translated it the way the JW's did. This does not mean it was correct. I agree with you in that the King James translation was incorrect in adding (he)
The point is "ego eimi" is and alsways should be translated "I am"
The fact that the Jews picked up stones to stone him to death. Blasphemy was a crime punishable by stoning and by Jesus claiming I AM it was the same as making himself equal with God.
New World translation reads:
John 10:32-33 Jesus replied to them: "I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?" 33 The Jews answered him: "We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy,even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god."
This is of course a mistranslation because the jews were monotheistic and would never have said "a god" (another reason why John, a Jew, would never have written "and the Word was "a God" in John 1:1
This is Young's literal translation:
John 10:32
Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'
10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'
The
evidence is there regardless of how you see it. The
King James Bible is not a Bible that anyone can "hang their hat on" due to its many inaccuracies. The
King James translators recognized at John 9:9, the need to add the word "he" for clarification and then many have tried to attach John 8:58, with its rendering of "I AM" with Exodus 3:14, with the
King James Bible reading there as "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
But, had you
really done your homework rather than quickly assuming that this correct, you could have seen that the Hebrew "היהא רשא היהא ('
Eh·yeh´ 'Asher´ 'Eh·yeh´) at Exodus 3:14, is more accurately rendered as "I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE" (
Leeser); "I Will Become whatsoever I please." (
Rotherham) and by the
Scripture4all interlinear as "I shall become who I am becoming", taking into consideration the Hebrew word
hayah, which the
King James Bible does
not even recognize. The Greek
Septuagint translated the Hebrew at Exodus 3:14 as "
E·go´ ei·mi ho on, "I am The Being," or, "I am The Existing One", not just as "I AM".
Had you looked more closely, you would have considered the Hebrew word
hayah that is within Exodus 3:14 three times and it could have been seen that
hayah means "become: cause to be", with
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible rendering it as "exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass."
At Exodus 3:14,
'Eh·yeh´ is in the imperfect state (action that is not completed), first person singular, meaning "I shall become"; or, "I shall prove to be." The reference here is
not to God's self-existence (as meant by I AM) but to what he has in mind to become
toward others. Thus, the
New World Translation accurately reads at Exodus 3:14: "I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE" and not inaccurately as "I AM THAT I AM". You are not up-to-date. Proverbs 21:5 says: "The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage, but everyone that is hasty surely heads for want."
At Matthew 26:22 in the
King James Bible, the Greek words of
ego eimi is not rendered as "I am", but as "it is I" due to the context, whereas at John 4:26, it reads "I that speak to thee am [he]" adding the word "he" there as well at John 8:24 and 28, and John 18:5, 6, 8. Sentence structure or morphology, as well as tense, has to be considered when a word is translated into another language.
Thus, the five ancient manuscripts of the fifth/sixth centuries C.E. that were in either Syrian, Georgian or Ethiopic and that were translated from Koine Greek give sound evidence of what Jesus said and meant at John 8:58: "Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."(
New World Translation)
Here is what the Concordant says.
"19 Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the holy spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?"
Sounds like it is saying, "the Holy Spirit WHICH YOU HAVE FROM GOD".
The KJ also says this.
My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.
CHB
Jaareshiah,
Again, your reply was as if you hadn't read what I wrote at all. I agreed with you that the King James is a poor translation.
Then you compared "ego eimi" (I am) in the New Testament to "ego eimi ho on" from the greek septuagint which is obviously not the same.
Then I quoted solely from the New World Translation and even told you that was which version it was.
Regardless, we are off the subject and I know from past experience that no one "wins" in verbal ping pong so there's not much point in playing.
I will tell you the good news that eventually, you and all other Jehovah Witnesses will be reconciled to Jehovah Jesus, and at the name of Jesus, all our knees will bow to the glory of God the Father, for salvation is from no other name (not even Jehovah)by which all are saved but in the name of Jesus.
Your choice - to be free in Christ or be bound to an organization that tells you what to think and what "work" is expected of you to stay in good standing.
CHB,
Jesus is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, and neither is the holy spirit. However all three are what is incorrectly called a trinity and properly called a triunity. In that all 3 are God in one person. I'm sure you're aware of several spots where Jesus is referred to as God and there are 2 points to consider about the holy spirit being God.
1. Acts 5:3-5 "Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received from the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? and after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
2. Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
Scripture uses many terms that are used when speaking of a person and applies them to the Holy Spirit:
He helps (John 16:7).
He comforts (John 14:16).
He convicts of sin (John 16:17).
He gives testimony of Jesus (John 15:26).
He teaches and brings to remembrance (John 14:26).
He guides (John 16:13).
He restrains (2 Thess. 2:7).
He speaks and instructs (Acts 8:29; 10:19; John 16:13).
He interprets our prayers (Rom. 8:26).
He sets apart/sanctifies (2Thess. 2:13).
He hears (John 16:13).
He seals us (Eph. 1:13).
He knows and communicates (1 Cor. 2:11; Rom. 8:27).
He sends (Acts 13:4).
He brings forth life (John 3:6 compare Gen. 1:3).
He is a witness (Acts 5:32).
He reveals (Eph. 3:5).
He prevents/stops (Acts 16:6-7).
He wills/separates (Acts 13:2).
He has a will by which He decides, chooses and distributes (1 Cor. 12:11).
He can be lied to (Acts 5:3-4) (see above)
He can be tested (Acts 5:9).
He can be grieved (Eph. 4:30).
He leads (Matt. 4:1).
The Spirit "said" to Philip. (Acts 8:29).
The Spirit "said" to Peter. (Acts 10:19-20).
Peter said he was "told" by the Spirit (Acts 11:12).
The Holy Spirit "solemnly testifies" (Acts 20:23).
The Holy Spirit "made" some of the early Christians "overseers to shepherd the Church". (Acts 20:28).
The Holy Spirit "spoke" (Acts 28:25-27).
Acts 15:22 states that "it seemed good to the apostles and the elders." Nothing particularly striking about this as it is just stating that something was good to certain people, in this case the apostles and the elders. However, in verse 28 we see an interesting parallel: "...it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us..." (Acts 15:28). Obviousely, this is similar to the earlier verse. But what is significant with both of these parallel verses is that the writer of Acts includes the Spirit along with various people as though he is just listing another Person. The casual way that this is presented makes this even more striking. The Apostles, elders, and the Spirit recognise something as being "good". Now if the Spirit were not a Person, but rather an impersonal force, as the Watchtower claim, it would be like saying "it seemed good to the wind and to us." Obviously, such a statement would make no sense.
And finally, the Holy Spirit was present in the form of a dove at the Baptism of Jesus while the Father spoke from above and Jesus commanded us to Baptize in the NAME OF 1.) The Father 2.)The Son and 3.) The Holy Spirit
I have to disagree with the idea that the Holy Spirit is a person or being. I believe the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses throughout the universe.
The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in any of the epistles when the apostles give an introduction. They always start out as saying "The apostle of Jesus Christ by the will, or by the commandment of God. (Gal. 1:1) says "but by Jesus Christ AND God the Father". They don't mention the Holy Spirit.
There are many things in the scriptures that are given ginders though they are not personalities at all. Some things are even given mouths to speak "if the foot shall say, and if the ear shall say" (1Cor. 12:15,16). In Psalms it says "Let the heavens rejoice and let the earth be glad. Let the field be joyful and all the trees rejoice. It says "the mountains and hills shall break forth singing".
What kind of personality could you give the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist said "I saw the Spirit decending from heaven like a dove and IT abode on him." In Genesis 1 it says "and the Spirit of God moved (Hebrew: was fluttering) upon the face of the waters" Here Christ describes the Holy Spirit, the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hear the sound but cannot tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth."
(Acts 10:45) says the Spirit can be poured out on people. Christ said "he that believeth in meas the scriptures hath said, OUT OF HIS BELLY SHALL FLOW RIVERS OF LIVING WATERS. But this spake he of the Spirit.
James was a servant of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. James said nothing about the Holy Spirit. John said "And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son , Jesus Christ. John doesn't mention the Holy Spirit here.
You said Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Then wouldn't the Holy Spirit be the Father of Christ if it is a seperate being? I think here is the answer: ( Luke 1:35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee.
CHB
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 11:59:19 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 11:43:44 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 30, 2012, 09:16:47 PM
I said "the head of Christ is God"?
CHB
I read and re-read..that's what I understood. :dontknow: What'chu talkin' 'bout, tankster? :eyebrow:
Yeah me too :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
The Head of Christ is GOD, not the Father. The term God applies to both the Father, Son and the Holy ghost. Since in this verse it cannot refer to the Son, then it must refer to Father and Holy Spirit.
we know that parents are Head over their children.
Genesis 1:27
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
HOLY SPIRIT IS ANNOINTING OR MARKING/SEAL AS BELONGING TO GOD AS THE BEAST HAS A MARK.
IT IS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT AND HOLDS AUTHORITY. IT SANCTIFIES
WHO IS THIS MAN WITH THE INKHORN? AN ANGEL..WITH AN INK-HORN THAT MARKS THOSE
APPROVED IN THE CITY. BEAST HAS HIS HORN AND AN ANGELIC SPIRIT HAS HIS
EZEKIEL 9 WITH THEM WAS A MAN CLOTHED IN LINEN WHO HAD A WRITING KIT AT HIS SIDE
WRITE NEW NAMES,NAME OF NEW JERUSALEM ETC.
THEN THE LORD CALLED TO THE MAN CLOTHED IN LINEN WHO HAD THE WRITING KIT AT HIS SIDE
AND SAID TO HIM..GO THROUGHOUT THE CITY OF JERUSALEM AND PUT A MARK ON THE
FOREHEAD OF ALL THOSE WHO GRIEVE AND LAMENT OVER ALL THE DETESTABLE THINGS DONE
IN IT.
FOR THIS REASON JESUS TOLD HIS DISCIPLES TO STAY IN JERUSALEM TIL POWER AND AUTHORITY
WAS POURED OUT ON THEM.
TWO OLIVE TREES OF WHICH THE GOLDEN OIL COMES FROM. HE ALSO CALLED HIM THE COMFORTOR
HE HAS A MINISTRY TOO READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER OF EZEKIEL 8 NOT THE SIX GUARDIAN
ANGELS OF THE CITY,PLUS THE SEVENTH CLOTHED IN LINEN..THEN GO TO REV 8;2,6 AS THE ANGELS
THAT WORK THE JUDGEMENTS OF GOD.
THERE ARE HEAVENLY HOSTS PEOPLE..MYRIADS OF THEM
JESUS SAID THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD TESIFY OF HIM
CHB
2 Cor 13:14-
"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
Can you fellowship with a force? I didn't say they are different beings. One God, 3 persons (or personalities)
Besides, omitting mentioning the Holy spirit in the introduction means little since on a couple of the letters The Father is omitted on either the beginning or the end.
The personality of the Holy Spirit is one with the Father and the Son.
The Son glorifies the Father and the Spirit glorifies the son.
As for the last, the Holy Ghost IS the power of the Father.
To me, if anythging can be lied to, grieved,give testimony of Jesus, convict of sin, teaches, reminds, guides, leads, restrains, instructs, sets apart, heals, instructs, knows, sends, brings forth life, has a will that he exerts, can be tested, grieved etc.
There is a huge amount of information concerning aspects of the Holy Spirit's personality. There is scant information concerning Satan or the archangel Michael yet I don't know of anyone questioning whether these 2 are persons.
Is it just that finite humans like me have trouble wrapping our heads around the one God having 3 seperate personalities?
I think that it is just there never has been and never will be another being like God. :2c:
QuoteYou said Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Then wouldn't the Holy Spirit be the Father of Christ if it is a seperate being? I think here is the answer: ( Luke 1:35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST shall overshadow thee.
CHB
The text says both the Holy Ghost AND the power of the highest. :Peace2:
NOW,YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH A FEW ARCHANGELS NAMES LIKE MICHAEL AND GABRIEL...
BUT THEY ALL HAVE NAMES,FUNCTIONS AND MINISTRYS OF SERVICE TO THE BODY IN CHRIST.
AS IS DONE ON EARTH. SEVEN ANGELS OF CHURCH IN CHRIST'S HANDS..SEVEN LAMPSTANDS
AS CHURCHES/ ANGELS ARE STARS AND THEY ARE IN CHRISTS HAND. ANGELS SERVE HIM
WE DON'T HEAR MUCH ABOUT THEM INDIVIDUALLY..BECAUSE THEY SEE THEMSELVES
AS FELLOW WORKERS WITH US. AND WE ARE NOT TO WORSHIP THEM BUT BE FELLOW WORKERS
LOOK AT THE STARS[LIGHT] AND THE OIL THAT BURNS IN THE LAMPSTANDS WITH THEIR FLAME
OF LIGHTS
..
I TELL YOU THE MAN WITH INKHORN/ANGEL DOES HAVE A NAME. GOD KNOWS IT,JESUS KNOWS IT
AND WHEN YOU ARE GLORIFIED YOU WILL HAVE A NEW NAME ALSO
INCORRUPTIBLE SPIRITUAL CREATURES ARE HOLY ANGELS
WHERE in the Bible is the Holy Spirit called or refered to as a "person"?
And I side note, the teaching of the trinity is a theologian theory and hypothesis. The trinity teaching is an unsound doctrine and only true if one finds believing in it, without scriptural verse, a satisfaction.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Other than this one verse Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Is there another verse to show this formula in the Bible? I mean is there a verse to bear witness to it having weight?
[Of this] first taking note, that [no prophecy of scripture] becometh [self solving,]
For not by [will of man] was prophecy brought in [at anytime]. But as [by the Holy Spirit] they were borne along> spake [men] from God. 2 Pet. 1:2021 (Rotherham)
Quote from: sheila on October 31, 2012, 09:45:52 PM
NOW,YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH A FEW ARCHANGELS NAMES LIKE MICHAEL AND GABRIEL...
BUT THEY ALL HAVE NAMES,FUNCTIONS AND MINISTRYS OF SERVICE TO THE BODY IN CHRIST.
AS IS DONE ON EARTH. SEVEN ANGELS OF CHURCH IN CHRIST'S HANDS..SEVEN LAMPSTANDS
AS CHURCHES/ ANGELS ARE STARS AND THEY ARE IN CHRISTS HAND. ANGELS SERVE HIM
WE DON'T HEAR MUCH ABOUT THEM INDIVIDUALLY..BECAUSE THEY SEE THEMSELVES
AS FELLOW WORKERS WITH US. AND WE ARE NOT TO WORSHIP THEM BUT BE FELLOW WORKERS
LOOK AT THE STARS[LIGHT] AND THE OIL THAT BURNS IN THE LAMPSTANDS WITH THEIR FLAME
OF LIGHTS
..
I TELL YOU THE MAN WITH INKHORN/ANGEL DOES HAVE A NAME. GOD KNOWS IT,JESUS KNOWS IT
AND WHEN YOU ARE GLORIFIED YOU WILL HAVE A NEW NAME ALSO
INCORRUPTIBLE SPIRITUAL CREATURES ARE HOLY ANGELS
WHERE in the Bible is Gabriel called or refered to as an Archangel????
Quote from: CHB on October 31, 2012, 05:00:10 PM
Here is what the Concordant says.
"19 Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the holy spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?"
Sounds like it is saying, "the Holy Spirit WHICH YOU HAVE FROM GOD".
The KJ also says this.
My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.
CHB
I like your speak, it is sound :HeartThrob: I have been given to understand the Holy Spirit as the very
ENERGY of the Father God; it's how He gets things done.
OK MICAH............WOULD YOU CALL JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH?
THE ARK OF THE COVENANT[NOTE FIRST COVENANT WITH TABLETSOF TESTIMONY[WORD OF GOD] OF LAW]
LOOK! THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WAS SEEN WITHIN HISTEMPLE IN HEAVEN-YOU DO NOT
THINK THAT IS MOSES ARK DO YOU?
WHO CAME AN ANNOUNCED TO MARY THAT SHE WOULD CONCEIVE A CHILD BY THE HOLY
SPIRIT? GABRIEL. HE HAD RESPONSIBILITIES OF SERVICE TO HEAVEN REGARDING THE
TRUE ARK OF THE COVENANT,EVEN JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH
THAT MAKES HIM AN ARK ANGEL.
LOOK AT THE SEVEN STARS IN HIS HAND ANGELS..THAT MAKES THEM ARK-ANGELS TOO..
WHAT WAS ESTABLISH ON EARTH IS A PATTERN OF WHAT IS IN HEAVEN...LOOK AT 12 GATES/ANGELS
THAT ARE AS PEARLS OF HOLY CITY. THERE ARE TWELVE ARCHANGELS IN HEAVEN...
FOR THIS REASON JACOB HAD TWELVE SONS..JESUS HAD 12 APOSTLE'S
Micah said - Other than this one verse Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Is there another verse to show this formula in the Bible? I mean is there a verse to bear witness to it having weight?
How many verses does it take to establish a doctrine? How many when it is the direct word of Jesus? :dontknow:
LET EVERY MATTER BE ESTABLISH AT THE WORD OF TWO OR THREE WITTNESS....
JESUS SAID THE FATHER TESTIFIES ALSO..SO IF YOU SEE GOD SAY IT IN THE SCRIPTURES JESUS SAY
IT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT SAY IT..YOU KNOW IT IS SOUND.
CHB said - My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.
If I use my body to get things done and I get all my power from it, is it not me in essence?
I still think it's trying to explain a being that has never been before God and never after. We try in our feeble attempts to understand the being of God by something we are familiar with.
The closest thing I can come to is man is mind, body, and spirit. Christ the body, is subject to the mind(the Father) and of course the spirit coincides with spirit. I just think we were created in the image of God and God is just infinitely more so than what we are. :2c:
BUT WHEN HE,THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH COMES,HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH
HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN HE WILL SPEAK ONLY WHAT HE HEARS
AND HE WILL TELL YOU WHAT IS YET TO COME HE WILL BRING GLORY TO ME
REV 1 THE REVELATION OF JESUSCHRIST WHICH GOD GAVE HIM TO SHOW HIS SERVANTS
WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE SOON[YET TO COME]
HE..........MADE.....IT.......KNOWN....TO....ME....BY SENDING....HIS........ANGEL TO HIS SERVANT
JOHN, WHO TESTIFIES...TO EVERYTHING..HE...SAW
Quote from: sheila on October 31, 2012, 10:43:13 PM
LET EVERY MATTER BE ESTABLISH AT THE WORD OF TWO OR THREE WITTNESS....
JESUS SAID THE FATHER TESTIFIES ALSO..SO IF YOU SEE GOD SAY IT IN THE SCRIPTURES JESUS SAY
IT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT SAY IT..YOU KNOW IT IS SOUND.
:dsunny: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: thinktank on October 31, 2012, 09:26:10 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 30, 2012, 11:59:19 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2012, 11:43:44 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 30, 2012, 09:16:47 PM
I said "the head of Christ is God"?
CHB
I read and re-read..that's what I understood. :dontknow: What'chu talkin' 'bout, tankster? :eyebrow:
Yeah me too :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
The Head of Christ is GOD, not the Father. The term God applies to both the Father, Son and the Holy ghost. Since in this verse it cannot refer to the Son, then it must refer to Father and Holy Spirit.
You are right in saying that the word God applies to the Son and the Father but it also applies to us, angels, and other gods as well. Paul said "there are many gods and many lords. As I understand it, the word God is a family name that applies to all of the family of God. (Eph. 3:15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
CHB
Micah said, "WHERE in the Bible is Gabriel called or refered to as an Archangel????
Gabriel is not named directly as an archangel but, there were only three angels named in the bible. Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel. Michael is mentioned as an archangel and referred to as "ONE of the archangels" so we know there is more than one.
Michael is mentioned 3 times in the Bible.
Gabriel is mentioned 7 times and while not called an archangel directly does state, "I stand in the presence of God"
The devil, lucifer, satan is never called an archangel but, as you know is mentioned more than 7 times and God said he was originally the best of the best created angel.
Many people believe Gabriel to be an archangel because he is oft pictured as blowing a trumpet. In revelation, 7 angels blow 7 trumpets. However, Archangel only has the meaning of the "first of the angel kind" so we know that there is more than one but only Michael is actually named "archangel." Since there is more than one, it is assumed the other named angels were also archangels.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 31, 2012, 10:07:32 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 31, 2012, 05:00:10 PM
Here is what the Concordant says.
"19 Or are you not aware that your body is a temple of the holy spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own?"
Sounds like it is saying, "the Holy Spirit WHICH YOU HAVE FROM GOD".
The KJ also says this.
My understanding is, the Holy Spirit is a power that God uses which does come from him as everything comes from him doesn't it? I don't see it as being God himself but a power of God. Jesus is not God the Father but he said he came from God and of course he had to because everything came from God.
CHB
I like your speak, it is sound :HeartThrob: I have been given to understand the Holy Spirit as the very ENERGY of the Father God; it's how He gets things done.
Amen!!! This is how I see it also.
CHB
Quote from: sheila on October 31, 2012, 10:23:03 PM
OK MICAH............WOULD YOU CALL JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH?
THE ARK OF THE COVENANT[NOTE FIRST COVENANT WITH TABLETSOF TESTIMONY[WORD OF GOD] OF LAW]
LOOK! THE ARK OF THE COVENANT WAS SEEN WITHIN HISTEMPLE IN HEAVEN-YOU DO NOT
THINK THAT IS MOSES ARK DO YOU?
WHO CAME AN ANNOUNCED TO MARY THAT SHE WOULD CONCEIVE A CHILD BY THE HOLY
SPIRIT? GABRIEL. HE HAD RESPONSIBILITIES OF SERVICE TO HEAVEN REGARDING THE
TRUE ARK OF THE COVENANT,EVEN JESUS CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH
THAT MAKES HIM AN ARK ANGEL.
LOOK AT THE SEVEN STARS IN HIS HAND ANGELS..THAT MAKES THEM ARK-ANGELS TOO..
WHAT WAS ESTABLISH ON EARTH IS A PATTERN OF WHAT IS IN HEAVEN...LOOK AT 12 GATES/ANGELS
THAT ARE AS PEARLS OF HOLY CITY. THERE ARE TWELVE ARCHANGELS IN HEAVEN...
FOR THIS REASON JACOB HAD TWELVE SONS..JESUS HAD 12 APOSTLE'S
For me, if words about things are not in the Bible then I don't use those words about things in my witness. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on October 31, 2012, 10:43:13 PM
LET EVERY MATTER BE ESTABLISH AT THE WORD OF TWO OR THREE WITTNESS....
JESUS SAID THE FATHER TESTIFIES ALSO..SO IF YOU SEE GOD SAY IT IN THE SCRIPTURES JESUS SAY
IT AND THE HOLY SPIRIT SAY IT..YOU KNOW IT IS SOUND.
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
THERE WE GO....... SO THE HOLY SPIRIT SERVES AS A WITTNESS TO THE TRUTH[3 IN HEAVEN]
AND WE HAVE 3 ON EARTH ALSO[PATTERN]
THE SPIRIT OPERATIVE IN ELIJAH..THAT JESUS SAID HAD COME IN JOHN THE BAPTIST. JOHN TESTIFIED TO
THE LAMB COME TO TAKE AWAY ALL THE SIN OF THE WORLD
AND WOULD COME AGAIN AS JESUS STATED....AND JOHN THE BELOVED DISCIPLE RECEIVED AS THE
REVELATION OF CHRIST.
MICAH...GOD MADE ABRAHAM THE FATHER OF MANY NATIONS......BOTH JACOB AND ISHMAEL
HAS 12 SONS. ISREAL IS MY FIRSTBORN SON[TESTIMONY OF GOD] 12 SONS IN iSREAL/TRIBES
JESUS WITTNESS....CALLED 12 DISCIPLES GAVE POWER AND AUTHORITY]
HOLY SPIRIT TESTIMONY REV 1200 SEALED OUT OF TRIBES OF ISREAL12 PEARLS ANGELS AT GATES
FURTHER PATTERN OF HEAVENS ARRANGEMENT SHADOWED ON EARTH...ARE
SEVEN CHOSEN OF HOLY SPIRIT TO FEED WIDOWS.....AND SEVEN JUDGEMENT ANGELS/HEAVEN
THESE WORDS ABOUT THESE THINGS ARE IN THE BIBLE...HERE YOU HAVE GOD,JESUS
AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AS WITTNESS
JESUS SAID TO 'I HAVE MORE THAN 12 LEGION OF ANGELS AT MY DISPOSAL]
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 31, 2012, 11:11:12 PM
Micah said, "WHERE in the Bible is Gabriel called or refered to as an Archangel????
Gabriel is not named directly as an archangel but, there were only three angels named in the bible. Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel. Michael is mentioned as an archangel and referred to as "ONE of the archangels" so we know there is more than one.
Michael is mentioned 3 times in the Bible.
Gabriel is mentioned 7 times and while not called an archangel directly does state, "I stand in the presence of God"
The devil, lucifer, satan is never called an archangel but, as you know is mentioned more than 7 times and God said he was originally the best of the best created angel.
Many people believe Gabriel to be an archangel because he is oft pictured as blowing a trumpet. In revelation, 7 angels blow 7 trumpets. However, Archangel only has the meaning of the "first of the angel kind" so we know that there is more than one but only Michael is actually named "archangel." Since there is more than one, it is assumed the other named angels were also archangels.
Would you please fill me in on the above? My Bible is lacking this information :dontknow: Lucifer an angel? Lucifer mentioned 7 times? Just because religion and theology cause "Many people believe Gabriel to be an archangel...." DON'T make it so. Many people believe when they die they go to heaven or hell then, but that at so.
Quote from: sheila on October 31, 2012, 11:26:48 PM
THERE WE GO....... SO THE HOLY SPIRIT SERVES AS A WITTNESS TO THE TRUTH[3 IN HEAVEN]
AND WE HAVE 3 ON EARTH ALSO[PATTERN]
THE SPIRIT OPERATIVE IN ELIJAH..THAT JESUS SAID HAD COME IN JOHN THE BAPTIST. JOHN TESTIFIED TO
THE LAMB COME TO TAKE AWAY ALL THE SIN OF THE WORLD
AND WOULD COME AGAIN AS JESUS STATED....AND JOHN THE BELOVED DISCIPLE RECEIVED AS THE
REVELATION OF CHRIST.
MICAH...GOD MADE ABRAHAM THE FATHER OF MANY NATIONS......BOTH JACOB AND ISHMAEL
HAS 12 SONS. ISREAL IS MY FIRSTBORN SON[TESTIMONY OF GOD] 12 SONS IN iSREAL/TRIBES
JESUS WITTNESS....CALLED 12 DISCIPLES GAVE POWER AND AUTHORITY]
HOLY SPIRIT TESTIMONY REV 1200 SEALED OUT OF TRIBES OF ISREAL12 PEARLS ANGELS AT GATES
FURTHER PATTERN OF HEAVENS ARRANGEMENT SHADOWED ON EARTH...ARE
SEVEN CHOSEN OF HOLY SPIRIT TO FEED WIDOWS.....AND SEVEN JUDGEMENT ANGELS/HEAVEN
THESE WORDS ABOUT THESE THINGS ARE IN THE BIBLE...HERE YOU HAVE GOD,JESUS
AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AS WITTNESS
JESUS SAID TO 'I HAVE MORE THAN 12 LEGION OF ANGELS AT MY DISPOSAL]
Did you find the one about Gabriel being an archangel? I missed it
THE FAITH OF THE CENTURION MT 8;9
WHEN JESUS ENTERED cAPERNAUM A CENTURION CAME TO HIM,ASKING FOR HELP
LORD,HE SAID, MY SERVANT LIES AT HOME PARALYZED AND IN TERRIBLE SUFFERING
JESUS SAID TO HIM,IWILL GOANDHEALHIM. THE CENTURION REPLIED,LORD,I DO NOT
DESERVE TO HAVE YOU COME UNDER MY ROOF. BUT JUST SAY THE WORD,AND MY SERVANT
WILL BE HEALED.
FOR I MYSELF AM A MAN UNDER AUTHORITY[LIKE JESUS UNDER FATHER], WITH SOLDIERS UNDER ME
I TELL THIS ONE,GO AND HE GOES; AND THAT ONE COME,AND HE COMES, I SAY TO MY SERVANT
DO THIS AND HE DOES IT.[WHAT IF YOU SEE THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN ASCENDING AND DESCENDING
ON THE SON OF MAN]
WHAT POWER DO YOU THINK JESUS SENT FORTH TO HEAL THE CENTURIONS CENTURION...
A HOLY SPIRIT..ONE OF GOD'S FAITHFU LANGELS. LOOKING FORWARD TOTHE DAY WHEN HE RETURNS
IN THE POWER AND GLORY OF THE FATHER WITH ALL THE HEAVENLY HOSTS.!!
WHEN JESUS HEARD THIS HE WAS ASTONISHED AND SAID TO THOSE FOLLOWING HIM,
I TELL YOU THE TRUTH,I HAVE NOT FOUND ANYONE IN ISREAL WITH SUCH GREAT FAITH
I SAY TO YOU MANY WILL COME FROM THE EAST AND WEST AND WILL TAKE THEIR PLACES
AT THE FEAST WITH ABRAHAM,ISAAC AND JACOB IN THE KINGDOM[THREE] OFHEAVEN
BUT THE SUBJECTS OF THE KINGDOM WILL BE THROWN OUTSIDE INTO THE DARKNESS
WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.
Micah,
I sorta answered your question about Gabriel at the bottom of page 2 :gimmefive:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 01, 2012, 01:52:23 PM
Micah,
I sorta answered your question about Gabriel at the bottom of page 2 :gimmefive:
This is all I could find in my Bible 1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
This below is NO proof of anything: in fact it mostly supposition, speculation, and assumption; did you get any of that stuff from your Bible, or from "notes and commentary"?
"The devil, lucifer, satan is never called an archangel but, as you know is mentioned more than 7 times and God said he was originally the best of the best created angel.
Many people believe Gabriel to be an archangel because he is oft pictured as blowing a trumpet. In revelation, 7 angels blow 7 trumpets. However, Archangel only has the meaning of the "first of the angel kind" so we know that there is more than one but only Michael is actually named "archangel." Since there is more than one, it is assumed the other named angels were also archangels.
[/quote]
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The Lord descends. There is a shout(which may or may not be the Lords) there is the voice of an archangel (we don't know which one as it isn't named) and with the trump of God (It doesn't say who is actually blowing the trumpet but LEGEND has it that it is Gabriel. (There is even some hymn out there that asks Gabriel to come blow his horn) The dead in Christ (those that died before the return) shall rise first. So forget that teaching from preachers that say about the dead, "OH they are talking with Jesus right now or being held in his arms or "in heaven" - all are still in their graves Hell-the unseen; covered up) till Christ returns.
C'mon, even Jesus didn't go immediately to the Father when He died but was in "hell" preaching to those that had died in and before the flood. Of course, they hadn't risen yet either and Jesus was there PREACHING as if they had a chance yet with God and NOT there to say "Nanny-nanny nah-nah, you'll be tortured for-ev-er.
apostle- from to send..a person sent out on a special mission.[messenger/angel]
you have been with me from the beginning[Jesus to His disciples] I have lost none except
the son of perdition, in order that the scriptures be fulfilled
have I not chosen you 12,yet one of you is a devil? satan entered Judas
in the above we see God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven by Jesus Christ
thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven
i am not writing these things to convince anyone..let him who hears what the spirit is saying 'hear'
Which has nothing to do with whether Gabriel was an archangel or not.
Truth is, we can't be sure as it is not specifically mentioned.
Quotei am not writing these things to convince anyone..let him who hears what the spirit is saying 'hear'
:cloud9: :HeartThrob: