It reads, "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," 13, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
These two verses, at face value seem to contradict each other in their message. One verse seems to say we need to work for our own salvation with great fear of what may happen if we don't and the next one seems to tell us it is God who cuases us to want to please Him and the One who does the works through us..I believe we are all Gods work..but Im having trouble with verse 12. I looked up the word for fear in Strongs and it does give the definition of our word fear..as being afraid extra. I aslo looked it up in many translations and all I saw in all the translations was the same messages. working for our own salvation/ all Gods work.
G'day Caffus;
Definitions are indeed necessary/useful to comprehend.
Looking at the interlinear makes a good contribution for me.
Phil 2;12,13 " So my friends, just as you have obeyed not only in my presence, but even more in my absence,
continue [realize in practice] to work out [display, bring about as a result] your salvation with fear [AWE]
and trembling [agitation of mind, reverence,],
FOR IT IS GOD WHO IS AT WORK IN YOU, both to will [ to exercise the will properly by an unimpassioned operation]
and to work [ to put into operation, to be active] on behalf [ for the realisation of] of His good pleasure [ purpose,
intention].
Fear - astonishment, amazement, reverential fear, awe, respect, trembling concern, terror
Which one does one pick?
I.M.O if there is the fear, or dread, placed there then God is indeed a terrorist, bringing salvation to being to literally scare us to submission.
But if fear is awe, astonishment, reverential fear, then there is a secure position of admiration for what God has done for us and the result of what Christ has achieved for us.
Ergo - "continue to have an incredible awe and respect for such a great salvation because God is bringing about the realisation of just what He has done for us."
I find an interesting word play between "work out" and "works in"--which I hadn't noticed until the original question was posted.
In the traditional church, they end up using this verse to "backload" the Gospel. That means, Jesus saves, BUT... and this is where they add in things you do to save your soul or keep your soul saved. They seem to have no concept of rewards for being a faithful servant.
As I understand it, Paul is encouraging this church of Brotherly Love to continue in the love (for the benefit of others) they expressed while he was with them. This labor of love isn't to "stay saved," but a heart lived out in others becoming saved.
The word work is ergon in the Greek, and as I understand it, it is the employment of something; putting the tools given to use, so to speak. They have been given hope, grace, faith and love because of Christ Jesus. God worked "in" them that they may employ out what they have received and be a conduit of His eternal (right use of eternal) lovingkindness.
Fear, as I looked it up, finding the same word used by Jesus, was respect--give respect to whom respect is due. I didn't know what to do with "trembling". So I am glad for the other reply. I think it references a "trembling" concern for the well being of others.
I'm new to the topic of U.S., so I don't know how all this would fit into that as at this point, I can see and have no issue with Universal Reconciliation, but not sure if it is the same as saying Universal Salvation.
In Genesis when God warned Adam and Eve about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the Hebrew says "die die" --not die once, but twice it seems. And it appears it is the Second Death we seek to be saved from, and for which Christ was provided. Still working on that. And so, if Jesus "saves" us from the Second Death, but others experience that age-long chastisement, then they have not been saved, though in the end redeemed.
Not sure. As I said, still working on the bones of the matter.
But either way, don't let Philippians freak you out. It's a mega guilt trip verse in mainstream Christianity.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
:iagree:
Excellent :o)
Quote from: Caffus on July 05, 2016, 11:08:45 PM
It reads, "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling," 13, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
These two verses, at face value seem to contradict each other in their message. One verse seems to say we need to work for our own salvation with great fear of what may happen if we don't and the next one seems to tell us it is God who cuases us to want to please Him and the One who does the works through us..I believe we are all Gods work..but Im having trouble with verse 12. I looked up the word for fear in Strongs and it does give the definition of our word fear..as being afraid extra. I aslo looked it up in many translations and all I saw in all the translations was the same messages. working for our own salvation/ all Gods work.
It doesn't mean to work FOR your salvation. The Greek meaning for "out" means "outwardly." It's saying "work outwardly your salvation." Salvation (sozo, meaning to be healed or made whole) begins inwardly with the salvation from the sin in our flesh through the free gift of the Spirit, killing the the motions of sin, and that deliverance can be worked outwardly in how we respond to the inner salvation. Ultimately it is God doing the work though. Good works like prophecy and healing and miracles were God's work and they were the vessels through which that work was done, beginning with salvation from the old man, aid baptism into the new man.
"Work outwardly your salvation" ..thanks! That makes sense.. And other good posts here too.. Outwardly with awe and in all seriousness too.. But not fear.. Because "perfect love casts out all fear".
:iagree:
Thank you, ...nothing freaks me out anymore, thank God. I just found it interesting that those verses, right next to each other seem to contradict each other in face value meaning. When I find something like this I think it is often a good idea to ask other believers. I do believe many translations convey messages to us today that were not the original intention of the passage.
I wanted to use the verse Philippians 2:13 in a project I'm working on...I believe the verse teaches we are Gods work, even the fact that we will to please Him is His doing. But, I always read in context and although there are scriptures that support what Im trying to get at in other places, I was unsure how to explain the meaning of verse 12. I know, I have heard ET and works believers quoting verse 12 many times. I know it can't mean we have to work for our own salvation..because then we would be our own savoir and none can save themselves. I also know we are not supposed to fear our Father, but reverence Him with awe.
Quote from: Caffus on July 06, 2016, 05:50:46 AM
I also know we are not supposed to fear our Father, but reverence Him with awe.
Amen!
God is greater than our earthly dad.
Christ talks about that when pointing out that God loves us more than them.
Soooo, do we come crawling in fear to our dad, or just come up and converse with him, knowing he listens?
God's love is greater than our current ability to fathom; [Eph 3;18-21]
Perfect love casts out ALL fears.
:iagree: :HeartThrob: