Matt 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
That's a very problematic/disputed translation because the word "daily" is translated from the Greek word "epiousios" which has an unknown meaning.
Origen searched everywhere but couldn't find the word in any Greek literature. The word isn't found outside the NT. In the NT we find it only in Mat 6:11 and Luke 11:3. But they are exactly the same verse and context so it's of no use for learning what the word means.
Scholars forwarded several possible meanings throughout time.
Epiousios is a reference to time. It can be split in 2 main interpretations.
a] Today
Receive the bread we need today. By far the most widely used translation.
Matt 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
b] Tomorrow.
Give us today tomorrows bread. That's a reference to the Sabbath manna that fell out of the sky on friday.
It is/was also named the "Messianic banquet of the end times."
Matt 6:11 Give us now today tomorrow's bread.
Epiousios is a reference to quantity. It can be split in 2 main interpretations.
a] Just enough not to starve
Matt 6:11 Give us this day our enough bread to survive.
b] All we need.Starvation was always lurking around the corner for the common man in ancient times. They felt great security/luxery if they went to bed knowing they had some bread left for the next day.
Matt 6:11 Give us this day today's and tomorrow's bread.
So we started with not knowing what the word means and ended with 4 views. I must admit the two 'b options' sound very nice, but they are just as much guesswork as the other options.
None of the above proves something went wrong with the Scriptures. Of course, it's a possibility; but in this case it seems the word meaning just faded away in history. If you accept other languages as inspired enough, there may be a solution found in an ancient Syriac translation. Syriac, Hebrew and Aramiac are sister languages with many words meaning exactly the same.
Mat 6:11 Lahmo ameno diyomo hab lan
Lahmo means bread.
Amenno is Syriac adjective with the same root word as amen. It carries the meaning of something that never runs out, never ending, etc
Matt 6:11 Give us this day bread that never runs out.
Imo that can have two meanings. The verse is a request to never have to worry about food in one's entire life. The "quantity b" option taken to its extreme.
Jesus Himself is everlasting bread too.
Make your choice :Peace2:
hey ww...I had heard about that possibility before,a while back. we live by 'every word' that comes from His mouth......
communion/bread He is our daily sustenence...speaks of the relationship/dependance of man on God for life..
tomorrow's bread today..could mean.........I tell you these things before they occurr so that you may know that I am He........
...from the prophetic utterances...that lead and guide us...prepare us for what is coming..to meet the challenges that lie ahead
each day in our walk. for instance..the prophecy of a coming famine upon the land..that Christians started preparing for
ahead of time..and took up collections for releif ahead of time..and the Joseph in Egypt account. as well as Father's assurance
to supply enough bread afore time..for the sabbath rest of lands on the seventh year..and Jubilee.........
I no lnger call you servants,because aa servant does not know his master's buisiness...speaks of intimacy of rellationship
informed...we are not in the dark,so to speak..caught unawares......blown about.....He said 'I will not leave you as orphans"
and He does not leave us bereft..or as sheep without a shepherd.
we here,know the 'buisiness' of Our Father..that He is reconciling all men. so we are not without hope..as et people are
at the seeming 'loss' of most of mankind...so that we may not 'sorrow' as they. He who hopess in the Lord will not be
disappointed.
Quote from: sheila on March 29, 2014, 02:49:47 PM
hey ww...I had heard about that possibility before,a while back. we live by 'every word' that comes from His mouth......
That's very well possible because it's part of a two millenia long debate. I don't even dare to assume I'm presenting something entirely new.
I always had the
unproven thought "you shall not live on bread alone" is a wordplay (is that a correct English word?).
On the most simple level it seems to say you need both earthly and spiritual food in your life. The wordplay, I think, is that the statement on it's most simple level is wrong. To Live a person needs
only bread. The person need both ordinary bread and Jesus-bread in his life.
The most 'new' part of my post is that what is prayed for isn't food that lasts a day but everlasting. Jesus is everlasting food
I've been using the Lord's Prayer in my prayers lately. It is spiritual. I really don't focus on food. Food has been always given. "Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added". The kingdom of God is a spiritual reality and the Bread is our food for the daily spiritual walk.
Kingship and bread and the reality of Jesus Christ. It is enough for the day.............every day.
.
Kingship and bread and reality of Jesus Christ. It is enough for the day every day.
and that is the 'Promise" of the true bread from heaven..today tomorrow..everyday..without end.
Quote from: sheila on March 30, 2014, 07:50:52 PM
Kingship and bread and reality of Jesus Christ. It is enough for the day every day.
and that is the 'Promise" of the true bread from heaven..today tomorrow..everyday..without end.
What does without an end mean to you?
a] Get a loaf of bread every day.
b] Get just one loaf of bread that lasts forever?
I think the verse is about option b.
Receive everlasting loaf Jesus today. Just once. That's all it takes. Just like God only gives everlasting life once. If He would give it daily or somehow renew it, it wouldn't be everlasting.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 30, 2014, 08:05:42 PM
a] Get a loaf of bread every day.
b] Get just one loaf of bread that lasts forever?
I think the verse is about option b.
Receive everlasting loaf Jesus today. Just once. That's all it takes. Just like God only gives everlasting life once. If He would give it daily or somehow renew it, it wouldn't be everlasting.
When they were waiting for the mama from heaven it happened whether they believed or not.
They surly got accustomed to knowing the bread would be there tomorrow.
I'm accustomed to knowing that the bread will be there tomorrow.
I like the dimension that you have shown. I've never really thought of it that way before.
We don't worry about tomorrow because we know that the same one who has taken care of today will take care of tomorrow.
It is a rich part of faith..........too much bread will make you fat!
.
:cloud9: My :2c:....daily bread, daily communion with Him by which we walk and have His life.
The bread/letter eaten in the light/understanding given by the wine/Spirit, is true communion.
Same pattern as the church foundation being built on the apostles/letter and the prophets/Spirit, and of the two cherubim on the ark of the covenant.
The apostle/cherubim and the prophet/cherubim, commune together and He appears in the glory cloud in the midst of them, ie. He said to meet Him in THIS cloud.
There are those that cling to the letter, there are those that ascend in the Spirit, but it takes BOTH of them to meet in the cloud in agreement. Come, let us reason together...... :friendstu:
The hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth because the Father seeks such to worship Him.
It is interesting that this thread reminds me of the upcoming Passover season. Given to the nation of Israel and kept by some Christian groups. Many yet will need to recognize eventually that it is of the spirit and not of the letter even though reading Paul we see a desire by some through this eon to Keep the passover physically. He may have done so for a while since he did become one to win more to Christ. Am I off base?
1Co_9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
I think you are right on. The types and shadows that fore told the sacrifice of the Lamb have been mistaken as the substance by some, and they did not receive the revelation hidden in the ceremony..
Others keep the Passover tradition with the sacrifice of the Lamb in mind, some out of a mixture of legalism, some simply out of the enjoyment of expressing their culture or a sense of spiritual heritage.
Others do not keep it at all because they realize that that which was foreshadowed in the letter has been fulfilled in the spirit and they feel no unction to keep the tradition, and are free from it.
Right on. How true. Although I sometime wonder if the enjoyment of expressing their culture or a sense of spiritual heritage is just simply a degree of self righteousness that has been engrained by prior teachings.
:sigh:
:cloud9: Those are all reasons, but there are others. Those that were cut off for our sake, are our brothers and we witness to them. Also, there is so much love for Him you willingly and joyfully participate in revealing Him in all of it, that HE, not man, established. He is after all, the JEWISH Messiah who also reached out to the gentiles next.
The "Last Supper" was a Passover Seder just like what I will be celebrating, that He commanded them to do often in remembrance of Him. Passover was one of 3 feasts He commanded them to observe FOREVER. Forever doesn't have a stopping point.
The Jewish people started coming in to belief in Christ as their Messiah about 20 years ago, assisted in part by Gentile churches revealing Christ in the keeping of the feasts. Prior to that, some of Jewish people I know told me that were forbidden to even read a NT. If you can't read one, how much more does acting out Christ in the feasts and Shabbat witness? It's about being all things to all people, including the Jews. Blessings....
My thankfulness every morning and my wonderment of why every night, a breath in the morning and a breath still, at night...my daily bread. :dsunny: He is Risen.
:cloud9: Amen, He is risen! :banana: :dsunny: :iagree:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 31, 2014, 03:58:18 AM
:cloud9: Those are all reasons, but there are others. Those that were cut off for our sake, are our brothers and we witness to them. Also, there is so much love for Him you willingly and joyfully participate in revealing Him in all of it, that HE, not man, established. He is after all, the JEWISH Messiah who also reached out to the gentiles next.
The "Last Supper" was a Passover Seder just like what I will be celebrating, that He commanded them to do often in remembrance of Him. Passover was one of 3 feasts He commanded them to observe FOREVER. Forever doesn't have a stopping point.
The Jewish people started coming in to belief in Christ as their Messiah about 20 years ago, assisted in part by Gentile churches revealing Christ in the keeping of the feasts. Prior to that, some of Jewish people I know told me that were forbidden to even read a NT. If you can't read one, how much more does acting out Christ in the feasts and Shabbat witness? It's about being all things to all people, including the Jews. Blessings....
Forever has a stopping point when we want it too, and no stopping point when we don't want it to I guess. Actually the word was olam, which is not really "forever"- but I would not argue the point for a Messianic Hebrew who believes that way. I think for a true Jewish believer keeping these feasts and sabbaths makes some sense. For a Gentile converted to Christ like me, I don't see any need to keep it, nor do I see any injunction from the word that would lead me to. As Paul says, "One man regards a day as holy, another man regards all days as holy. Let each one keep it as unto the Lord".
So much freedom in Christ to do as we see fit- as long as we do not try to place a yoke upon anyone else in regards to practices or doctrines or traditions that are not clearly portrayed in the word, like baptism or communion- which are clearly portrayed as appointed for this age- In my opinion, anyway :o)
:cloud9: Actually, I agree with you, on most of what you said. Being led by His Spirit, whether to do or not to do, is between you and the Lord on this as in all things. That is true liberty, not in the outward manifestation of ANYTHING, be it keeping the feasts or baptisms, or fasts, or not to fast, ect. One common denominator is to seek His perfect will in all things.
As an example of what I'm saying here, decades ago, my little group was all fasting weekly. A new convert came in, and she was seeking Him about fasting with us. Thing was, this girl HATED TO EAT. She always said if there was a pill with everything she needed in it she could take and not be malnourished from it, she would happily do it. Nothing about eating appealed to her. So what fast did He tell her to do? You probably guessed it. She had to eat on our fast day.
Fulfilling the scripture that OBEDIENCE is better than sacrifice, is what being led of the Spirit is all about, and why we are not to JUDGE another's walk, because unless the SPIRIT has specifically told us something personal pertaining to that person's heart walk, we have no way of knowing BY THE OUTWARD.
If you didn't know what the Spirit had told her, and you came in and judged by the outward, she looked totally rebellious, compared to what the rest of us were doing. But ALL were being obedient to what He told each one to do, and in that, there was true liberty. Doesn't it just give you joy? :banana: Blessings....
Ahhh, I" desire obedience rather than sacrifice"- this is close to the core of what we are discussing I believe, and speaks to my heart volumes beyond what I "know" :o)
:cloud9: Amen.....walking in the Spirit.....nothing like it. Surpasses all WE can think or do. :thumbsup:
Today, if you hear His voice.....Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying.....Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God......Give us this day our daily bread.
Today I was meditating upon the manna that fell for the Israelites in the wilderness. They had to gather it daily, before it turned to worms.
Gehenna is outside the city, were the fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not.
We cannot live off of "old words". They have to "living and active"....Behold I am making all things new.
The scribe in the kingdom brings forth from his treasure things both new and old. Written words made new by the breath of God, oracles, God-breathed.
What is He saying to me "Today"?
I desire obedience rather than sacrifice.
The towers and strongholds built of letters that kill have no life in them. They do not feed or give refuge to the weary.
"He has given me the tongue of the discipled that I might speak a word in season to the weary ones."
"All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2014, 04:02:16 AM
Today, if you hear His voice.....Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying.....Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God......Give us this day our daily bread.
Today I was meditating upon the manna that fell for the Israelites in the wilderness. They had to gather it daily, before it turned to worms.
Gehenna is outside the city, were the fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not.
We cannot live off of "old words". They have to "living and active"....Behold I am making all things new.
The scribe in the kingdom brings forth from his treasure things both new and old. Written words made new by the breath of God, oracles, God-breathed.
What is He saying to me "Today"?
I desire obedience rather than sacrifice.
The towers and strongholds built of letters that kill have no life in them. They do not feed or give refuge to the weary.
"He has given me the tongue of the discipled that I might speak a word in season to the weary ones."
"All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."
:cloud9: AMEN. And as I read this, I just got some fresh manna for my day. :banana:
When we take ourselves outside the city/New Jerusalem that is from above (the assembly of the firstborn = Christ in the many) to NOT walk in the proceeding word of life TODAY that comes from the Father's mouth (to walk in THAT, is to walk in the Spirit, because CHRIST IS THAT SPIRIT), then WE cast ourselves into Gehenna where the worm dieth not.
The worm dieth not BECAUSE THERE'S STILL FLESH TO COMSUME. So with whatever He is dealing with, as we lay down the LIFE OF THAT THING, the worms do their perfect work of consuming the flesh of it (= where we were YESTERDAY), and then we are CLEAN (because contamination with a dead body meant you were ceremonially unclean) and can "enter the city" again.
Can you see this? The carnal fear mongering minds of men made Gehenna a horror and an abomination, but He has never left us nor forsaken us, and thru it He does a perfect work of circumcising the flesh off of HIS Spirit.
Now, believe my witness or not, but this is why I have known for some 15 years that there IS a type of purgatory experience, because He took me with His Spirit in front of 5 witnesses, down into the bowels of the earth, into my mother's "purgatory", for the purpose of SETTING HER SOUL FREE. His arm is not so short it cannot reach into the depths of the stony hearts of men, and PULL THEM OUT. And because we know this, this is why we are not as those that have no hope (because they don't know Him and the power of His saving grace).
On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest prepared himself, and walked into the presence of God via grace and obtained mercy and walked out thru all the other courts, INCLUDING the outer court of darkness, and gave it to the people. And He has not stopped walking, He is a High Priest FOREVER after the order of Melchisedek! And He is raising up a priesthood JUST LIKE HIM, for SAVIORS (plural) shall arise on Mt. Zion.
How wonderful is His mercy, fresh every morning (for each new DAYSTAR to rise up out of the darkness (ignorance of death). Blessings.....:banana: :banana: :banana:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 02, 2014, 09:32:11 PM
then WE cast ourselves into Gehenna where the worm dieth not.
The worm dieth not BECAUSE THERE'S STILL FLESH TO COMSUME. So with whatever He is dealing with, as we lay down the LIFE OF THAT THING, the worms do their perfect work of consuming the flesh of it (= where we were YESTERDAY), and then we are CLEAN (because contamination with a dead body meant you were ceremonially unclean) and can "enter the city" again.
Can you see this? The carnal fear mongering minds of men made Gehenna a horror and an abomination, but He has never left us nor forsaken us,
I agree except with the plural worms. I think there is just one worm and Job 'says' this worm used to dye robes crimson, is Jesus.
BTW a worm. Not a maggot as some Bibles have it translated.
:2c:
Obadiah 1:21 The deliverers shall ascend Mt Zion to judge the mountain of Esau and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.
Rev 21:7 He that overcomes will inherit all things and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Eph 2:6,7 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Obadiah aligns with the words of John the Baptist in Luke 3;9 And now the axe is laid to the root of the trees and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire, as well as John 15, where Jesus says I am the vine, you are the branches. If anyone abides in me, and I in them, they will bear much fruit, for without me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me, he will be cast forth as a branch and withered, then men gather them and throw them into the fire.
Ever been withered? :o)
In 1 Cor. 3:15, where it talks about wood hay and stubble and our works being tried by the fire/light of the Day, it says also, If any mans work that he has built remains(thru fire) he shall receive reward. If any man's work is burned(consume by fire) he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved.
Then it says, "If any man defile/destroy the temple of God(speaking of false teaching and false motives), Him shall God destroy."
The word for destroy means "wither" as well as corrupt, ruin, destroy. God wither's and burns darkness/ bad fruit/ mixed motives with the fire of unapproachable light.
"to be tormented in the presence of God and His holy angels/messengers"
I think outer darkness(cast from the presence of God, falling out of the heavenly realms) withers, drying out the sap of the trees or branches that are to be cut off and gathered for the fire(kolassis as the sharper than any two edged sword prophetic word divides asunder and makes manifest the secrets of the heart).
All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do, and His eyes are as flames of fire.
"He makes his angels/messengers spirits, his ministers flames of fire" Psalm 104:4
Know ye not that ye shall judge angels?
And the courts sat and the books were opened.
Hmmm, the word of God is just so awesome and beautiful.
:cloud9: And all the people said, AMEN :thumbsup:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 02, 2014, 11:29:50 PM
Hmmm, the word of God is just so awesome and beautiful.
Wow.
On another forum my sig line is "We need a good fire!"
You all have one going here!
:flamebreath:
beautiful thread....I see merit in ww worm..and Becca's maggot anaolgys..though seeming at opposition..their pov
is like both the right and left hand..that holds truth[often the right hand knows not what the left is doing]
Isaaih 14,11,12.......speaks of him that fell.....and a bed of maggots await him[corruptionof all men's flesh/image of corrupt one]
and we all fall many times...as we learn to walk in the spirit.
But He has hold of our hands to lift us up in the spirit again that we may overcome and appear in His image..
I have the destinct image of a Father holding the hand of His child as He learns to walk[ in the way]
Quote from: sheila on April 03, 2014, 07:48:40 PM
beautiful thread....I see merit in ww worm..and Becca's maggot anaolgys..though seeming at opposition..their pov
Not at all Sheila. If I correctly understood Bex' post, my post is just adding to hers. Not opposing it. Ok, on minor point like worm or worms.
Maggots only eat dead flesh. They have/had medical use.
Mark 9:44 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
Note: This verse is not in Rotherham.
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
The question is what type of worm is there in Gehenna?
The worm from Mark 9:44
σκώληξ
skōlēx
Thayer Definition:
1) a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: of uncertain derivation
Citing in TDNT: 7:452, 1054
Greek LXX version of Job uses skōlēx
So the Gehenna worm is the type Job compared with Jesus.
Read the article below and then say wow :dsunny:
The undying worm
To the light bed-time reader, the Gospel of Mark, apparently, provides us with a little more information about Gehenna which is not mentioned elsewhere, although beneath the surface, rather than support the view of a literal Hell, it actually undermines it:
'...And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast onto hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good. But if the salt have lost its saltiness, wherewith shall ye season it. Have salt in yourselves and have peace one with another...' (Mark 9:43-50)
Aside of the contingent hypothesis, the term "enter into life," in these verses, surprisingly, has nothing to do with entering into the after-life, or heaven. The word "enter" is rendered from the Greek word eisercomai eiserchomai, which means to come in, or go out, but can also be used metaphorically to denote entrance into a condition, or state. These words, therefore, refer to vitality, and entering into fullness of life whilst in this world, rather than the next. To be maimed, of course, is to be wounded, injured, or hurt, be that physically, or psychologically, and the result of removing a stumbling block from some individuals would have exactly that effect - giving up sin hurts, in other words.
The term "...Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched..." is repeated three times in this verse, thus, among other things, drawing the attention of the reader to its importance. The "worm" in this verse is rendered from the Greek word skwlhx skolex, the name given to a specific type of worm, which feeds on decaying matter - a detritivore in fact. The equivalent Hebrew word is hmr rimmah, a worm, or maggot, also associated with decay. Now the writer of Mark's Gospel would have us believe that Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament book of Isaiah, but the problem with this, is that the worm referred to in Isaiah is not associated with decay at all - quite the opposite, in fact:
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh (Isaiah 66:22-24).
The Hebrew word used here is elwt towla, meaning specifically coccus ilicis, the female worm, or grub, from which, the much sort after, scarlet dye was extracted. In the Old Testament the word is nearly always translated as "scarlet," the colour predominantly associated with wealth and importance, etc., and, not surprisingly, a colour which was a prominent feature of the Tabernacle. Perhaps the most important occurrence of this word, though, is in the book of Job, where it is used in reference to, none other than, "the son of man" himself:
How much less man, that is a worm? [rimmah] and the son of man, which is a worm? [towla]. (Job 25:6)
Job makes it clear that there is a distinction to be made between these two worms, as one is associated with death and decay [rimmah], the other with royalty, the "son of man" [towla]. The life-cycle of the towla was, then, evidently, symbolic of the shedding of Jesus' blood on the cross - or on a tree, as Acts would have it - and, subsequently, the resurrection and the eternal life which was to follow. That this is the sense in which towla is used in Isaiah 66 is evident from other words used in verse 24; the word "abhorring," for example, comes from the Hebrew word Nward dera'own, which can also be translated as aversion or contempt, and to hold someone in contempt is, of course, to despise them. That Jesus was "a reproach of men, and despised of the people" is attested to in Psalm 22:6, where again, we find the word towla translated as worm. The word "unto" is rendered from the Hebrew word la 'el which can also mean by, and the word "flesh" is rendered from the Hebrew word rsb basar which can also mean mankind.
It should also be remembered that the latter portion of the book of Isaiah was, for the most part, written to reassure those in Jerusalem, that God was going to fulfil his promises to the faithful. The fate of the rebellious, however, is also described, especially in chapter 65:1-16, for example, and it is this fate which is aptly summed up in chapter 66:24, in the term "...the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me." This is evident from the fact that the word transgressed is rendered from the Hebrew word evp pasha, which also means to rebel.
What is more important, though, is that the "worm" and the "fire" mentioned here, does not refer to those who have "transgressed" or rebelled against the Lord. The worm here is towla, which was not a symbol of death or decay, but rather, a symbol of wealth, status, and eternal life through the son of man. So it is the faithful who shall "go forth" and it is "their seed" and "their name," that will remain, just as the "new heavens and the new earth," but it is they, also, who will be "despised by all mankind," just as Jesus was. It is their fire which shall not be quenched, not the fire of the carcasses of the rebellious.
It would appear then, that the writer of Mark, either did not know the real significance and symbolism of the undying worm when he constructed his gospel, or he simply could not find a Greek equivalent for it. In the latter case, it remains a mystery why he did not, then, transliterate the Hebrew towla, instead of using the Greek word skolex. That the writer of the Gospel of Mark completely misses the importance of the Old Testament symbology has proved to be totally misleading, for it presents the unwary reader with what appears to be just another allusion to Hell, when in fact, it is not.
Quote from: rosered on February 18, 2014, 02:28:40 AM
this always blessed me when I read it than and even now
since you guys brought this up , I thought to share it catapillar as a worm sometimes are food for birds of the air :eek: and yet God is merciful though Jesus Christ
worm H8438 - towla`
תּוֹלָע
Transliteration
towla`
Pronunciation
tō·lä' (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From יָלַע (H3216)
TWOT Reference
2516b
Outline of Biblical Usage
worm, scarlet stuff, crimson
worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'
scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet
the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"
worm, maggot
worm, grub
the worm "coccus ilicis"
"When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle.
As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted.
What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)"
(Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
same crimson stuff
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
I understand that ww..but the point I was trying to make was this.....as all men have bore the image of the corrupt one...so
shall all men bear the image of the incorruptible one.
when we 'get in the flesh" or fall from the spirit abode[our ]proper dwelling place] we exhibit the image of the corrupt one.
[dead/stink offerings.
bed of maggots...........no flesh boast..we all have bore the image of both[this body of death/corruption] have you become
weak.. like us? pomp brought down. etc.
Yes, we must bear the image of the corrupt one, and then must die to bear the image of Christ. I think that is what Mark 9:43-50 is talking about, because he says "everyone will be salted with fire." I used to think that Jesus was recommending that if our limbs "offend thee" they should be cut off and removed to be set on fire. But James 3:6 changed my thinking about that.
James 3:6 refers to the tongue as a fire, a world of iniquity, which is set on fire of Gehenna. So now, I believe that Christ is telling his disciples to cut off the offending limbs because they are on fire already (offending thee), and his point is to say that his disciples must be rid of all limbs that are beset by an offending fire, one that is a "world of iniquity."
Mark 9:43-50
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Gehenna fire.
One thing I can tell right away is that Gehenna fire is not the Kingdom of God, because Jesus is saying it's better to enter the kingdom of God half blinded than to be cast into Gehenna fire. Gehenna fire = something you want to avoid because it's better to enter the Kingdom of God.
I don't have much of a problem with the idea that Jesus could be the worm eating the flesh in Gehenna, though I don't believe that simply because Job refers to the son of man as a worm means that all instances of worm represent that. After all, God is compared to a fire, just as wickedness is compared to fire within the same Bible.
What I find most important is that the worm is eating the flesh. That is something I see to be a good thing. But I think there is a very good reason Jesus says it is better to enter the Kingdom rather than be cast into Gehenna: because while all God's judgments are ultimately good, they don't always feel good.
Example: God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.
Both these judgments bear good fruit, but it's much better to receive grace than to be resisted as the proud. I believe Gehenna fire is as removed from the wealth and prosperity of New Jerusalem (the Bride) as night is separated from day. I believe Gehenna fire is the wickedness of man which brings thirst to his soul for a better way, and I would encourage us all to avoid Gehenna fire as much as Christ cautioned against it, but that doesn't mean that it will not result in the ultimate dying to the flesh to bear the image of Christ. It worked for the Prodigal Son, after all.
:thumbsup:... Father teaches us through both positive and negative expierences.......ones a rougher road for sure.
:thumbsup:
Isaiah 63
17 Why, O Lord, do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You? Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage.
Isaiah 64
7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us
And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities. 8 But now, O Lord, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.
Isaiah 65
1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
8 Thus says the Lord, "As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, 'Do not destroy it, for there is benefit in it,' So I will act on behalf of My servants In order not to destroy all of them. 9 "I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, And an heir of My mountains from Judah; Even My chosen ones shall inherit it, And My servants will dwell there.
11 "But you who forsake the Lord, Who forget My holy mountain,
Who set a table for Fortune, And who fill cups with mixed wine for Destiny, 12 I will destine you for the sword, And all of you will bow down to the slaughter. Because I called, but you did not answer; I spoke, but you did not hear. And you did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."
Those who inherit the mountain (Zion), then forget it, will be cast outside the City, and into the valley (Gehenna) and are destined for the Sword to bow down to the slaughter. The Spirit and the Bride say "come, all ye who are athirst and drink of the water of life freely."
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Wormwood.
My son give attendance to my words, give ear to my understanding
That you may regard discretion and that your lips may keep knowledge
For the lips of a strange woman drip as the honeycomb and her mouth is smoother than oil
Bur her end is bitter as wormwood, sharper than a two edged sword
her feet go down to death and her steps take hold on hell
If you consider the path of her life, she is moveable(double minded man) you cannot know them(heart of man deceitul, who can know it?)
Hear me now oh you children, depart not from the words of my mouth(bread of life, hidden manna)
When the manna was not gathered promptly/daily it turned to worms
Worms eat the dead. Where the fire is not quenched and their worm dies no
Awake O sleeper and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you(Romans)
If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness
Every hidden thing will be brought to light.
Therefore I will feed them with wormwood and give them gall to drink for from the prophets of Jerusalem profaneness has gone out into all the land(Jer)
And the name of the star is Wormwood and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died of the waters because they became bitter(Rev)
Lest there should be anyone among you who turns away this day from the Lord your God to serve the Gods of these nations and a root should spring up among you that brings forth gall and wormwood.(Deut)
Beware lest a root of bitterness spring up among you by which many be defiled.
We wait for bread. We don't force feed anyone- we pray that they will receive manna from heaven.
Beware of Jezebel that false prophetess, who teaches my people to eat meats sacrificed to idols(strange food) and teaches my people to commit fornication(strange flesh)(Rev)
I am the way the truth and the life. I am the bread that comes down from heaven.
Where were the principalities disarmed? At the cross(Colossians). Where was the law contained in ordinances anulled? Nailed to a tree in the body of Christ. What is the bread of our communion? The body of Christ, broken for the salvation of the world. How do we enter in? A broken and a contrite heart oh God you will never reject. What are the sacrifices of God? A broken heart and a contrite spirit. Before whom? Before God and EVERYONE ELSE.
Forgive them Father they do not know what they are doing. True bread. Hidden manna.
Fukushima is wormwood. Power generated unnaturally produces wormwood and gall, defiling bitterness.
Beware when you bite and devour one another lest you devour one another.
Forgive one another.
Forbear one another.
Bear one another's burbens.
Forgive one another.
Bread of life. Hidden manna. Grace.
The japanese are afraid of losing face, so the spent rods being cooled with water to keep them from exploding if they should come out into the light and explode into radiation poisoning fire and smoke, brimstone if you would, so they are lieing to their people and to the world as the leaking cooling water is still running into the ocean and turnng it to wormwood.
Jezebel's lips dripped as the honeycomb but her steps led down to death.
"See how great a forest is set ablaze(planting of the Lord consumed) by such a small flame. The tongue is a fire and a world of iniquity; so is the tongue among our members, and it defiles the whole body.........If you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be arrogant and lie agaisnt the truth, this wisdom is not from above but is earthly sensual demonic, for where envying and strife is there is confusion and every evil work(wormwood). But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, easily entreated, full of mercy and good fruits(manna from heaven) and the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. "(James 3)
All things, light and dark, lead to the glory of God. If we can see it, if we have our senses exercised to know the difference between good and evil, flesh and spirit, we can live in the daily manna, the true bread, and avoid the honeycomb dripping words of death and bitterness and gall.
Come all you who are thirsty drink freely of the water of life.
Don't let anyone worm their way into your life with strange teachings and departing from the wisdom of God, the milk, the bread, the wine. Such as Jannes and Jambres, who led away silly women laden with sins and subverted whole households with their strange teachings, whom Paul, sitting in the heavenly counsel before angels and God and the spirits of righteous men made perfect(my opinion :o), delivered over to Satan for the destrution of the flesh.
I felt like this could have been posted in a few different active threads, but I felt it fit best here. Test all things, hold fast what is true. Peace brothers and sisters :o)
:iagree:
John 6
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Mark 9:44 and 46 are (possibly) spurious verses. :dontknow: And IF that be true then WW's posted article "The undying worm" is baseless. :2c:
:cloud9: You know I can actually see the "undying worm" part as two sides of the same coin. The "fire" only burns if there is flesh to consume, otherwise it only consumes the bondages.
The Word only burns if there is conviction of sin, otherwise the stone (letter) is smitten to release the water of the Spirit that sooths and heals.
Which way it "hits" depends on the "position" of the hearer. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 08, 2014, 05:51:18 PM
Mark 9:44 and 46 are (possibly) spurious verses. :dontknow: And IF that be true then WW's posted article "The undying worm" is baseless. :2c:
Spurious as in forged or added later?
Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2014, 12:47:27 AM
:cloud9: You know I can actually see the "undying worm" part as two sides of the same coin. The "fire" only burns if there is flesh to consume, otherwise it only consumes the bondages.
The Word only burns if there is conviction of sin, otherwise the stone (letter) is smitten to release the water of the Spirit that sooths and heals.
Which way it "hits" depends on the "position" of the hearer. My :2c: Blessings....
Fire represents the law. The law only corrects (=removes) wrongs. It also has a teaching component (all earth shall learn rightousness). That's why certain people won't be 'harmed by the fire'. Just like the wordly laws if you don't break them they don't harm you. Example: If you drive on the Interstate you are subject to a law on speeding. That law won't harm you with a speeding ticket if you don't speed. That's also why all the Fiery judgements are (vastly) different for everyone. TheLaw is acutually many "rules". One person gets corrected for blasphemy. The other one for theft. Etc.
(Grace has nothing to do with it. Grace never overrules the law)
I think it's "harmed of the second death." The Law brings death because when people try to follow it in a carnal state, sin increases and becomes more powerful. Sin is what brings death by the Law. The spirit on the other hand brings life. So those who walk by the spirit do no have to fear being harmed by death because they walk in life.
The speed limit is not what harms people. Crashing into another car is what harms people who disobey the speed limit. Sin (disobedience of the Law) is what brings death (a spiritual state of carnal mindedness). That's why I say that the Spirit brings life. Therefore, those who have the Spirit are not harmed of death.
If God uses the Law to punish people in the Day of the Lord, (ie stoning etc) then God is still counting men's sins against them. However, I believe the true recompense for sin is that man harms himself.
Sin is the fire.
Quote from: Cardinal on April 09, 2014, 12:47:27 AM
:cloud9: You know I can actually see the "undying worm" part as two sides of the same coin. The "fire" only burns if there is flesh to consume, otherwise it only consumes the bondages.
The Word only burns if there is conviction of sin, otherwise the stone (letter) is smitten to release the water of the Spirit that sooths and heals.
Which way it "hits" depends on the "position" of the hearer. My :2c: Blessings....
:iagree:
To me, this is the core revelation of sanctification. There is only one fire, God. "Our God is a consuming fire." As, "gold tried in the fire seven times"(Zech) the Lampstand is made by a skilled craftsman of piece, pure and moldable.
"He will come as a refiner's fire.... I will purge away all your alloys...." (Malachi)
"...fiery trials for the purification of your faith...." (Peter)
"Everymans work will be tested with fire.....for the Day shall reveal it" (1 Corinthians 3)
"Every person shall be salted with fire(all men ever) and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt(every believer).
As Cardinal stated, when there is nothing left to consume, no adversary to God's love, no residue of "selfishness", then the gold(person) will shine as a finished piece in the Master's collection. Peace.
Still also also, "the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity"
:cloud9: Amen Eaglesway. You stated it much clearer than I did. Thanks! Blessings.... :girlheart:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2014, 09:07:35 AM
(Grace has nothing to do with it. Grace never overrules the law)
Can you go into that a little?
Thanks
Quote from: Cardinal on April 10, 2014, 05:05:04 PM
:cloud9: Amen Eaglesway. You stated it much clearer than I did. Thanks! Blessings.... :girlheart:
I agree. :thumbsup:
I have come to see that there is a fire on Zion for sanctification, where Jerusalem is. And then there is a fire in the valley. And both fires do a work of tearing down the flesh.
The fire in Zion (of sanctification) is so much better.
:cloud9: Amen. Both hurt, but you don't suffer as much loss in the fires of sanctification. You just lose what you didn't need in the first place, but in a case of mistaken identity, THOUGHT it was you. :laughing7: :declare: Blessings...
Quote from: Seth on April 10, 2014, 07:40:36 AM
Still also also, "the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity"
Yes, the tongue is a fire. It consumes us if we misuse it. "Beware if you bite and devour one another lest you consume one another". Judgment is in the tongue, God has made it so by the spirit He put in us, that we create and destroy with it even as He does, for we are made after His likeness.
God has set principles of fire and water in motion in the creation, for both futility and harmony, chaos and order. "Light shall shine out of darkness"(2Cor)
How is this? Is it darkness or is it light? It is darkness until we see into it, through the torn veil, the fellowship of the broken body of Christ.
"Take and eat, this is my body, broken for you."
God is teaching us to use our tongue as sons of the most high by letting us reap what we sow of it, but until we see through the discipline of it, the darkness of it, we cannot see the sanctifying result of the fire. The Psalmist says
In my trouble I cried to the Lord
and He answered me
"Deliver me from lying lips
and a deceitful tongue"
What shall be done unto you
and what more be given to you oh deceitful tongue
sharp arrows of the mighty
with coals of juniper wood.
Remember Isaiah 6
Woe unto me for I am a man of unclean lips
and I dwell among a people of unclean lips
and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts
Then flew one of the seraphim unto me
with a live coal in his hand taken with the tongs off the altar
Behold, this has touched your lips
Your iniquity is taken away and your sin is purged
Then I heard the voice of the Lord and He said, "Who will go for me"
And I said, here I am send me and He said, "Go and tell this people
Keep on seeing and not perceiving, hearing and not understanding.....
Most disciples are still in phase one: Woe unto me for I am a man of unclean lips and I have seen the King.
Our consciousness of His righteousness rings out like "LET THERE BE LIGHT" over the chaos of our carnality and conviction reigns as we eat sin like bread and walk in the flesh. Even so His grace prevails. "Sharp arrows of the mighty(and their hearts were pierced and they cried, "Men and brethren what must we do-Acts 2) and burning coals of juniper wood" "LIGHT SHINES OUT OF DARKNESS" We see our sin and than the fire touches our tongue. "If any man control the tongue he is perfect(mature, complete -James)"
The fire has done its work, revealing our flaw even as it consumed us even as we were trying to consume another.
Create in me a clean heart O God(from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks) Desire for righteousness
"Against you and you only have I sinned and done that which was evil in your sight.... Awareness of the true nature and source of sin
"You desire truth in the inward parts and will make me to know the hidden wisdom".......An awakening to who I am left to my own devices
Deliver me from blood-guiltiness and my tongue shall sing aloud of your righteousness..." ....A desire only to flow living water from the well of the spirit
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart O God you will never cast out.".... Gratefulness for grace, dependence on God
"Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion, build up the walls of Jerusalem".......Restoration, strength, ministry as builders of lives, repairers of the breach
You have given me the tongue of the discipled that I might speak a word in season to Him that is weary(Isaiah) ....The only true discipleship leads to brokeness (follow the line of Peter, for example, to the cocks crow, and beyond, to the seaside meeting with the resurrected Lord))
Brokeness MUST COME before restoration, and for some of us (me<<< :o) it comes slow, and the evidence of it is on my tongue, inviting many arrows of the mighty(trials) and coals of the juniper(self revelations bringing truth in the inner man)- but God is faithful and patient and the Potter will not kiln the marred vessel of clay, He will pour water on it, crush it down and then shape it up again- as long as I am willing, and then some lol.
Another example of this conversion of the fire of a consuming God becoming the light shining from a purged servant.....
"And the Lord showed me Joshua, the high priest, standing before the Lord and satan standing at His right side to resist him, and the Lord said unto Satan, the Lord rebuke thee Satan, Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and stood before the angel,
And He answered and spake to those who were standing before Him and said, "Take away the filthy garments from Him".
And He said, "Behold, I have caused your iniquity to pass from you and given new a change of rainment."
And He said, "Let them place a beautiful crown upon his head"
So they placed a beautiful crown upon His head and clothed him with garments, and the angel of the Lord stood by.
And the angel of the Lord charged Joshua, "If you will walk in my ways and perform my service then you will also govern my house and keep my courts and have access among those who are standing here." Zechariah 3
Fiery trials, purified faith, coals upon the tongue, all in order that we become as He was, meek and lowly of heart.....finally fit for service.
I do not want to overwork a metaphor or anything ;o) but really, imo, there is only one fire and it is always consuming, until it is only shining as pure light.
Quote from: EagleswayGod is teaching us to use our tongue as sons of the most high by letting us reap what we sow of it, but until we see through the discipline of it, the darkness of it, we cannot see the sanctifying result of the fire. The Psalmist says
This is basically what I am talking about. :thumbsup:
Essentially the fire is everywhere, which means that when Jesus said "I have come to set fire to the earth" he really meant it. :laughing7:
I agree, there is basically one fire, which is God. His judgements come down from heaven in different forms. Sometimes, it's a matter of letting the stubborn ones (like me sometimes) get burnt up in a fire of our own making. Yet the fire still comes from God because it's his judgment to let us go down that road if we choose that.
I think what Jesus is talking about regarding the worm and the fire of Gehenna is not to let our whole selves be caught up in a judgment fire that requires humbling, but rather judge (krino) ourselves now, that we not be judged-down (katakrino) with the world. In other words, if your tongue is on fire of Gehenna, throw it outside, before it consumes the whole body.
Even when the Sons of God are through with their race and have been glorified to the world, there will be essentially two fires (spiritually speaking): One on Mt. Zion and one below in Gehenna. The Sons of God will be consumed with a fire called THE GOSPEL which is what they will use to bring everyone else out of the Gehenna fire (being lost and caught up in sin, lacking knowledge of Christ).
Talk about fighting fire with fire, eh? :laughing7:
:cloud9: Amen, love it. :iagree: :thumbsup:
I wake up, I am happy and thankful that I am here, to continue whatever His purpose, this I pray. I go to bed, thankful I was given the time to be used in whatever way, and hope/pray that His Will was able to use my/this vessel. My "daily" bread is the truth, I am able to be molded and used, corrected, reproofed, in the learning process...as I grow.
My "daily bread" Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
:dsunny: :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: ed on April 10, 2014, 05:37:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 09, 2014, 09:07:35 AM
(Grace has nothing to do with it. Grace never overrules the law)
Can you go into that a little?
Thanks
Quickly then. Almost time for my big trip to the airport :banana:
When people had debts in the ancient world they often got sold as slaves. That's what we read in the OT about people becoming slaves. They had to work to pay of their debt. The slave owner/master paid of the debt of the slave. Now the slave had a debt with the master. The debt was to work for a certain number of years.
The short story is:
Sin=debt we own to God.
Jesus paid our debt.
Jesus, for example paid the debt of a thief. For God the sin/debt of stealing is cancelled. The thief is under grace. But when Jesus was on the cross He in no way was saying: I'm paying now! Steal and kill all you like, I got it covered!
Grace is that your debts get cancelled and God 'forgets' them. So when being judged God won't say, Yeah I know Jesus paid but once a thief always a thief. I'm going to hold a grudge against you for eternity.
When you caught your son stealing from your wallet, you are entitled to lock him up in his room. But because his graduation party is that night you forgive him. Cancel his debt. He's joining the party under grace. You would say: "Son go, enjoy and steal no more"
That's how I see grace :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 11, 2014, 12:34:45 AM
Quote from: Seth on April 10, 2014, 07:40:36 AM
Still also also, "the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity"
Yes, the tongue is a fire. It consumes us if we misuse it. "Beware if you bite and devour one another lest you consume one another". Judgment is in the tongue, God has made it so by the spirit He put in us, that we create and destroy with it even as He does, for we are made after His likeness.
God has set principles of fire and water in motion in the creation, for both futility and harmony, chaos and order. "Light shall shine out of darkness"(2Cor)
How is this? Is it darkness or is it light? It is darkness until we see into it, through the torn veil, the fellowship of the broken body of Christ.
"Take and eat, this is my body, broken for you."
God is teaching us to use our tongue as sons of the most high by letting us reap what we sow of it, but until we see through the discipline of it, the darkness of it, we cannot see the sanctifying result of the fire. The Psalmist says
In my trouble I cried to the Lord
and He answered me
"Deliver me from lying lips
and a deceitful tongue"
What shall be done unto you
and what more be given to you oh deceitful tongue
sharp arrows of the mighty
with coals of juniper wood.
Remember Isaiah 6
Woe unto me for I am a man of unclean lips
and I dwell among a people of unclean lips
and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts
Then flew one of the seraphim unto me
with a live coal in his hand taken with the tongs off the altar
Behold, this has touched your lips
Your iniquity is taken away and your sin is purged
Then I heard the voice of the Lord and He said, "Who will go for me"
And I said, here I am send me and He said, "Go and tell this people
Keep on seeing and not perceiving, hearing and not understanding.....
Most disciples are still in phase one: Woe unto me for I am a man of unclean lips and I have seen the King.
Our consciousness of His righteousness rings out like "LET THERE BE LIGHT" over the chaos of our carnality and conviction reigns as we eat sin like bread and walk in the flesh. Even so His grace prevails. "Sharp arrows of the mighty(and their hearts were pierced and they cried, "Men and brethren what must we do-Acts 2) and burning coals of juniper wood" "LIGHT SHINES OUT OF DARKNESS" We see our sin and than the fire touches our tongue. "If any man control the tongue he is perfect(mature, complete -James)"
The fire has done its work, revealing our flaw even as it consumed us even as we were trying to consume another.
Create in me a clean heart O God(from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks) Desire for righteousness
"Against you and you only have I sinned and done that which was evil in your sight.... Awareness of the true nature and source of sin
"You desire truth in the inward parts and will make me to know the hidden wisdom".......An awakening to who I am left to my own devices
Deliver me from blood-guiltiness and my tongue shall sing aloud of your righteousness..." ....A desire only to flow living water from the well of the spirit
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart O God you will never cast out.".... Gratefulness for grace, dependence on God
"Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion, build up the walls of Jerusalem".......Restoration, strength, ministry as builders of lives, repairers of the breach
You have given me the tongue of the discipled that I might speak a word in season to Him that is weary(Isaiah) ....The only true discipleship leads to brokeness (follow the line of Peter, for example, to the cocks crow, and beyond, to the seaside meeting with the resurrected Lord))
Brokeness MUST COME before restoration, and for some of us (me<<< :o) it comes slow, and the evidence of it is on my tongue, inviting many arrows of the mighty(trials) and coals of the juniper(self revelations bringing truth in the inner man)- but God is faithful and patient and the Potter will not kiln the marred vessel of clay, He will pour water on it, crush it down and then shape it up again- as long as I am willing, and then some lol.
Another example of this conversion of the fire of a consuming God becoming the light shining from a purged servant.....
"And the Lord showed me Joshua, the high priest, standing before the Lord and satan standing at His right side to resist him, and the Lord said unto Satan, the Lord rebuke thee Satan, Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?
Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and stood before the angel,
And He answered and spake to those who were standing before Him and said, "Take away the filthy garments from Him".
And He said, "Behold, I have caused your iniquity to pass from you and given new a change of rainment."
And He said, "Let them place a beautiful crown upon his head"
So they placed a beautiful crown upon His head and clothed him with garments, and the angel of the Lord stood by.
And the angel of the Lord charged Joshua, "If you will walk in my ways and perform my service then you will also govern my house and keep my courts and have access among those who are standing here." Zechariah 3
Fiery trials, purified faith, coals upon the tongue, all in order that we become as He was, meek and lowly of heart.....finally fit for service.
I do not want to overwork a metaphor or anything ;o) but really, imo, there is only one fire and it is always consuming, until it is only shining as pure light.
Wow. I think there might be something there for me this morning. Thank you for that.
When I think of Grace and punishment/correction/discipline (however you want to call it), I think about Titus 2:11-12
Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching (paiduo - chastening) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Here are some other scriptures with the word "paiduo" so you get a sense of it:
- Pilate talking about Christ: (Luke 23) 15"No, nor has Herod, for he sent Him back to us; and behold, nothing deserving death has been done by Him. 16"Therefore I will punish (paiduo) Him and release Him."
- (Hebrews 12) 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth (paiduo), and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
--------
Grace is about more than forgiveness but about instructing us, through chastening, on how to live the way God wants us to live. For that reason, IMHO, there is really no need to balance Law with Grace when it comes to what God does when believers err. Grace is sufficient even for our chastening.
:friendstu:
From "Our bread," to "worm," to "fire," now, "grace." I am somewhat lost :HeartThrob:
Should not have used the word lost, just somewhat mystified about the path.Yes I know the ALL the Word coincides. :Peace2:
It all coincides. The bread brings life. But, for those who reject growing in grace, living not on that daily bread who is Christ, they are consumed by the fire of their own sins, until they reach a place of repentance, the worm having eaten them up until the flesh is gone, for blessed are those "who thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled." Until they thirst for righteousness, they are not filled.
Grace for the humble, resistance for the proud.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 11, 2014, 06:39:43 PM
From "Our bread," to "worm," to "fire," now, "grace." I am somewhat lost :HeartThrob:
Should not have used the word lost, just somewhat mystified about the path.Yes I know the ALL the Word coincides. :Peace2:
It's all connected.
Fire leads toward bread. Bread triggers grace.
God has only one single purpose and all His actions lead to that purpose.
:2c:
1 O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for THOU HAST DONE WONDERFUL THINGS; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. Isaiah 25
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Luke 11
2 "I have compassion for these PEOPLE; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat.
3 If I send them home hungry, they will collapse on the way, because some of them have come a long distance." Mark 8
36 Send the PEOPLE away so that they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat."
37 But he answered, "YOU give them something to eat." Mark 6
41 But he said, Then bring meal. And he cast it into the pot; and he said, POUR OUT for the PEOPLE, that they may eat. And there was no harm in the pot. 2 Kings 4
9 IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1
27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. Isaiah 1
15 And deliver them who through FEAR OF DEATH were all their lifetime SUBJECT TO BONDAGE. Hebrews 2
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and GREATER WORKS than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14
12 Restore unto me the JOY of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] NOBLE SPIRIT. Psalms 51
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 40
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, LIFT UP THY VOICE WITH STRENGTH; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, BEHOLD YOUR GOD!
Isaiah 11
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the PEOPLE; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his resting place shall be [IS] glorious.
Psalms 92
9 For, LO, thine enemies, O LORD, for, LO, thine enemies shall [HAVE] perish; ALL the workers of iniquity shall be [ARE] SCATTERED!
Isaiah 60
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be [IS] SEEN upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall [HAVE] come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
Isaiah 49
13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD HATH COMFORTED his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.