Isa 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
the word translated (wrongly)lucifer (which is latin btw, not greek, should give you a hint its use as a proper name is wrong) is heylel/light bearer, adam is the light bearer, as he was the bearer of the image of El
Here is the translation in Nasb
How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
Rev 22
I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!
I don't feel comfortable with the same title being given to Christ as Satan do you? (Venus is the star in view here in both passages which is the first brightest star seen in the morning), but Adam is a type of the one to come, so having the same title isn't such a stretch.
Isa 14:16 Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
as in Adam all die, through the one man came the transgression, a man made the earth tremble
He is also the king of babylon, babylon is the kingdom of this world, the fleshly desires vs. the kingdom of the spirit of the second man Christ the new Jerusalem (literal Jerusalem is called egypt and sodom)
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Eze 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,
"You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
perfection=
tok-neeth'
Origin: from 08506
Reference: TWOT - 2511b
PrtSpch: noun feminime
In Hebrew: tynkt 2
In NET: pattern 1, perfection 1
In AV: sum 1, pattern 1
Count: 2
Definition: 1) measurement, pattern, proportion
heres the only other place this word is used in the bible
Eze 43:10 As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, so that they will be ashamed of their sins and measure the pattern.
what is the temple of God? Our body the living stones, and the whole temple the entire ecclesia (assembly), God does not dwell in temples made of human hands, adam is a type or pattern of Christ who was the tabernacle walking around
"and the word became flesh and tabernacled among us"
Eze
15"You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
John 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.
1)American Standard Version EZE 43
1Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east. 2And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shined with his glory.
voice-revelation, from mount of olives, day star, sun arises
3And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city; and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
cherubim, in spirit, ate scroll, eze 1-3
4And the glory of Jehovah came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east. 5And the Spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house.
spirit took me up, holy of holies/garden banished to the east, gate blocked by cherubim
6And I heard one speaking unto me out of the house; and a man stood by me. 7And he said unto me, Son of man, this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever.
dwell in the midst
And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, and by the dead bodies of their kings in their high places; 8in their setting of their threshold by my threshold, and their door-post beside my door-post, and there was but the wall between me and them; and they have defiled my holy name by their abominations which they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger. 9Now let them put away their whoredom, and the dead bodies of their kings, far from me; and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10Thou, son of man, show the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. 11And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, make known unto them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the egresses thereof, and the entrances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof; and write it in their sight; that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them. 12This is the law of the house: upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
(form=tsurah h6699 is the feminine version of tsuwr h6697=rock as in God) (we are the bride, christ is our rock)
(also Tyre = rock and these all come from the same root 6696) (only use of H6699 in Bible)
(the word pattern is only used here and in the "lucifer" passage Eze 28)
2)dwell- in lxx its kataskeno g2681, from kata (throw down, stake down in the sense of more permanent) and skeno tent G4637
[Jhn 1:14 KJV] - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt[4637] among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. word=spirit, flesh=tent
[Rev 7:15 KJV] - Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell[4637] among them.
[Rev 12:12 KJV] - Therefore rejoice , [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell[4637] in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(do people actually live in the sea?)
[Rev 13:6 KJV] - And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell[4637] in heaven.
[Rev 21:3 KJV] - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying , Behold , the tabernacle[4633] of God [is] with men, and he will dwell[4637] with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
3)skeno 4637 is the verb of the noun 4636 tabernacle, these are the only two uses of 4636
[2Cr 5:1 KJV] - For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle[4636] were dissolved , we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2Cr 5:4 KJV] - For we that are in [this] tabernacle[4636] do groan , being burdened : not for that we would be unclothed , but clothed upon , that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
4)this comes from 4633 skene tabernacle 4633 is akin to skia 4639 (for unknown reasons to strong)
[Hbr 8:5 KJV] - Who serve unto the example (hypodiegma g5262) and shadow (skia 4639) of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle[4633]: for, See , saith he , [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[Act 7:44 KJV] - Our fathers had the tabernacle[4633] of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed , speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion (typos g5179) that he had seen .
[Hbr 8:2 KJV] - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle[4633], which the Lord pitched , and not man.
[Hbr 9:3 KJV] - And after the second veil, the tabernacle[4633] which is called the Holiest of all;
[Hbr 9:8 KJV] - The Holy Ghost this signifying , that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest , while as the first tabernacle[4633] was yet standing:old testament/physical "literal"/old man/aaronic vs
[Hbr 9:11 KJV] - But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come , by a greater and more perfect tabernacle[4633], not made with hands, that is to say , not of this building; new testament/spiritual/new man/melkezedek
Rev 21 1 1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place[4633] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,b and God himself will be with them as their God. (who is the bride?)
5) skia [4639]
(Luke 1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,)
[Luk 1:79 KJV] - To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow[4639] of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
[Mat 4:16 KJV] - The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow[4639] of death light is sprung up . (shadow of darkness is the law of sin and death, sprung up=arises same as 2 Pet 1:19 as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.)
[Mar 4:32 KJV] - But when it is sown , it groweth up , and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow[4639] of it. (speaking of the kingdom of heaven, which is at hand proclaimed Jesus)
[Col 2:17 KJV] - Which are a shadow[4639] of things to come ; but the body [is] of Christ.(talking about the OC, the literal)
[Hbr 8:5 KJV] - Who serve unto the example and shadow[4639] of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[Hbr 10:1 KJV] - For the law having a shadow[4639] of good things to come , [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect .
(The law, the ritual the physical temple are the shadow and not the very image (remember this word skia is related to tabernacle, the tabernacle is the shadow, the pattern)
6)image,
[Rom 1:23 NASB] - and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image[1504] in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
[Rom 8:29 NASB] - For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image[1504] of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
[1Cr 11:7 NASB] - For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image[1504] and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
[1Cr 15:49 NASB] - Just as we have borne the image[1504] of the earthy, we will also bear the image[1504] of the heavenly.
[2Cr 3:18 NASB] - But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image[1504] from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. (transformed from the image of earthy/adam)
[2Cr 4:4 NASB] - in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image[1504] of God.
[Col 1:15 NASB] - He is the image[1504] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
[Col 3:10 NASB] - and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image[1504] of the One who created him --
[Rev 13:14 NASB] - And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image[1504] to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.
[Rev 13:15 NASB] - And it was given to him to give breath to the image[1504] of the beast, so that the image[1504] of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image[1504] of the beast to be killed.
(where is the image of the beast set up?, image of earthy vs image of heavenly, adam vs jesus) (Ecc all men are wild beasts)
(the number of the mark of the beast is 666 the number of man, anthropos,mankind)
7)hypodiegma 5262
[Jhn 13:15 KJV] - For I have given you an example[5262], that ye should do as I have done to you. (wash feet, pick up cross, die to self, enter into the holy of holies, enter into rest)
[Hbr 4:11 KJV] - Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example[5262] of unbelief. (entering into rest=enter the holy of holies, speaking of the promised land, the Israelites didn't enter when they should have)
[Hbr 8:5 KJV] - Who serve unto the example[5262] and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See , saith he , [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
[Hbr 9:23 KJV] - [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns[5262] of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.[/color]
8)type tupos G5179
[Rom 5:14 NASB] - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type[5179] of Him who was to come.
[1Cr 10:6 NASB] - Now these things happened as examples[5179] for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. (the things here is everything in the OT)
[Phl 3:17 NASB] - Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern[5179] you have in us.
[1Th 1:7 NASB] - so that you became an example[5179] to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.
[/b] (christ is our pattern, as we grow up into the fullness of Christ we become the pattern for others)
9)"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD:
"You were the signet of perfection,a
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;
(the word likeness here is the same used for signet in LXX, it signifies a signet ring or stamp used to seal documents, we are the stamp of God, this is the only place this word appears in the NT)
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
same word for precious, look up H3368, the word is used almost all times of precious stones/materials to build, decorate, or fill the temple. Also compared to wisdom, and Christ (the light)
Isa 28:16 therefore thus says the Lord GOD, See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation: "One who trusts will not panic."
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.
(9 gems, 9 fruits of the spirit, 9 is the number of HS)(nearly all the uses of the gems listed are of that in the breastplate of the high priest, who is the great high priest? adam is a type of the one to come)
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
(annointed, kings and rulers were annointed, messiah means annointed)
10)1 pet 2 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
(precious G1784 is used only of people and in this passage at all in the bible)
7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps (what was his example? to die to his flesh, enter the holy of holies through a new way, through his flesh)
11)I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
I, personally wish the translators would have left the word "hêylêl" alone. Yet I have to believe that the Lord had good reason to have all the confusion that we have even today. It seems to me that it adds to a great deal as to how we will not come together. I reason that way back in Genesis the need for a particular name/someone or thing, to blame and lay a weight on to make us "feel" better or to use a 1940's early 1950's word...swell, is all part of our learning.
I personally feel any labor over this word, for what or who it represents falls into the very flaw that The Lord knew that man would fall into. I consider it to be very unimportant. :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
The confusions all part of the plan Micah, Babel anyone? Chaos to order, darkness to light.
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 07, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
The confusions all part of the plan Micah, Babel anyone? Chaos to order, darkness to light.
Perhaps that is so. :bigGrin:
I think it is definitely so. If we consider that AQdam was driven out of the garden for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and eveil, this in essence is darkness, chaos. It is a flaming sword that keeps us out- it moves to meet us wherever we try to break in, because the Door is the only acceptable entrance to the Sheepfold. The Sheepfold is described(IMO) in 1 John
If we walk in the light as He is in the Light we have fellowship(koinonea, oneness, union &communion, harmony) with one another(love one another, bear one anothers burdens, esteem one another better than yourself, forbear one another, forgive one another), and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
It iis in the communion of brotherly love that the efficacy of the blood is at its greatest and the Spiritat its strongest. When we move into love, we get the two great promises of Ephesians, "that you might know what is the height and the depth and the breadth of the love of Christ and be filled up into all the fulness of God(Eph 3:19) and... speaking the truth in love....
Eph 4:13-16 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
In other words, love is the core revelation, becoming a tree of life in all those who eat of it. Set in that context, some of the other stuff we talk about may have some importance. :o)
Lucifer ,the Morning star falling to earth Being Adam[ Mankind] driven from the Garden , descended into Hades being death the conscious state of Man~ Death and Hades having their part in the Lake of Fire , the restoration of the DEAD~ :icon_flower:
This part has a sound base, "Mankind] driven from the Garden." Peace.
:cloud9: Amen, Lucifer is Adam, who was a High Priest of God originally. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on November 07, 2011, 03:24:21 PM
Lucifer ,the Morning star falling to earth Being Adam[ Mankind] driven from the Garden , descended into Hades being death the conscious state of Man~ Death and Hades having their part in the Lake of Fire , the restoration of the DEAD~ :icon_flower:
:cloud9: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 11, 2011, 03:46:22 PM
:cloud9: Amen, Lucifer is Adam, who was a High Priest of God originally. :thumbsup:
Cardinal, could you explain this a little more? Where do you find that Adam is Lucifer and a high priest? Never heard of this before.
CHB
unless a kernal of wheat fall to the earth and die..it can not bear fruit unto heaven?
:cloud9: Short on time; read the description of every precious stone being his covering. That he was a priest, is shown by the fact his sons knew to do sacrifices. Blessings....
read it originated with Oriegen,Tertilluin.
until Shiloh come[heir]
as you have bore the image of the corruptible..so too,ye shall bear the image of the incorruptible/til a day star rise in your heart
the heirs rise[Christ] is the pretender to the throne's 'demise"
I shall not give my glory to another
they hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains...fall on us..[stumbling stones?]
I wonder if Adam is just 'bearing the image' of the corrupt one........the lawless one..who had no legal right
Lucifer...LUcifer...luCIFer...lucIfeR...LuCifer...LUCifer......only an opinon but "mans imagination" of this is one word/name can
go on and on and on and on. Religion, theologians, newbies, and the deeply inspired, ALL will take this word/name and run like they are running on a giant screen with sand continuously passing through the many holes and they will all try to build using that illusive sand. I find it a maze[/i] ing! :laughing7: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on November 11, 2011, 06:02:11 PM
I wonder if Adam is just 'bearing the image' of the corrupt one........the lawless one..who had no legal right
:icon_flower:
The Face who is Not the face, but the image~Until were are BECOME the FACE[ TRUE Identity] and see who we REALLY ARE~ where art thou Adam? :icon_flower:
It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
" How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden city ceased!
5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, 'Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.'
9 " Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
' Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.'
The Fall of Lucifer
12 " How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
' I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 " Those who see you will gaze at you,
The verses used here are within the context of the proverb against the King of Babylon, and the golden city. Since Babylon is Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified (Revelation)- to me, it speaks to the "Golden Head" of Daniels vision, Babylon, as the premier of all the kingdoms of men(nations that were weakened). Adam, as the man through whom death entered and all men died, through whom the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh and the pride of life entered- the Carnal Man- can be implied, but only metaphorically IMO. If the stones with which the "daystar", the "son of the morning" was decorated were set upon Adam then Adam it is, but there is no conclusive testimony to that I've seen. But if the Daystar was one of the "sons of the morning" who rejoiced over the creation(Job) then it could, and in my opinion is, "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience", the "ruler of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms", the power behind the thrones of men. Adam, Nebo, Pharoah, on through to the one who is to come (2 Thess 2:9) The "golden head" in the heavenly realms, who I believe met with Jesus as he fasted upon the mount, and rules the principalities and powers such as the "Prince of Persia" with whom Gabriel and Michael the archangel struggled as Daniel fasted for ten days. It seems to me that Adam came under the authority of the of the adversary, and that all the prophesies that run through the rulers of "this present evil age" also run through Satan, the source of Anti-Christ, angel of light.
Zechariah 3:2
And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
2 Cor:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Acts 26:17,18 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
Revelation 20:2
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
IMO Every "ruler of men" from Pharoah to Pharisee to Pastor is in Adam, Lucifer, Satan.
But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
"Since Babylon is Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified (Revelation)" Eaglesway
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie upon the broadway of the great city, the which is called, spiritually,
Sodom and Egypt, where, their Lord also was crucified.
Wasn't Jesus crucifed in Jerusalem?
"lie upon the broadway of the "great" city," The city is
"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt,"
But in true understanding it was in Jerusalem where He was crucified, was it not? :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 11, 2011, 11:56:15 PM
"Since Babylon is Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified (Revelation)" Eaglesway
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie upon the broadway of the great city, the which is called, spiritually,
Sodom and Egypt, where, their Lord also was crucified.
Wasn't Jesus crucifed in Jerusalem?
"lie upon the broadway of the "great" city," The city is
"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt,"
But in true understanding it was in Jerusalem where He was crucified, was it not? :dontknow:
spiritually speaking sodom\Egypt[ Pharoah] are types of the carnal Mind who in the beginning slew our Lord [ Garden]likened to OLD jerusalem being the flesh of the OLD MAN, at Golgotha, the Place of the SKULL~Christ being slain from the Foundation of the WORLD , HE reconciilng us throu HIS death , saved by HIS LIFE~
So it wasn't Jerusalem? Is that correct? :dontknow: :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
So it wasn't Jerusalem? Is that correct? :dontknow: :sigh:
definately outwardly OLd Jerusalem~ :icon_flower:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2011, 11:34:12 PM
It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:
" How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden city ceased!
5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, 'Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.'
9 " Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
' Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.'
The Fall of Lucifer
12 " How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
' I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 " Those who see you will gaze at you,
The verses used here are within the context of the proverb against the King of Babylon, and the golden city. Since Babylon is Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified (Revelation)- to me, it speaks to the "Golden Head" of Daniels vision, Babylon, as the premier of all the kingdoms of men(nations that were weakened). Adam, as the man through whom death entered and all men died, through whom the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh and the pride of life entered- the Carnal Man- can be implied, but only metaphorically IMO. If the stones with which the "daystar", the "son of the morning" was decorated were set upon Adam then Adam it is, but there is no conclusive testimony to that I've seen. But if the Daystar was one of the "sons of the morning" who rejoiced over the creation(Job) then it could, and in my opinion is, "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience", the "ruler of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms", the power behind the thrones of men. Adam, Nebo, Pharoah, on through to the one who is to come (2 Thess 2:9) The "golden head" in the heavenly realms, who I believe met with Jesus as he fasted upon the mount, and rules the principalities and powers such as the "Prince of Persia" with whom Gabriel and Michael the archangel struggled as Daniel fasted for ten days. It seems to me that Adam came under the authority of the of the adversary, and that all the prophesies that run through the rulers of "this present evil age" also run through Satan, the source of Anti-Christ, angel of light.
Zechariah 3:2
And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?"
2 Cor:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
Acts 26:17,18 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now[a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
2 Thessalonians 2:9
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
Revelation 20:2
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
IMO Every "ruler of men" from Pharoah to Pharisee to Pastor is in Adam, Lucifer, Satan.
But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
Oh no. Could this be the witness to some understanding I received about a day before this thread started?
I had this understanding, I asked for confirmation, and this thread started, and maybe your post confirms. But let me show some, too see if what I say rings any bells.
I had more info than this, but this is what I recall for the time being.
In Adam all die. In christ all shall be made alive.
In the thread concerning lucifer, we have a man who ruled the earth and his ambition was to become as God.
The scriptures reveal that one day a beast shall come who comes with the number of man.
Adam is the MAN. His number is 666. Is there any clue as to why Adam could be 666?
The beast desires worship. Adam desired worship.
The antichrist spirit is seen as seperate from the devil. The devil is known throughout scripure as the serpent and the dragon, but John spoke of a new spirit that came in his day, the spirit of the antichrist.
Adam kills all of mankind. The beast kills all of mankind.
Adams son Cain had a mark of God. So Adam mocks Christ by inititiating the mark of the beast.
In adam all die(anti) but in Christ all shall be made alive(Christ)
Adam = anti Christ death
The dragon gives the beast his authority. It is the serpent who has the authority over Adam, and Adam gave him that authority.
The Dragon tempted Christ the second Adam also to give his authority to the dragon. But unlike Adam Christ refused and overcame.
We are the prisoners of the beast, his children. Maybe that's why humanity is so evil. We are the offspring of the beast. So in order to become children of God we must be adopted into Christ.
:OhNo:
Quote from: Taffy on November 12, 2011, 12:46:30 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
So it wasn't Jerusalem? Is that correct? :dontknow: :sigh:
definately outwardly OLd Jerusalem~ :icon_flower:
Mystery babylon children of the flesh, those in bondage to the laws of mount sinai.
As opposed the those in Christ, who abide in New Jerusalem which is above and free.
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2011, 12:51:41 AM
Quote from: Taffy on November 12, 2011, 12:46:30 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
So it wasn't Jerusalem? Is that correct? :dontknow: :sigh:
definately outwardly OLd Jerusalem~ :icon_flower:
Mystery babylon children of the flesh, those in bondage to the laws of mount sinai.
As opposed the those in Christ, who abide in New Jerusalem which is above and free.
Inwardly and Outwardly TT#~Babylon is within and without~ the Physical bearing witness to the Inner man#
~ as is the TWO seeds [ confusion] of cain and abel Birthed within the Womb[ Our EVE] of our Mind~ Tis why the Lord Crushes the """HEAD"""of the Seedwho Bit at HIS heels~AS The Lord is Not the AUTHOR of Confusion~Babylon Falls being the Carnal Mind Shown as the OLD Church being Old Jerusalem~ :icon_flower:
We are the prisoners of the beast, his children. Maybe that's why humanity is so evil. We are the offspring of the beast. So in order to become children of God we must be adopted into Christ.
There is a SOUND beginning to rise up . . .a symphony of revelation given by individuals whom God has directly unveiled Christ's nature to. It's not like any other noise relisgious men have heard or can connect with or identify. But to those to whom the song was given, it makes them resonate with the glory of his light and freedom. Some may be singing a differnt pitch, but it harmonizes with the lyrics of God in us. Once the song begins to come forth from our mouths, it reaches past our minds and into our loins. It's desire is to reproduce that very same avenue of discourse through every being he's created. Let the river flow!
QuoteSome may be singing a differnt pitch, but it harmonizes with the lyrics of God in us.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: TTIn the thread concerning lucifer, we have a man who ruled the earth and his ambition was to become as God.
Adam ruled the earth for a very short time, chapter 2 of Genesis, he got to name the animals and his wife--that's it.
Then he lost dominion to Satan, who is currently the god of this age.
Don't forget--Adam was never deceived, therefore he did not believe the Shining One in the garden, therefore, he did not eat of the tree for purposes of becoming like God because he knew he would die instead.
Sorry, but I can't stand by and watch Adam maligned and not say something. So --carry on.
Adam.... who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]
Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2011, 01:38:12 AM
We are the prisoners of the beast, his children. Maybe that's why humanity is so evil. We are the offspring of the beast. So in order to become children of God we must be adopted into Christ.
There is a SOUND beginning to rise up . . .a symphony of revelation given by individuals whom God has directly unveiled Christ's nature to. It's not like any other noise relisgious men have heard or can connect with or identify. But to those to whom the song was given, it makes them resonate with the glory of his light and freedom. Some may be singing a differnt pitch, but it harmonizes with the lyrics of God in us. Once the song begins to come forth from our mouths, it reaches past our minds and into our loins. It's desire is to reproduce that very same avenue of discourse through every being he's created. Let the river flow!
Sounds Good! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 11, 2011, 11:56:15 PM
"Since Babylon is Sodom and Egypt where our Lord was crucified (Revelation)" Eaglesway
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie upon the broadway of the great city, the which is called, spiritually,
Sodom and Egypt, where, their Lord also was crucified.
Wasn't Jesus crucifed in Jerusalem?
"lie upon the broadway of the "great" city," The city is
"spiritually called Sodom and Egypt,"
But in true understanding it was in Jerusalem where He was crucified, was it not? :dontknow:
Absolutely, my point exactly...... the prophetic identity runs through all who "rule". Babylon, Egypt, Jerusalem. As Jesus said to those who ruled Jerusalem "You are of your father the devil" and "You are the sons of Cain, a murderer from the beginning". Abel serves, Cain murders. "Wherein our Lord was crucified". Therefore I am suggesting the prophesies run through Adam, to Satan.....Father of lies, author of confusion, a murderer from the beginning. I do not think it can be authoritatively interpreted that Lucifer is Adam, but, with respect, I am just offering evidence to that effect and it is my opinion :o)
Thank God that He is reconciling all things to Himself through the blood of Christ. whether things on earth or things in heaven, things visible and things invisible. :HeartThrob:
1Co 2:6-8 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, (8) which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
When Satan nailed Christ to the cross in Jerusalem, it was like a defiant note nailed to God's door."I just killed your King right here in the apple of your eye, at the footstool of your feet." What he didnt understand was that his act of defiance was planned by God before the creation of the world and actually nailed the door open for the reconciliation of all things....."For so it pleased the Father to make all fulness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself by the blood of his cross". All things work together for good to those who are called according to His purpose, who works all things according to the counsel of His will, and His kind intention which He purposed in Christ.
I'm not saying that Lucifer = Satan, or that Lucifer is a proper name in my OP. I don't quite know who or what satan is. What I was saying is that the one called lucifer, is adam the light bearer, not a fallen angel. Nowhere are cherubs called angels in the bible btw.
Just clarifying.
Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2011, 03:44:22 AM
Quote from: TTIn the thread concerning lucifer, we have a man who ruled the earth and his ambition was to become as God.
Adam ruled the earth for a very short time, chapter 2 of Genesis, he got to name the animals and his wife--that's it.
Then he lost dominion to Satan, who is currently the god of this age.
Don't forget--Adam was never deceived, therefore he did not believe the Shining One in the garden, therefore, he did not eat of the tree for purposes of becoming like God because he knew he would die instead.
Sorry, but I can't stand by and watch Adam maligned and not say something. So --carry on.
Adam.... who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]
Feel free to voice your opinion. I do look for any witnesses, via christ.
Adam partaked the tree of good and evil. We don't know if he had any negotiations with the serpent. An interesting thing is that after being driven from the garden, there is no scripture showing God and Adam conversing. The scriptures show that in Enoch times, "Then men began to call upon the name of the lord"
But yesterday night, I watched a film called Eli. I did not plan to watch this film. This film is about the last surviving bible on earth.
Interesting things was that in the film an old couple decided to play a song on a record player. The song was a "rings my bell"
sang over and over. I immediately thought of my question, "ring any bells?" in my post. It was almost as if God was answering me.
But here is something else. Adam was made in Gods image, but after he fell, he now as the beast desires to set up his own image, the abomination of desolation.
:cloud9: Again, it's revelation that I share, another piece of the puzzle is all we can bring, and the witness within will say yea or nay at the appointed time.
It was years before I understood because line upon line and precept upon precept have be laid first, but I had a night vision, plain as day, one day when I fell asleep reading the Word, when I first came to the Lord. I saw stones set in gold in my chest and the Lord spoke to me, "Restoration back to the anointed cherub that covereth."
Spiritual position speaking, Adam and Eve were drawing their life from the Holly of Holies, figuratively bowing in submission and reverence (as in the cherubim on the ark of the covenant).
Their location, was in the garden AS the TWO TREES in the midst of the garden (inner court). The two trees in the inner court are represented by the candlestick (spirit) and the table of shewbread (soul). This is the place of rightly dividing the Word of God, the separation of light from darkness, where we behold Satan fall as lightning from heaven, which is what happens every time a fresh revelation comes by His breath and he is cast down out of his position of rulership over that particular area the LIVING Word, just revealed. The letter kills (soul/Eve) but the Spirit giveth life.
We knew not what sin was until the law came, ie. the serpent/darkness is part of the experience of eating of the shewbread and learning to discern good and evil. The shewbread speaks of the 12 tribes, symbolic of all life experienced in the flesh, that will ultimately produce the Son. The serpent's "seed" was the "leaven" that was snuck in while Adam "slept", ie. the tares that were planted in Matt. 13.
The law/bread ministered condemnation which ministers death to the hearer, witnessed by the what happened when some took the mercy seat off the ark of the covenant and were immediately struck dead = the serpent was there as a murderer from the beginning.
Then they were cast out (into the outer court, place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, outer darkness), to a place that only produces thistles and thorns without works, and since the HG does the works (which is why it's an inner court experience) it's a dry place (wilderness of sin) without the baptism of the Spirit.
Adam was not deceived because he was a priest, and as a High Priest he sacrificed himself for her, knowing that the Father would not suffer his son to see corruption (forever), and so would ultimately raise him up (and since they were one, her with him). The laying down of one's life IS the nature of the Spirit, and symbolically what the High Priest as a type of Head does once a year on the Day of Atonement, where he sacrifices for his sins AND the sins of the people ("Eve" the body), then risks his life by going into His presence in their place. This is the pure motive of the heart, the laying down of one's life for another.
Essentially, what he was doing, was "lowering" himself to take on the image of flesh via the death of sin. My :2c: Blessings...
@ Nate.....a resounding AMEN!
:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
awesome word~ :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2011, 04:11:41 PM
:cloud9: Again, it's revelation that I share, another piece of the puzzle is all we can bring, and the witness within will say yea or nay at the appointed time.
It was years before I understood because line upon line and precept upon precept have be laid first, but I had a night vision, plain as day, one day when I fell asleep reading the Word, when I first came to the Lord. I saw stones set in gold in my chest and the Lord spoke to me, "Restoration back to the anointed cherub that covereth."
Spiritual position speaking, Adam and Eve were drawing their life from the Holly of Holies, figuratively bowing in submission and reverence (as cherubim on the ark of the covenant).
Their location, was in the garden AS the TWO TREES in the midst of the garden (inner court). The two trees in the inner court are represented by the candlestick (spirit) and the table of shewbread (soul). This is the place of rightly dividing the Word of God, the separation of light from darkness, where we behold Satan fall as lightning from heaven, which is what happens every time a fresh revelation comes by His breath and he is cast down out of his position of rulership over that particular area the LIVING Word, just revealed. The letter kills (soul/Eve) but the Spirit giveth life.
We knew not what sin was until the law came, ie. the serpent/darkness is part of the experience of eating of the shewbread and learning to discern good and evil. The shewbread speaks of the 12 tribes, symbolic of all life experienced in the flesh, that will ultimately produce the Son. The serpent's "seed" was the "leaven" that was snuck in while Adam "slept", ie. the tares that were planted in Matt. 13.
The law/bread ministered condemnation which ministers death to the hearer, witness by the what happened when some took the mercy seat off the ark of the covenant and were immediately struck dead = the serpent was there as a murderer from the beginning.
Then they were cast out (into the outer court, place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, outer darkness), to a place that only produces thistles and thorns without works, and since the HG does the works (which is why it's an inner court experience) it's a dry place (wilderness of sin) without the baptism of the Spirit.
Adam was not deceived because he was a priest, and as a High Priest he sacrificed himself for her, knowing that the Father would not suffer his son to see corruption (forever), and so would ultimately raise him up (and since they were one, her with him). The laying down of one's life IS the nature of the Spirit, and symbolically what the High Priest as a type of Head does once a year on the Day of Atonement, where he sacrifices for his sins AND the sins of the people ("Eve" the body), then risks his life by going into His presence in their place. This is the pure motive of the heart, the laying down of one's life for another.
Essentially, what he was doing, was "lowering" himself to take on the image of flesh via the death of sin. My :2c: Blessings...
@ Nate.....a resounding AMEN!
I don't really have a problem with Adam as a priest. I think the idea that Adam was/is a cherub is unclear, taken in context with all that is written of cherubs. I think the idea that Adam "sacrificed himself" as a high priest for Eve, is an error of understanding, if that is what is meant. Death entered through one man's sin. Life entered all through one man's righteousness. This was the plan from the beginning.The similtude of Adam and Christ alluded to by Paul in Roman's is in this respect- through one man. One old man, who sinned in his own desire. One new man, who sacrificed His desire in order to save all. Looking backward from Christ as a type, towards Adam is not the intent of the example IMO. Adam needs no defence, he has been forgiven. He did not need to be forgiven of a selfless sacrifice. Death could not enter through such a door IMO.
:cloud9: I totally understand what you are saying. But......what he did was "good", which is STILL eating of the wrong tree, which produces death. We can have a right motive, but if the Lord didn't tell us to do something, it still produces death. IF the Lord by His breath had told him to do it, there would have been no sin.
He was perceiving thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) what the Lord does, in the laying down of life. It's the same thing as doing good works without faith (which comes from the Spirit speaking), which still is death, or death-producing.
Every think about the fact the VEIL had winged (which means feathers, a type of covering) cherubims woven into it by His decree? Blessings....
Quote from: CardinalAdam was not deceived because he was a priest, and as a High Priest he sacrificed himself for her, knowing that the Father would not suffer his son to see corruption (forever), and so would ultimately raise him up (and since they were one, her with him). The laying down of one's life IS the nature of the Spirit, and symbolically what the High Priest as a type of Head does once a year on the Day of Atonement, where he sacrifices for his sins AND the sins of the people ("Eve" the body), then risks his life by going into His presence in their place. This is the pure motive of the heart, the laying down of one's life for another.
Essentially, what he was doing, was "lowering" himself to take on the image of flesh via the death of sin. My Blessings...
Adam was without sin before he partook of the tree, nor was he deceived. It was Eve who sinned.
And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. [1 Tim 2:14]
Thus, Adam as the firstborn without spot or blemish was able to offer himself for his wife. Like Jesus, he acted as high priest offering his life for another. Adam is the first sacrifice made for sin, done by his own hand, and the first priest, offering that sacrifice to God.
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, [Exo 12:5]
It was Adam's own decision, and here is the transgression, he made the decision knowing full well he would die, and that he would lose his dominion, but knowing God, in hope, that this would save Eve and her children and all of creation.
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. [Rom 8:21]
Therefore, he is a figure [the spitting image] of the one to come, for no greater love hath man than he lay down his life for his friends.
None of this in any way resembles Heylel, the Shining One, of Isaiah 14, who also walked in the garden.
Adam, the first human Christ bearer, is the lamb slain from the casting down of the world order of God. It is his death that casts down the order set up by God where Adam would rule. All those written in the Book of life of this lamb is all of humanity, awaiting their order of salvation given to them by their kinsman Redeemer, the Son of Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. [Heb 2:14, 15]
Quote from: eaglesway on November 12, 2011, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2011, 04:11:41 PM
:cloud9: Again, it's revelation that I share, another piece of the puzzle is all we can bring, and the witness within will say yea or nay at the appointed time.
It was years before I understood because line upon line and precept upon precept have be laid first, but I had a night vision, plain as day, one day when I fell asleep reading the Word, when I first came to the Lord. I saw stones set in gold in my chest and the Lord spoke to me, "Restoration back to the anointed cherub that covereth."
Spiritual position speaking, Adam and Eve were drawing their life from the Holly of Holies, figuratively bowing in submission and reverence (as cherubim on the ark of the covenant).
Their location, was in the garden AS the TWO TREES in the midst of the garden (inner court). The two trees in the inner court are represented by the candlestick (spirit) and the table of shewbread (soul). This is the place of rightly dividing the Word of God, the separation of light from darkness, where we behold Satan fall as lightning from heaven, which is what happens every time a fresh revelation comes by His breath and he is cast down out of his position of rulership over that particular area the LIVING Word, just revealed. The letter kills (soul/Eve) but the Spirit giveth life.
We knew not what sin was until the law came, ie. the serpent/darkness is part of the experience of eating of the shewbread and learning to discern good and evil. The shewbread speaks of the 12 tribes, symbolic of all life experienced in the flesh, that will ultimately produce the Son. The serpent's "seed" was the "leaven" that was snuck in while Adam "slept", ie. the tares that were planted in Matt. 13.
The law/bread ministered condemnation which ministers death to the hearer, witness by the what happened when some took the mercy seat off the ark of the covenant and were immediately struck dead = the serpent was there as a murderer from the beginning.
Then they were cast out (into the outer court, place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, outer darkness), to a place that only produces thistles and thorns without works, and since the HG does the works (which is why it's an inner court experience) it's a dry place (wilderness of sin) without the baptism of the Spirit.
Adam was not deceived because he was a priest, and as a High Priest he sacrificed himself for her, knowing that the Father would not suffer his son to see corruption (forever), and so would ultimately raise him up (and since they were one, her with him). The laying down of one's life IS the nature of the Spirit, and symbolically what the High Priest as a type of Head does once a year on the Day of Atonement, where he sacrifices for his sins AND the sins of the people ("Eve" the body), then risks his life by going into His presence in their place. This is the pure motive of the heart, the laying down of one's life for another.
Essentially, what he was doing, was "lowering" himself to take on the image of flesh via the death of sin. My :2c: Blessings...
@ Nate.....a resounding AMEN!
I don't really have a problem with Adam as a priest. I think the idea that Adam was/is a cherub is unclear, taken in context with all that is written of cherubs. I think the idea that Adam "sacrificed himself" as a high priest for Eve, is an error of understanding, if that is what is meant. Death entered through one man's sin. Life entered all through one man's righteousness. This was the plan from the beginning.The similtude of Adam and Christ alluded to by Paul in Roman's is in this respect- through one man. One old man, who sinned in his own desire. One new man, who sacrificed His desire in order to save all. Looking backward from Christ as a type, towards Adam is not the intent of the example IMO. Adam needs no defence, he has been forgiven. He did not need to be forgiven of a selfless sacrifice. Death could not enter through such a door IMO.
Reads like sound reasoning. Thanks EW :happy3:
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 12, 2011, 02:38:06 PM
I'm not saying that Lucifer = Satan, or that Lucifer is a proper name in my OP. I don't quite know who or what satan is. What I was saying is that the one called lucifer, is adam the light bearer, not a fallen angel. Nowhere are cherubs called angels in the bible btw.
Just clarifying.
I cant find "fallen angels" in my Bible. :sigh:
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2011, 02:58:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2011, 03:44:22 AM
Quote from: TTIn the thread concerning lucifer, we have a man who ruled the earth and his ambition was to become as God.
Adam ruled the earth for a very short time, chapter 2 of Genesis, he got to name the animals and his wife--that's it.
Then he lost dominion to Satan, who is currently the god of this age.
Don't forget--Adam was never deceived, therefore he did not believe the Shining One in the garden, therefore, he did not eat of the tree for purposes of becoming like God because he knew he would die instead.
Sorry, but I can't stand by and watch Adam maligned and not say something. So --carry on.
Adam.... who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]
Feel free to voice your opinion. I do look for any witnesses, via christ.
Adam partaked the tree of good and evil. We don't know if he had any negotiations with the serpent. An interesting thing is that after being driven from the garden, there is no scripture showing God and Adam conversing. The scriptures show that in Enoch times, "Then men began to call upon the name of the lord"
But yesterday night, I watched a film called Eli. I did not plan to watch this film. This film is about the last surviving bible on earth.
Interesting things was that in the film an old couple decided to play a song on a record player. The song was a "rings my bell"
sang over and over. I immediately thought of my question, "ring any bells?" in my post. It was almost as if God was answering me.
But here is something else. Adam was made in Gods image, but after he fell, he now as the beast desires to set up his own image, the abomination of desolation.
"Adam was made in Gods image..." TT
I don't see that. Should Adam have been made in God"s image, there would never have been the "fall" you speak of, I don't believe that God would have eaten of the fruit.
I don't try to find indifference, its just that all the old "stories," have left my heart to wonder.
Fallen Angels
And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.[Jude 1:6
I don't see that. Should Adam have been made in God"s image, there would never have been the "fall" you speak of, I don't believe that God would have eaten of the fruit.
I don't try to find indifference, its just that all the old "stories," have left my heart to wonder.
TT
I'm just quoting scripture. We each have our interpretation of that image.
Adam is the image bearer, as are we. And, one day we shall be like him whose image we now bear
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2]
Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2011, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: CardinalAdam was not deceived because he was a priest, and as a High Priest he sacrificed himself for her, knowing that the Father would not suffer his son to see corruption (forever), and so would ultimately raise him up (and since they were one, her with him). The laying down of one's life IS the nature of the Spirit, and symbolically what the High Priest as a type of Head does once a year on the Day of Atonement, where he sacrifices for his sins AND the sins of the people ("Eve" the body), then risks his life by going into His presence in their place. This is the pure motive of the heart, the laying down of one's life for another.
Essentially, what he was doing, was "lowering" himself to take on the image of flesh via the death of sin. My Blessings...
Adam was without sin before he partook of the tree, nor was he deceived. It was Eve who sinned.
And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. [1 Tim 2:14]
Thus, Adam as the firstborn without spot or blemish was able to offer himself for his wife. Like Jesus, he acted as high priest offering his life for another. Adam is the first sacrifice made for sin, done by his own hand, and the first priest, offering that sacrifice to God.
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, [Exo 12:5]
It was Adam's own decision, and here is the transgression, he made the decision knowing full well he would die, and that he would lose his dominion, but knowing God, in hope, that this would save Eve and her children and all of creation.
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. [Rom 8:21]
Therefore, he is a figure [the spitting image] of the one to come, for no greater love hath man than he lay down his life for his friends.
None of this in any way resembles Heylel, the Shining One, of Isaiah 14, who also walked in the garden.
Adam, the first human Christ bearer, is the lamb slain from the casting down of the world order of God. It is his death that casts down the order set up by God where Adam would rule. All those written in the Book of life of this lamb is all of humanity, awaiting their order of salvation given to them by their kinsman Redeemer, the Son of Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. [Heb 2:14, 15]
I've heard this one befoer, not sure I agree with it partly because of the verse you quoted where the sin didn't begin when Adam ate of the tree, but when Eve ate of it. Note that when she ate, nothing happened. Knowledge didn't affect her until Adam ate . . .my question then is, which was worse, Adam "eating" of the tree's fruit, or receiving the fruit from Eve and then eating it. He didn't take fruit on his own, he only ate what she had already picked and eaten.
Thing of it is, "if" Adam was as wise and fore-knowing as this theory implies, where he wasn't deceived but he "chose" to rebel because he felt he needed to pay for her weakness, why then didn't he, in all that wisdom, take the issue up with God? Why didn't he just turn down her offer and let God deal with it? Wouldn't "that" have been what wisdom would have done?
There are many unanswered questions and unless we just let God show us what the purpose of all of it was directly, our reasoning may never find rest at all.
But for me, when I look at it as Adam being spirit and Eve being soul, it kinda reveals the problem that led to the separation. Spirit should NEVER "RECEIVE" from flesh. Which coincides with what Paul stated about women being silent in the church. "What?" "Know ye not that YOU are a temple of the Holy Ghost?" It all just seems to fall in to place. When Noah found the ark coming to rest (Noah literally means rest as well) when the ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat, it was another signpost pointing to the finished works of the cross. Ararat means the curse is reversed. What's the curse? It was when Adam took the fruit of knowledge . . Eve is directily connected to the "mind" which relies on knowledge, but Adam represents "spirit" and when Spirit submits to knowledge, it throws the original order of God out of alignment. Which brought on the curse. Jesus reverses the curse by coming in the flesh and redeeming flesh back to the Father . . .he was the flood that covered the earth. That act wiped out the power of carnality in man . . .sin was "taken away" as John the Baptist proclaimed. And as 1 John 3 states, because his light is in us, we can not sin. It's not that sin doesn't still exist IN THIS REALM, it means that the carnality, which is the drive force that leads us to sin . . .it no longer has power over us.
That for me has a much more profound affect on my than just concerning myself with whether or not what is literally written has literally happened. I'm not saying it didn't, I'm saying the power of what's been written lies beneath what we can read with natural eyes and thought. Not by might, not by power . . . .
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2011, 06:32:50 PM
I don't see that. Should Adam have been made in God"s image, there would never have been the "fall" you speak of, I don't believe that God would have eaten of the fruit.
I don't try to find indifference, its just that all the old "stories," have left my heart to wonder.
TT
I'm just quoting scripture. We each have our interpretation of that image.
Thus the error of our path. And yes you are just quoting scripture as we all do, but what good is "just quoting" scripture?
I have known and know brothers and sister who have memorized scripture and quote it, in my opinion that is good for the individual. :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2011, 07:56:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2011, 05:43:57 PM
Quote from: CardinalAdam was not deceived because he was a priest, and as a High Priest he sacrificed himself for her, knowing that the Father would not suffer his son to see corruption (forever), and so would ultimately raise him up (and since they were one, her with him). The laying down of one's life IS the nature of the Spirit, and symbolically what the High Priest as a type of Head does once a year on the Day of Atonement, where he sacrifices for his sins AND the sins of the people ("Eve" the body), then risks his life by going into His presence in their place. This is the pure motive of the heart, the laying down of one's life for another.
Essentially, what he was doing, was "lowering" himself to take on the image of flesh via the death of sin. My Blessings...
Adam was without sin before he partook of the tree, nor was he deceived. It was Eve who sinned.
And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. [1 Tim 2:14]
Thus, Adam as the firstborn without spot or blemish was able to offer himself for his wife. Like Jesus, he acted as high priest offering his life for another. Adam is the first sacrifice made for sin, done by his own hand, and the first priest, offering that sacrifice to God.
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, [Exo 12:5]
It was Adam's own decision, and here is the transgression, he made the decision knowing full well he would die, and that he would lose his dominion, but knowing God, in hope, that this would save Eve and her children and all of creation.
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. [Rom 8:21]
Therefore, he is a figure [the spitting image] of the one to come, for no greater love hath man than he lay down his life for his friends.
None of this in any way resembles Heylel, the Shining One, of Isaiah 14, who also walked in the garden.
Adam, the first human Christ bearer, is the lamb slain from the casting down of the world order of God. It is his death that casts down the order set up by God where Adam would rule. All those written in the Book of life of this lamb is all of humanity, awaiting their order of salvation given to them by their kinsman Redeemer, the Son of Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. [Heb 2:14, 15]
I've heard this one befoer, not sure I agree with it partly because of the verse you quoted where the sin didn't begin when Adam ate of the tree, but when Eve ate of it. Note that when she ate, nothing happened. Knowledge didn't affect her until Adam ate . . .my question then is, which was worse, Adam "eating" of the tree's fruit, or receiving the fruit from Eve and then eating it. He didn't take fruit on his own, he only ate what she had already picked and eaten.
Thing of it is, "if" Adam was as wise and fore-knowing as this theory implies, where he wasn't deceived but he "chose" to rebel because he felt he needed to pay for her weakness, why then didn't he, in all that wisdom, take the issue up with God? Why didn't he just turn down her offer and let God deal with it? Wouldn't "that" have been what wisdom would have done?
There are many unanswered questions and unless we just let God show us what the purpose of all of it was directly, our reasoning may never find rest at all.
But for me, when I look at it as Adam being spirit and Eve being soul, it kinda reveals the problem that led to the separation. Spirit should NEVER
Gen 2:23 and the man saith, `This is the proper step!
bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh!' for this it is called Woman, for from a man hath this been taken;
Gen 2:24 therefore doth a man leave his father and his mother, and hath cleaved unto his wife, and
they have become one flesh. I remain totally outside looking in about this "theological and religious hypothesis" of this "spirit-soul-man-woman." In my opinion when ever it is attempted to be explained, it all seems to come from how one sees it and has a desire for me and others to see it that way. I have honestly tried and it is just very un solid and very evasive, and anymore its not just looking through a glass darkly. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 08:00:50 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2011, 06:32:50 PM
I don't see that. Should Adam have been made in God"s image, there would never have been the "fall" you speak of, I don't believe that God would have eaten of the fruit.
I don't try to find indifference, its just that all the old "stories," have left my heart to wonder.
TT
I'm just quoting scripture. We each have our interpretation of that image.
Thus the error of our path. And yes you are just quoting scripture as we all do, but what good is "just quoting" scripture?
I have known and know brothers and sister who have memorized scripture and quote it, in my opinion that is good for the individual. :icon_flower:
Okay, if you disagree that Adam was made in God's image, how do "you" understand the verse that says that man was made in God's image?
And the post you responded to from me wasn't completed . . it somehow posted while I was in the middle of writing it. I've since edited it. And I don't deny "desiring" others to see what I see and how I see it . . .don't see anything wrong with having a desire for others to see what I'm saying . . .otherwise, what's the point of saying it at all? I'm not trying to force you to see it, I'm not condemning you if you don't see it . . .but of course I have a desire that you "would" see it. Doesn't everyone???
Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2011, 08:16:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 08:00:50 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2011, 06:32:50 PM
I don't see that. Should Adam have been made in God"s image, there would never have been the "fall" you speak of, I don't believe that God would have eaten of the fruit.
I don't try to find indifference, its just that all the old "stories," have left my heart to wonder.
TT
I'm just quoting scripture. We each have our interpretation of that image.
Thus the error of our path. And yes you are just quoting scripture as we all do, but what good is "just quoting" scripture?
I have known and know brothers and sister who have memorized scripture and quote it, in my opinion that is good for the individual. :icon_flower:
Okay, if you disagree that Adam was made in God's image, how do "you" understand the verse that says that man was made in God's image?
And the post you responded to from me wasn't completed . . it somehow posted while I was in the middle of writing it. I've since edited it. And I don't deny "desiring" others to see what I see and how I see it . . .don't see anything wrong with having a desire for others to see what I'm saying . . .otherwise, what's the point of saying it at all? I'm not trying to force you to see it, I'm not condemning you if you don't see it . . .but of course I have a desire that you "would" see it. Doesn't everyone???
My disagreement is that man in Genesis 1 is not that that man wasn't made the image of "us(God)," but the way I see and understand and reason, is that that man is not finished. To use part of Molly's post... Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2]
Should it be true that we/man was made in the image and likeness of "us(God)" there is no way that man would have ate of the tree of K of G and E.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 09:08:15 PM
Quote from: Nathan on November 12, 2011, 08:16:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 12, 2011, 08:00:50 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 12, 2011, 06:32:50 PM
I don't see that. Should Adam have been made in God"s image, there would never have been the "fall" you speak of, I don't believe that God would have eaten of the fruit.
I don't try to find indifference, its just that all the old "stories," have left my heart to wonder.
TT
I'm just quoting scripture. We each have our interpretation of that image.
Thus the error of our path. And yes you are just quoting scripture as we all do, but what good is "just quoting" scripture?
I have known and know brothers and sister who have memorized scripture and quote it, in my opinion that is good for the individual. :icon_flower:
Okay, if you disagree that Adam was made in God's image, how do "you" understand the verse that says that man was made in God's image?
And the post you responded to from me wasn't completed . . it somehow posted while I was in the middle of writing it. I've since edited it. And I don't deny "desiring" others to see what I see and how I see it . . .don't see anything wrong with having a desire for others to see what I'm saying . . .otherwise, what's the point of saying it at all? I'm not trying to force you to see it, I'm not condemning you if you don't see it . . .but of course I have a desire that you "would" see it. Doesn't everyone???
My disagreement is that man in Genesis 1 is not that that man wasn't made the image of "us(God)," but the way I see and understand and reason, is that that man is not finished. To use part of Molly's post... Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2]
Should it be true that we/man was made in the image and likeness of "us(God)" there is no way that man would have ate of the tree of K of G and E.
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man
has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"
Micah I think I agree with what you're saying, otherwise they wouldn't have become like God by eating the fruit, I think you're saying they made an error and wouldn't have if they were already in the image, I agree it was an error(on their part not on Gods), but I think this points out that it was necessary for the becoming like God, there is no plan B
WHY would God need a plan "b"?
The man of Genesis 1 is being worked out in man/adam the living soul of Gen.2.
Rev 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
God/the Creator/ the Father/ the Son did not begin what HE began with being fully in charge of ALL the goings on before, now, and the end.
Rev 1:8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 13, 2011, 12:27:06 AM
WHY would God need a plan "b"?
The man of Genesis 1 is being worked out in man/adam the living soul of Gen.2.
Rev 13:8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
God/the Creator/ the Father/ the Son did not begin what HE began with being fully in charge of ALL the goings on before, now, and the end.
Rev 1:8 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming--the Almighty.'
I'm saying there is no plan B, they were in error in taking the fruit at that point, but it was no mistake on Gods part.
The most telling thing about Adam being kicked out of the garden is that the LORD left the garden with him.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Psa 8:4]
Eve
"Lets eat the tree adam, it looks good and makes one wise"
Adam
"ok"
Not much of a sacrifice. Sorry but maybe the knight in shining army turns out to be a frog.
Revelation 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2011, 06:28:54 PM
Fallen Angels
And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.[Jude 1:6
Corrupted Revelation perverted into man-made religions.
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 03:55:46 AM
The most telling thing about Adam being kicked out of the garden is that the LORD left the garden with him.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Psa 8:4]
Still trying to digest this one . . .If the Lord is omni-present . . .is he not in the garden AND with Adam as well? The only time I can see him leaving the garden was when he became flesh . . .and as soon as he accomplished what he set out to do, he left this realm to return back to the garden . . .at which point, the garden then was poured out upon all flesh . . .quite the circle of life we have going on here . .yes??
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2011, 04:26:10 AM
Eve
"Lets eat the tree adam, it looks good and makes one wise"
Adam
"ok"
Not much of a sacrifice. Sorry but maybe the knight in shining army turns out to be a frog.
Revelation 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
""Lets eat the tree adam, it looks good and makes one wise"
Adam
"ok" TT
I fail to see your conversation in these translations. And would you desire more?
Genesis 3:6
(ASV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat;
and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
(CLV) And seeing is the woman that the tree is good for food, and that it brings a yearning to the eyes, and is to be coveted as the tree to make one intelligent. And taking is she of its fruit and is eating,
and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating."
(KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and
gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
(Rotherham) And, when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was desirable to the eyes and the tree was pleasant to make one knowing, then took she of the fruit thereof, and did eat,
and she gave to her husband also, along with her, and he did eat.
(YLT) And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and
giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;
Quote from: Nathan on November 13, 2011, 07:00:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 03:55:46 AM
The most telling thing about Adam being kicked out of the garden is that the LORD left the garden with him.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Psa 8:4]
Still trying to digest this one . . .If the Lord is omni-present . . .is he not in the garden AND with Adam as well? The only time I can see him leaving the garden was when he became flesh . . .and as soon as he accomplished what he set out to do, he left this realm to return back to the garden . . .at which point, the garden then was poured out upon all flesh . . .quite the circle of life we have going on here . .yes??
It is my humble opinion that God IS the garden, God IS adam. He NEVER left the garden, whether it is this realm as you speak or a realm that we/you do not consider. God is in everything God is everything.
Quote from: Nathan on November 13, 2011, 07:00:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 03:55:46 AM
The most telling thing about Adam being kicked out of the garden is that the LORD left the garden with him.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Psa 8:4]
Still trying to digest this one . . .If the Lord is omni-present . . .is he not in the garden AND with Adam as well? The only time I can see him leaving the garden was when he became flesh . . .and as soon as he accomplished what he set out to do, he left this realm to return back to the garden . . .at which point, the garden then was poured out upon all flesh . . .quite the circle of life we have going on here . .yes??
In Gen 2 and 3, we see the LORD God [YHWH elohiym] in the garden with Adam.
In Gen 4, Adam is outside the garden, and it is the LORD [YHWH] who is outside the garden talking with the sons of Adam.
Then, the LORD sends Cain out of his presence to a place that is in another part of the earth, causing Cain to fear for his life from those who would kill him out there.
Quote from: Nathan on November 13, 2011, 07:00:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 03:55:46 AM
The most telling thing about Adam being kicked out of the garden is that the LORD left the garden with him.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Psa 8:4]
Still trying to digest this one . . .If the Lord is omni-present . . .is he not in the garden AND with Adam as well? The only time I can see him leaving the garden was when he became flesh . . .and as soon as he accomplished what he set out to do, he left this realm to return back to the garden . . .at which point, the garden then was poured out upon all flesh . . .quite the circle of life we have going on here . .yes??
I thought, when I read this, that what was being said was that God went with Adam, as in..."in Him we live and breath and have our being" ... as in "if I make my bed in sheol thou art with me".... as in "forgive them Father they know not what they do".... not as in "God was longer in the garden". Now I am all confused.... :grin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 13, 2011, 08:12:52 AM
Quote from: Nathan on November 13, 2011, 07:00:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 03:55:46 AM
The most telling thing about Adam being kicked out of the garden is that the LORD left the garden with him.
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? [Psa 8:4]
Still trying to digest this one . . .If the Lord is omni-present . . .is he not in the garden AND with Adam as well? The only time I can see him leaving the garden was when he became flesh . . .and as soon as he accomplished what he set out to do, he left this realm to return back to the garden . . .at which point, the garden then was poured out upon all flesh . . .quite the circle of life we have going on here . .yes??
It is my humble opinion that God IS the garden, God IS adam. He NEVER left the garden, whether it is this realm as you speak or a realm that we/you do not consider. God is in everything God is everything.
God is omnipresent, however I think you do not see the dividing line between his works of his hands and his presence.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 13, 2011, 08:06:02 AM
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2011, 04:26:10 AM
Eve
"Lets eat the tree adam, it looks good and makes one wise"
Adam
"ok"
Not much of a sacrifice. Sorry but maybe the knight in shining army turns out to be a frog.
Revelation 16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
""Lets eat the tree adam, it looks good and makes one wise"
Adam
"ok" TT
I fail to see your conversation in these translations. And would you desire more?
Genesis 3:6
(ASV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.
(CLV) And seeing is the woman that the tree is good for food, and that it brings a yearning to the eyes, and is to be coveted as the tree to make one intelligent. And taking is she of its fruit and is eating, and she is giving, moreover, to her husband with her, and they are eating."
(KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
(Rotherham) And, when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was desirable to the eyes and the tree was pleasant to make one knowing, then took she of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and she gave to her husband also, along with her, and he did eat.
(YLT) And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;
Failing to see that, you must see greater failure in the idea that Adam sacrificed himself for Eve.
In the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise.
There is no talk of saving Eves children or Eve herself.
The bible says that in Adam all die. He is the one that brought death to mankind, his sacrifice saved nothing, it was Father who sent Jesus who made the sacrifice to save Adams children. Mankind was nearly wiped out during Noahs day, till gods grace intervened.
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2011, 05:42:00 PM
:cloud9: I totally understand what you are saying. But......what he did was "good", which is STILL eating of the wrong tree, which produces death. We can have a right motive, but if the Lord didn't tell us to do something, it still produces death. IF the Lord by His breath had told him to do it, there would have been no sin.
He was perceiving thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) what the Lord does, in the laying down of life. It's the same thing as doing good works without faith (which comes from the Spirit speaking), which still is death, or death-producing.
Every think about the fact the VEIL had winged (which means feathers, a type of covering) cherubims woven into it by His decree? Blessings....
the veil having wings woven into it.....images of what lay within......
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Through the veil, as we enfold the hope of eternal life, seeing things eye and ear cannot perceive, in the spirit of wisdom and revelation, speaking the hidden wisdom, breaking bread with hidden manna, sharing in the sufferings if Christ, staedfastly beholding the image within and being transformed, with ever-increasing glory, by the Spirit, who is the Lord!
Quote from: TTIn the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise
It can't be that, TT, though, because...we are told that Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, Adam did not believe any of the Shining One's lies.
Therefore, we have to ascribe a different motive to Adam.
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
this might be the best woman/soul connection I've seen (sorry Micah :winkgrin:)
But what about the vocabulary in Genesis 3? Isn't the chapter crystal clear that the thing
talking to Eve was a snake? Actually, the vocabulary is clear, but the meaning tradition
has given it is not, and has in fact produced the "snake" problem noted above. The
Hebrew word translated "serpent" or "snake" in Genesis 3 is nachash (pronounced,
nakash). More specifically, the word is ha-nachash. The prefixed "ha" is the way
Hebrew denotes a definite article (the word for "the"). So ha-nachash may be said to
mean "the nachash."
The word nachash is a very elastic term in Hebrew. It can function as a noun, a verb, or
even as an adjective. When nachash functions as a noun it means "snake," and so the
traditional translation is possible—but it yields the contradiction with Ezekiel 28 and
Isaiah 14 noted above.iv When nachash serves as a verb it means "to practice
divination."v That meaning could also be possible in Genesis 3 due to the deception or
going on—Lucifer claiming to have the "real" word from God. When a verb receives an
article attached to it, the action of the verb is then transformed into a person doing the
action. Hence the word ha-nachash would then best be translated "the diviner."
The third option—the adjectival meaning of nachash—is the solution to the contradiction
problem. When nachash serves as adjective, it's meaning is "shining bronze" or
"polished" (as in "shiny"). By adding the article to the word, ha-nachash would then
quite easily mean "the shining one." Angelic or divine beings are elsewhere described in
the Bible as "shining" or luminous, at times with this very word, nachash.vi We often
don't think about how common this vocabulary of "shining brilliance" is for angels and
other divine beings. The Bible abounds with descriptions of such beings as "flashing" or
"as lightning," or uses the brilliance of jewels to describe the blazing appearance of such
beings. This has important ramifications for solving the "snake" problem.
What's so significant about translating ha-nachash as "shining one" and not "snake" in
Genesis 3? Very simply, "shining one" is the literal meaning of "Lucifer." The name
"Lucifer" is actually Latin and comes from the Latin Vulgate translation of the Hebrew
Old Testament. In Isaiah 14:12, the Hebrew name of primeval conspirator against God is
"Helel ben-Shachar"—"Shining One, son of the Dawn." Translating ha-nachash as
"Shining One" removes the contradiction of seeing a snake vs. a supernatural being in
Eden since it provides an explicit parallel between the two passages.
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/nachashnotes.pdf
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
[1Pet 4:8]...love covers a multitude of sins.
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: TTIn the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise
It can't be that, TT, though, because...we are told that Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, Adam did not believe any of the Shining One's lies.
Therefore, we have to ascribe a different motive to Adam.
Where?
I have seen scripture which spoke of Eve was in the transgression. She was deceived by the serpent, but Adams pride led him to desire dominion as the beast, lucifer?
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
The beast gains the world, by taking the serpents bait, but forfeits his soul.
In Adam all die.
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2011, 08:40:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: TTIn the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise
It can't be that, TT, though, because...we are told that Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, Adam did not believe any of the Shining One's lies.
Therefore, we have to ascribe a different motive to Adam.
Where?
I have seen scripture which spoke of Eve was in the transgression. She was deceived by the serpent, but Adams pride led him to desire dominion as the beast, lucifer?
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
The beast gains the world, by taking the serpents bait, but forfeits his soul.
In Adam all die.
where?
Adam....who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]
Is Christ a beast?
No he doesn't forfeit his soul because love covers a multitude of sins. Nor is he ever accused of pride.
Rather, we see the LORD outside the garden with Adam, instructing his sons.
Our Redeemer has always been our kinsman.
He has sent redemption to His people; He has ordained His covenant forever; holy and awesome is His name. (Psalm 111:9).
Quote from: redhotmagma on November 13, 2011, 07:53:37 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
this might be the best woman/soul connection I've seen (sorry Micah :winkgrin:)
What good it would it be for a man it he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his "life."
There is absolutely no connection to a woman/soul, except (opinion of mine) when man continues to see the NT "soul" as something other than the what the "beginning" meant a soul(living, breathing creature) to be.
Lev 17:14 for
the soul of all flesh is its blood;
as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat,
for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off. CLT
Lev 17:14 For it is
the life of all flesh; the blood of it
is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh:
for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off. KJV
soul.H5315 a breathing creature
Personally(my opinion) when religious and theologians want some thing to change to make mans intellect and imagination kick in and lead men [even a little] off the the truth in understanding, they will. A soul is a living breathing creature, man is a living soul, a rabbit is a living soul, a snake is a living soul(all though a snake is also addressed to be beast of the field). :dontknow:
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 08:58:57 PM
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2011, 08:40:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: TTIn the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise
It can't be that, TT, though, because...we are told that Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, Adam did not believe any of the Shining One's lies.
Therefore, we have to ascribe a different motive to Adam.
Where?
I have seen scripture which spoke of Eve was in the transgression. She was deceived by the serpent, but Adams pride led him to desire dominion as the beast, lucifer?
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
The beast gains the world, by taking the serpents bait, but forfeits his soul.
In Adam all die.
where?
Adam....who is the figure of him that was to come. [Rom 5:14]
Is Christ a beast?
No he doesn't forfeit his soul because love covers a multitude of sins. Nor is he ever accused of pride.
Rather, we see the LORD outside the garden with Adam, instructing his sons.
Our Redeemer has always been our kinsman.
He has sent redemption to His people; He has ordained His covenant forever; holy and awesome is His name. (Psalm 111:9).
If christ had taken the same temptation as Adam in the wilderness, then Christ would have become as a beast led by the serpent.
But Christ resisted the devils temptations.
If lucifer is Adam, then pride is there in the text, wanting to become as God. If translation is correct, the son of the morning star.
Adam and eve desired to become wise as god, knowing good and evil.
Christ was kinsman reedemer after becoming in the likeness of men, the seed of Abraham. Growing up as a human, child, God experiencing life as a human being. For do we not have a high priest who was touched in the same manner as we are?
Quote from: thinktank on November 13, 2011, 10:43:56 PM
But Christ resisted the devils temptations.
lol,
Impervious is the understanding to His Strength.
Quote from: TTChrist was kinsman reedemer after becoming in the likeness of men, the seed of Abraham. Growing up as a human, child, God experiencing life as a human being. For do we not have a high priest who was touched in the same manner as we are?
This is kind of interesting, because it is written, Adam is
the son of God.
By law a man can only be redeemed by his near kinsman.
Isaiah 63:16 But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: TTIn the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise
It can't be that, TT, though, because...we are told that Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, Adam did not believe any of the Shining One's lies.
Therefore, we have to ascribe a different motive to Adam.
Rom 5:14-18 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (15) But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. (16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. (17) For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Adam's transgression was disobedience, an offense that resulted in death to all. His motive was self.
Jesus, the pattern son, testified, "i come to do Thy will O God" and "Zeal for Thine house consumes me"...."Nevertheless not my will but Thine be done
A sacrifice that resulted in life for all
We are called into conformity with the sacrifice of the son
Rom 12:1-2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (2) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God
If anyone would be my disciple, let them take up their cross, and come follow me.
This is how we join the Door, and become Gates
If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself........ Be lifted up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors, that the King of Glory may come in.
Quote from: EagleswayHis motive was self
How do you know this?
Adam was a pattern of the one to come.
"The Greek translation of the word "pattern" is "tupos" which is defined as:
An impression made by a stamp, an exact image, an exact model, a copy, a type, an example. In context, the phrase "who is a pattern of the coming one" ("ejstin tuvpo tou' mevllonto hos estin tupos tou mellontos") refers to Adam as
a copy of Christ."
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2011, 12:50:15 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 13, 2011, 07:18:40 PM
Quote from: TTIn the conversation I did, I highlighted that Adam took Eves lead of eating the fruit due to the suggestion that it makes one wise
It can't be that, TT, though, because...we are told that Adam was not deceived.
Therefore, Adam did not believe any of the Shining One's lies.
Therefore, we have to ascribe a different motive to Adam.
Rom 5:14-18 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (15) But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. (16) And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. (17) For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
(18) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
Adam's transgression was disobedience, an offense that resulted in death to all. His motive was self.
Jesus, the pattern son, testified, "i come to do Thy will O God" and "Zeal for Thine house consumes me"...."Nevertheless not my will but Thine be done
A sacrifice that resulted in life for all
We are called into conformity with the sacrifice of the son
Rom 12:1-2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (2) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God
If anyone would be my disciple, let them take up their cross, and come follow me.
This is how we join the Door, and become Gates
If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself........ Be lifted up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors, that the King of Glory may come in.
GLORY! I do so love what you posted! Glory! Glory! "
Be lifted up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors, that the King of Glory may come in.
Do you think then that Adam is very much like Christ --
So with that base, does that mean you entertain the idea that human Christ could have failed, just like Adam?
I think what your saying is that Adam is infallible, because hes made in Gods image, therefore sacrificed himself to save Eve.
I guess the fallibility is based on two weaknesses
1. Adams image is not the same quality AS cHRISTS. A bit like the difference between 22karat gold and 18 karat gold, Christ is perfection ,but
2. Christ was fallible, and therefore Adam in his image is also fallible (Maybe Jesus Christ being the Son the first born is fallible, due to his inexperience as a God :dontknow:
3. Micahs theory :bigGrin: that Adam was not immediately made in Gods image, but a prophetic word of promise that is being processed through the dispensations of time, so in Adams time the image was that of incompletion.
4. Something else not thought of, beyond thinktank
I think its number 1, since Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil.
I predict micah will pick number 3 and Molly number 0 :laughing7:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 13, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 12, 2011, 05:42:00 PM
:cloud9: I totally understand what you are saying. But......what he did was "good", which is STILL eating of the wrong tree, which produces death. We can have a right motive, but if the Lord didn't tell us to do something, it still produces death. IF the Lord by His breath had told him to do it, there would have been no sin.
He was perceiving thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) what the Lord does, in the laying down of life. It's the same thing as doing good works without faith (which comes from the Spirit speaking), which still is death, or death-producing.
Every think about the fact the VEIL had winged (which means feathers, a type of covering) cherubims woven into it by His decree? Blessings....
the veil having wings woven into it.....images of what lay within......
Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Through the veil, as we enfold the hope of eternal life, seeing things eye and ear cannot perceive, in the spirit of wisdom and revelation, speaking the hidden wisdom, breaking bread with hidden manna, sharing in the sufferings if Christ, staedfastly beholding the image within and being transformed, with ever-increasing glory, by the Spirit, who is the Lord!
Very well said! You do have a way with words my friend! :HeartThrob:
What is this "Mind of Christ" the Scriptures speak of?
Does It, also, see through the glass darkly?
The glass is a mirror.
So, consider this.
You are looking into a darkened mirror.
And you can't quite make out the reflection.
But, someday, you will see the reflection clearly,
and it will be christ.
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' [Mat 25:40]
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 13, 2011, 06:32:05 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 12, 2011, 06:28:54 PM
Fallen Angels
And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.[Jude 1:6
Corrupted Revelation perverted into man-made religions.
Alas! the Book of Enoch.
...let alone Protestantism and Catholicism.
Quote from: Molly on November 14, 2011, 06:02:17 AM
The glass is a mirror.
So, consider this.
You are looking into a darkened mirror.
And you can't quite make out the reflection.
But, someday, you will see the reflection clearly,
and it will be christ.
The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' [Mat 25:40]
The refiners fire...
Gold only reflects when it is pure!
THEN...
We see Ourselves in His Image!
Behold! He looks like Me!
!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 14, 2011, 05:54:58 AM
What is this "Mind of Christ" the Scriptures speak of?
Does It, also, see through the glass darkly?
"What is this "Mind of Christ" the Scriptures speak of?" Beloved Servant
CRYSTAL AS IN UNBEARABLY CLEAR!
"Does It, also, see through the glass darkly?"
NO! There is no darkness of light, there is no light brighter, I know there is a verse of scripture that says this, I cannot find the words to find it. The Christ does not know what a blurred vision could even possibly be. There are NO shadows in His Vision.
Quote from: thinktank on November 14, 2011, 03:25:17 AM
Do you think then that Adam is very much like Christ --
So with that base, does that mean you entertain the idea that human Christ could have failed, just like Adam?
I think what your saying is that Adam is infallible, because hes made in Gods image, therefore sacrificed himself to save Eve.
I guess the fallibility is based on two weaknesses
1. Adams image is not the same quality AS cHRISTS. A bit like the difference between 22karat gold and 18 karat gold, Christ is perfection ,but
2. Christ was fallible, and therefore Adam in his image is also fallible (Maybe Jesus Christ being the Son the first born is fallible, due to his inexperience as a God :dontknow:
3. Micahs theory :bigGrin: that Adam was not immediately made in Gods image, but a prophetic word of promise that is being processed through the dispensations of time, so in Adams time the image was that of incompletion.
4. Something else not thought of, beyond thinktank
I think its number 1, since Adam did not have knowledge of good and evil.
I predict micah will pick number 3 and Molly number 0 :laughing7:
I hate to inject the idea of free will, but I must, because it is a key to understanding all that God has done :o) Adam failed, through the exercise of a free will, Christ could have failed, but did not, through the exercise of a free will.
It is written in the volume of the book of me, I come to do Thy will O God!
This is the glorious liberty of the sons of God......many sons unto glory, perfected as their Captain was perfected- learning obedience through the things they suffer.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2011, 07:05:22 AM
I hate to inject the idea of free will
me too :laugh2: :rolllol:
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2011, 06:23:57 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 14, 2011, 05:54:58 AM
What is this "Mind of Christ" the Scriptures speak of?
Does It, also, see through the glass darkly?
"What is this "Mind of Christ" the Scriptures speak of?" Beloved Servant
CRYSTAL AS IN UNBEARABLY CLEAR!
"Does It, also, see through the glass darkly?"
NO! There is no darkness of light, there is no light brighter, I know there is a verse of scripture that says this, I cannot find the words to find it. The Christ does not know what a blurred vision could even possibly be. There are NO shadows in His Vision.
Yet Paul, who has the mind of Christ makes clear that veils remain
"If anyone thinks they know anything, they know not yet as they ought to know"
and
"Now we know in part"
Then we shall know as we are known.
When will we know as we are known? Upon the adoption of sons, even the redemption of our bodies! On the day when we are completed in the image of Christ, the image of God.
I aint new here but a door was opened and by the grace of God Im jumping in. Praise His Name!
"Adam failed, through the exercise of a free will, Christ could have failed, but did not, through the exercise of a free will." EW
Someone brought up or injected this consideration of "free will" not I. Adam, and especially Jesus Chirst had no "free will" as you attempt to reveal; such a thought is ludicrous and simply very far from any truth what so ever.
Adam, had NO free will, should he have had, then the whole concept of a God and Lord such like Yahweh with the sovereignty over ALL, as you would I am sure, admit He is, would and could not be. What ever "choice" adam/man made was certainly not our of the WILL of His Creator.
Further more, should Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World have made His own "choice" then He would have lied and slurred a disgrace to His Fathe, and I for one highly doubt that.
Joh 5:30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
Now I ask you is this making a "choice" or is this doing the the Fathers WILL? When we forget that The Existing One could be even the slightest out of the loop, we have lost the vision.
Pro 29:18 Where there is no vision, a people is let loose, but, he that keepeth instruction, how happy is he!
Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous--how well I know it.
--Psa 139:14
Psalm 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare.
You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. [Psa 139:16]
:soccer: alright, since the score is tied now at 1-1, I'm sure this can be further discussed in uh, more creative terms... :reachout:
thankyou...thankyouverymuuusch
(good scrips Mol)
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 14, 2011, 07:38:25 AM
I aint new here but a door was opened and by the grace of God Im jumping in. Praise His Name!
"Adam failed, through the exercise of a free will, Christ could have failed, but did not, through the exercise of a free will." EW
Someone brought up or injected this consideration of "free will" not I. Adam, and especially Jesus Chirst had no "free will" as you attempt to reveal; such a thought is ludicrous and simply very far from any truth what so ever.
Adam, had NO free will, should he have had, then the whole concept of a God and Lord such like Yahweh with the sovereignty over ALL, as you would I am sure, admit He is, would and could not be. What ever "choice" adam/man made was certainly not our of the WILL of His Creator.
Further more, should Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World have made His own "choice" then He would have lied and slurred a disgrace to His Fathe, and I for one highly doubt that.
Joh 5:30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
Now I ask you is this making a "choice" or is this doing the the Fathers WILL? When we forget that The Existing One could be even the slightest out of the loop, we have lost the vision.
Pro 29:18 Where there is no vision, a people is let loose, but, he that keepeth instruction, how happy is he!
IMO Freedom is the goal of creation, the finished work of the Son, and purpose of the priesthood of the sons of God. Jesus chose to do the Father's will. It is why He was spotless. If He could not choose, He could not be tempted, and the scripture says He was tempted in all manner like as we are. This is the reason He is qualified to be our High Priest, and sympathizes with our weakness. It does not follow logically that if God grants free will within His own parameters, that He has left himself out of the loop. Such loops are our creation not His. His ways are greater than our ways. The one whom the son sets free is free indeed(that means for real). Someday the whole creation will be free. Love is all about free will- it is what we are growing into. God's will is like the rushing of many waters, it is the definition of free. The wind blows where it wills,but it knows not where it goes or from whence it came, SO IT IS with everyone who is born of the spirit. This is not some fake freedom, or play on words. However, rather than incur some sort of ban, this is my last comment on the subject. I have no axe to grind about it, and believe there are shades of the whole truth scattered within several viewpoints on the subject. Therefore, as a son, and an heir of God in Christ, I am free to choose to speak of it no more :o)
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
:cloud9: Wow.....love this Sheila :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
IMO Freedom is the goal of creation
:cloud9: Wow.....love this eaglesway :thumbsup:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 15, 2011, 05:44:49 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 14, 2011, 08:39:07 AM
IMO Freedom is the goal of creation
:cloud9: Wow.....love this eaglesway :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob: :msealed: :happygrin:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
:cloud9: Wow.....love this Sheila :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Not sure how you meant it, but I heard it as a witness to what happened in the garden, loud and clear. Adam wasn't willing to forfeit his soul so he could maintain dominion,which would have been the epitome of selfishness.
In opinion, that is not so. "Adam wasn't willing to forfeit his soul ..." Cardindal he /adam was only a soul.
"Jesus chose to do the Father's will." Eagleswings
Jesus was the Fathers Will, no choosing. [my opinion]
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 15, 2011, 10:53:46 PM
Jesus was the Fathers Will, no choosing. [my opinion]
Mine too.
Quote from: Taffy on November 12, 2011, 01:52:08 AM
QuoteSome may be singing a differnt pitch, but it harmonizes with the lyrics of God in us.
:icon_flower:
Well that's just beautiful Nathan and Taffy. :icon_flower:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 17, 2011, 02:10:05 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 15, 2011, 11:01:58 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 15, 2011, 10:56:23 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 15, 2011, 10:53:46 PM
Jesus was the Fathers Will, no choosing. [my opinion]
Mine too.
:dsunny:
Splitting hairs, semantics, in my opinion (no offense intended :o)
No offence, but in my opinion I dont see the splitting of hairs and semantics?
"Jesus chose.."? I do not see a choice here at all, I'm sorry. Perhaps I should have said Jesus
is the Fathers Will. I dont understand how you say its splitting of hairs and semantics. Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. How or where did a choice come into place.
"Jesus chose to do the Father's will." Eagleswings
Jesus was the Fathers Will, no choosing. [my opinion]
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
:cloud9: Wow.....love this Sheila :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Not sure how you meant it, but I heard it as a witness to what happened in the garden, loud and clear. Adam wasn't willing to forfeit his soul so he could maintain dominion,which would have been the epitome of selfishness.
That reminds me of this verse, too.
Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [Lk 17:33]
Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2011, 05:38:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
:cloud9: Wow.....love this Sheila :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Not sure how you meant it, but I heard it as a witness to what happened in the garden, loud and clear. Adam wasn't willing to forfeit his soul so he could maintain dominion,which would have been the epitome of selfishness.
That reminds me of this verse, too.
Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [Lk 17:33]
Adam lost his life because he tried to save it. He ate, he died. We have to quit eating to find ours.
Just by way of explanation, I see Jesus as a man who had to struggle. I believe he fought that fight from the wellspring of love within his heart for his Father, but I don't think it was automatic or easy. I believe his choosing was a free will offering out of the abundance of his heart. However, how could he sympathize with our weakness if he did not know weakness.
Heb 5:7-8 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Choosing is an implicit part of obeying. Choosing is not a negative, it is a positive, when the choice is positive. The idea that Jesus never had to choose makes no sense to me at all. It is like a stain glass picture in an ornate church. It is beautiful but not real. It does not translate into tears. Tears equal pain.
Father, it it be your will, make this cup pass from me, but nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.
The struggle of Jesus, his dependence upon the Father, being strength perfected in weakness, is the key to our liberation, in my opinion. The beautified image of Jesus as always flowing out serenity and never struggling with the flesh is to me, unrealistic and unscriptural and belies the true nature of his victory.
"O you of little faith, how long must I bear with you?"
He was a man. He was tempted in all ways like as we are, yet without sin. He struggled with the world, the flesh, the devil and he overcame them and in doing so became the author of our salvation. Throughout that process, he made many choices- always the right ones for the right reasons, because of the abundance of his love. The captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering so that he could lead many sons unto glory- who are to be perfected through the same process, "learning obedience through the things they suffer". :2c:
Adam lost dominion because he wasn't willing to lay down his soul[living soul].Thus going into slavery to sin[spirit[abdicated position]
Jesus lay down His soul in order to take it back up again[gain kingdom/dominion] suffering death[soul poured out] in obediance[life-giving spirit]
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 17, 2011, 06:12:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2011, 05:38:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
:cloud9: Wow.....love this Sheila :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Not sure how you meant it, but I heard it as a witness to what happened in the garden, loud and clear. Adam wasn't willing to forfeit his soul so he could maintain dominion,which would have been the epitome of selfishness.
That reminds me of this verse, too.
Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [Lk 17:33]
Adam lost his life because he tried to save it. He ate, he died. We have to quit eating to find ours.
See, I don't see it that way. Adam died for Eve in the same way Christ died for the church.
Adam is a type of Christ. Both men did what they did out of love.
With Adam we see a literal fullfillment of ---if you die you will produce many seeds.
No children were born until they left the garden.
With Christ we see a spiritual fullfillment of the same thing.
I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. [Jn 12:24]
Quote from: sheila on November 17, 2011, 03:50:44 PM
Adam lost dominion because he wasn't willing to lay down his soul[living soul].Thus going into slavery to sin[spirit[abdicated position]
Jesus lay down His soul in order to take it back up again[gain kingdom/dominion] suffering death[soul poured out] in obediance[life-giving spirit]
:2c:
:cloud9: You know how when He quickens a scripture to you, you can't "hear" it any other way then (and I know you do)? Well, once I heard what you wrote, I can't hear this, this way, anymore. He's been shaking some things in Genesis for me, here lately. That's just where I am, at the moment, all things are subject to change, LOL.....
Quote from: eaglesway on November 17, 2011, 09:11:14 AM
Just by way of explanation, I see Jesus as a man who had to struggle. I believe he fought that fight from the wellspring of love within his heart for his Father, but I don't think it was automatic or easy. I believe his choosing was a free will offering out of the abundance of his heart. However, how could he sympathize with our weakness if he did not know weakness.
Heb 5:7-8 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Choosing is an implicit part of obeying. Choosing is not a negative, it is a positive, when the choice is positive. The idea that Jesus never had to choose makes no sense to me at all. It is like a stain glass picture in an ornate church. It is beautiful but not real. It does not translate into tears. Tears equal pain.
Father, it it be your will, make this cup pass from me, but nevertheless, not my will but yours be done.
The struggle of Jesus, his dependence upon the Father, being strength perfected in weakness, is the key to our liberation, in my opinion. The beautified image of Jesus as always flowing out serenity and never struggling with the flesh is to me, unrealistic and unscriptural and belies the true nature of his victory.
"O you of little faith, how long must I bear with you?"
He was a man. He was tempted in all ways like as we are, yet without sin. He struggled with the world, the flesh, the devil and he overcame them and in doing so became the author of our salvation. Throughout that process, he made many choices- always the right ones for the right reasons, because of the abundance of his love. The captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering so that he could lead many sons unto glory- who are to be perfected through the same process, "learning obedience through the things they suffer". :2c:
:cloud9: Exactly. :thumbsup: If He was already perfected, how does that in any way compare to what we have to go thru?
Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2011, 04:01:16 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 17, 2011, 06:12:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 17, 2011, 05:38:22 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on November 15, 2011, 03:48:30 PM
Quote from: sheila on November 13, 2011, 07:44:49 PM
Matthew 16;26...what good would it be for a man if he gain the whole world[dominion] but forfeits his soul
:cloud9: Wow.....love this Sheila :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Not sure how you meant it, but I heard it as a witness to what happened in the garden, loud and clear. Adam wasn't willing to forfeit his soul so he could maintain dominion,which would have been the epitome of selfishness.
That reminds me of this verse, too.
Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [Lk 17:33]
Adam lost his life because he tried to save it. He ate, he died. We have to quit eating to find ours.
See, I don't see it that way. Adam died for Eve in the same way Christ died for the church.
Adam is a type of Christ. Both men did what they did out of love.
With Adam we see a literal fullfillment of ---if you die you will produce many seeds.
No children were born until they left the garden.
With Christ we see a spiritual fullfillment of the same thing.
I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. [Jn 12:24]
:cloud9: I was never totally convinced of this, until I "heard" that scripture Sheila quoted the other day and He quickened it to me. Now I know with my "knower", and He can build upon this in me as He chooses. I just love it when He does that, LOL..... :happygrin:
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Question: This was given to them "before" they were driven out of the garden and on to the earth. The intent all along was for them to "rule over" the fish, the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals on the ground . . .is this not implying that it was God's intention all along for them to be living "on" the earth?
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
If they were "in" the garden, they were not driven from the garden until after they ate of knowledge. Could they have multiplied and filled the earth "from" the garden? Or did they "have to leave" the garden in order for this to be fulfilled? The fruit of the trees were to be their food, yet they were "in" the garden. Could it be they're nourishment could be harvested from the trees of the earth while they remained in the garden? Or did they "have" to be driven from the garden in order for them to accomplish this?
IMO Sin and death did not enter the sons of men because of a selfless act. God is not arbitrary. Its not, "You broke the rules so all mankind must suffer for it, even tho you had a good reason for it". God is all about reasons, he tries the reigns and the hearts. It is the secrets of our hearts that bear us up or tear us down. If Adams act was altruistic, it would not have brought death. He ate, not for her sake, but for his. He didnt want to lose her, and the comfort she brought him, and that same spirit is at the bottom of many expulsions from the garden even today. Only when everything, even our love for our spouse, is "made subject", "given up to", the living sacrifice- will life arise out of the relationship. Then the "tree of life" bears fruit beside the river that flows from underneath the throne. Perhaps, had Adam not ate [sic], when God came around and Adam said ,"What can we do?". God would have said, " Will you die for her?" Then Adam could have been crucified and Christ would not have been necessary.
LOL BLASPHEMY BLASPHEMY!!!
The woman/man ate........ simply.... it was HIS purpose.
Any other reason or way of thinking is admitting that God, the Lord God did not have, or lost His WILL in the matter.
How can any one really think, reason, or consider that man/woman had any say whatsoever in the deed? To do so is to weaken the Creator.
This work in the garden was not happenstance, He had and still has His plan and purpose which will be finished and completed; deep think it all you will, puzzle all your spiritual pieces together... to even linger on the thought that woman/man/adam made a choice, other than what the Master had set into motion, is truly under estimating JEHOVAH, in fact not believing in Him at all.
Either God, Elohiem, Jehovah, Jesus Christ is the BEGINNING and the END or He is naught, in the measurement of the whole of it ALL.
Sorry to the moderator, that was it.
All things work according to the counsel of His will, standing back in the big picture. That is obvious. We could end all discussions right there, of course. Yet, as we discuss the particular aspects of what took place, there are other perspectives. Why did David murder Uriah? Sure at the bottom of it was according to the plan of God. Why did Cain kill Able? Same thing. We can be assured that God has never lost His sovereignty in any momentary event or series of events. That does not mean that within that moment there are not issues that we can discuss without suggesting that God somehow fell out of the loop:o)
I think about all of us understand that the creation was not subjected to futility of its own will, but was subjected by God in hope that the whole creation will be set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the son of God. Yet, we have this whole terrific book of mysteries that we discuss in the process of discovering the many facets of what He has done through others-gaining perhaps, insight into what He is doing in us.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 18, 2011, 04:43:41 AM
IMO Sin and death did not enter the sons of men because of a selfless act. God is not arbitrary. Its not, "You broke the rules so all mankind must suffer for it, even tho you had a good reason for it". God is all about reasons, he tries the reigns and the hearts. It is the secrets of our hearts that bear us up or tear us down. If Adams act was altruistic, it would not have brought death. He ate, not for her sake, but for his. He didnt want to lose her, and the comfort she brought him, and that same spirit is at the bottom of many expulsions from the garden even today. Only when everything, even our love for our spouse, is "made subject", "given up to", the living sacrifice- will life arise out of the relationship. Then the "tree of life" bears fruit beside the river that flows from underneath the throne. Perhaps, had Adam not ate [sic], when God came around and Adam said ,"What can we do?". God would have said, " Will you die for her?" Then Adam could have been crucified and Christ would not have been necessary.
LOL BLASPHEMY BLASPHEMY!!!
:cloud9: If I may add a word of explanation........
This is how He works with me. I hear a scripture opened, the life in it revealed, and it doesn't matter one iota what came before (in my understanding), nor (blasphemy, blasphemy lol) how many UNOPENED scriptures SEEM to contradict what I heard.
He has been fine tuning my hearing, in that instead of the many opened scriptures it used to take to change my mind (as I wrestled all thru the night/darkness of my Jacobish/soulish nature looking for an outward manifestation I could "touch, see and feel" ie. more letter understanding), He has now cut down the wrestling time down to it only taking ONE opened scripture and there is no more wrestling (out of fear of being deceived or anything else) looking for others to back it up, but instead I rest knowing in His season at the appointed time He will bring the harvest of many.
So I'm sitting here, happy with my one scripture He opened the other day, anticipating a mighty harvest of scriptures that will reveal the principle from Genesis to Revelation, as do all of His principles. So until then, I'll be bowing out of the discussion, lol.....Blessings...
Quote from: eaglesway on November 18, 2011, 02:42:29 PM
All things work according to the counsel of His will, standing back in the big picture. That is obvious. We could end all discussions right there, of course. Yet, as we discuss the particular aspects of what took place, there are other perspectives. Why did David murder Uriah? Sure at the bottom of it was according to the plan of God. Why did Cain kill Able? Same thing. We can be assured that God has never lost His sovereignty in any momentary event or series of events. That does not mean that within that moment there are not issues that we can discuss without suggesting that God somehow fell out of the loop:o)
I think about all of us understand that the creation was not subjected to futility of its own will, but was subjected by God in hope that the whole creation will be set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the son of God. Yet, we have this whole terrific book of mysteries that we discuss in the process of discovering the many facets of what He has done through others-gaining perhaps, insight into what He is doing in us.
well said :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 18, 2011, 03:43:38 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 18, 2011, 04:43:41 AM
IMO Sin and death did not enter the sons of men because of a selfless act. God is not arbitrary. Its not, "You broke the rules so all mankind must suffer for it, even tho you had a good reason for it". God is all about reasons, he tries the reigns and the hearts. It is the secrets of our hearts that bear us up or tear us down. If Adams act was altruistic, it would not have brought death. He ate, not for her sake, but for his. He didnt want to lose her, and the comfort she brought him, and that same spirit is at the bottom of many expulsions from the garden even today. Only when everything, even our love for our spouse, is "made subject", "given up to", the living sacrifice- will life arise out of the relationship. Then the "tree of life" bears fruit beside the river that flows from underneath the throne. Perhaps, had Adam not ate [sic], when God came around and Adam said ,"What can we do?". God would have said, " Will you die for her?" Then Adam could have been crucified and Christ would not have been necessary.
LOL BLASPHEMY BLASPHEMY!!!
:cloud9: If I may add a word of explanation........
This is how He works with me. I hear a scripture opened, the life in it revealed, and it doesn't matter one iota what came before (in my understanding), nor (blasphemy, blasphemy lol) how many UNOPENED scriptures SEEM to contradict what I heard.
He has been fine tuning my hearing, in that instead of the many opened scriptures it used to take to change my mind (as I wrestled all thru the night/darkness of my Jacobish/soulish nature looking for an outward manifestation I could "touch, see and feel" ie. more letter understanding), He has now cut down the wrestling time down to it only taking ONE opened scripture and there is no more wrestling (out of fear of being deceived or anything else) looking for others to back it up, but instead I rest knowing in His season at the appointed time He will bring the harvest of many.
So I'm sitting here, happy with my one scripture He opened the other day, anticipating a mighty harvest of scriptures that will reveal the principle from Genesis to Revelation, as do all of His principles. So until then, I'll be bowing out of the discussion, lol.....Blessings...
Blessings :HeartThrob: My intention is not to debate-and I get blessed by about everything you share, and even if I disagree sometimes, the sharing and the exchange of ideas is edifying.
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/wholucifer.htm
I love when a verse of scripture or an article makes me think of something in a whole new way.
This is what happened to me reading the article at the web address that whitewings posted.
Here it is again one of those things that make you go, HHMMMM:
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/wholucifer.htm (http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/wholucifer.htm)
yes,the law and commandments taken out of the way...and grace freely given. also,scriptures that
speak of all things death and life..etc are yours..since He give us His son...shows the former
sin/tresspass against God..that took place in the garden..when Adam/Eve ate from the tree that
God reserved for Himself..was no longer being held against them..through Christ. The overcoming
the world/death that was in the tree okogae's; the antidote was the tol in Christ..the .grace of God
in Christ..the power to become the sons of God..the incorruptible.....the GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF
THE SONS OF GOD..AS HEIR OF ALL THINGS
one other thing...please discern..the teaching tool..or rod of discipline in the tokogae...known
as evil[a contrast of God and His goodness] Jesus preached the knowing of God as eternal life..taste and
know that God IS GOOD! AND COMING TO KNOW THE GOODNESS OF GOD...THAT HE IS LOVE
AND HAS GIVEN US HIS SON....AND BY HIS GRACE WE ARE SAVED FROM THE EVIL AND DEATH
IN THE TOKOGAE.
and as the law[tokogae] was the ministry of death..to serve as a tutor to lead us to Christ...who leads us
to the knowledge of the goodness and mercy and grace and LOVE of the Father...which is to KNOW
THE FATHER IS LIFE ETERNAL
a very hard lesson indeed......if the rightous should strike me..it would even be a blessing...
the 'curse' that came through disobediance,otherwise know as 'evil' was an adversarial spirit that
raised up and overcome us[sin is crouching at the door..it desires to have you, but you must Master it]
Isaaih 54;7 For a brief moment I abandoned you,but with deep compassion I will bring you back
In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment,but with everlasting kindness I will have
compassion on you,says the Lord your redeemer. To me, this is like the days of Noah, when I swore
that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth.So now I have sworn not to be angry
with you,never to rebuke you again. though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed
yet,my unfailing love for you will not be shaken,nor my covenant of peace be removed...O'afflicted city
I will build you with stones of turquoise,your foundations with sapphires,your gates of sparkling jewels
and all your walls of precious stones.ALL YOUR SONS WILL BE TAUGHT BY THE LORD....AND GREAT
WILL BE YOUR CHILDREN'S PEACE......if anyone does attack you,it will not be my doing..whoever
attacks you will surrender to you.
SEE..IT IS I WHO CREATED THE BLACKSMITH WHO FANS THE COALS INTO FLAME AND FORGES
A WEAPON FIT FOR IT'S WORK AND IT IS I WHO CREATED THE DESTROYER TO WORK HAVOC
NO WEAPON FORGED AGAINST YOU WILL PREVAIL, AND YOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TONGUE THAT
ACCUSES YOU. THIS IS THE HERITAGE OF THE SERVANTS OF THE LORD AND THIS IS THEIR VINDICATION
FROM ME.
QuoteYOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TONGUE THAT ACCUSES YOU.
Needed that. The accuser seems to be working overtime lately around here.
Nice article: https://bible.org/article/lucifer-devil-isaiah-1412-kjv-argument-against-modern-translations
Just as 'satan' is not a proper name, it is the word used for adversary/enemy. "...lucifer. It is not a proper name but the Latin word for 'morning star.' "
It is amazing to me how those 2 words, satan and lucifer have evolved into so many of man's stories. Saying that, I find that the enemy/adversary is a sly seeker and very awesome and dangerous in our spiritual combat. :Peace2:
Quote from: lomarah on October 22, 2012, 05:09:26 PM
QuoteYOU WILL REFUTE EVERY TONGUE THAT ACCUSES YOU.
Needed that. The accuser seems to be working overtime lately around here.
The refutation will be, I am reconciled by the blood of His cross :o)
:dsunny: