Tentmaker Forum

I have not been around the boards for a while, so pardon me for not knowing what has been going on. And if I am going over really old ground, I hope you will excuse me and point me to the study on the subject of which I am about to bring up. :thumbsup:


I have been doing some word studies on my own and have found a bit of an enigma.
I understand that the "Chosen" will inherit eternal (Aionios) Life and the Non-Chosen will inherit eternal Punishment. This has been my understanding up until now. It is NOT a bad thing, it is just that God, in his infinite and Devine mercy has made it so that the NON-Chosen will have their part in the Lake of Fire and will be made RIGHT after going through it. This has been my understanding.

But after coming across John 17:2 it kind of threw me off balance.
It seems to point out that since the Son (Jesus) has been given ALL THINGS and as John 17:2 states The ALL FLESH will be given Eternal (Aionios) life and NOT Eternal (Aionos or Age abiding) Punishment (Correction).

Please read the below passages and let me know if you have any insight as to what John 17:2 is speaking of. Am I somehow “Off base” as to what it is saying??

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If would seem to me that God is telling us that ALL flesh that has been given to Christ is going to have eternal (Age abiding) Life).


Now comes the REAL SHOCKER,….at least to me!!! It states in John 17:3 this little bit of information:

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

It would seem that God is defining EXACTLY what age abiding or Aionios life is!!!
God is saying that age abiding life IS KNOWING the only true God and his Son Jesus Christ whom he has sent! This is what Age abiding life IS!!!!

With this information in mind, it COULD BE that THIS LIFE IS the Lake of Fire and that some are having Age abiding life NOW (The Chosen)  and some will have age abiding life Later (The Non-Chosen).
Since the ONLY way I can see that God would be able to say that some will have age abiding life and some age abiding punishment, ….YET say that ALL have age abiding life is if the Lake of Fire is in the HERE AND NOW!!!!

Please give me your insight on what I have purposed.
Thank you! :cloud9:

Dante

Two questions. Two answers. No. No.
IMO "Aionios life" is for 'the elect'

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 18, 2009, 08:57:59 PM
Two questions. Two answers. No. No.
IMO "Aionios life" is for 'the elect'

Thank you for you answer, but I was hoping for a little more meat as to why you say no.
I understand the status quo says: Aionios life is for the elect, but if God's Word ALSO says: .....,that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM (And of course we know that all is given to Christ) and ...., life eternal that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, Then I think we have something truly and seriously worth looking into.

If you are a UC or UR then you should KNOW, of ALL people that you NEVER take ANYTHING for granted.

We have been lied to for years about people going to a pagan hell that does NOT exist. With this in mind, we should be extremely diligent to make sure everything we believe lines up with the Word of God %100!!
Don't you agree??

In that spirit, I think that if God is saying that all that is given to him will have Aionios life,.....then I think we have A LOT to think about.
And one of those things that should be thought about, is that we MAY be in the very Lake of Fire right NOW!

This is just a theory for the time being, but if logic dictates that this idea has a good possibility of being true, then we would all regret the years of ignoring it!
Personally, I think there is a good likelihood of  it being true. I am not sure, but I am not willing to let go of this idea until I hear some strong evidence of it being false.

Peace

I just answered "no no" because in your poll I couldn't select 2 answers.

QuoteI understand the status quo says: Aionios life is for the elect, but if God's Word ALSO says: .....,that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM (And of course we know that all is given to Christ) and ...., life eternal that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, Then I think we have something truly and seriously worth looking into.

Good point. I have no answer (right now).
Remark:
The aionios doesn't seem to fit. (but being the Bible it somehow does fit)
No matter how big 'the elect' is it would greatly lessen the accomplishment from Jesus because He doesn't offer eternal life but 'just' extented life.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2009, 12:08:09 AM
I just answered "no no" because in your poll I couldn't select 2 answers.

QuoteI understand the status quo says: Aionios life is for the elect, but if God's Word ALSO says: .....,that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM (And of course we know that all is given to Christ) and ...., life eternal that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent, Then I think we have something truly and seriously worth looking into.

Good point. I have no answer (right now).
Remark:
The aionios doesn't seem to fit. (but being the Bible it somehow does fit)
No matter how big 'the elect' is it would greatly lessen the accomplishment from Jesus because He doesn't offer eternal life but 'just' extented life.

Thanks for the clarification.

This is the way I see it (Or saw it): God gives Aionios life to the Chosen and Aionios change (Correction) to the Non-Chosen.

Now that is JUST for an AGE (Aionios). But for the rest of “Eternity” there is NO real word on that, because instead of THAT being spoken of, God tells us that we will ALL (The whole human race) Will put on IMMORTALITY. At SOME point in time anyway.

We will stand outside of time, just as God does now! In other words, time will not touch us, just as it does not touch God. So there was no reason for God to even mention eternity.

BUT,…now that this passage in John 17:2,3 has come to my attention, I am starting to think that we are NOW in the Lake of Fire, because to the Non-Chosen, this is punishment or Correction. To the Chosen this LIFE IS,….The very life of CHRIST!
I am thinking that this life and the Lake of Fire are not two different things, but the same.
It kind of makes sense if you think on it for a while. Jesus said: “It is finished”, meaning that everything that had to be done is already done. And this life is just a correction until “ONE” Turns to Christ.
I am not sure how everything else fits,…..or in fact IF everything else fits, but it is an interesting subject. That is for sure!
Think about the Tree of Life and why God had to put a fiery sword/angel around it. To get to the Tree of Life are we to go through the fire of life? And isn’t that only a representation of Christ, since all LIFE comes from Christ anyway?
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil,…who or what could it have been. Mustn’t it have been Christ himself? Since all knowledge comes from God?
These are some deep and cool questions that I am asking myself and others.
Thanks for your input!!!

Peace

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 12:43:56 AM
BUT,...now that this passage in John 17:2,3 has come to my attention, I am starting to think that we are NOW in the Lake of Fire, 

I think you soon will get a smiling reply of someone who strongly believes that.

Quotebecause to the Non-Chosen, this is punishment or Correction. To the Chosen this LIFE IS,....The very life of CHRIST!
I am thinking that this life and the Lake of Fire are not two different things, but the same.
It kind of makes sense if you think on it for a while. Jesus said: "It is finished", meaning that everything that had to be done is already done. And this life is just a correction until "ONE" Turns to Christ.

Let's just say that all options are open for me on this one.
One of the main problems for me is that the timing of the Bible seems wrong.
For example. The big aim of LoF is to learn about God. But the words of God where only know to a very small group of people before Jesus. And even now many don't know it.
Is the Bible not about this life? Actually afterlife if this is LoF.
It would for example mean God created again in LoF. There was Eden in LoF.
I know some verses seem to point to LoF=now but I can't just accept that until the above and other problems are cleared up.

Quote
The big aim of LoF is to learn about God. But the words of God where only know to a very small group of people before Jesus. And even now many don't know it.
Is the Bible not about this life? Actually afterlife if this is LoF.
It would for example mean God created again in LoF. There was Eden in LoF.
I know some verses seem to point to LoF=now but I can't just accept that until the above and other problems are cleared up.

I am NOT saying that in the time of Adam and Eve were in the LOF, I am saying that SHORTLY after Christ' death on the Cross began the LOF. Probably around 70 AD.

But I disagree with you as to the purpose of THIS LIFE. I believe the purpose of this life is to learn the difference between GOOD AND EVIL,…Hence the TREE! And aren’t the Non-Chosen getting the chance to LEARN the difference between Good and Evil? Since it seems that the true reason for the LOF IS LEARNING Good and Evil (A Corrective measure).

Fire is on the House of God NOW!!
We are ALL salted with fire!
We know that the LOF is symbolic. It is NOT a literal fire, since that would serve NO purpose. But a spiritual fire serves a great purpose. And even the Non-Chosen are learning the difference between Good and Evil. And isn’t that the whole point of this life?? Otherwise WHY did God put the Tree in the MIDDLE of the Garden in the first place?

When the Word of God speaks of people wailing and gnashing their teeth, this is a picture of the Hebrew Children who then knew that they could have been part of the kingdom of God. Yet they ignored the teachings of Christ and choose NOT to believe them. So they will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, which was AT HAND back when Jesus Christ was alive!!!!
The Kingdom of God is upon us right now! And MOST of Israel is NOT part of it.
So because of these facts is the reason why I question if THIS LIFE is the LOF or not.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."

Do not Christians DIE to sin and become alive to Christ IN THIS LIFE???
The LOF would only have existed either after Jesus uttered the Words “It is finished” or shortly there after. Since the Kingdom of heaven is in each and every believer.
I am not making a concrete statement as to this life being the LOF, but only asserting that it COULD BE THE LAKE OF FIRE.

I think we really need to look into it further and that is why I would like your and others opinions and input on it!
This,…TO ME,..is especially important since John says this:

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

Aren’t we all learning about Good and Evil and God and Jesus Christ, IN THIS LIFE!!??

So if ANYONE has ANY opinion on this subject I would LOVE to hear it. Whether you agree or disagree with it!
Please remember that it is just a theory of mine and I am NOT saying it is for sure.
My original question had to do with John 17: 2 and 3 and how could this be being said in light of many other scriptures.

Thank you.
And Peace.

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 04:53:41 PM

Quote
The big aim of LoF is to learn about God. But the words of God where only know to a very small group of people before Jesus. And even now many don't know it.
Is the Bible not about this life? Actually afterlife if this is LoF.
It would for example mean God created again in LoF. There was Eden in LoF.
I know some verses seem to point to LoF=now but I can't just accept that until the above and other problems are cleared up.

I am NOT saying that in the time of Adam and Eve were in the LOF,

Neither do I. I'm just trying to explain the LoF is now view causes problems/conflicts for me.

QuoteI am saying that SHORTLY after Christ' death on the Cross began the LOF. Probably around 70 AD.

But I disagree with you as to the purpose of THIS LIFE. I believe the purpose of this life is to learn the difference between GOOD AND EVIL,...Hence the TREE! And aren't the Non-Chosen getting the chance to LEARN the difference between Good and Evil? Since it seems that the true reason for the LOF IS LEARNING Good and Evil (A Corrective measure).

If I look at revelation I see lets call it the end-times. Many things happen. One of those things is that the sinners are resurected and kicked into LoF. I agree the reason of LoF is learning.
The problem is this. If we are in LoF right now it means we are already resurrected and judged.
I won't deny that all people truely learned about good and evil and even apply it in daily life. So far so good. But do people apply that knowledge of good and evil in the correct way?
As far back as history goes there has been war. Take the classic Hitler example. He died so his LoF lesson is over.
I'm not God but I have the impression Hitler didn't fully grasp the 'love your Jewish neighbor' concept. 1 billion people call themself Christians (but many arent't I think). The remaining 5 billion have another or no religion. Not a good score on knowing God. To me the whole LoF is a complete failure. That would mean Gods plan is a complete failure. And for that simple reason I do not believe we live in LoF.

QuoteFire is on the House of God NOW!!

Ok. But 95% of humantity isn't part of Gods house right now.

QuoteWe are ALL salted with fire!

Are or will be...?

QuoteWe know that the LOF is symbolic. It is NOT a literal fire, since that would serve NO purpose. But a spiritual fire serves a great purpose.

Fully agreed.

QuoteAnd even the Non-Chosen are learning the difference between Good and Evil. And isn't that the whole point of this life?? Otherwise WHY did God put the Tree in the MIDDLE of the Garden in the first place?

To learn. But IMO that doesn't mean this is LoF. Another senario is that the tree is  a gentle way to learn about good and evil. Many don't attend to class. In LoF there is much less freedom to attend to class. So no; for me the tree doesn't mean we live in LoF right now.

QuoteWhen the Word of God speaks of people wailing and gnashing their teeth, this is a picture of the Hebrew Children who then knew that they could have been part of the kingdom of God. Yet they ignored the teachings of Christ and choose NOT to believe them. So they will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God, which was AT HAND back when Jesus Christ was alive!!!!
The Kingdom of God is upon us right now! And MOST of Israel is NOT part of it.
So because of these facts is the reason why I question if THIS LIFE is the LOF or not.

Ha! So you also question LoF is right now. I'm not sure either. But as I wrote right now I (strongly) edge toward "Not LoF right now"
The Hitler/war example is a huge stumbling block for me. I've read the rest of your post but didn't reply to it because I simply can't begin to accept it until the Hitler problem is gone. There are long threads on this subject. One things I did learn from those threads is that understanding "LoF=now" is totally beyond my level.
I'm better of playing with flowers than with trees :icon_flower:

everyone  is salted with fire, some now some later, those who have eionian life will not expereice the second death because they already have.

adam= first death
Christ=second death.


remember even if i am wrong if one can figure out what exactly the ""second death"" is, then they know what the LOF is.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. 
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 


great topic......


peace
chuckt

willieH: Hi Dante... :hithere:

:bigGrin: 

I think that ..."I"... am (probably) the  -- :bigGrin: -- that brother WhiteWings referred to...

At any rate, here I am!  :cloud9:  (btw my sister Cardinal, asked me to jump in here, that's how I found out!)

This will be a little long, for that I apologize, but the details must be addressed...  :blush:

Quote from: Dante on August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PM
I have been doing some word studies on my own and have found a bit of an enigma.
I understand that the "Chosen" will inherit eternal (Aionios) Life and the Non-Chosen will inherit eternal Punishment.

FIRST -- ANY TERM in ANY LANGUAGE which denotes ETERNAL, FOREVER, or EVERLASTING, and applies it to other than GOD (IMO) is a misapplication,  ...because we know that GOD is a being (that if you believe in Him), that you KNOW within your BELIEF, that He preceeded TIME and subsequently the Creation (and whatever, by definition, THAT realm actually IS).

In other words, we cannot "legally" utilize the terminology "EVERLASTING or ETERNAL", because we do not have the capability to grasp or comprehend such a REALM, being FINITE and bound by the limits of TIME, as well as the observations of BEGINNINGS and ENDINGS IN IT, ...which do NOT ...LIMIT Him...  :dontknow:

If we suppose to determine a FINITE being or thing to having an ETERNAL "position", then we are speaking or applying a WORD which we do not COMPREHEND, and therefore that usage is INAPPLICABLE, and INVALID.

The words AIONIOS, and its parent word AION are translated INVALIDLY as I see it, for they are used in contexts and applied to scenarios which HAD both a BEGINNING and END... Therefore, they are invalid when applied to any entity which has these two characteristics...

SECOND -- the qualifications and determinations for traversing the LOF are listed in -- Rev 21:8   -- which EASILY encompass ALL humanity.  There is no verse in Revelation that notes the "elect" will NOT have their part in the LOF, just that they will not be HURT of it  -- Rev 2:11 -- (2nd death occurs in all for ALL have their part in it, but the "ELECT" will "buy" of CHRIST, and be CLOTHED of Him -- Rev 3:18 -- the rest will not and suffer SHAME accordingly -- this is NOT a bad thing, rather a part of the ORDAINED process of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST)

Quote from: Dante on August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PMThis has been my understanding up until now. It is NOT a bad thing, it is just that God, in his infinite and Devine mercy has made it so that the NON-Chosen will have their part in the Lake of Fire and will be made RIGHT after going through it. This has been my understanding.

I agree in part with this perception Dante... However as I just noted, NO man shall sidestep involvement in the LOF... for it is the FIRE of GOD which consumes iniquity [sin]... which has accompanied (by HIS ORDAINATION -- Rom 11:32  ) His Children, in their experiential involvement with the single KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

I once heard these words:  "TIME is the FIRE in which we burn"... (a lot of truth in those words)

Quote from: Dante on August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PMBut after coming across John 17:2 it kind of threw me off balance.
It seems to point out that since the Son (Jesus) has been given ALL THINGS and as John 17:2 states The ALL FLESH will be given Eternal (Aionios) life and NOT Eternal (Aionos or Age abiding) Punishment (Correction).

Please read the below passages and let me know if you have any insight as to what John 17:2 is speaking of. Am I somehow "Off base" as to what it is saying??

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If would seem to me that God is telling us that ALL flesh that has been given to Christ is going to have eternal (Age abiding) Life).

I believe simply, that "revelation" is taking place in you Dante...  :happyclap:

Quote from: Dante on August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PMNow comes the REAL SHOCKER,....at least to me!!! It states in John 17:3 this little bit of information:

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

It would seem that God is defining EXACTLY what age abiding or Aionios life is!!!
God is saying that age abiding life IS KNOWING the only true God and his Son Jesus Christ whom he has sent! This is what Age abiding life IS!!!!

Yep!  :high5: :happyclap:

Quote from: Dante on August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PMWith this information in mind, it COULD BE that THIS LIFE IS the Lake of Fire and that some are having Age abiding life NOW (The Chosen)  and some will have age abiding life Later (The Non-Chosen).

As I see it, the "age abiding" thing has to do with this realm... and an "age" can be "limitless" TIME.. or it can be a MOMENT.  The ANGER [wrath] of GOD is said to be a "moment" in duration -- Psalm 30:5 --  A moment can be short or long depending upon ones perspective... for instance ONE SECOND is quite a SHORT period of TIME when amidst a 100 meter race, however... Let us say that ones HAND is set upon a stove burner on HIGH, ...THAT perspective of the "length" of ONE SECOND is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT perception - eh?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Dante on August 18, 2009, 08:28:45 PMSince the ONLY way I can see that God would be able to say that some will have age abiding life and some age abiding punishment, ....YET say that ALL have age abiding life is if the Lake of Fire is in the HERE AND NOW!!!!

Please give me your insight on what I have purposed.
Thank you! :cloud9:

Dante

IMO, ...It could be considered a type of "punishment" -- to NOT ...KNOW God! 

He witholds Himself (according to His PURPOSE) from many (most), ...yet here we are, ...YOU and I have NOT had that "withholding",  ...rather have come to experience the WONDER of Him NOW,  ...not to mention UNTOLD WONDER of Him to come?  :bgdance:  And You and I can NOW REJOICE for those who yet are VEILED of Him, and which shall one day, come to KNOW the JOY of "knowing" Him!!  :egyptdance: :boogie: :myahoo:

To KNOW Him is JOY, is it not?  So to NOT KNOW Him, ...is therefore, NOT JOY - eh?  :dontknow:

To have Him (and His Holiness revealed to one while yet in SIN) is an extreme blessing as I see it... I have pity for those who are Athiest, or that do not (yet) see their Savior, and consider it a HIGH JOY that I have been allowed, as a SINNER to KNOW Him, and the WONDER of His presence!  And to partake NOW of the JOY which IS, and IS to COME for ALL!

:Peace: ...Dante!

willieH, chuckt and WhiteWings, I want to thank you all for your great thought out answers to the question that has puzzled me. And if you have any more insight to this question I would LOVE :HeartThrob: to hear it!!!

But I have to point this question and statement towards willieH, since he has brought up some seriously in depth and unorthodox ways of thinking that may in fact be totally correct,…..IMHO!

First off willieH, I have to say that you knocked my socks off!!!
In what you first pointed out about Aion and Aionios, I already knew. Aion really means an age or a period of time that is undisclosed. I only wrote “eternal” because that is what the MIS-Translators wrote. But I know that it is NOT eternal. But I thank you for pointing it out to me anyway, just in case I did not know it.

I have ONE issue that I disagree with you on and that is when you state: “As I see it, the "age abiding" thing has to do with this realm... and an "age" can be "limitless" TIME.. or it can be a MOMENT.”

The reason being is because I believe the Word of God PROVES that an Aion cannot be timeless or limitless. Here are some examples from L. Ray Smith:

BEFORE the aions:
I Cor. 2:7--
... before the eons ...
... before the ages...
God MAKES the aions
Heb. 1:2--
... makes the eons.
... made the ages.
PAST aions:
Col. 1:26--
... hid from eons...
... from the ages ...
PRESENT aion:
Gal. 1:4---
... the present wicked eon ...
... present age ... an evil one
END of present aion:
Mat. 24:3--
... conclusion of the eon ...
... conclusion of the age...
The NEXT aion:
Lk. 18;30--
... the eon to come ...
... age that is coming ...
FUTURE aions:
Eph. 2:7--
... the oncoming eons ...
... ages that should come ...
CONTRASTING aions:
Eph. 3:21--
... the eon of the eons...
... age of the ages ...
ENDS of the aions:
I Cor.10:11-
... the consummations of the eons ...
... the ends of the ages ...

So to me, this proves that an Aion cannot be limitless. It always has an end and always has a beginning. It was a little puzzling since you SEEMED to make it clear that you thought that an Aion had a beginning and an end at another point of you writing. Maybe I just misunderstood some of what you said.  :mblush:
Anyway, on to what you said that I think is VERY, VERY thought provoking!
First off I have Got to say that "TIME is the FIRE in which we burn" is one of the most Brilliant group of words that I have ever heard!!!!! :thumbsup:
IT makes SO much sense!!!!

You make a reference to time being long for one person and short for another. And I understand what you say. As the man with his hand on a stove and a man hugging his child, TIME is a totally different experience for each.

The next interesting thing you bring up is that Punishment is: NOT KNOWING GOD!
That would make sense if we are saying that THIS is the lake of fire, since GOD’S definition of Aionios life is Knowing God :gangel:, it SHOULD be logical that  NOT KNOWING GOD is Aionios punishment. :sigh:

OK,…..so I am with you up until this point. But WHY does God state that he gives Aionios life to Chosen and Aionios correction to Non-Chosen and THEN mentions that he gives Aionios life to ALL that have been given to him?? Which is THE ALL anyway.
It seems kind of a messy way to explain things don’t you think?

Ok, so IF I am understanding you correctly, and if this life is the LOF. We are either chosen to believe or not to believe. Once this is done, we die.
Now what happens??
Is it just our FLESH that is keeping us back from being perfect? When will the “ALL” have their Aionios life?? Will it be after they die? I thought we are to put on immortality after death, which would SEEM to rule out any Aionios life. Because why would the NON believer need an Aionios life if once they died they had put on immortality?


********OH!!!! But that is right,….Aionios life is Believing in God and Jesus Christ, so even if it were AFTER death it COULD be considered Aionios life!!! :bgdance:**********


So that once we die, even the NON Chosen will fall right in line with God because their FLESH is gone?
Everyone’s sins are paid for through Jesus Christ. There is NO NEED for any more of that.
So is that IT!!??

IF SO,….I SAY COOL BEANS!!! :bigGrin:

I would be amazed if that were the way it was. I could never figure out why God would punish anyone for NOT believing when he is the one who made someone believe or NOT believe in the first place.
Man may devise but God directs his steps,…and I have chosen you and NOT you have chosen me. No man seeks after God,…NO NOT ONE!!
But being on this planet and having to play the part of the “GOOD GUY” or the “BAD GUY” is just a role given to us by God. And once all is said and done, we will ALL be with God and he will be ALL IN ALL!!
I think I have my loose strings almost all tied up!!
LOL!
If you, or anyone else, thinks I am “Off Base” on what I have said, please let me in on it!!
Thank you all.
And thank you willeH!

Dante


Please keep more information coming if you wish!

Just one more note.
I understand that if this IS the LOF (Even if it isn't), that NO MAN can side step the LOF. We ALL will be salted. Or have SOME part in it.
And this life benefits ALL! For the fire of God burns off iniquity. In fact the Word of God says that a man is saved AS BY FIRE!!!!!
And since there is NO other way of salvation,.......the fire in the Lake IS JESUS CHRIST and is a nessesary part of Salvation for ALL!

I just didn't want there to be any misunderstanding.

Peace to all.
God love you!

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 12:13:37 AM
Just one more note.
I understand that if this IS the LOF (Even if it isn't), that NO MAN can side step the LOF. We ALL will be salted. Or have SOME part in it.

Yep. And "salt is good"
Mark 9:49-50  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

QuoteAnd since there is NO other way of salvation,.......

the fire in the Lake IS JESUS CHRIST and is a nessesary part of Salvation for ALL![/quote]
I don't agree with that. I think Father is LoF.
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
And many other verses say so.

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver  by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

:2c:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 12:34:16 AM

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 12:13:37 AM
Just one more note.
I understand that if this IS the LOF (Even if it isn't), that NO MAN can side step the LOF. We ALL will be salted. Or have SOME part in it.

Yep. And "salt is good"
Mark 9:49-50  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

QuoteAnd since there is NO other way of salvation,.......

the fire in the Lake IS JESUS CHRIST and is a nessesary part of Salvation for ALL!

I don't agree with that. I think Father is LoF.
Hebrews 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire
And many other verses say so.

Revelation 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver  by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Malachi 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

:2c:
[/quote]


So what have we learned from all this??
Salt and Fire are GOOD!!
Correct!??

WhiteWings,...You say that the Lake of Fire is the Father, but I say it is Jesus Christ.
The reason why I say it is Jesus Christ is that there is NO NAME under which a person can be saved other than Jesus Christ.
This SEEMS to point out the fact that you MUST go through the SON to get to the Father.
What do you say? Correct or do you have scripture to say that it is otherwise?

I know the Word of God states that our God is a consuming Fire, and I TOTALLY AGREE with that. That is why I say that Jesus Christ is the LOF.
But I think what we are talking now is semantics don't you?
Whether it is the Father or the Son, it is a GOOD thing and will make the unbeliever become “OF GOD”, in the end.

But what I really want to know, is when Is the LOF???
Is it in the here and now, or later on.
I AM TENDING to lean toward the here and now, since it would seem that the “Christian” or “Chosen” are living in the spirit now and knowing God the Father and God the Son NOW! And the UNBELIEVER is being punished, corrected or tormented in the here and now for NOT knowing God.

I don’t know, I have YET to find definitive proof in the Word of God to point out that this life is the LOF beyond a reasonable doubt.

If it is there I will try to find it.

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 09:42:36 PM
everyone  is salted with fire, some now some later, those who have eionian life will not expereice the second death because they already have.

As was said: Everyone will be salted with fire, but that does not mean that we will not have part of the second death, it just means that the second death will not hurt us.

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 09:42:36 PM
adam= first death
Christ=second death.


remember even if i am wrong if one can figure out what exactly the ""second death"" is, then they know what the LOF is.

Right, but if the second death and the LOF are the same thing, As you have implied, then the LOF has got to be Jesus Christ, since he is the only one handing out Salvation!!!

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 09:42:36 PM
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. 
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 

Right so the Chosen have already DIED TO SIN, and become alive to Christ!
This means that the second death will have no power over him because he has already died to sin. The NON-Chosen will be hurt by the second death because the pain and stinging of the second death will come from fighting God's TRUTH!

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 09:42:36 PM
great topic......


peace
chuckt

Thank you Chuckt,...God Bless!!
PS. GREAT BABY PICTURE!!!!!

 :cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 04:44:11 PM
So what have we learned from all this??
Salt and Fire are GOOD!!
Correct!??

100%

QuoteWhiteWings,...You say that the Lake of Fire is the Father, but I say it is Jesus Christ.
The reason why I say it is Jesus Christ is that there is NO NAME under which a person can be saved other than Jesus Christ.
This SEEMS to point out the fact that you MUST go through the SON to get to the Father.
What do you say? Correct or do you have scripture to say that it is otherwise?

I know the Word of God states that our God is a consuming Fire, and I TOTALLY AGREE with that. That is why I say that Jesus Christ is the LOF.
But I think what we are talking now is semantics don't you?
Whether it is the Father or the Son, it is a GOOD thing and will make the unbeliever become "OF GOD", in the end.

So far we agree on: God is a consuming fire + All come trough the Son + Salt/fire is good + it's semantics
The reason I (still) believe God is the fire because the verses always link Father to fire.
Plus Jesus and the angels are watching the sinners being purified in LoF. So for me that means they (Son + angels) are watching. Testing to be more precise. Father does the laundry and Son checks if it's clean.
Now about the way to Father is though Jesus. Let me start with saying I'm in no way trying to lessen the importance of Jesus. Just assume we have stains on our eyes that blind us. We don't seen Jesus. So we don't find Him. So we don't come to Him. But God starts washing teh dirt out of your eyes. Then we see Jesus. And by that enter heaven through Jesus. Not the most poetic discripion but I hope/think you understand my reasoning.

QuoteBut what I really want to know, is when Is the LOF???
Is it in the here and now, or later on.

I only can say I think it's later on; for the reasons I stated earlier.
But I'm not ruling out your view yet. I can only add that if this is my hell it is a really tiny light-weight cross I have to carry.

Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 04:56:19 PM
:cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Rose! Cardinal stole your example  :laughing7:

QuoteInteresting that the word lake is translated HAVEN

In Dutch we still use that word. (haven=harbor/port)
The weird thing about that conclusion is that the harbor is safe part of the sea.
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???

Quote from: wwThat would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???

haha Do you think he would send a boy to do a man's job?

I do think I don't understand your answer. :happy3:

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 05:33:54 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 04:56:19 PM
:cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Rose! Cardinal stole your example  :laughing7:

QuoteInteresting that the word lake is translated HAVEN

In Dutch we still use that word. (haven=harbor/port)
The weird thing about that conclusion is that the harbor is safe part of the sea.
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???

:cloud9: That's what I get for only reading the last 3 or 4 posts. But rose and I have the same teacher, so it's bound to happen anyway.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 05:47:45 PM
I do think I don't understand your answer. :happy3:

You have to stay in the port until you are able to sail the open sea...



22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

--Ga 3


"kept" [under the law]

G5432
φρουρέω
phroureō
froo-reh'-o
From a compound of G4253 and G3708; to be a watcher in advance, that is, to mount guard as a sentinel (post spies at gates); figuratively to hem in, protect: - keep (with a garrison). Compare G5083.


"shut up"

G4788
συγκλείω
sugkleiō
soong-kli'-o
From G4862 and G2808; to shut together, that is, include or (figuratively) embrace in a common subjection to: - conclude, inclose, shut up.

The one stumbling block I think everyone has and I kind of have is that we kind of think of the LOF as a purifying entity (Which it is) that will strip us of our ungodliness.
In other words,..it makes us perfect,...BUT God says that he looks at us as if we are Christ.
So we Chosen are looked at by the Father as Christ anyway, and the ONLY thing making us NOT act as Christ is our FLESH!! :msealed:
Any objections to this!????

But the question remains: "What about the Non-Chosen?
Does THIS LIFE give enough to the Non-Chosen to make them clean from their sins?
Does this life Strip the sin from within their hearts??
The answer to me is: "I don't think it does!"  :thumbdown: BUT,..I also don't think it matters,..because that is NOT the purpose of THIS LIFE. :thumbsup: The purpose of this life is to learn Good from Evil.
And I think this life does a GREAT JOB of that!!
Don't you agree!???

But now we still have a problem of this life being the LOF. If this life does NOT strip the sin from the hearts of the Non-Chosen,.....what does????

I think I have the answer: Jesus does!!!!
It took Jesus about Three seconds to CHANGE Paul (Formerly Saul) the self proclaimed "Chief of all Sinners"!!!! So it would not seem a needful thing to have some LONG drawn out procedure to make a sinner into a saint!!

Ok,…so here we have my conclusion (But with not much hard evidence YET!).
After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.
The Chosen are going through the LOF learning and teaching and helping, but no harm is coming to us.
The Non-Chosen are going through the LOF (This life) and are being hurt by it. Some turn to God and some do NOT.
{But the important part is that we are ALL learning Good from Evil}
Now all die and God STRIPS THE SIN from the Non-Chosen and we all bow and kneel before God.
End of story,….Kind of.
What we do from there is anyone’s guess.  :dontknow:
But does anyone see ANY scripture that would conflict with this kind of idea!??

And if so, I would LOVE it if they would point it out.

Thank you all.

Peace
Dante

Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 05:50:30 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 05:33:54 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 04:56:19 PM
:cloud9: My take on that is that if He makes His ministers to be a flame of fire (we are all His ministers of righteousness), then if you get a whole bunch of flames together, just like if you get a whole bunch of rain drops together.........you have a 'lake' of fire. Interesting that the word lake is translated HAVEN, also. So I think that Christ is the lake of fire. Blessings.....

Rose! Cardinal stole your example  :laughing7:

QuoteInteresting that the word lake is translated HAVEN

In Dutch we still use that word. (haven=harbor/port)
The weird thing about that conclusion is that the harbor is safe part of the sea.
That would imply the saints are on the dangerous ocean/sea and teh sinners in the security of the port...???

:thumbsup:    true sis! :cloud9:

  Dante you are very clear I am hearin ya and all on this very intersting thread

  ps ,WW and I have talked about this LOF before in pvt..  hee hee  :icon_flower:

:cloud9: That's what I get for only reading the last 3 or 4 posts. But rose and I have the same teacher, so it's bound to happen anyway.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 06:21:04 PM
After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.

In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died. Assuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PM

In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died. Assuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....

I see what it is that you are saying, BUT KNOWING now that Aionios life is Believing in God and Jesus Christ, we are assuming that Aionios punishment is life NOT knowing God and Jesus Christ.
With this in mind, think about what purpose would it serve for a Non-Chosen person to walk through YET another experience of life NOT KNOWING GOD (Your real lake of fire)???
If this is NOT the LOF, then the person who is NOT Chosen will once again go through another experience "Not knowing God or Jesus Christ!"
What purpose would that serve?? It would seem that more stinging and pain would not do any good. Especially when you take into consideration how FAST Jesus can turn a sinner into a Saint, just like he did with Paul (Formerly Saul).

Do you see what I am getting at?

So to recap:

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If we see from John 3:35, ALL things were given to the Son and those SAME ALL THINGS WILL BE GIVEN LIFE)

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

The above John 17:2,3 are stating that ALL will be given Aionios life and that Aionios life is actually BELIEVING IN GOD AND HIS SON!!!!!
That is IT’S DEFINITION!!!


We KNOW that ALL will put on Immortality.

We know that there is FIRE on the house of God NOW and that ALL will be salted with FIRE and that men are SAVED AS BY FIRE!!!!


As I have stated,....I am not SURE about this life being the Lake of Fire, but it sure seems to be pointing towards that direction.

As WhiteWings stated: "In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died." YET!!,.....as we ALL know the Word of God is full of words like die and death and they don't ALWAYS mean death, as in dying physically!!
Nor does the Word of God always make everything so clear as to understand it at first glance.
So all I am saying is that it would be a good idea to take a look at this subject and beat it to death with a stick until we are SURE BEYOND a doubt that this life is NOT the Lake of FIRE!
I am sure when the first Universalists happened upon passages that seemed to prove that everyone would be saved, there were people who were telling them that they were crazy! But there is NEVER anything wrong in chasing an idea and seeing if it holds water.


Peace out. :thumbsup:
If anyone comes up with stuff like "WW" did that shows that what I say is wrong or something that gives more support to it, I would love to hear it. Either way, it is ALL good!  :Sparkletooth:

 :cloud9: You have a great attitude about seeking after revelation, Dante.  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 07:58:25 PM
So to recap:

John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL things into his hand."  (ALL THINGS are given to the Son!)

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (ALL the things given to the Son will come to him)

John 17:2 "Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as MANY as thou HAST GIVEN HIM." (If we see from John 3:35, ALL things were given to the Son and those SAME ALL THINGS WILL BE GIVEN LIFE)

John 17:3  And this is life eternal (Age abiding/Aionos) that they might know thee the only true. God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent

The above John 17:2,3 are stating that ALL will be given Aionios life and that Aionios life is actually BELIEVING IN GOD AND HIS SON!!!!!
That is IT'S DEFINITION!!!


We KNOW that ALL will put on Immortality.

We know that there is FIRE on the house of God NOW and that ALL will be salted with FIRE and that men are SAVED AS BY FIRE!!!!


As I have stated,....I am not SURE about this life being the Lake of Fire, but it sure seems to be pointing towards that direction.

As WhiteWings stated: "In Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.
That would mean we already died." YET!!,.....as we ALL know the Word of God is full of words like die and death and they don't ALWAYS mean death, as in dying physically!!
Nor does the Word of God always make everything so clear as to understand it at first glance.
So all I am saying is that it would be a good idea to take a look at this subject and beat it to death with a stick until we are SURE BEYOND a doubt that this life is NOT the Lake of FIRE!
I am sure when the first Universalists happened upon passages that seemed to prove that everyone would be saved, there were people who were telling them that they were crazy! But there is NEVER anything wrong in chasing an idea and seeing if it holds water.


Peace out. :thumbsup:
If anyone comes up with stuff like "WW" did that shows that what I say is wrong or something that gives more support to it, I would love to hear it. Either way, it is ALL good!  :Sparkletooth:

If Jesus IS WAS and WILL BE, and Jesus is the lake of fire, then the LOF  WAS and IS and WILL BE.

The ones whom go thru the lake NOW have eionian life while the others dont.

just saying....

peace
chuckt

I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 08:13:31 PM
:cloud9: You have a great attitude after seeking after revelation, Dante.  :thumbsup: Blessings.....

Thank you, but I don't think it is always something good, because sometimes if feels like if I don't know something it is going to drive me MAD!!
LOL!!!
But thank you very much for your kind words!

Peace to your heart always!
God Bless.

Dante

Quote from: Doc on August 20, 2009, 11:08:30 PM
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.

Quote from: chuckt on August 20, 2009, 09:00:42 PM
If Jesus IS WAS and WILL BE, and Jesus is the lake of fire, then the LOF  WAS and IS and WILL BE.

The ones whom go thru the lake NOW have eionian life while the others dont.

just saying....

peace
chuckt

Ok,......I see what you are saying. But I believe that Jesus Christ was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life ALSO!
Let me explain a little.
The ONLY way we get TRUE KNOWLEDGE is through God,…Correct??
The ONLY way we get LIFE is through GOD,….Correct???
But we humans cannot face God in his pure form at this time, so God needed to make a way to give us interaction without killing us. And that is where Jesus Christ came in.
Notice the Tree of Life has a “Messenger with a flaming sword” around it so that no one could partake of the tree. (Ah even there is the Lake of Fire,….our God is a consuming Fire!!)
Jesus is the exact representation of God. He is NOT fully God in the respect that he is ALL that God IS! (And in fact NONE of us can comprehend the fullness of God. To try to do so would be putting God in a BOX!) BUT,….he is the representation of what God is, since he is the WORD of God.

It is like if someone calls you,…say a friend of yours named Bill. When your mom calls you to the phone and says: “Hey Chuck!!!” “It is Bill!!”, they do NOT mean that Bill is physically present, but the WORDS of Bill will be heard on the phone,… by YOU.
So to me, ONE ASPECT of Jesus’ coming was: God making a Phone Call to the human race.
He was MUCH, MUCH more than a phone call, but I take Jesus’ presence as AT LEAST THAT.

Now we know that Aionios life is Knowing God and Jesus Christ. And we surmise that Aionios punishment is NOT knowing God and Jesus Christ, YET, even though the Non-Chosen of this time,….in this life are NOT knowing God, they still COULD be in the Lake of Fire since they are experiencing Aionios punishment (Age long correction/Age long punishment, age long purifying).
To a Chosen one, this life is Age abiding life,…Through Christ. To a Non-Chosen one, it is ONLY punishment or correction.
YET,…ALL of us feel the STING and PAIN of the Flames, do we not???
That is why Fire is on the House of God NOW!
And IF the Non-Chosen will have Aionios life anyway. Which we KNOW to be TRUE from John 17:3, then why could this NOT be the Lake of Fire??

Jesus paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. This we all accept, so what is keeping a Non-Chosen from becoming like us. It MUST be just the Flesh.
Paul (Formerly Saul) was converted in about three seconds, so I don’t see any reason for any more fire in the life of a Non-Chosen member of the human race once he is dead.
Do YOU??

I think the human race has already been judged. I think that Jesus paid for the penalty of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
We on this earth and in this life have ALL learned Good from Evil. And wasn’t that the whole point of things in the first place???
It wasn’t to find God! Since God says: NO MAN seeks after God,…NO NOT ONE!
AND,…I Choose you, you do NOT choose me!
The purpose of this life is to learn the difference between Good and Evil.
And don’t the Hitlers, Mansons Stalins and Pauls (The Chief of all sinners) learn about EVIL??? Didn’t Judas Iscariot learn of EVIL??
I don’t see any more need for more of a lesson plan than THIS LIFE.

Sorry to blather, but I want to fortify one other thing I said. I do not want to lesson the difference between God and Jesus, nor do I want to make it out to be too different either.
The way I think of it is this: God the Father is the Brain. The Son of God is the Hand, tongue and other parts of the body (And in fact we are also part of that body). That is why Jesus was able to say that HE didn’t even know certain things, but that the Father did.
This whole trinity thing and who is who and what is what, is just so much NUTS!
God is one God. Jesus is the Son of God, because he is the off spring of God because God needed a way to interact with us humans. He is the Mouthpiece of God.
And that is ONE REASON why God needs to be ALL IN ALL in the end.
He will MERGE (If you will) with himself and become ONE once again. There will be NO MORE distinction between Jesus and the Father.
We worship ONE GOD,… that does certain things to handle his plans for the human race.

Another important fact about God being ALL IN ALL is that WE ARE ALL PART OF GOD TOO! (Please don’t flame me to hard for that one.)
So when it comes down to brass tacks, we need to MERGE with God in the end and COME BACK to the family or WHOLENESS of God that we USED TO BE!!
I believe we are ALL part of God. It is even mentioned that we are called gods.
So I don’t see this as being a HUGE jump of faith.

That is my take on things.
I am sorry I took up so much space. But once I get going,…well I tend to blather. :dontknow:
I hope you will pardon me.
Peace be with all of you. :gangel:

Dante

If anyone has any objections or interjections, I would be more than happy to hear your wisdom on the subjects that I have written on. I am sure that I am not right about EVERYTHING, but I get the feeling that I may not be wrong about some of it.
LOL! :grin:
I would especially like to hear any passages of scripture that would disprove or prove what I say is right or wrong.
Thanks!

Quote from: Dante on August 21, 2009, 04:47:06 AM

Quote from: Doc on August 20, 2009, 11:08:30 PM
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.

So first fruits actually is first flames?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2009, 09:04:35 AM

Quote from: Dante on August 21, 2009, 04:47:06 AM

Quote from: Doc on August 20, 2009, 11:08:30 PM
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.

So first fruits actually is first flames?

L. Ray Smith puts it this way and I find it VERY interesting the way he puts it. I am not sure if EVERYTHING he says is correct, but MUCH of what he says makes a heck of a lot of sense. I have not figured everything out,.....it is just that I wonder how much of prophecy as we know it has ALREADY been fulfilled. Ray has a lot more knowledge than I and I am not God, of COURSE, I am just trying to figure things out as you are.
And by the way, we should all pray for this GREAT man of God. He has cancer and is fighting hard and doing his best. I hope all who read this would say a small prayer for him. So, in the spirit of Agape, lets listen to the way Ray puts it:

THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).

COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.

THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).

COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.

In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.

Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.

THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).

"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that’s just about EVERYONE, wouldn’t you say?]. Seven days [here’s that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God’s grand plan of salvation?

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God’s salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God’s Word will show us.

 :cloud9: Amen........but it's not that they're hiding it; they can't see the last feast. Jesus went in unto this feast IN SECRET after the disciples tried to get Him to go.

Christ IS the firstfruits offering, the remnant WITHIN the remnant that we are.

Wanted to share this experience I had while in OK in a Native American church; they had a conference and a man who was a pastor in Arizona came as guest speaker on the one of the days. The second he opened his mouth, an anointing of the authority of God hit myself and my friend and sorta knocked us back in our seats. That got our attention real quick, and I liked him already. :winkgrin:

Then he spoke about 3 sentences, pausing to stop between each to hear what the LORD wanted to say. At that point, I KNEW we were witnessing something special in the body. He finally said that the Lord told him to pray, lay hands on, and speak something specific into the body, and came down off the platform.

When we walked withing about 6 feet of me, we were all standing, and I was astonished to find that the "He makes His ministers flames of fire" was LITERAL. I could literally feel a wall of fire I couldn't see that didn't burn, around this man. With my mouth hanging open, I took my hand up and down it and could feel the flames going between my fingers, tickling. Lord help us to all become flames of Your fire. Blessings.....

PS to Beloved Servant........this man knew about Sonship.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2009, 09:04:35 AM

Quote from: Dante on August 21, 2009, 04:47:06 AM

Quote from: Doc on August 20, 2009, 11:08:30 PM
I think what he was surmising was that Christ is the fire in the "lake", not the lake of fire itself. A subtle but perhaps important distinction?

Correct, since we are ALL to be light to the World. We are also flames that help light the way for the unsaved.
Jesus is the FIRST of many.

So first fruits actually is first flames?

Also WW,.....we read that we are to be lights to the World.
Churches are portrayed as lamps.
The Burning Bush is God.
God is a pillar of fire to protect his children.
Tongues of flame on the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Angel (Messenger) with a flaming sword to protect the tree of life.
A flaming sword.
Fire came out of the mouths of the Two witnesses and devoured,...
Our God is a consuming fire.
Angels (Messengers) of light
The TRUTH is always light and fire.

The same fire that saves a man is the same blood of Christ that saves a man.
We are saved as by fire.
We are saved by the Blood of Christ.

Different ways of saying the same things. But there is ONLY ONE WAY of salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ. It is all the same.
That is why the lake of fire being portrayed, by some, as being a bad thing is just plain wrong!

QuoteThat is why the lake of fire being portrayed, by some, as being a bad thing is just plain wrong!

yup..

and its because the words are seen from carnal glasses. ooooooo fire bad.

well in a way it is bad, but everthing we think and what seems bad God always uses for the GOOD.

im not calling good evil and evil good here, but the delusion is to say God is a righteous judge applying unrighteous judgmenst to God.

with the lips they say ""God is Just"" but the heart reveals the truth.

not all fire is good.

Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell


peace
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on August 21, 2009, 07:07:23 PM
Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell
peace
chuckt

:cloud9: Amen, yes it is.......and that fire of "hell" (just means separation from God) that sets the tongue on fire, is that which is IN OUR HEARTS that separates us from the love of God, which is Spirit. Out the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on August 21, 2009, 07:12:28 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 21, 2009, 07:07:23 PM
Jam 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell
peace
chuckt

:cloud9: Amen, yes it is.......and that fire of "hell" (just means separation from God) that sets the tongue on fire, is that which is IN OUR HEARTS that separates us from the love of God, which is Spirit. Out the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks. Blessings....

ever known someone who could qoute the bible front to back but were meaner than sack full of rattlesnakes

 :cloud9:  :msealed:  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

willieH: Hi Dante... :hithere:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PM
I have ONE issue that I disagree with you on and that is when you state: "As I see it, the "age abiding" thing has to do with this realm... and an "age" can be "limitless" TIME.. or it can be a MOMENT."

Sorry Dante, poor wording on my part.  :blush:  I meant that an age can be quite long or quite short that's all...  Thus my examples of the "duration" of a second... :nod:

"Limitless" was NOT what I meant to say, ... my apologies. (and I am going to correct it in my post!)  :mblush:

And btw... I agree on many levels with the Biblical conclusions of L. Ray Smith, and have had many email discussions with him.

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMAnyway, on to what you said that I think is VERY, VERY thought provoking!
First off I have Got to say that "TIME is the FIRE in which we burn" is one of the most Brilliant group of words that I have ever heard!!!!! :thumbsup:
IT makes SO much sense!!!!

Me too!  Not sure where I heard it, some quote in a movie... It was AFTER I had heard this, that I began to research the idea of THIS LIFE, as the LOF... it was indeed a poetic and inspiring phrase... Maybe the writer had insight that he was revealing by saying this (i.e., he was "on to" this very idea of the LOF - who knows?  :dontknow:)

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMYou make a reference to time being long for one person and short for another. And I understand what you say. As the man with his hand on a stove and a man hugging his child, TIME is a totally different experience for each.

:winkgrin:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMThe next interesting thing you bring up is that Punishment is: NOT KNOWING GOD!
That would make sense if we are saying that THIS is the lake of fire, since GOD'S definition of Aionios life is Knowing God :gangel:, it SHOULD be logical that  NOT KNOWING GOD is Aionios punishment. :sigh:

Again, I agree... Your discovery of the words in John 17, I have already USED! :boogie:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMOK,.....so I am with you up until this point. But WHY does God state that he gives Aionios life to Chosen and Aionios correction to Non-Chosen and THEN mentions that he gives Aionios life to ALL that have been given to him?? Which is THE ALL anyway.
It seems kind of a messy way to explain things don't you think?

In His ETERNAL or completed, PURPOSE... ALL have been "given"... for CHRIST was sent (1) To seek and save the LOST -- Luke 19:10 -- (2) NOT to condemn -- John 3:17 -- (3) to reconcile ALL THINGS unto YHVH -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

In seeking, not condemning and thus, reconciling ALL THINGS, some are chosen to KNOW Him, and others are NOT... such as the JEWS [God's NATURAL and chosen people] -- Rom 11:25

Many skip right by the STATEMENT that the JEWS are the "NATURAL" branches, and because they are the "NATURAL", they must WAIT upon the SPIRITUAL which follows.  This is the ORDER of GOD... and IS done continually.  To include ...the SCRIPTURES!   

The OT which came FIRST... is the display and foundation of GOD dealing with MAN in the NATURAL (eye for eye/Law)...  and WHY it is superceded by the NT which came SECOND... AND which is GOD dealing with MAN in the SPIRIT (forgiveness/Grace) -- 1 Cor 15:46

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMOk, so IF I am understanding you correctly, and if this life is the LOF. We are either chosen to believe or not to believe. Once this is done, we die.
Now what happens??

EVERY Knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that JESUS is LORD -- Phil 2:10-11 and ALL ISRAEL shall be SAVED -- Rom 11:26 -- these things shall take place BEFORE the CONCLUSION of TIME on the LAST DAY (for the LAST DAY means no other "days" shall follow it)

As the Apostle Paul noted:  1 Tim 2:3-6 -- that the TESTIMONY of ALL shall occur along the lines of TIME (in due time)... Those "chosen" to KNOW CHRIST... are "chosen" according to the ELECTION of YHVH -- Rom 9:11 -- and that "election" is not due to any acts or non-acts of Good OR Evil, but according to the DECISION of God who is WORKING ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- according to HIS WILL -- which also means that He IS ASSOCIATED with ALL that takes place (which is a whole other discussion)...

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMIs it just our FLESH that is keeping us back from being perfect?

SUFFERING is necessary for COMPLETION and PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10 -- we are ALL following in the footsteps of CHRIST in the end, for HE is the IMAGE -- Heb 1:3 -- and WE are being made in that IMAGE.  So in that following of Him, do we each, suffer.  The only difference is that HE SUFFERED for us (sinLESS), to remove us FROM SUFFERING (sinFULL)...

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMWhen will the "ALL" have their Aionios life??

NO!  You are living "aionios life" because you are chosen to KNOW CHRIST ...while... in the SINFUL state.  MOST will not KNOW Him in this state. 

Btw... there is another "PART" to this... it is CHRIST "knowing" US...  We are not COMPLETE in "knowing" unless we are "known", as well!

MANY "chosen" to KNOW CHRIST, are NOT KNOWN of HIM! -- Matt 7:22-23 -- These mentioned in this passage ARE BELIEVERS, for they have SAID that CHRIST is Lord, and this cannot be DONE except by GOD -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- However... the 2nd Part of the equation which is CHRIST "KNOWING" them, is not present in them...

The Scripture which identifies the ones CHRIST "knows" is -- John 10:27 -- when one is preaching the TRUTH and pointing to CHRIST at ALL TIMES (saying as HE SAID -- "of myself, I can DO NOTHING"), ...one is thereby "HEARING His VOICE" -- these in Matt 7:22-23 -- were DOING "their" works... not HIS -- "have not ...WE..."  :blahgreen:

Those who are entered into His REST, ...have CEASED from their own "works" --  Heb 4:10

And have thereby followed Him, in "doing NOTHING ...OF... themselves" as did CHRIST --  John 5:19 & 30

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMWill it be after they die?

The "aionios" life is KNOWING Him, and vice-versa... And for most it shall be MOMENTARY within the LAST DAY, as they fall to KNEE and Call Him LORD, by HEARING His Voice... and laying ALL that they are, and ...DO...before Him... NOT as the [Matt 7:22-23] ---> PHARISEE (natural) "did and said" -- Luke 18:10-14 --  but AS the ---> PUBLICAN (spiritual) "did and said"! (you do NOTHING of yourself)

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMI thought we are to put on immortality after death, which would SEEM to rule out any Aionios life.

As I pointed out earlier bro... the terms "aion & aionios" deal with TIME... and TIME is but a tool, which once the job it has been created for has been accomplished, is no longer necessary.  A "MOMENT" can be considered a vast amount of TIME, depending upon the scenario (hand on a burner).

"IMMORTALITY" is found as LIFE in a COMPLETE state, ...when ALL THINGS have been JUDGED, and become KNOWN... and THEN, it is "put on"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMSo that once we die, even the NON Chosen will fall right in line with God because their FLESH is gone?

GOD is NO RESPECTER of persons (completely and perfectly IMPARTIAL)... the PARTS we "play" in KNOWING and NOT KNOWING CHRIST, have to do with completing the SINGLE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL for ALL... and are ACCORDING to the WILL of GOD who is WORKING ALL THINGS which includes IMPARTIAL "election" to COMPLETE that agenda...

It is NOT (at all) about US, brother D... it is COMPLETELY about HIM!  The "reward" we are to obtain, is the JOY of YHVH... which is to KNOW Him completely -- 1 Cor 15:28

WE are the Joy of YHVH, given by HIM, to one another FOREVER...  :grouppray:  ALL returning to where we "began"...

Remember... the "LOST SON" was WITH the Father, ...then left ...then returned... Luke 15:11-32   :nod:  :boogie:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMEveryone's sins are paid for through Jesus Christ. There is NO NEED for any more of that.
So is that IT!!??

Yep! :boogie:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMIF SO,....I SAY COOL BEANS!!! :bigGrin:

Metooo!  :friendstu:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMI would be amazed if that were the way it was. I could never figure out why God would punish anyone for NOT believing when he is the one who made someone believe or NOT believe in the first place.

Right on bro!  :thumbsup:

QuoteMan may devise but God directs his steps,...and I have chosen you and NOT you have chosen me. No man seeks after God,...NO NOT ONE!!

But being on this planet and having to play the part of the "GOOD GUY" or the "BAD GUY" is just a role given to us by God. And once all is said and done, we will ALL be with God and he will be ALL IN ALL!!

I think I have my loose strings almost all tied up!!
LOL!

Again, ...right on bro!   :2thumbs:

Quote from: Dante on August 19, 2009, 11:59:27 PMIf you, or anyone else, thinks I am "Off Base" on what I have said, please let me in on it!!
Thank you all.
And thank you willeH!

Dante

Not ME!  I think you are right ON POINT!

Thank you as well, brother D!  :gthumbsup: :friendstu:

this all sounds heretical  :happy3:


everyone have a safe weekend.

chuckt

Quote from: Dante on August 21, 2009, 05:37:57 AM

Quote from: chuckt on August 20, 2009, 09:00:42 PM
If Jesus IS WAS and WILL BE, and Jesus is the lake of fire, then the LOF  WAS and IS and WILL BE.

The ones whom go thru the lake NOW have eionian life while the others dont.

just saying....

peace
chuckt

Ok,......I see what you are saying. But I believe that Jesus Christ was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life ALSO!
Let me explain a little.
The ONLY way we get TRUE KNOWLEDGE is through God,...Correct??
The ONLY way we get LIFE is through GOD,....Correct???
But we humans cannot face God in his pure form at this time, so God needed to make a way to give us interaction without killing us. And that is where Jesus Christ came in.
Notice the Tree of Life has a "Messenger with a flaming sword" around it so that no one could partake of the tree. (Ah even there is the Lake of Fire,....our God is a consuming Fire!!)
Jesus is the exact representation of God. He is NOT fully God in the respect that he is ALL that God IS! (And in fact NONE of us can comprehend the fullness of God. To try to do so would be putting God in a BOX!) BUT,....he is the representation of what God is, since he is the WORD of God.

It is like if someone calls you,...say a friend of yours named Bill. When your mom calls you to the phone and says: "Hey Chuck!!!" "It is Bill!!", they do NOT mean that Bill is physically present, but the WORDS of Bill will be heard on the phone,... by YOU.
So to me, ONE ASPECT of Jesus' coming was: God making a Phone Call to the human race.
He was MUCH, MUCH more than a phone call, but I take Jesus' presence as AT LEAST THAT.

Now we know that Aionios life is Knowing God and Jesus Christ. And we surmise that Aionios punishment is NOT knowing God and Jesus Christ, YET, even though the Non-Chosen of this time,....in this life are NOT knowing God, they still COULD be in the Lake of Fire since they are experiencing Aionios punishment (Age long correction/Age long punishment, age long purifying).
To a Chosen one, this life is Age abiding life,...Through Christ. To a Non-Chosen one, it is ONLY punishment or correction.
YET,...ALL of us feel the STING and PAIN of the Flames, do we not???
That is why Fire is on the House of God NOW!
And IF the Non-Chosen will have Aionios life anyway. Which we KNOW to be TRUE from John 17:3, then why could this NOT be the Lake of Fire??

Jesus paid for the sins of the WHOLE world. This we all accept, so what is keeping a Non-Chosen from becoming like us. It MUST be just the Flesh.
Paul (Formerly Saul) was converted in about three seconds, so I don't see any reason for any more fire in the life of a Non-Chosen member of the human race once he is dead.
Do YOU??

I think the human race has already been judged. I think that Jesus paid for the penalty of our sins and the sins of the whole world.
We on this earth and in this life have ALL learned Good from Evil. And wasn't that the whole point of things in the first place???
It wasn't to find God! Since God says: NO MAN seeks after God,...NO NOT ONE!
AND,...I Choose you, you do NOT choose me!
The purpose of this life is to learn the difference between Good and Evil.
And don't the Hitlers, Mansons Stalins and Pauls (The Chief of all sinners) learn about EVIL??? Didn't Judas Iscariot learn of EVIL??
I don't see any more need for more of a lesson plan than THIS LIFE.

Sorry to blather, but I want to fortify one other thing I said. I do not want to lesson the difference between God and Jesus, nor do I want to make it out to be too different either.
The way I think of it is this: God the Father is the Brain. The Son of God is the Hand, tongue and other parts of the body (And in fact we are also part of that body). That is why Jesus was able to say that HE didn't even know certain things, but that the Father did.
This whole trinity thing and who is who and what is what, is just so much NUTS!
God is one God. Jesus is the Son of God, because he is the off spring of God because God needed a way to interact with us humans. He is the Mouthpiece of God.
And that is ONE REASON why God needs to be ALL IN ALL in the end.
He will MERGE (If you will) with himself and become ONE once again. There will be NO MORE distinction between Jesus and the Father.
We worship ONE GOD,... that does certain things to handle his plans for the human race.

Another important fact about God being ALL IN ALL is that WE ARE ALL PART OF GOD TOO! (Please don't flame me to hard for that one.)
So when it comes down to brass tacks, we need to MERGE with God in the end and COME BACK to the family or WHOLENESS of God that we USED TO BE!!
I believe we are ALL part of God. It is even mentioned that we are called gods.
So I don't see this as being a HUGE jump of faith.

That is my take on things.
I am sorry I took up so much space. But once I get going,...well I tend to blather. :dontknow:
I hope you will pardon me.
Peace be with all of you. :gangel:

Dante

If anyone has any objections or interjections, I would be more than happy to hear your wisdom on the subjects that I have written on. I am sure that I am not right about EVERYTHING, but I get the feeling that I may not be wrong about some of it.
LOL! :grin:
I would especially like to hear any passages of scripture that would disprove or prove what I say is right or wrong.
Thanks!

Dante... this is just plain old, ...GOOD STUFF!   :happygrin:

willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 06:21:04 PM
After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PMIn Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.

"AFTER" is a CHRONOLOGICAL term...  There is NO CHRONOLOGY to the BEING REVEALED as He is SIMULTANEOUSLY the ALPHA ...AND... OMEGA -- BOTH the BEGINNING - AND - the END, Forever!  Never changing!

The "Revelation" is the "REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST"... You presently appear to have a view which is CHRONOLOGICAL of a being [JESUS CHRIST] which IS REVEALED which HAS NO CHRONOLOGY... being BOTH the BEGINNING ...AND... the END...

The WORKS of GOD were FINISHED from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Gen 2:1-2 -- Heb 4:3 -- TIME did not have to OCCUR, in order for those "WORKS" to be COMPLETE. (one of which is JUDGMENT)  GOD does not have to "wait" for TIME to elapse!  His WORK is ETERNAL... and stands ETERNAL!  That you and I are FINITE and unable to percieve the WORK as COMPLETE, does NOT preclude it's ETERNAL PERFECTION...

At the DECLARATION of the END from the BEGINNING, was ALL COMPLETE... that finite MEN, decide that the WORKS of GOD, are INCOMPLETE is a lack of vision (IMO) and (no offense) UNINSPIRED thinking which is CONTRARY to Scriptural TESTIMONY...

JESUS said:

John 12:31 -- "NOW is The JUDMGENT of THIS WORLD"...

That is pretty doggone, PLAIN and "To the POINT"...

Also, JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the same "yesterday, today and for ever"... So the entities which are PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST:  The "Lake of FIRE" and "the JUDGMENT", are the same yesterday, today and for ever... NOT necessitating this or that amount of "TIME" to occur in order for HIM to "be REVEALED"...  The WORD is already REVEALED in ALL in the ETERNAL... but for FINITES, we must step through the moments of TIME to GET BACK to where we began.

He is "REVEALED" within the DAYS of your LIFE... which are NOW, and IN THIS MOMENT, is "your" (and my) "BOOK" OPEN (and JUDGED) -- Rev 20:12 -- Yet ALL "BOOKS" were already COMPLETE at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, having been DECLARED and foretold... as witnessed by the WORD...  :dontknow:

If you wish to know the END, then go to the BEGINNING which are ONE and the SAME:

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the Heavens and the Earth were --  FINISHED -- and ALL the host OF THEM

Heb 4:3 -- for we which have believed do enter into rest as He has said, As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into my rest, ...although THE WORKS WERE FINISHED from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PMThat would mean we already died.

We already DID!   ...IN ADAM!   :dontknow:

When HE died (in spirit) ALL MEN died with him...  :dontknow: -- 1 Cor 15:22

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PMAssuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....

NOT "almost NONE" -- Only ONE "died purified" bro...  JESUS CHRIST  :first:

:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?

As far as the "severity" of the LOF... You don't see "severity" in THIS LIFE, ...WW?  All one has to do to SEE "severity" is wake up and observe this world, and the direction in which it is headed -- (more "severity")  :dontknow:

I am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING... :nod:

That "severity" has taken My parents, uncles, aunts, friends, etc... into varying DEATHS which were VERY SEVERE in many cases... not to mention the heartache, disease, varying sorrows, economy... the "severity" list of THIS LIFE, is literally -- ENDLESS!

Believe what you will... it is your right.   But the on-going sufferings of THIS LIFE of sorrows, pain, and death is only countered by KNOWING the JOY of the GOSPEL...

My Lord told me to bring GOOD NEWS... and my testimony for others IS THIS:

JESUS CHRIST -- TOOK AWAY -- the sin of the WORLD... and THAT is what we have to "look forward" to...  :egyptdance: :boogie: :Egyptdance2:

 :cloud9: Amen Willie........and we are all walking in various levels of PERSONAL understanding revelation of that central truth given us by the Father, ie. different degrees of 'sleepwalking', waking up to (and in) Christ. Blessings...

Quote from: willieH on August 22, 2009, 12:42:36 AM
:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?

That's just my point.
I do NOT believe the average child in Africa is worse that the average child in the USA.
And that IS the main stumbling block for me.
My reasoning is that person with a nearly white heart has a milder LoF than a person with a pitch black heart.
And using that reasoning roughly seen Africa has the most pitch black hearts.
But once again that are my thoughts/considerations. Not my conclusion!
My conclusion is more or less because what I wrote above LoF is not now.

QuoteI am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING...

I'm 44. Not quite as old as you are but still enough experience to have an opinion.
I can state as a fact I reached this age without illness/hunger/poverty/....
Many others don't even live that long. They die after 20 years of misery.
And yes I'm happy with my life as it is and was. No severity at all.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 22, 2009, 01:00:19 AM

Quote from: willieH on August 22, 2009, 12:42:36 AM
:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?

That's just my point.
I do NOT believe the average child in Africa is worse that the average child in the USA.
And that IS the main stumbling block for me.
My reasoning is that person with a nearly white heart has a milder LoF than a person with a pitch black heart.
And using that reasoning roughly seen Africa has the most pitch black hearts.
But once again that are my thoughts/considerations. Not my conclusion!
My conclusion is more or less because what I wrote above LoF is not now.

QuoteI am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING...

I'm 44. Not quite as old as you are but still enough experience to have an opinion.
I can state as a fact I reached this age without illness/hunger/poverty/....
Many others don't even live that long. They die after 20 years of misery.
And yes I'm happy with my life as it is and was. No severity at all.

I plan on writing MORE on this subject because EVERYONE is bringing up Excellent points, but I must just write a little, short comment on all of this.

NO MAN can measure pain!!

A woman who has Panic Disorder or Agoraphobia  and cannot leave her house to even walk down her walk to get the paper, never mind go to the market to get the MUCH NEEDED baby's formula is in NO WAY LESS PAINFUL than PERHAPS a man who is being tortured with battery cables!!!

I mean no disrespect to you WW, but I think God is the ONLY one who can measure suffering and torment. Granted being tortured with battery cables must be extremely painful and mind twisting!!! But WHO AMOUNG US can measure the anguish that that mother who needs to get the baby formula to her baby, BUT CANNOT, because of a hereditary illness. That Mother would probably RATHER have the battery cables “Put to Her” than watch her baby suffer from hunger!!!

So to even imply that one person suffers more than another is being BLIND to humanity. We have NO “Pain O Meter” to measure human suffering. In FACT, IMO Physical suffering is NOTHING compared to metal suffering!
I have gone hungry,….to the point of having Severe health problems. I could have easily died from it. It was self induced and done for experimental purposes (A very long story) and it was not pleasant, but I tell you, it was NOTHING compared to some of the mental anguish that I have had happen to me at times in my life.

I will leave it like that for now, but my simple point is this: “No human can TRULY understand or measure another’s pain.” 

Quote from: Dante on August 23, 2009, 11:27:59 AM
NO MAN can measure pain!!

But I think man can at least get a good impression of it. And just below you measured pain.

QuoteA woman who has Panic Disorder or Agoraphobia  and cannot leave her house to even walk down her walk to get the paper, never mind go to the market to get the MUCH NEEDED baby's formula is in NO WAY LESS PAINFUL than PERHAPS a man who is being tortured with battery cables!!!

My point is not that I claim to be able to measure the pain difference between the woman and the man you mentioned above. But I can compare with for example me. I never experienced anything of the above. Never knew illness, poverty etc.
My only problem in life is that I have so much useless junk and food in my house I have to find a place to keep it all.
Call me blinded but IMO I'm in less pain than the 4 year child on a garbage dump in India that hopes to find a rotten tomato so it can have his first meal in 3 days.

QuoteI mean no disrespect to you WW, but I think God is the ONLY one who can measure suffering and torment. Granted being tortured with battery cables must be extremely painful and mind twisting!!! But WHO AMOUNG US can measure the anguish that that mother who needs to get the baby formula to her baby, BUT CANNOT, because of a hereditary illness. That Mother would probably RATHER have the battery cables "Put to Her" than watch her baby suffer from hunger!!!

Both are horror. Both are bad. Lets say it's often very hard to compare shades of grey. But I'm not claiming that I'm able to do that. I'm just claiming, pure as an example, that I can distinguish between the 20% lightest shades of grey and the 20% darkest shades of grey. I'm comparing roughly. Not into the 20th decimal.

QuoteSo to even imply that one person suffers more than another is being BLIND to humanity. We have NO "Pain O Meter" to measure human suffering. In FACT, IMO Physical suffering is NOTHING compared to metal suffering!
I have gone hungry,....to the point of having Severe health problems. I could have easily died from it. It was self induced and done for experimental purposes (A very long story) and it was not pleasant, but I tell you, it was NOTHING compared to some of the mental anguish that I have had happen to me at times in my life.

And once again you claim the blinded me ever said mental problems are more or less bad than physical problems.
Please also note you just wrote you measured your physical and mental pains; otherwise you can't state your mental anguish was much greater....

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2009, 11:54:44 AM
Please also note you just wrote you measured your physical and mental pains; otherwise you can't state your mental anguish was much greater....

I will get back to you on more of this kind of subject, but I would just like to state that I feel that I can measure MY pain, but not in relation to ANOTHER'S pain.

You don't really know what is happening to a poor starving person in Africa. That is FOR SURE! I am for SURE NOT trying to lessen some poor kid starving, .....BUT every human has HIS OR HER burden. And THIS is God's WILL whether or NOT you believe this is the Lake of Fire!!!! That is a FACT!
It is God's WILL that a child die from starvation. It is God's WILL that my Dad died of Lung Cancer and suffered terribly for it!
So this being the Lake of Fire (Or Not) has NOTHING to do AT ALL with comparing suffering. God makes his children (The Whole Human Race) for HIS REASONS,....and NOT ours!
Jesus cured some people and left SOME with their problems for the Father's reasons.
He didn't cure everyone. God is Ultimitly in control of ALL THINGS!!!!!

If we are to take your phylosphy on the subject, we would have to question God as to why he does this and not that. Or why he doesn't do this and DOES that.

But God said to this question: I am the Potter and you are the clay,....does the clay say to the potter: "Why have you made me this way???"
NO!! We are just DUST. We do NOT have the infinite mind of God that knows why he does what he does. We just TRUST and have FAITH that he knows what he is doing.

So the argument of someone suffering more in this life than another is not a valid argument as to; if this world is the Lake of Fire or not. God does things for his reasons and NOT ours.
I am still writing just a little on the subject and would like to comment on WillieH, because he made a BOAT load of sense in what it was that he said. Unfortunatly I do not have the time at this moment to comment on it. But I will try to get to it in the near future.

But let me say this, God picks some to be THE CHOSEN and some to NOT be the Chosen.
Some men may say; "That is NOT fair", but I say: "God does things HIS WAY, for HIS purposes" and that is the bottom line.
If you or I were God, then we could run the Universe the way WE wanted it to be (And probably screw things up royally!! LOL!), but the fact remains that God is who he is and he will do all his wills, desires and wants, and nothing we can do or say can change that!!
THANK GOD FOR THAT!!!

One more quick thing. My friend visited China a couple of years ago and he wondered how these people could live in such poverty. YET,....they seemed happy and fulfilled. He asked why they were happy in such conditions. They told him that they were happy because they had their family and that was all they needed. I think that says a lot for life, and how we in the western world think of things.
We want running water and if we did not have it or had to share a well with the village people (Not the singing group,...LOL!) we would be appalled and be miserable,..>YET!!! These people loved their lives and would probably say that our society was "Sick" since we do NOT interface with OUR families in the same intimate way that they do!!!!
There is some real WISDOM on the part of people living in poverty!!! There is a lot to be said for being poor but happy. There is a lot to be said for having next to nothing but appreciating what little ONE has.
We all know that MANY RICH people are miserable. Because how much is enough!!!???
Richness comes from the heart and not the stomach or the pocket book or the accolades or anything else. We need God and we need our fellow human beings. That is what the movie: “It is a wonderful life” is all about!

Quote from: willieH on August 22, 2009, 12:42:36 AM
willieH: Hi WW... :hithere:

Quote from: Dante on August 20, 2009, 06:21:04 PM
After the generation of Christ (Around 70 AD) this world was the Lake of Fire. Since all prophecy had to happen in THAT generation just like Jesus said.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PMIn Revelation I read that people are cast into LoF after judgement. After being resurected.

"AFTER" is a CHRONOLOGICAL term...  There is NO CHRONOLOGY to the BEING REVEALED as He is SIMULTANEOUSLY the ALPHA ...AND... OMEGA -- BOTH the BEGINNING - AND - the END, Forever!  Never changing!

The "Revelation" is the "REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST"... You presently appear to have a view which is CHRONOLOGICAL of a being [JESUS CHRIST] which IS REVEALED which HAS NO CHRONOLOGY... being BOTH the BEGINNING ...AND... the END...

The WORKS of GOD were FINISHED from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD -- Gen 2:1-2 -- Heb 4:3 -- TIME did not have to OCCUR, in order for those "WORKS" to be COMPLETE. (one of which is JUDGMENT)  GOD does not have to "wait" for TIME to elapse!  His WORK is ETERNAL... and stands ETERNAL!  That you and I are FINITE and unable to percieve the WORK as COMPLETE, does NOT preclude it's ETERNAL PERFECTION...

At the DECLARATION of the END from the BEGINNING, was ALL COMPLETE... that finite MEN, decide that the WORKS of GOD, are INCOMPLETE is a lack of vision (IMO) and (no offense) UNINSPIRED thinking which is CONTRARY to Scriptural TESTIMONY...

JESUS said:

John 12:31 -- "NOW is The JUDMGENT of THIS WORLD"...

That is pretty doggone, PLAIN and "To the POINT"...

Also, JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the same "yesterday, today and for ever"... So the entities which are PART of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST:  The "Lake of FIRE" and "the JUDGMENT", are the same yesterday, today and for ever... NOT necessitating this or that amount of "TIME" to occur in order for HIM to "be REVEALED"...  The WORD is already REVEALED in ALL in the ETERNAL... but for FINITES, we must step through the moments of TIME to GET BACK to where we began.

He is "REVEALED" within the DAYS of your LIFE... which are NOW, and IN THIS MOMENT, is "your" (and my) "BOOK" OPEN (and JUDGED) -- Rev 20:12 -- Yet ALL "BOOKS" were already COMPLETE at the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, having been DECLARED and foretold... as witnessed by the WORD...  :dontknow:

If you wish to know the END, then go to the BEGINNING which are ONE and the SAME:

Gen 2:1 -- Thus the Heavens and the Earth were --  FINISHED -- and ALL the host OF THEM

Heb 4:3 -- for we which have believed do enter into rest as He has said, As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into my rest, ...although THE WORKS WERE FINISHED from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PMThat would mean we already died.

We already DID!   ...IN ADAM!   :dontknow:

When HE died (in spirit) ALL MEN died with him...  :dontknow: -- 1 Cor 15:22

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 20, 2009, 06:46:51 PMAssuming there is a relation between sins and the severity of LoF people that have  a bad life (hunger, poor, sick) where the greatest sinners.
But almost none die purified....

NOT "almost NONE" -- Only ONE "died purified" bro...  JESUS CHRIST  :first:

:omg:  Boy WW... :pitiful:  I was just wondering, ...How do YOU come to the conclusion that a "child born in Africa which is STARVING without HOPE, is due to his SINS"?  Or that a person "born in POVERTY to parents born in POVERTY is because of their SINS"?   Or that a "child with LEUKEMIA is dying because of  his SINS"?

As far as the "severity" of the LOF... You don't see "severity" in THIS LIFE, ...WW?  All one has to do to SEE "severity" is wake up and observe this world, and the direction in which it is headed -- (more "severity")  :dontknow:

I am 64, WW -- wait till YOU arrive at my age, and let's see what YOUR TESTIMONY of "this life" contains! ...I can witness for HOURS of the "SEVERITY" of THIS LIFE, which has been an ON-GOING part of life since I can remember ANYTHING... :nod:

That "severity" has taken My parents, uncles, aunts, friends, etc... into varying DEATHS which were VERY SEVERE in many cases... not to mention the heartache, disease, varying sorrows, economy... the "severity" list of THIS LIFE, is literally -- ENDLESS!

Believe what you will... it is your right.   But the on-going sufferings of THIS LIFE of sorrows, pain, and death is only countered by KNOWING the JOY of the GOSPEL...

My Lord told me to bring GOOD NEWS... and my testimony for others IS THIS:

JESUS CHRIST -- TOOK AWAY -- the sin of the WORLD... and THAT is what we have to "look forward" to...  :egyptdance: :boogie: :Egyptdance2:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

All I can say about what WillieH said is: Excellent Job of explaining things!!
Time to God is not as WE percieve it. All that has and is and will, take place has already taken place by God's eyes. He also sees it as the past and present. But in God's eyes (IMHO) Time is FOLDED, so as to FIT into whatever he is percieving at that time.

I believe God's Word is written with humans in mind,....don't get me wrong, but when it comes to how God percieves things, it is a totally different ball game!!!

I believe God STILL sees me in the first grade being beaten up by a bully and he sees me in a wheel chair years from now sipping my dinner through a straw.
So,.IN a CERTAIN WAY, time is irrelevent to God.

But I DO believe that when Jesus Christ uttered the Words: "It is finished", he meant JUST THAT! All things that must be done,.....ARE DONE!

And as WillieH pointed out, it was finished even before the Cross. It was all planned from BEFORE the foundation of the world.
TO ME,....this means that it is GOOD AS DONE, in God's eyes!
God knows that NOTHING,.....and I DO mean NOTHING can twart the PLANS of God.
The Alpha and Omega is exactly right. Jesus IS the first and the Last,,.....He IS the "I AM"!! He is everything to all things.
I am NOT trying to borrow money off of WillieH, but I CANNOT put it any better than the way HE did.

I have posted in many places about Chirstians DYING TO SIN and pointing that the Lake of Fire COULD be the Non-Chosen DYING TO SIN,....YET all I get is opposition!!
I think it make TOTAL SENSE to say that the second death is the beginiing for the unbeliever to start believing in God.

I have to Go an allow my wife on the computer now.
I had much more to say,....but HEY she is the boss!!! LOL!
But if I had to give advice to anyone, I would say: "Read what WillieH wrote,...THERE IS MUCH WISDOM in it!!!"
And like I said, I am NOT trying to borrow money off of him or become his best friend, it is JUST that he Makes a lot of sense!!!!


Peace to all.
:icon_flower:

 :cloud9: Amen Dante........that he does. And amen on time being 'folded', too. He has explained it that way to me too. Blessings.....

The way I have come to understand it is that the notorious words "those not believeing will go to the second death" are heard only after [1] all have experienced being resurrected, and [2] have also lived through and witnessed a very long day of the examination of all things (if the fall Holy Days prophecy the 2nd advent as the spring Holy days prophesied the 1st, then the day of examinatipn of all things and history will last 500 years.. Who, after all this, isn;t going to believe? The 1st resurrection is still the superior one, but in this drama (proving good from evil/life from death) some must play different roles (or there is no drama).. Since God confused the languages at Babel tower so mankind would not bring about collapse/apocalypse way too soon, before anything would be proven, it leads me to believe this is an important (unavoidable) drama, lesson and journey, this learning of good from evil/Life from death..
:bigGrin: