why is not it written "abolish" in this verse, in the young's literal translation ?
is not sin destroyed ? it is putting away
why ? thank you for your help
Hi Erwan,
"putting away" doesn't mean something like "store for later use".
It means
ἀθέτησις
athetēsis
Thayer Definition:
1) abolition, disannulling, put away, rejection
ἀθέτησις
athétēsis; gen. athetḗseōs, fem. noun from athetéō (G114), to abrogate. Cancellation, disannulling. In Heb 7:18, it refers to the natural abrogation or annulment of the commandment for the sacrifice of animals in that it was weak and unprofitable. Such sacrifice was set aside by the death of Christ which could not only justify the sinner before God, but also render the sinner just. Christ's death changed the character of the sinner (Rom 5:19). In Heb 9:26, it is used similarly, indicating the putting away or the abolition of the animal sacrifices since their benefit was not permanent. The death of Jesus Christ is presented as a once-and-for-all sacrifice with permanent effect and thus naturally to be preferred. One cannot accept the permanent sacrifice of Christ and keep the recurring sacrifices of animals. The one naturally replaced the other.
The following verses give extra information.
v20: Tells us there is a blood convenant.
v21-23: Tells us that the priest had to sprinkle blood in the Temple and on the things they used on daily basis. (even more than once a day)
v23: Jesus never entered into the most holy places of the Temple building made of stone. (He wasn't a Levite priest)
v24: This verse tell us the Temple made of stone is just a reprensatation/pattern of the real Temple. That Temple is in heaven.
v25: This verse states Jesus didn't offer His own blood often (just once). But the high priests did offer blood many times. The verse also mentions the priests didn't use thier own (human) blood. That's they used blood of animals.
v26: This verse explains if He had to sprinkle His blood more than once it woul mean He had to do so thousands of times. Foundation of the world is creation of the world.
v27: Jesus died once. Mankind dies once. God judges once.
v28: Jesus will return.
(Heb 9:20) saying, This is the blood of the covenant that God made for you.
(Heb 9:21) And likewise he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the service.
(Heb 9:22) And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood, and remission does not occur without bloodshed.
(Heb 9:23) Indeed therefore, a necessity was for the models of the things in the heavens themselves to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things with better sacrifices than these.
(Heb 9:24) For the Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, representative of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.
(Heb 9:25) And not so that he might offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the Holy things each year with blood by another,
(Heb 9:26) since it would be necessary for him to suffer often, from the foundation of the world. But now once, at the end of the ages, he was made known for an annulment of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(Heb 9:27) And inasmuch as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, judgment,
(Heb 9:28) so also the Christ, having been offered once in order to take up the sins of many, will appear a second time, independent of sin, to those waiting for him for salvation.
Summary:
The priests covered sin with blood. That was good but it good but it only worked for a short while.
Jesus did not cover sins; Jesus washed away all sins commited in the past, present and future. Permanently.
The Christian Bible uses 'rejection', as in, (my understanding) He's coming back to finally reject/completely do away with all evil. TCB says; 26) Otherwise, He would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; yet it is a fact that He is appearing once at the conclusion of the ages, for the rejection of wrongdoing by means of His sacrifice 27) Now as it is appointed unto humans once to die and then after that the judgment, 28) so too the Anointed One, who has been offered up once for all time to carry the wrongdoings of many, will be seen a second time, not to deal with wrong-doing again, but to give Salvation to those who are continually waiting for Him.
It seems to me to make a distinction between what He did at the cross and what His return as Lord and Conquereing King will do, although that was "set in motion" by His sacrifice on the cross. :2c:
The thing that confuses me is: conclusion of the ages
????
I know, I thought about that. That's part of why I think it's 2 separate events. But I think the "conclusion of the ages" thing is the TCB translator's view..that there's only one more age, and when that one starts, it's "the conclusion". I agree with them that Christ will return to do this, but I don't agree that there is necessarily only one more age and I think they could have worded it better. :2c:
So I see them (and the scripture saying) "He was our sacrifice on the cross" once, but He will return "once" again at the beginning of the next age, to "*finish what He started". 2 distinct but very much entwined events. One built on and vitally connected to the other.
*"It is finished" [said on the cross] to my understanding means "the debt is paid, and the way has been made unto salvation", not "everything's already done". Although, IMO, since God isn't limited by our understanding or by time, space, etc., it was all done in effect[good as done, it WILL happen] before the foundation of the world.
...but now that I read more closely the translation you posted, "since it would be necessary for him to suffer often, from the foundation of the world. But now once, at the end of the ages, he was made known for an annulment of sin by the sacrifice of himself", I'm not sure... :Chinscratch:
Exactly.
Jesus suffers once. Safe bet that was 2000 years ago.
That moment of suffering is linked to the end of the ages.
The question is: Which ages?
All ages? Nope; because that would mean we now live in a renewed world in the God all-in-all phase.
Maybe the ages of man? Like kings, judges, priests?
But the current church age is an age of man too....
:msealed:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 18, 2012, 07:18:27 AM
The thing that confuses me is: conclusion of the ages
????
It's the conclusion of the age--this age.
Jesus is returning at the end of this age.
Jesus suffered (on the cross) at the end of the ages.
He suffered ~2000 years ago. Not in a future time/age.
Even if you include 2000 years from His suffering as this age the problem is still there.
His 1000 year reign is an age too.
He suffered at the end of one age and will return at the end of the next age.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the age has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Translators don't agree on that one.
Nearly half translates "end of the world", nearly half as "end of the ages", two as end of the age.
Ok, yes, even many ages can be followed by even more ages.
There was a woman who was shown all the ages, it was posted on here a while back, I think her name was Dora Van Assen or something like that? I searched her name and got nothing though. Maybe I'll google her.
Here's the link to her stuff, don't have time to go through it right now but just posting it in case it interests anyone.
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA|&type=&show=titles&showitems=
Looks like momentous things happen at the ends of ages.
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 06:15:38 PM
Here's the link to her stuff, don't have time to go through it right now but just posting it in case it interests anyone.
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|VAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA|&type=&show=titles&showitems=
Dang it, not sure why the full link won't work but just search under "V" for Van Assen. And then read her stuff, it's REALLY good! :thumbsup:
Because the forum replaces space with %20.
Some sites can't handle that.
Use the URL tags
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=|VAN ASSEN, DORA|&type=&show=titles&showitems= (http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/searchdb.php?what=author&searchfor=%7CVAN%20ASSEN,%20DORA%7C&type=&show=titles&showitems=)
Prince WhiteWings to the rescue again! :icon_king:
(For about a year ('87-'88 ?) I lived in rooms that were part of Westgate Tabernacle's fellowship hall in West Palm Beach, Florida. Dora Van Assen lived a couple blocks away and she had an office in the same building where I was staying.)
Dora and her husband had been led to leave Holland, without any organization backing them and without any support, to live in Arizona with two American Indian tribes, spending about twenty years with each one. She had gone into some other state of consciousness for about twelve hours while outside lying under the full brightness of the sun in 130 degree heat without suffering any ill effects. She wasn't even sunburned. She said God showed her the eight ages in His plan. I have a chart she made up to illustrate what she was shown.
While the Concordant Literal people teach five ages, it is admittedly only the Scriptural minimum. There doesn't seem to be any direct statement in the Word specifying just how many eons there are. I find some discrepancy with Scripture saying Jesus appeared and was slain at the end of the eon(s) and Knoch's having this happen in the middle of all the ages.
Very cool reFORMer! Did you know her, or speak with her at all?
One of my favorite "UR witnesses"!
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/ [SEARCH VAN ASSEN under Authors Directory]
Excerpt - "In the beginning of this account we want to impress upon all the importance of worship – true praise and adoration. God had made it known to our assembly that he desired worship. He can make and send forth a missionary or preacher any time he desires - but he is searching for worshippers, "For He SEEKETH SUCH to worship Him" – John. 4:23
In obedience to this command, four of us were gathering daily under a juniper tree in the Mojave Desert near Lancaster, CA over twenty-five years ago, to SEEK GOD in the spirit of true worship. Though I had been a minister of the gospel for several years, I still had so many unanswered problems and questions concerning God's plan of salvation. Though my hands were lifted heavenward in praise and my lips were saying "hallelujah," my mind was filled with these many disturbing thoughts.
These questions in my mind had first begun to prick me when my husband, a confirmed atheist, was so marvelously converted while lying on his deathbed cursing God! Suddenly, he began to cry in agony of soul, tears gushing out of his eyes like a fountain, his body rolling from side to side in bed. When at last he could speak, he said, "God spoke to me." Then, he added, "I did not want to pray; God made me pray!" Sitting up, he placed his hand on his side saying, "God reached down His hand, touching my side. I'm healed! I'm going to get up."
While I stood in dumb-founded amazement, he dressed, went outside, and began hoeing weeds in the garden. Suddenly he again began to shout at the top of his voice, as he ran around the house, in an incoherent fashion. Then, rushing into me he threw his arms around me saying so sweetly, "Oh, Mama, I'm saved! Aren't you glad I'm saved?" Later that day as God led him to pray (exposed to the neighborhood right on our porch) he was filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues and prophesying to the neighbors who, out of curiosity, had gathered in our home to see what was taking place.
While hoeing in the garden he had such a tremendous experience of seeing Jesus standing before him in light form and then, entering into him, overwhelming him completely within and without. Later, after things quieted down, I saw him gazing in a mirror in order to see if he could see Jesus reflected in his own face – (2 Cor. 3:18).
In my own self-righteousness, I, whom had thought I was so far ahead of the unbelieving world (holding out very little hope for them), saw my own unbelieving husband saved, healed, filled with the Spirit, and receive the revelation of the indwelling Christ by the sovereign power of God. Within in a matter of minutes my suppositions that one must repent, believe, pray through, endure, and prove their self to be faithful before experiencing salvation had been disproved. My mind began to be filled with doubts and questions. Could I be mistaken? Had I falsely presented the gospel, basing salvation on works instead of the grace of God? In one day God had reached out to my husband, who I thought was so far behind spiritually, and placed him ahead of me in spiritual knowledge and experience of our Lord and Savior. Oh glory! I have had to move at a rapid, rapid pace since that time in order to keep abreast of the move of God.
A few days later I heard my husband praying for his deceased father. Surely he should not be praying for his father who also was an atheist. According to my teaching, his destiny was sealed. Therefore, I had supposed that there was no hope for his soul. However, I was afraid to stop him as he was under such an intense burden of prayer. I began praying that God would lift the burden by blotting out the memory of his father. Is this not what we are taught? That in heaven God will remove the memory of our unsaved loved ones from our minds? Otherwise, how would we ever be happy in heaven thinking of our father, mother, brother, sister or one of our dear children suffering in the torment of hell forever?
After a while my husband came in the house, his face shining with the radiance of God. He said, "I've been praying for my father." I interrupted, "Oh, honey, don't you know that you cannot pray for anyone after they are dead?" He replied, "I had to pray for my father; I could not bear to think that he was lost. I had to tell God how honest my father was, and how good he was to everyone, and oh, how much I loved him! And God answered me too!" In amazed unbelief I asked, "He did? What did He say?" And my husband, looking at me in calm assurance replied, "God said, 'MY LOVE IS GREATER THAN YOUR LOVE!' and if God's love is greater than my love, I know my father is in good hands!" From that hour he never worried about the welfare of his father anymore. How this shook me! Could there possibly be hope for the unsaved after death?" Dora Von Assen
Quote from: lomarah on July 18, 2012, 08:36:21 PM
Prince WhiteWings to the rescue again! :icon_king:
Retribution is at hand! :punish:
Quote from: lomarah on July 19, 2012, 01:43:39 AM
Very cool reFORMer! Did you know her, or speak with her at all?
Dora's friend Flo, at who's house she lived, kept us (me and Dora) eating together at her table. I had almost no money at all, just a little from odd jobs here and there. No car, few new books, I had only enough for food and laundry, taking into consideration the gifts the people of Westgate Tabernacle gave me. Dora's office was like our living room. We shared a lot of the things God had done In our lives over the years and how He'd taught us.
I really wanted tapes of her messages and copies of the books she wrote. It was in this circumstance I stumbled in pride. I'm sure she would have given them to me if I'd asked; but, I was too proud. She was so humble she may have thought I was far enough along I didn't need her teachings or I may have given the impression I looked down on her and didn't need what she had. Here was another of my many failures to enter on into relationships due to lack of love I'm trying not to remember so much. The truth was I only wanted them if I could pay for them. I only have a few things from her now as a result. I helped make several of her books. She did some VCR messages that were for a series of programs in African Television. I did some illustrations, some charts that were shown along with her teaching. These series were used there at Westgate too.
The whole ages thing can be interpretated in many ways.
Say, the age of Kings is one age. I the rule of King David an age inside that age?
I think we (all Tenties) should have a in depth discussion about the number of ages.
The end of this age:
But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
--Rev 10:7
What is the mystery of God?
Christ in you, the hope of glory
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
--Rev 11: 15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BWhvIlFVE
:thumbsup: molly
7 spirits, 7 days, 7 millenia, 7 trumpets, 7 ages?
It would align with the picture below. The Temple being patterned in several ways so why not the number of eons?
(http://home.online.nl/spamfree/TempleAges.gif)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 06:22:36 PM
7 spirits, 7 days, 7 millenia, 7 trumpets, 7 ages?
It would align with the picture below. The Temple being patterned in several ways so why not the number of eons?
(http://home.online.nl/spamfree/TempleAges.gif)
I would say this eon is the holy place, the realm of pentecost.
When Jesus died the Temple curtain rent. I think we are in the age that was until they hidden by that curtain.
(http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/diagram-of-inside-of-temple-in-jerusalem-from-biblestudy-dot-org.jpg)
(http://www.tgm.org/TempleInWildernessFloorPlan.jpg)
(http://www.tgm.org/TempleOfManFloorPlan.jpg)
Wow I really need to study the temple. That's my next study.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
When Jesus died the Temple curtain rent. I think we are in the age that was until they hidden by that curtain.
I'm not following what you're saying here. Could you rephrase?
Quote from: reFORMer on July 19, 2012, 08:24:27 AM
Quote from: lomarah on July 19, 2012, 01:43:39 AM
Very cool reFORMer! Did you know her, or speak with her at all?
Dora's friend Flo, at who's house she lived, kept us (me and Dora) eating together at her table. I had almost no money at all, just a little from odd jobs here and there. No car, few new books, I had only enough for food and laundry, taking into consideration the gifts the people of Westgate Tabernacle gave me. Dora's office was like our living room. We shared a lot of the things God had done In our lives over the years and how He'd taught us.
I really wanted tapes of her messages and copies of the books she wrote. It was in this circumstance I stumbled in pride. I'm sure she would have given them to me if I'd asked; but, I was too proud. She was so humble she may have thought I was far enough along I didn't need her teachings or I may have given the impression I looked down on her and didn't need what she had. Here was another of my many failures to enter on into relationships due to lack of love I'm trying not to remember so much. The truth was I only wanted them if I could pay for them. I only have a few things from her now as a result. I helped make several of her books. She did some VCR messages that were for a series of programs in African Television. I did some illustrations, some charts that were shown along with her teaching. These series were used there at Westgate too.
Very cool! I LOVE her writings that I've read so far, very obviously inspired by Him!
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 19, 2012, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
When Jesus died the Temple curtain rent. I think we are in the age that was until they hidden by that curtain.
I'm not following what you're saying here. Could you rephrase?
Sure that's always a rewording thing to do :-)
Mat 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
What room was behind that curtain?
That room is the current age.
At least that's my view.
Quote from: lomarah on July 19, 2012, 06:50:46 PM
Wow I really need to study the temple. That's my next study.
And your last. It's
extremly complex.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 07:23:58 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 19, 2012, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
When Jesus died the Temple curtain rent. I think we are in the age that was until they hidden by that curtain.
I'm not following what you're saying here. Could you rephrase?
Sure that's always a rewording thing to do :-)
Mat 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
What room was behind that curtain?
That room is the current age.
At least that's my view.
wouldn't this be the curtain that separated the Holy Place from the outer court?
In that case, it would agree with RHM --Pentecost--the age of Grace.
Also, these ages seem to be being defined by the people God is setting apart, rather than everyone else, in the way you are counting them, which makes sense to me.
Adam-Moses [flood is in there--two ages?]
Moses-Jesus [Law]
Jesus-return of Christ [Grace]
reign of Christ
second resurrection
God all in all
That's 7
Im not sure which veil was torn,but I do think its the one to the HOH. But according to Hebrews 4 nobody(most?) has entered in to His rest, which is the HOH IMO.
So the veil was torn, which means the way is open, like the first born opening the womb (which btw is always the hardest most painful of deliveries), it remains for many/all to be born. But the labor pains are growing.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5538/temple3a.jpg)
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/7998/templebig.jpg)
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1552/therebuildingofthejewis.jpg)
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3963/temple2n.jpg)
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 19, 2012, 07:41:39 PM
Im not sure which veil was torn,but I do think its the one to the HOH. But according to Hebrews 4 nobody(most?) has entered in to His rest, which is the HOH IMO.
So the veil was torn, which means the way is open, like the first born opening the womb (which btw is always the hardest most painful of deliveries), it remains for many/all to be born. But the labor pains are growing.
There is a veil but also 2 massive brass doors.
Looking at the diagrams the veil is in the inner Temple.
Second "photo" from the post just above. I think the red is the curtain.
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2012, 07:32:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 07:23:58 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 19, 2012, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
When Jesus died the Temple curtain rent. I think we are in the age that was until they hidden by that curtain.
I'm not following what you're saying here. Could you rephrase?
Sure that's always a rewording thing to do :-)
Mat 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
What room was behind that curtain?
That room is the current age.
At least that's my view.
wouldn't this be the curtain that separated the Holy Place from the outer court?
First picture reply #30
Do you mean Nicanor Gate?
I think the tabernacle is the ideal pattern. I don't think there are any prescriptions for much of what makes up the most recent temple. There is no description of Solomons is there?
If thats the case then its all veils, 3 of them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 07:24:53 PM
Quote from: lomarah on July 19, 2012, 06:50:46 PM
Wow I really need to study the temple. That's my next study.
And your last. It's extremly complex.
And
extremely important too! And when I say study it's probably not the same kind of studying you're thinking of haha. If only I had the time!
Read: Exodus 26:31-35
Within the Holy Place of the tabernacle, there was an inner room called the Holy of
Holies, or the Most Holy Place. During the Israelites' wanderings in the wilderness, God
appeared as a pillar of cloud or fire in and above the Holy of Holies. The Holy of Holies
was a perfect cube — its length, width and height were all equal to 15 feet.
A thick curtain separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place. This curtain, known as
the "veil," was made of fine linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn. There were figures of
cherubim (angels) embroidered onto it.
Only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies one day out of every year, on the Day
of Atonement. Before entering, he had to make some meticulous preparations, as
recorded in Leviticus 16:2-19: He had to wash himself, put on special clothing, bring
burning incense to let the smoke cover his eyes from a direct view of God, because "no
man can see Me and live" (Exodus 33:20). He brought blood with him to make
atonement for sins.
Discussion:
1. Why does the name Holy of Holies or Most Holy Place imply about that room?
It was the most sacred room, a place no ordinary person could enter. God dwelled
above the Ark of the Covenant in that room. Whoever entered into the Holy of
Holies was entering the very presence of God.
2. The word "veil" in Hebrew means a screen, divider or separator that hides. What was
the curtain hiding? Why was it necessary?
It was shielding a holy God from sinful man. The picture of the veil was that of a
barrier between man and God, showing man that the holiness of God could not be
trifled with. God's eyes are too pure to look on evil and He can tolerate no sin
(Habakkuk 1:13). The veil was a barrier to make sure that man could not
carelessly and irreverently enter into God's awesome presence.
3. There were cherubim embroidered on the veil. What was their significance?
The embroidered cherubim demonstrated God's almighty power and majesty. They
were in God's presence to serve Him and guarded the throne of God. These
cherubim were also on the innermost layer of covering of the tent. If one looked
upward, one would see the cherubim figures.
4. Read Hebrews 9:7 describing the one scheduled day in a year (the Day of Atonement)
that the high priest could pass through the veil and enter the Holy of Holies. What did
the high priest have to bring with him and why?
He had to bring the blood of animals with him to atone for the sins of himself and
the nation of Israel. If he did not bring blood, he would not be acceptable before
God because of his sins. He would be guilty and would die in God's presence.
5. Read Mark 15:37-38. What happened to the curtain in the Jerusalem temple (a much
larger replica of the tabernacle) when Jesus died? Who could have torn it?
When Jesus died, the curtain in the Jerusalem temple was torn in half, from the top
to the bottom. Only God could have carried out such an incredible feat because the
veil was too high for human hands to have reached it, and too thick to have torn it.
(The Jerusalem temple, a replica of the wilderness tabernacle, had a curtain that
was about 60 feet in height, 30 feet in width and four inches thick.) Furthermore, it
was torn from top down, meaning this act must have come from above.
6. What does the veil represent? What is the significance of the torn veil?
The veil represents the body of Jesus. His body was broken for us as He died on the
cross. As the veil was torn, the Holy of Holies was exposed and God's presence was
now accessible to man. Jesus' death opened the way for us to come to God by
atoning for all our sins and making us right before God. The age of animal
offerings was over and the high priest no longer had to enter the Holy of Holies
every year with blood. The ultimate offering had been sacrificed.
7. What is the implication of the broken body of Christ and the torn curtain for us as
believers?
If we believe in Christ's substitutionary sacrifice for us, our sins are forgiven and
we have access to God. There is no longer a veil hiding God's presence from us.
Although we were sinners, we are now clothed with Christ's righteousness and can
enter boldly into God's presence. (Ref. Hebrews 6:19-20 and 10:19-22.)
8. Read Hebrews 9:24. What was the Holy of Holies a representation of and how does it
relate to us?
The Holy of Holies is a representation of heaven itself, God's dwelling place, which
we have access to through Christ. When we die physically, we will enter into
heaven and be in the presence of God eternally. (Additional fact: In Revelations
21:16, John's vision of heaven — the New Jerusalem — also was a perfect square,
just as the Holy of Holies was!)
http://www.goodseed.com/pdf/tabernacle/tab_lesson08.pdf
QuoteFirst picture reply #30
Do you mean Nicanor Gate?
um..I tend to think in terms of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, but
There is a place where anyone can go--court of the Gentiles--the court outside the Temple.
The cross broke down the wall [veil, curtain] between Greek and Jew. So it made Greek = Jew.
So that would be the curtain [wall, veil] between the court of the Gentiles and the inside court of the Temple itself where Gentiles were formerly not allowed to enter.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:14
(http://templemountlocation.com/HerodTempleCourts1.jpg)
http://templemountlocation.com/HerodTempleCourts.html
(http://www.mormonblog.com/content_images/2/JEWISH_TEMPLE_MAP.jpg)
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2012, 08:02:37 PM
The cross broke down the wall [veil, curtain] between Greek and Jew. So it made Greek = Jew.
So that would be the curtain [wall, veil] between the court of the Gentiles and the inside court of the Temple itself where Gentiles were formerly not allowed to enter.
I think the question is; who moved closer to God?
Questions:
a] Only Jews?
b] Only Gentiles?
c] Both?
Answers:
a] Wrong.
b] If so the Jews didn't benefit from Jesus. They stayed were there were and the Gentiles join them at that place.
c] That means the Jews progress 1 step. But the Gentiles several steps.
Understand what I mean?
Quote from: lomarah on July 19, 2012, 07:57:38 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2012, 07:24:53 PM
Quote from: lomarah on July 19, 2012, 06:50:46 PM
Wow I really need to study the temple. That's my next study.
And your last. It's extremly complex.
And extremely important too! And when I say study it's probably not the same kind of studying you're thinking of haha. If only I had the time!
you are still under the 21 gun salute that is Joshie and friends. lol
This is a great short story.
THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren't only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General.
Some things about living still weren't quite right, though. April for instance, still drove people crazy by not being springtime. And it was in that clammy month that the H-G men took George and Hazel Bergeron's fourteen-year-old son, Harrison, away.
It was tragic, all right, but George and Hazel couldn't think about it very hard. Hazel had a perfectly average intelligence, which meant she couldn't think about anything except in short bursts. And George, while his intelligence was way above normal, had a little mental handicap radio in his ear. He was required by law to wear it at all times. It was tuned to a government transmitter. Every twenty seconds or so, the transmitter would send out some sharp noise to keep people like George from taking unfair advantage of their brains.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Harrison Bergeron
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html
Aint that the truth lol! Joshie & friends keep me occupied for sure. The only reason I get on here so often is because of my phone lol!
Liked your story. :) (You all would have to take in four kids and try to study the Bible in order to be equally fair to me hahaha! Wings would LOVE that. :D)
Get a tablet.
Kidz = dying to self? :P
In a major way it does = dying to self. Life before kids: do whatever you want whenever you want. Life after kids: have to get a sitter just to have a shower LOL. (I'm exaggerating... a little.) It's very worth it though. I think most parents can vouch that we would die for our kids anyhow. :)
As far as I can figure out the curtain was huge.
20 meters = 22 yards high. 10 meters = 11 yards wide.
It was a hand palm thick.
It took 300 priests to carry it. Estimated weigth 4-6 tons.
When comparing the many small doors to the rest of the bulding they can't be 20 meters high.
Besides the fact that they are doors and not curtains.
The centurion saw it happen; so but be viewable from mt. Olives.
It's also reasonbly to assume it's the curtain that's most important. Not some minor curtain without importance. It would be to small to see from the crucifixion spot.
(http://home.online.nl/spamfree/TempleAges.gif)
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 19, 2012, 06:24:43 PM
I would say this eon is the holy place, the realm of pentecost.
That would mean past the Laver (LoF imo)
The Two Veils
At last this brings us to the subject of the veils. Now there are two distinct veils in the NT. The first is the veil of the temple (Matt. 27: 51, Mark 15: 38, Luke 23: 45) and the second is the veil of the tabernacle (Heb. 6: 19, 9: 3, 10: 20). The temple veil was rent when Christ died; the tabernacle veil was never rent. Both facts are of equal importance although many speak of 'the rent veil' as if there was only one. To understand the difference between these two veils, one must understand something of the contrast between the temple and the tabernacle.
More: http://judev3.co.uk/59TwoVeilsNotOne.htm (http://judev3.co.uk/59TwoVeilsNotOne.htm)
#27 Veil of the Temple
And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made... and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy. - Exodus 26:31,33
Text: Mark 15:38
Prop: a small curtain
Summary: God used the veil of the temple as a barrier to access the Holiest of Holies. This separation ended as He became the mediator between God and man.
Today I want to share with you about a curtain, or veil, that was placed to separate the sanctuary from the Holiest of Holies in the tabernacle. It was actually a veil that served to separate God from man. This portion of the tabernacle was entered into once a year by the high priest to make an atonement, or sin offering, for the whole nation of Israel.
There is something else I want to explain. It has to do with tearing of the robe. If a king were really mad about something, to show his displeasure, he would tear or rend his robe from top to bottom. He would start at the collar and tear it until he exposed his undergarments and that was shameful. It meant that he was really upset about whatever had happened.
When Jesus was crucified for our sins on the cross, some amazing things happened. For one thing, there was a supernatural darkness that covered the land for three hours while Jesus hung on the cross. He willingly gave up his spirit; it was not taken from him by the crucifixion. A great earthquake shook the ground when he died. In Matthew 27:51 the Bible says And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. Imagine that! It was God the Father that was upset that Jesus had died. He showed his indignation by tearing the veil of the temple in two from top to bottom. The veil which separated God from man had been removed by the sacrifice Jesus made for our sins. Jesus, not a high priest, was now the mediator between God and man. All who seek forgiveness of sins must ask Jesus. He is the One that paid the price for all mankind.
The writer of Hebrews said it eloquently in Hebrews 10:19-22 "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having a high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
So if the outer veil was rent, then I'd say we're in pentecost, and the separation between the inner court and the outer court was removed. Those two courts make up the second resurrection possibly (wheat being threshed in the wine press). Only those who are in Christ enter into the HOH, the first resurrection. As far as the laver being the LOF and us being in the outer court age, it says everyone is salted with fire, and the saints are present during the testing in the LOF of those requiring refining, so I don't know if the laver is only for outer court. Or since outer and inner are now one in essence then we are in a hybrid of pentecost/passover, which would describe the church at large. Gifts vs. cessation of gifts, baptists vs. pentecostals etc.
Ultimately :dontknow:
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 20, 2012, 03:31:05 PM
So if the outer veil was rent, then I'd say we're in pentecost, and the separation between the inner court and the outer court was removed. Those two courts make up the second resurrection possibly (wheat being threshed in the wine press). Only those who are in Christ enter into the HOH, the first resurrection. As far as the laver being the LOF and us being in the outer court age, it says everyone is salted with fire, and the saints are present during the testing in the LOF of those requiring refining, so I don't know if the laver is only for outer court.
Barley = Overcomers in "The Holy of Holies" *
Wheat = believers in "The Holy"
Grapes = Nations in "The court" = "This eon"
That would mean different groups live in different eons... A whole new approach.... :-)
*= There are 3 ages in "The Holy of Holies" ?
TEMPLE OF HEROD:
Table of Contents
Dimensions.
The Temple Courts.
The Cloisters.
The Gates.
In the eighteenth year (20-19 B.C.) of his reign Herod rebuilt the Temple on a more magnificent scale. There are many evidences that he shared the passion for building by which many powerful men of that time were moved. He had adorned many cities and had erected many heathen temples; and it was not fitting that the temple of his capital should fall beneath these in magnificence. Probably, also, one of his motives was to placate the more pious of his subjects, whose sentiments he had often outraged.
The Jews were loth to have their Temple pulled down, fearing lest it might not be rebuilt. To demonstrate his good faith, Herod acccumulated the materials for the new building before the old one was taken down. The new Temple was rebuilt as rapidly as possible, being finished in a year and a half, although work was in progress on the out-buildings and courts for eighty years. As it was unlawful for any but priests to enter the Temple, Herod employed 1,000 of them as masons and carpenters.
Dimensions.
The Temple proper as reconstructed by Herod was of the same dimensions as that of Solomon, viz.: 60 cubits long, 20 cubits wide, and 40 cubits high. This space was divided into the Holy of Holies and the "Hekal." The former measured 20 x 20 cubits; the latter, 20 x 40 ("B.J." v. 5, § 5). At the entrance to the outer Temple hung a veil embroidered in blue, white (byssus), scarlet, and purple; the outer Temple was separated from the Holy of Holies by a similar curtain.
<----two veils in Herod's Temple
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14304-temple-of-herod
The only mention of the Ark in the Prophets is the reference to it by Jeremiah, who, speaking in the days of Josiah (Jer. iii. 16), prophesies a time when the Ark will no longer be needed because of the righteousness of the people.
In the Psalms the Ark is twice referred to. In Ps. lxxviii. 61 its capture by the Philistines is spoken of, and the Ark is called "the strength and glory of God"; and in Ps. cxxxii. 8, it is spoken of as "the ark of the strength of the Lord." The Ark is mentioned in only one passage in the Apocrypha (II Macc. ii. 4-10), which contains a legend to the effect that the prophet Jeremiah, "being warned of God," took the Ark, and the tabernacle, and the altar of incense, and buried them in a cave on Mount Sinai, informing those of his followers who wished to find the place that it should remain unknown "until the time that God should gather His people again together, and receive them unto mercy."
--Jewish Encyclopedia
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1777-ark-of-the-covenant
In Herod's Temple, the Holy of Holies was empty. There was no Ark of the Covenant.
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 19, 2012, 07:51:25 PM
I think the tabernacle is the ideal pattern. I don't think there are any prescriptions for much of what makes up the most recent temple. There is no description of Solomons is there?
If thats the case then its all veils, 3 of them.
The second Temple was exactly (God gave very strickt dimensions) like Solomon's Temple. But later Herod renovated/enlarged it.
(http://www.oocities.org/theseder2/templeSolomons.jpg)
(http://www.oocities.org/theseder2/templediagram.jpg)
The GREENsquare represents Solomon's original Temple compound.
The BLUEsquare represents Herod's enlarged Temple compound when he enlarged the size of the old complex on the North, West, and South before 70 AD
The RED square in the middle represents the partition wall (soreg) that no gentile could go beyond, to do so would mean certain death. http://www.oocities.org/theseder2/templeDiagram.html (http://www.oocities.org/theseder2/templeDiagram.html)