Hey everybody, I'm kind of back. Probably not as much as I used to be, but I might stop by now and again. I've decided that, due to the way I think (because of my OCD problems), putting myself into these theological discussions and trying to figure all of this out, isn't so good for me. But I can talk about some things.
Anyway, I was hoping some of you could give me some information on the beliefs on Gehenna (or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom) before the time of Jesus and at the time of Jesus. As far as I can gather, the Jews didn't think of it as anything special, but I'm wanting to double check on that. Also, if there's any modern day information on what they thought, as opposed to articles written in the 1800s or even early 90s, that'd be awesome. I'm just trying to double check my information. I believe that the information within Tentmaker seems mostly accurate, but I don't want to run off and give information that can be refuted.
Thanks,
Tim
Good old wiki is a good non Christian resource http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
Hi Tim,
August 2004
We have also demonstrated from the Tanach
and the Sages that the forgiveness of sin can be
attained with or without the Temple standing, and
without a blood sacrifice.ÊÊ
There is much to be said about the creation and
greatness of repentance. I will only quote a
couple of sources from the Sages of Israel:
"Yet was the fire of the Gehenna created on the
eve of the Sabbath? Surely it was taught: Seven
things were created before the world was
created, and these are they: The Torah,
repentance, the Garden of Eden, Gehenna, the
Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the
Messiah".[18]
Ê
"It was taught: R Meir used to say, Great is
repentance, for on account of an individual who
repents, (does not need to die)[19] the sins of all
the world are forgiven, as it is said: I will heal
their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine
anger is turned away from him. 'From them' it is
not said, but 'from him."[20] [21]Ê
December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.
August 2008
Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?
---
Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com
Hi Tim:
The Talmud might be of some use to you. You can read it online at:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm
If you have e-sword, it is available as a module you can download. :thumbsup:
you'll find many information there:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/mercyandjudgment/mercy_and_judgment_ch8.html
I wanted to investigate this issue also, but you find little and contradictive information.
As far as I know:
- Gehenna is found in the LXX in Josua 18:16 as the name of a place, the valley of Hinnom
- It is found in none of the apocrypha included in the LXX (Books of Makkabees, Psalms of Solomon etc.)
- It is not found in the book of Enoch, though there is mention made of an accursed valley, which can be interpreted as meaning Gehenna
- It is however found in the apocalypse of Esra which is of uncertain date, this book as far as I know is only preserved in Latin, some versions of the KJV include it as far as I know
neither the historican Flavius Josephus nor the philosopher Philo Judaeus, both contemporary with Christ seem to be familiar with the term Gehenna in the sense of a place of future punishment, though both write about this subject.
the Jewish sources (Talmud, Targumim) seem to be of uncertain date
I would like to know if Gehenna appears in the Qumran writings but I was not able to find any information, according to wikipedia, Gehenna does not appear in the Dead Sea Scroll writings
Quote from: friendofmankind on December 25, 2009, 11:40:11 PM
Good old wiki is a good non Christian resource http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna
I actually like the definition of Sheol best from its page off of Wiki. lol
Thanks for this too, it's got some interesting information on it.
Thanks everybody for your input! :thumbsup:
I came across an interesting work
The ascension of Isaiah, it mentions Gehenna and seems to teach annihilation
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ascension.html
1:3
And of the eternal judgments and torments of Gehenna, and of the prince of this world, and of his angels, and his authorities and his powers.
I suppose "eternal" is olam as it seems to preserved only in Ethiopic language, as the work later teaches annihilation, we might understand, "the judgment and the punishment of Gehenna in the world to come"
4:14
And after (one thousand) three hundred and thirty-two days the Lord will come with His angels and with the armies of the holy ones from the seventh heaven with the glory of the seventh heaven, and He will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies.
4:18
Then the voice of the Beloved will in wrath rebuke the things of heaven and the things of earth and the things of earth and the mountains and the hills and the cities and the desert and the forests and the angel of the sun and that of the moon, and all things wherein Beliar manifested himself and acted openly in this world, and there will be [a resurrection and] a judgment in their midst in those days, and the Beloved will cause fire to go forth from Him, and it will consume all the godless, and they will be as though they had not been created.
the idea of annihilation is so evident here, that we can understand "eternal" only as of finite duration here
I believe the Jews thought of Gehenna of a place of purgatorial suffering for ones sins till atonement has been achieved. So, it seems like the Apostles knew exactly what Jesus was talking about as a place for temporary punishment.
Quote from: Universalist Catholic on March 01, 2010, 10:12:07 PM
I believe the Jews thought of Gehenna of a place of purgatorial suffering for ones sins till atonement has been achieved. So, it seems like the Apostles knew exactly what Jesus was talking about as a place for temporary punishment.
I'm not so sure of that. The Talmud was written centuries after Jesus. I have yet to read anything directly from that time on Gehenna and it's meaning to the people of that time other than the literal. I believe the whole Gehenna debate is crucial for the UR argument. Getting to the root of the meaning at the time Jesus spoke it is vitally important for UR.
UR isn't based on one thing. But because Scripture can't contradicts it's indeed very important. But also for ET and ED.
Your question about the Jews of Jesus' time is a very good one imo.
I don't have a direct answer, but this thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg96182#msg96182) at least gives you some proof UR was widely accepted in the first centuries after Jesus.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1337665
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
http://harvestherald.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/how-a-valley-in-jerusalem-got-turned-into-hell/
http://faithdefenders.com/sheol-hades-and-gehenna/
The rabbinic tradition before, during, and after the time of Christ describes the soul departing the body and descending into Sheol at death.9 The rabbis consistently pictured both the righteous and the wicked as conscious after death.10 The evidence is so overwhelming that the classic Princeton theologian, Charles Hodge, stated, "That the Jews believed in a conscious life after death is beyond dispute.11
The annihilationists have never discovered any evidence that the majority of Jews believed that the soul was extinguished at death. There is no conflict in the rabbinic literature over this issue.12
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
Quote from: shawn on June 26, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
Here's another thought on this then. AT THAT TIME, who was Jesus
primarily speaking to, and about what? I admittedly don't understand it all, and have some questions about it myself, but here goes - I believe an argument can be made that Jesus'
earthly ministry was
primarily to the House of Israel, and
primarily regarding the Kingdom having to do with the Jews and their upcoming judgment in 70 AD. So in that context, Gehenna actually
was the place where the Jewish leadership, who lost their position of privilege, had their bodies thrown in shame and burned, when Jerusalem fell and the temple (along with temple worship) was destroyed. There, the fire burned continuously (was not quenched), and the worms ate the flesh of the corpses (died not). I would also think there was screaming and gnashing of teeth. Anyway, a couple of points of reference are the scriptures, "But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." (Mt. 15:24), and "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' (Luke 8:10).
So for me, I'm not sure Jesus talking about Gehenna actually
was the absolute most "important" piece of things when we're talking about issues of punishment/correction/reconciliation in later ages to come. :dunno2:
That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:10
Quote from: shawn on June 26, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
So there are prime quality verses and sub standard verses in the Bible?
I think that's a good point, WW. "Every word/all scripture..."
With my particular comment, I'm just kind of seeing a picture of context/what "exactly" is being discussed. I.e., was Gehenna primarily used for its purpose then (prior to and including the judgments of 70 AD) and/or was it definitely also symbolic of "hell".
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/HellPhotos/index.htm
Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2010, 10:26:42 AMSo for me, I'm not sure Jesus talking about Gehenna actually was the absolute most "important" piece of things when we're talking about issues of punishment/correction/reconciliation in later ages to come. :dunno2:
If Gehenna is taken literally as hell that's fine with me because it also proves hell is not eternal.
Many thousands Jews were burned in Gehenna during/after the Jewish war that ended in 70 AD. The whole area was a wasteland because the Romans used about everything to keep the fires going until all the bodies were burned up.
The people cast in Gehenna were all dead.
Quote from: jabcat on June 26, 2010, 10:26:42 AM
Quote from: shawn on June 26, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
Here's another thought on this then. AT THAT TIME, who was Jesus primarily speaking to, and about what? I admittedly don't understand it all, and have some questions about it myself, but here goes - I believe an argument can be made that Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to the House of Israel, and primarily regarding the Kingdom having to do with the Jews and their upcoming judgment in 70 AD. So in that context, Gehenna actually was the place where the Jewish leadership, who lost their position of privilege, had their bodies thrown in shame and burned, when Jerusalem fell and the temple (along with temple worship) was destroyed. There, the fire burned continuously (was not quenched), and the worms ate the flesh of the corpses (died not). I would also think there was screaming and gnashing of teeth. Anyway, a couple of points of reference are the scriptures, "But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." (Mt. 15:24), and "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' (Luke 8:10).
So for me, I'm not sure Jesus talking about Gehenna actually was the absolute most "important" piece of things when we're talking about issues of punishment/correction/reconciliation in later ages to come. :dunno2:
That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:10
Amen jabcat!!
CHB
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 26, 2010, 11:10:34 AM
Quote from: shawn on June 26, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
So there are prime quality verses and sub standard verses in the Bible?
I wouldn't say substandard but some are more relevant to man now then they were 2-3000 years ago wouldn't you think? I could be entirely wrong but there are verses about what we should eat/shouldn't eat, wear, women's role in ministry etc that might not be as relevant. So, I do pay special attention to the words of Christ because he is who I attempt to emulate.
Quote from: shawn on June 27, 2010, 12:48:12 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 26, 2010, 11:10:34 AM
Quote from: shawn on June 26, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
So there are prime quality verses and sub standard verses in the Bible?
I wouldn't say substandard but some are more relevant to man now then they were 2-3000 years ago wouldn't you think? I could be entirely wrong but there are verses about what we should eat/shouldn't eat, wear, women's role in ministry etc that might not be as relevant. So, I do pay special attention to the words of Christ because he is who I attempt to emulate.
Ok, I can understand that. But isn't that a more OT vs NT thing? Assuming all verses are HS inspired and no copying errors crept in all verses are of equal quality.
KJV2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 27, 2010, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: shawn on June 27, 2010, 12:48:12 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 26, 2010, 11:10:34 AM
Quote from: shawn on June 26, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Interesting stuff. While I realize there is alot more to UR than Gehenna...for me it's the most important because it came from the mouth of Jesus.
So there are prime quality verses and sub standard verses in the Bible?
I wouldn't say substandard but some are more relevant to man now then they were 2-3000 years ago wouldn't you think? I could be entirely wrong but there are verses about what we should eat/shouldn't eat, wear, women's role in ministry etc that might not be as relevant. So, I do pay special attention to the words of Christ because he is who I attempt to emulate.
Ok, I can understand that. But isn't that a more OT vs NT thing? Assuming all verses are HS inspired and no copying errors crept in all verses are of equal quality.
KJV2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
:2c:
Well lets put it this way...if Jesus in all his ministry never refers to ET...then that's very strong evidence that God has made way for other options. So, that is where I look. If Jesus does refer to ET then I would say that's the way it goes we need to deal with it. I am in no way saying that the NT scripture isn't Holy Spirit inspired. But, knowing what Jesus said on the subject might help shed light on scriptures which UR uses to support their stance.
Hi again Shawn,
Yes you are right about:
Quote"if Jesus in all his ministry never refers to ET...then that's very strong evidence that God has made way for other options."
Let's assume for a moment Jesus never mentioned ET. But Mark does. Then imo ET exists.
Back to Gehenna. You are right that the way Jesus and/or teh average Jew thought about that place may be a strong hint about ET. According to Jewish scholars they never believed in ET. (It's Greek/Roman stuff)
I do agree with your reply that possibly the Jews have changed their views in the last 2000 years.
The views of the Jews are based on OT. If you can't find ET hints in OT you also know their views (at that time)
A way to better understand the views of that time may be reading none Biblical texts. For example quotes from the early church fathers. Up to the time of Augustine there were many debates on false doctrines. But never UR was named as one. Counsils even had UR members and leaders. Of course that doesn't directly answer your question about Gehenna; but indirectly it does because with Gehenna=hell there can be no UR
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg97996#msg97996 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg97996#msg97996)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 27, 2010, 09:25:44 AM
Hi again Shawn,
Yes you are right about: Quote"if Jesus in all his ministry never refers to ET...then that's very strong evidence that God has made way for other options."
Let's assume for a moment Jesus never mentioned ET. But Mark does. Then imo ET exists.
Back to Gehenna. You are right that the way Jesus and/or teh average Jew thought about that place may be a strong hint about ET. According to Jewish scholars they never believed in ET. (It's Greek/Roman stuff)
I do agree with your reply that possibly the Jews have changed their views in the last 2000 years.
The views of the Jews are based on OT. If you can't find ET hints in OT you also know their views (at that time)
A way to better understand the views of that time may be reading none Biblical texts. For example quotes from the early church fathers. Up to the time of Augustine there were many debates on false doctrines. But never UR was named as one. Counsils even had UR members and leaders. Of course that doesn't directly answer your question about Gehenna; but indirectly it does because with Gehenna=hell there can be no UR
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg97996#msg97996 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg97996#msg97996)
You won't hear me disagree with that. With that said, we have verses that both sides have explanations for...reconciliation of all etc. So, by looking at Gehenna and what Jesus said on the subject it can better shed light on those particular verses. It can be used as a key to proper interpretation. Therefore in my mind Gehenna is a crucial element.
Quote from: shawn on June 27, 2010, 08:49:58 PMIt can be used as a key to proper interpretation. Therefore in my mind Gehenna is a crucial element.
The Bible is full of keys. Surely it's good to study/focus on a certain (gehenna).
But what if no progress is made? Then perhaps time is better spend with looking at other keys? Scripture doesn't contradict. So if you find just one key that 100% sure proves UR, ED or ET you can stop your study..
Just my opnion. Your life, your time, your study :thumbsup:
Quote from: shawn on June 27, 2010, 08:49:58 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 27, 2010, 09:25:44 AM
Hi again Shawn,
Yes you are right about: Quote"if Jesus in all his ministry never refers to ET...then that's very strong evidence that God has made way for other options."
Let's assume for a moment Jesus never mentioned ET. But Mark does. Then imo ET exists.
Back to Gehenna. You are right that the way Jesus and/or teh average Jew thought about that place may be a strong hint about ET. According to Jewish scholars they never believed in ET. (It's Greek/Roman stuff)
I do agree with your reply that possibly the Jews have changed their views in the last 2000 years.
The views of the Jews are based on OT. If you can't find ET hints in OT you also know their views (at that time)
A way to better understand the views of that time may be reading none Biblical texts. For example quotes from the early church fathers. Up to the time of Augustine there were many debates on false doctrines. But never UR was named as one. Counsils even had UR members and leaders. Of course that doesn't directly answer your question about Gehenna; but indirectly it does because with Gehenna=hell there can be no UR
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg97996#msg97996 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8166.msg97996#msg97996)
You won't hear me disagree with that. With that said, we have verses that both sides have explanations for...reconciliation of all etc. So, by looking at Gehenna and what Jesus said on the subject it can better shed light on those particular verses. It can be used as a key to proper interpretation. Therefore in my mind Gehenna is a crucial element.
Shawn, you didn't indicate. Did/do you consider the context, i.e., 70 AD judgments, kingdom regarding the Pharisees and Sadduccees, and what Gehenna was actually used for, as mentioned in my earlier post? If you want to consider what Jesus said about Gehenna, IMO, this is also one of the 'keys' to it. If we don't take that into cosideration, then I believe we may sort of keep heading down a "rabbit trail" - missing a key piece of information :2c: James.
Quote from: jabcat on June 27, 2010, 09:13:52 PM70 AD judgments, kingdom regarding the Pharisees and Sadduccees,
KJVMat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Generation.... :umnick:
This is an excerpt from the TM Homepage, here; http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/Ch5.html
It was to that very generation of sinful people that God was coming. The words "sinful" and "adulterous" are key words that let us know that the subjects of God's actions here are the unbelieving Jews. Only those who had the Law could be judged by it (and so be found sinful). It was the Jewish nation, once holy and set apart from all other human cultures, that had acted as a religious prostitute in accepting outside cultures, religious influences, and business practices, and by becoming entangled in legalism and worldliness, losing the heart of their religion.
This is why Jerusalem is pictured as a prostitute or harlot in the 17th and 18th chapters of Revelation. The great city (representing the entire nation) is pictured or symbolized as a woman who is:
"Full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication...the mother of harlots... drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus..."
[Revelation 17:4-6]
The formal Jewish religion had become nothing but an empty and decaying shell of the glorious thing it once was, and it was persecuting and murdering God's true people, the followers of Christ. God was going to bring about its destruction within the lifetimes of some of those disciples that Jesus spoke with. Revelation 18:8 –
"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."
Now it is made plain to us what Jesus meant by "rewarding every man according to his works" at the time of this coming. All those whose works consisted of choosing not to believe in the Christ would perish in the war and they would be eternally lost to God. (Tentmaker Ministries believes this view is in error. No one is "eternally lost." The Greek word "aionios" an adjective of "aion" means a period of time in which the end is not in view, it does not mean eternally.) Those who chose to follow Jesus would be aware of the warning signs of the coming conflict and so escape it. Revelation 18:4 –
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
The judgment that was to be delivered was also a part and parcel of this prophecy. Christ promised to enact this judgment when he came in his kingdom.
If the kingdom has come, then so has the judgment! In 1 Peter 4:17, Peter states:
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God, and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
This judgment is, of course, not limited to the Jewish nation of the first century. It is a "general" judgment on all human beings that continues today for us. Christ began immediately to reward men for their works – specifically, their works of accepting and obeying Christ in the first place as opposed to denying him and returning to the Judaism or paganism from whence they came. If their works in this regard were positive, they were – and are – rewarded with eternal life and contact with God (1 John 5:13).
On a ongoing basis, then, this judgment requires that all Christians must continue in works of righteousness rather than evil in order to stay in contact with God and remain in his Kingdom (1 John 3:9-10;5:18). Our acts of righteousness could never, of course, bring about our salvation. Christ's sacrifice for sin did that. Our acts of sin, however, certainly do judge us, and this is an ongoing judgment that began with Christ's spiritual return (for he is the High Priest and Judge in his Kingdom). Fortunately for us, our Judge is a merciful and loving one, and he will listen to our true repentance and will forgive us if we fail (1 John 2:1).
Matthew said that the event the disciples would live to see was Christ "coming in his Kingdom," and Mark said "till they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power." Does this mean that the Kingdom itself did not come into being until that event in A.D. 70? No, all the verses after the gospels that speak of the Kingdom, speak of it as established – something that all the Christian brethren were a part of. As we have seen, it had been completely established on the Day of Pentecost.
In these verses, Jesus did not say that he was coming to bring his Kingdom, instead, he was coming in his Kingdom. God and the Kingdom of God (which is God and all his peoples, and which represents all of his power) was coming in vengeance against the common enemy to destroy that enemy.
This is why, in Mark, he speaks of coming "with his angels," and coming "with power" and "in the glory of his Father." These terms are typical symbolic words found in all of the similar prophecies of the destruction of Judea, and their use here by Jesus shows us that this is the subject of this "coming."
1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-26. verses 22-24:
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end..."
Here is the great promise and hope of Christianity – the gift of eternal life with God. In this passage, Paul states the order of events. First, Christ gained eternal life when he took up his own life and returned, spiritually, to God the Father at the ascension. Second, "they that are Christ's" – the Christian disciples – received eternal life when they were baptized after Christ's coming to them on Pentecost. Then, says Paul, "comes the end." The end of what?
It was the end of the legal, religious, and social world that they all were living under–the world of the Jewish Law.
Jesus warned the people against the doctrine of the Pharisees, who are well known to have believed in endless punishment. Matt 16:6; compare verse 12. There is no doubt, that the doctrines of the Pharisees were of a partial nature. Jesus was impartial in his teachings. He was the friend of publicans and sinners, and for this the Pharisees hated him. This was the great point on which he differed from the Pharisees. Their doctrine peculiarly was a doctrine of cruelty, wrath, and partiality; his was a doctrine of love, compassion, and universal grace. No person, who will make the comparison fairly, can avoid coming to this result. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
==> Can some explain those verses? I see no mentioning of cruelty, wrath and partiality in them...
Jesus reproved the Pharisees for shutting up the kingdom of heaven. "Woe into you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matt. 23:13) These Pharisees were never charged with having shut up the kingdom of hell; that, they appear to have kept open. But they shut up the kingdom of heaven. Jesus desired to have all men enjoy his kingdom; and we are assured, that, at last, all shall know the Lord, from the least unto the greatest. They will then all have entered the gospel kingdom.
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: That "generation of vipers" still exists, spiritually speaking; they are as the poison of the asp under the tongue that continually reproduces it's nature if left to do so. This is the the tongue no man can tame. You can't tame a viper, to keep it from biting you; you can only cut it's head off. Out of the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks. Blessings....
Yes Card, I believe this is one of those instances (of MANY :bigGrin:) where there's a primary, contextual meaning, then ongoing spiritual applications. (As is much if not most of the scriptures, IMO - those different, deeper layers). I'm just encouraging that the primary setting be considered in this Gehenna discussion.
:cloud9: Gotcha....but you know me....always "reading the fine print", LOL.....Blessings...
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 27, 2010, 09:41:13 PM
Jesus warned the people against the doctrine of the Pharisees, who are well known to have believed in endless punishment. Matt 16:6; compare verse 12. There is no doubt, that the doctrines of the Pharisees were of a partial nature. Jesus was impartial in his teachings. He was the friend of publicans and sinners, and for this the Pharisees hated him. This was the great point on which he differed from the Pharisees. Their doctrine peculiarly was a doctrine of cruelty, wrath, and partiality; his was a doctrine of love, compassion, and universal grace. No person, who will make the comparison fairly, can avoid coming to this result. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
==> Can some explain those verses? I see no mentioning of cruelty, wrath and partiality in them...
Jesus reproved the Pharisees for shutting up the kingdom of heaven. "Woe into you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Matt. 23:13) These Pharisees were never charged with having shut up the kingdom of hell; that, they appear to have kept open. But they shut up the kingdom of heaven. Jesus desired to have all men enjoy his kingdom; and we are assured, that, at last, all shall know the Lord, from the least unto the greatest. They will then all have entered the gospel kingdom.
What was the word the Pharisees used as the place for endless torture?
According to Dr. Harold Lovelace, after Jesus had condemned the Pharisees to "hell" in Matthew 23, He then, told them that they would not see him again UNTIL they said, "blessed is he that comes in
the name of the Lord"!!! (that's called repentance from "hell"!!!)
This first occurrence of Gehenna in the New Testament should immediately cast the popular notion of hell in a suspicious light. The verse makes almost no sense and stands as an enigma if the popular notions of the meaning of Gehenna are true. What possible logical reason is there, and what type of mental justification can we make for the differences in punishment for saying 'Raca', on the one hand, and 'thou fool' on the other, that one should be punishable by being brought before the Sanhedrin, and the other eternal conscious torment in flames for all eternity ?
What the reader is never told is that the progression of punishment described was the known judicial law of Jesus day. Gehenna Fire denotes simply the most severe form of punishment the judicial system could inflict: not only death, but to deny one proper burial and cast them into the garbage dump signifying their unworthiness of a resurrection.
http://www.harvestherald.com/challenge.htm
It appears this fellow believes in ET. But even he makes the following statement - "The Jewish Scriptures (the Christian's Old Testament), do not contain any specific teaching about Heaven and Hell, so there has always been more room in Judaism to speculate about what happens to people when they die." David Brown
AMF International
[Oops :happygrin:]
L. Ray Smith responding to John Hagee's sermon, "The Wonders of Hell".
Mr. Hagee - "Jesus believed in Hell."
Jesus never even said the word "hell" so how could He believe in it? Mark 9:46-- " ... to be cast into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire, where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out." This is not "hell." This is "Gehenna." So why call it "hell?" The exact Greek word is Ge'enna (in Hebrew it is: RAVINE-of-HINNOM). It is a ravine just below Jerusalem where the city waste was incinerated.
What justification is there in translating this ravine into the English word "hell?"
You're not " ... distinguishing the things that differ" (Phil. 1:10).
You are not " ... having a pattern of sound words" (II Tim. 1:13-14).
You are "adding to" the Word of God" (Rev. 22:18-19).
You are following the "traditions of men" (Col. 2:8).
The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. Gehenna is a real place. This place existed at the time Jesus spoke these very words. It was burning with fire, with a daily supply of garbage, and a daily supply of worms to eat it. But if you go there today, it is not burning and there are no worms. This Gehenna is not eternal
How is it that learned men can so pervert and corrupt God's Word? There is not one word in either the Greek or Hebrew languages that means "a place where evil dead people suffer in fire for all eternity." What "exact" Greek or Hebrew word has such a meaning
"John 3:16: You perish in the place called Hell."
I'll quote John 3:16:
"For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."
I'll quote it from the King James:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I'm sorry, Mr. Hagee, but I don't see where John 3:16 says that: "You perish in the place called Hell?"
And how long is this ... to last? For all eternity? Get a concordance and read it. The Greek word translated in the Authorized Version "everlasting" is aionion. And I proved conclusively in the beginning of this letter that aionion means "age lasting" or "eonian," not eternally or everlasting.
Quote from: shawn on June 28, 2010, 05:49:05 AMWhat was the word the Pharisees used as the place for endless torture?
I don't know Shawn. That's why I asked how to read the verses. It should be obvious; but not for me.
The only thing that hints to endless is "ye shut up the kingdom of heaven".