Read this and found it quite interesting and humorus for all who just dont or wont get it(what ever "it" maybe when and where ever "it" comes up)...
"God invented sin and God takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL the wickedness and unfairness in life. He sent His Son to FORGIVE all that has transpired saying to ALL--
not just the "crucifiers" --"Father forgive them (all the world) for they know not what they do".
Object to God created sin?? Read Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create EVIL: I, the Lord, do all these things."
And GUESS WHAT? In the NKJV they changed the word "evil" to "calamity" and in the NIV they changed it to "disaster"!
SOOO, I looked up Genesis 2:17 in each version EXPECTING them to read "the tree of the knowledge of good and disaster/calamity..." Ha!
Guess what? It fit their theology so they left it "the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"! Wasn't THAT generous of them??" Quote from Duane
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 22, 2011, 04:18:23 PM
Read this and found it quite interesting and humorus for all who just dont or wont get it(what ever "it" maybe when and where ever "it" comes up)...
"God invented sin and God takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL the wickedness and unfairness in life. He sent His Son to FORGIVE all that has transpired saying to ALL--
not just the "crucifiers" --"Father forgive them (all the world) for they know not what they do".
Object to God created sin?? Read Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create EVIL: I, the Lord, do all these things."
And GUESS WHAT? In the NKJV they changed the word "evil" to "calamity" and in the NIV they changed it to "disaster"!
SOOO, I looked up Genesis 2:17 in each version EXPECTING them to read "the tree of the knowledge of good and disaster/calamity..." Ha!
Guess what? It fit their theology so they left it "the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"! Wasn't THAT generous of them??" Quote from Duane
The evil[ Ignorance ]The Lord Made was the carnal mind through EVE being Death, as Darkness comes BEFORE the Light[ Revelaion of HIM who IS LOVE] restoring Man from the grave~ Tis why the Night comes BEFORE the DAY~
Darkness and Light are the same to Thee[ as He created BOTH , the Night and DAY] He hides behind the veil , HIS secret [hiding] place, the darkness of the carnal Mind Until revealed through the tearing of the veil~
Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].
Psa 18:11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him [were] dark waters [and] thick clouds of the skies. ~Selah~
The whole issue is so interesting and mysterious.
James 1:13 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God for God cannot be tempted __ with evil neither tempteth he __ any man.
The logical implications of that verse can be placed in opposition to the argument that God is responsible for sin and evil. Perhaps, ultimatley, within a human viewpoint, logic dictates one view or the other. But who has known the mind of the Lord? I think the truth is a mystery wrapped in an enigma far beyond the cognitive powers of man. We make absolutes from verses that are not even necessarily saying what we imply.
In Isaiah 45:7, if the juxtaposition was Good and Evil, it would ring with a little more authority as you interpret it. But it is not good and evil, as with the tree for instance. It is peace and (hebrew)"ra"- calamity, chaos.
I am not trying to be argumentative and I am not sure I understand this paradox, but I will say this. I think it is possible we do not understand what God created. He says, "Ye are all gods". Could the gift that God gave us in creation, be a deeper level of free will than we want to accept? Is what He teaches us through trial and tribulation more about the exercise of our free will than the inevitability of His will? I think LOVE is about the proper exercise of free will, and an alignment, a harmony so to speak, that only becomes real when it is freely given. This paradigm requires absolute freedom on the part of the giver. Could God create a being with the freedom to do WHATEVER that being wants to do. I say, yes, He can. Look at Hitler, Caligula, etc. etc. It seems to me that no evil has been withheld from man. Only a freely given gift of love can overcome the evil of the self centered life, bring a peace that dispels and replaces chaos with harmony-and Jesus gave that gift. He was ABSOLUTELY FREE to go another way, as are we. He chose not to. We are learning to walk in the glorious liberty of the sons of God, so that we can bring all creation into it through the ages to come. Chaos is swallowed by peace when there is light and light is the love of God. I think the very superiority of love over hate, giving over taking, saving over killing, etc- always assured, from the beginning, that "Love wins" :o)
"And the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep and the Spirit hovered over the waters"
A picture of the condition of unregenerated man could not be clearer, so yes, darkness comes before light- but I think sometimes we look for the simplistic absolutes at either end of the spectrum of truth. To me it is more murky than that, and should be left that way, because we see through a glass darkly. After all,
"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor".
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 22, 2011, 04:18:23 PM
Read this and found it quite interesting and humorus for all who just dont or wont get it(what ever "it" maybe when and where ever "it" comes up)...
"God invented sin and God takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL the wickedness and unfairness in life. He sent His Son to FORGIVE all that has transpired saying to ALL--
not just the "crucifiers" --"Father forgive them (all the world) for they know not what they do".
Object to God created sin?? Read Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create EVIL: I, the Lord, do all these things."
And GUESS WHAT? In the NKJV they changed the word "evil" to "calamity" and in the NIV they changed it to "disaster"!
SOOO, I looked up Genesis 2:17 in each version EXPECTING them to read "the tree of the knowledge of good and disaster/calamity..." Ha!
Guess what? It fit their theology so they left it "the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"! Wasn't THAT generous of them??" Quote from Duane
Micah, it doesn't really matter what word they use.
I admit there is a difference in severity but it doesn't really matter because each of those words are the opposite of "good".
2191 רָעַע (rā'a') I,bebad, evil. Denominative verb.
Parent Noun
2191a רַע (ra') evil, distress; also adjective, evil, bad.
2191b רַֹע (rōa') badness, evil.
2191c רָעָה (rā'â) evil, misery, distress.
Cognate adjectives of the root r occur in Akkadian (raggu "bad, evil") and Phoenician (Karatepe 1. 15 "evil men": substantive "all the evil" 3. 17). The root also occurs in Ugaritic according to AisWUS, no. 2533.
The essential meaning of the root can be seen in its frequent juxtaposition with the root ṭôb. Thus Moses concluded, "See I set before you today life and what is good [ṭôb], death and what is evil/bad [ra'] (cf.Mic 3:2). Frequently they occur in the merism that one distinguishes "good and evil/bad" (II Sam 14:17; 19:35 [H 36]; I Kgs 3:9; Isa 7:15; cf. here "tree of good and evil," Gen 2:9, 17).
Since the decision that something is bad depends subjectively on one's taste, the root frequently occurs with the formula "in the eyes of." Thus Isaiah threatens those whose moral judgments are distorted: "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil." Because the Lord's judgment stands as a moral absolute, however, one can speak of objective evil, of sin. The formula 'āśâ hāra' bĕ'ênê YHWH "to do evil in the Lord's judgment" occurs frequently in the ot.
The root can have either a passive or active connotation: "misfortune, calamity," and "wickedness" respectively. It can occur in profane contexts, "bad" "repulsive," and moral contexts, "evil" "wickedness."
The denominative verb, occurring seventy-five times with meanings ranging from "displeasing, injurious," to be bad or evil [see above] inherits from its noun a dual meaning of being wrong in regard to God's original and ongoing intention and detrimental in terms of its effects on man. In some instances it may refer only to its injurious effects on man, either as physical or emotional harm to the person or as painfully unpleasant experiences. There are practically no philosophical or metaphysical connotations that bear upon theodicy or cosmology. The verbal forms of the root are basically descriptive of the interrelations between God and man and between man and man.
rā'a' designates experiences which entail physical pain (Num 16:15; I Chr 16:22; Ps 105:15), or emotional pain (Gen 43:6; Num 11:10–l1), in the case of Naomi the loss of family (Ruth 1:21; cf.I Kgs 17:20).
In the moral and religious realm of meaning, the verb denotes activity that is contrary to God's will. Bildad alludes to this aspect of meaning in Job 8:20, and the prophets Isaiah (31:2) and Zephaniah (1:12) state it more strongly. A phrase which highlights God's evaluation of action is "in his sight" which appears three times in relation to the verb (Num 22:34; Prov 24:18; Mic 3:4). Another way is to contrast rā'a' activity with God's good acts (Josh 24:15) or with good people. The latter uses a participial form and is confined to the Psalms (26:5; 37:9; 92:11 [H 12]).
The range of activity associated with rā'a' begins with rejection of God (Isa 1:4; 9:17; Jer 7:26; 16:12), particularly in the practice of idolatry (I Kgs 14:9; 16:25; II Kgs 21:11; Jer 25:6) and once the destruction of his holy place (Ps 74:3). Abuse of people and exploitation of their property is common. This includes causing physical pain (Num 16:15; Ps 22:16 [H 17]); harsh slavery in Egypt (Ex 5:22–23; Num 20:15; Deut 26:6), dishonesty (Gen 31:7; 44:5; Deut 15:9), demand for immoral relations (Gen 19:7; Jud 19:23), verbal abuse (Ps 27:2), and efforts to kill (I Sam 25:34; 26:21; Jer 38:9). In one case it involves a harsh oath (Lev 5:4) and in another King David's taking a census (but see pāqad for possibility that this was a mustering of the troops—still sinful r.l.h.) of the people (I Chr 21:17).
The biblical writers take rā'a' back into the inner sources of the acts. The people who do it lack understanding (Jer 4:22) of the true nature of their acts, yet go ahead and deliberately plan to hurt others (Prov 24:8). In fact it becomes a habit (Jer 13:23). More seriously, it becomes a compulsion (Gen 19:9; Prov 4:16; 17:4). Part of their lack of understanding is their failure to realize till too late the injury they cause themselves (I Sam 12:25; Ps 44:2 [H 3]; Jer 13:23).
God is the subject of the verb rā'a' in Ps 44:2 [H 3]; Jer 25:29; 31:28; Mic 4:6; Zech 8:14), but his infliction of pain on people is not due to viciousness; it is the just judgment of sinners who do not respond to his call for repentance. In the Old Testament, God is not depicted as committing an immoral act when he does ra'a' to the wicked.
Several times the Psalmist asked God to punish those who abuse him (64:2 [H 3]; 94:16; 119:115], but there were efforts made to urge, or even to challenge Israelites to face up to the way they ill-treat others (Lev 5:4; Josh 24:15) and to change their ways. Advice was given on how to keep from doing rā'a' (I Sam 25:34; Ps 15:4; 37:1, 8; Prov 24:19). Isaiah pointed to the future in which God promised that rā'a' would not be practiced in his holy mountain (11:9; 65:25).
ra'. Bad, evil (noun). The masculine noun ra' often is set in contrast with ṭôb (good) as opposite poles of the moral spectrum. Sometimes shālôm (peace) is given as its opposite. The noun is further defined as being that condition or action which in his (God's) sight is unacceptable (Jer 52:2; Mal 2:17; cf.Neh 9:28).
Starting with the purely secular meaning of the noun, one finds that ra' denotes physical injury (Jer 39:12), or times of distress (Amos 6:3 and the famous verse, Isa 45:7 "I bring prosperity and create disaster" NIV), but mostly denotes unethical or immoral activity against other people, whether by speech (Ps 41:3 [H 6]; 73:8; 109:20), by practice (Mic 2:1; 7:3), or by offering improper sacrifices (Mal 1:8).
Twice ra' serves as an abstract of an inner condition (Ps 7:9 [H 10]; Prov 12:21; "wickedness"), but most often it helps depict inner attitudes toward either God or man. A person may plan, desire, love, and rejoice in ra' (Ps 52:3; Prov 2:14; 6:14; 12:20), or be apathetic (Ps 36:4; cf.Prov 28:4). ra' may be a refusal to respond to God's call (Neh 9:35) which issues in an all-out surrender to this activity (II Kgs 21:9; ll Chr 33:9; Prov 1:16; Isa 59:7).
The person whose way of life is characterize by ra' has a bleak future, if he continues in it. God is against him (Isa 31:2) and has declared sentence against him (Mic 1:12). Life itself is against him (Deut 31:39; Job 2:10; 30:26; Ps 54:5; 140:11–12; Prov 13:17; 14:22; Eccl 8:9).
Left to himself, an evil person has no chance of survival. But the God who is his judge is also the one who calls him to change his ways; it must be a radical action on man's part (Ps 34:15; 37:27; Prov 3:7; Amos 5:14–15; Zech 1:4). This is a far more beneficial method than the legal method mentioned about ten times in Deut as a "putting away" ( "purge" RSV) of evil. God promises that man's turning from ra' will lead to a saving event (Job 5:19; Ps 121:7; Prov 19:23). Assurance is added to the promise (Ps 10:6; 23:4) that this salvation is an actual experience of life, which can be tied to commitment (Ps 119:101; Jer 42:6). And there is advice on how to keep free from ra'. A person is told to keep from it (Prov 6:24; Isa 56:2; Jer 7:6), which may include a strong attitude of hating ra' (Ps 97:10; Prov 8:13; Amos 5:15). Above all, do not provoke God with idols (Jer 25:7).
ra'. Evil, bad (adjective). This form of ra' qualifies the nouns to which it is related, indicating the quality or the injurious activity of the noun. The noun may designate the lack of quality or the inferior quality of things or people which are thus unable to meet standards of value or function beneficially.
In a secular sense, there are many illustrations of bad quality. First there were the ill-favored, lean cattle in Pharaoh's dream (Gen 41:21, 27), and the water which was unfit to drink (II Kgs 2:19; "naught," KJV; "bad," RSV), and trade goods which one claimed was unfit to buy (Prov 20:14 ("naughty," KJV;"bad," RSV). In II Kgs 4:41 there is reference to something ("harm," RSV) in the food of a cooking pot that was dangerous and which the prophet corrected. The adjective ra' may denote vicious beasts (Lev 26:6), angels which bring distress (Ps 78:49), famine (Ezk 5:16), diseases (Deut 7:15; 28:35, 59; II Chr 21:19; Job 2:7; Eccl 6:2). The term may refer to things which seem to function so as to bring distress, such as messenger reports (Ex 33:4; Neh 6:13) or wonders (Deut 6:22). Events (Eccl 2:17; 9:3) or the times (days) (Gen 47:9; Prov 15:15; Eccl 4:8) may go awry and be filled with distress. This adjective may designate displeasure (I Sam 29:7) or sorrow of heart (Neh 2:1–2; Prov 25:20).
More often ra' indicates moral deficiencies, moral qualities that injure oneself or others, or a condition that is below par. The measure of these negative qualities is God's evaluation (Prov 15:3) which is often couched in a phrase "in the sight of the Lord" which occurs about fifty-five times, mostly in the historical books. The term is also defined by being set in contrast to ṭôb "good" about seven times. So people who disobey God are ra' (about eleven times) especially if they provoke God with idolatry (II Kgs 17:11; etc). In some instances, ra' seems to denote the inner condition of such people (Gen 6:5; Prov 26:23; Eccl 9:3; Jer 3:17; 7:24). Note the more abstract nuance of Eccl 9:3. Negative attitudes are labeled as ra', i.e. pride (Job 35:12), resentment (Prov 15:10), resistance (Neh 9:35; cf.Ps 64:5; Ezk 13:22). Violence to others qualifies men's actions as ra' (Deut 17:5; I Sam 2:23; I Kgs 16:7; Ezk 20:44; 30:12).
God's response is not apathetic or whimsical. On the basis of adequate cause, God threatened and carried out judgment against people who had the trait of ra' (Ezr 9:13; Job 21:30; Prov 11:21).
But there is a brighter side to the situation. God also exhorted his people to turn from evil (Deut 13:12; II Kgs 17:13; II Chr 7:14; Ezk 33:11; 36:31; Zech 1:4), and declared that the prophets' main task was to proclaim this exhortation and turn people back to God (Jer 23:22). The wise man gave a promise that the obedient would be free of ra' (Eccl 8:5). Here also advice was given on how to keep free from it (Ps 141:4; Prov 4:14; Eccl 8:3).
rā'â. Evil, misery, distress, injury, wickedness. The feminine noun rā'â functions much like the masculine adjective, though somewhat more frequently. Often rā'â is an adjective too, and qualifies its nouns in terms of the negative function, or condition, and the injurious activity of the noun. God's own character and attitude measures the value of things and people (II Kgs 8:12; Jer 29:11; cf.Jon 4:2, 6). The phrase "in the sight of the Lord" appears twice (I Sam 12:17; II Kgs 21:20). God's view deals mostly with moral qualities, but man has his own standards and tends to evaluate his environment as rā'â in terms of the pain he experiences.
In a non-moral sense, things are counted as of inferior quality on the basis of their condition. The cows of Pharaoh's dream were inferior (Gen 41:3-4, 19–20), also land (Num 13:19), and the figs of Jer 24:2–3, 8 were useless for food because of their condition. Beasts were evaluated in terms of their danger to human life (seven references), so also the sword (Ps 144:10). Verbal reports, the times/days, events of life may be bearers of distress and so are rā'â (some thirty-five times). The term may designate injury done to the body (over twenty times), or the sorrow one may experience (a dozen times). The feminine noun has the capacity to collectively denote the sum of distressing happenings of life (over twenty times).
This word rā'â can label men (Num 14:27, 35; Jer 8:3) or thoughts (Ezk 38:10), but a number of times it is an abstract for the total of ungodly deeds people do, or a person's inner condition which produces such deeds. The term may label a variety of negative attitudes common to wicked people, and be extended to include the consequences of that kind of lifestyle.
In Jud 9:23; I Sam 16:14–16, 23; 18:10; 19:9 the word qualifies the noun, angels, not to indicate that they were demonic, but that they brought distress, br an abnormal condition to the person affected.
In harmony with the contrast between rā'â and ṭôb "good," God acts with painful punishment against the rā'â kind of people (over seventy times; particularly prominent in Jeremiah). He also acts with mercy toward those who will respond to his exhortations (Eccl 11:10; Jer ten times; Jon 3:8), but man must confess (I Sam 12:19; Jer 17:17). On his part, God acts to save man from rā'â (Ex 32:14; I Sam 10:19; 25:39) as he promised (I Kgs 21:29; Prov 1:33; Isa 57:1; Jer 23:17; 36:3; Ezk 34:25). And there was advice to the believers on how to keep themselves free from rā'â (Ex 23:2; I Sam 12:20; Prov 3:29; 22:3; 24:1; 27:12).
rōa'. Badness, evil. The masculine noun rōa' occurs nineteen times in the ot: eleven of these are in Jeremiah. It refers to the poor quality of the cows in Pharaoh's dream (Gen 41:19), and of the figs unfit for food (Jer 24:2–3, 8; 29:17). The noun denotes the sadness of one's heart (Neh 2:2) or face (Eccl 7:3). Once it points to negative attitudes (I Sam 17:28). Mostly the word denotes an immoral quality of man's activity (eleven times).
Bibliography: Buchanan, George Wesley, "The Old Testament Meaning of the knowledge of Good and Evil," JBL 75:114–20. Clark, W. Malcolm, "A Legal Background to the Yahwist's Use of 'Good and Evil' in Genesis 2–3," JBL 88:266–78. Eichrodt, Walter, Theology of the Old Testament, II, Westminster, 1967, pp. 380–495. Gelin, Albert, Sin in the Bible, Desclee, 1964. For ra' and synonymous terms referring to sin see Girdlestone, R.B., SOT pp. 76–85. Porubcan, Stefan, Sin in the Old Testament, Rome: Herder, 1963. Quell, G., Sin, London: Adam and Charles Black, 1951. Richardson, Alan, A Theological Word Book of the Bible, London: SCM, 1957. Smith, C. R., The Bible Doctrine of Sin, London: Epworth, 1953. THAT, II, pp. 794–802.
....Father 'made' a tool....that is opposite of His nature. And He does take responsibility for it. Even His whole creation He is responsible for.
The thing we need to realize, that in making man in 'our' image is this. In God's beginning He was all alone,for nothing comes into existence without Him.
God says 'it IS NOT GOOD" for man to be alone.....for our Father was very unhappy in His aloneness[His nature is love..and inabilty to express
that love is NOT GOOD]
THE KINGS DREAM
when our Father was all there was,and nothing else existed...He used to go about to and fro in a great void.This was a time of great darkness for Him.
during this time He dreamed a dream....of making a creation of Himself,both seen and unseen....a family...which He could love and receive love in
return from. Forming us in His image,as His children,He also wanted us to have an expierence of 'what is not good' a vanity/empty/suffering contrast
expierence
Quote from: sheila on October 22, 2011, 08:12:11 PM
THE KINGS DREAM
when our Father was all there was,and nothing else existed...He used to go about to and fro in a great void.This was a time of great darkness for Him.
during this time He dreamed a dream....of making a creation of Himself,both seen and unseen....a family...which He could love and receive love in
return from. Forming us in His image,as His children,He also wanted us to have an expierence of 'what is not good' a vanity/empty/suffering contrast
expierence
Where exactly is this quote from, sheila?
http://yhwh.com/Garden/garden5.htm
Interesting idea here. BAsically before the "fall" everything was good, so what does not exist is evil since evil is the opposite of good.
Quote from: redhotmagma on October 22, 2011, 09:03:49 PM
http://yhwh.com/Garden/garden5.htm
Interesting idea here. BAsically before the "fall" everything was good, so what does not exist is evil since evil is the opposite of good.
I disagree for various reasons:
- Snakes that try to decieve either literal, spiritual or .... are not good.
- People that give in to those things are not good. (Jesus resisted. Eve didn't)
- Night and day.
Night and day has some hidden meaning according to Jewish scholars.
Night = dark = chaos = sin/evil
Day = light = order = holiness
A Jewish day starts with night (~18:00 - ~6:00) and ends with day (~6:00 - ~18:00)
That's seen as a huge pattern. A summary of the whole Bible.
God's plan is to change darkness into light.
Maybe the above view isn't in total disagreement with the article you posted.
QuoteExistence = goodness
Nonexistence = evil
Existence = goodness = light
Nonexistence = evil = absense of light (darkness)
:2c:
take my head if you must,Beloved, it is in Enoch the prophets writing
Quote from: sheila on October 22, 2011, 11:21:24 PM
take my head if you must,Beloved, it is in Enoch the prophets writing
:icon_king:
It seems difficult to regain once Enoch gets a hold of it.
The last thing anyone wants is someone elses head, I hope :laughing7: I have enough trouble with the head I already have :grin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 22, 2011, 04:18:23 PM
Read this and found it quite interesting and humorus for all who just dont or wont get it(what ever "it" maybe when and where ever "it" comes up)...
"God invented sin and God takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL the wickedness and unfairness in life. He sent His Son to FORGIVE all that has transpired saying to ALL--
not just the "crucifiers" --"Father forgive them (all the world) for they know not what they do".
Object to God created sin?? Read Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create EVIL: I, the Lord, do all these things."
And GUESS WHAT? In the NKJV they changed the word "evil" to "calamity" and in the NIV they changed it to "disaster"!
SOOO, I looked up Genesis 2:17 in each version EXPECTING them to read "the tree of the knowledge of good and disaster/calamity..." Ha!
Guess what? It fit their theology so they left it "the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"! Wasn't THAT generous of them??" Quote from Duane
The devil invented sin, as the devil sinneth from the begining. But God invented evil.
Pro 4:7 The first thing is wisdom--get wisdom, And with all thy getting get understanding.
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2011, 06:54:17 PM
Pro 4:7 The first thing is wisdom--get wisdom, And with all thy getting get understanding.
Does this mean wisdom and understanding are seperate attributes?
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2011, 01:13:12 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2011, 06:54:17 PM
Pro 4:7 The first thing is wisdom--get wisdom, And with all thy getting get understanding.
Does this mean wisdom and understanding are seperate attributes?
Christ is Wisdom= The wisdom ABOVE~ The Tree of Life being the POWER and Wisdom Of God~ Understanding comes through the EYE, Knowledge by the apple~~~David , was the APPle[ Knowledge] of HIS EYE[ Understanding= who ATE from the Tree of Life~
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2011, 01:13:12 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2011, 06:54:17 PM
Pro 4:7 The first thing is wisdom--get wisdom, And with all thy getting get understanding.
Does this mean wisdom and understanding are seperate attributes?
Wisdom is a higher/deeper level of understanding things. But people who don't understand things aren't wise.
It's a bit like chicken and egg problem. Which came first?
Thanks.
wings the chicken came first.
Here's why
The egg must be laid by a hen and then that hen must keep the egg warm in order for the embryo temperature to remain between 45F and 65F.
If the hen leaves the nest before the process is complete the embryo will end.
If the egg came before the chicken whether by evolution or by God, then the egg will not have a hen to keep the temperature.
Also in Genesis God created the animals first, no mention of eggs.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 25, 2011, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2011, 01:13:12 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 24, 2011, 06:54:17 PM
Pro 4:7 The first thing is wisdom--get wisdom, And with all thy getting get understanding.
Does this mean wisdom and understanding are seperate attributes?
Wisdom is a higher/deeper level of understanding things. But people who don't understand things aren't wise.
It's a bit like chicken and egg problem. Which came first?
Not Many wise men are called, The wisdom of those BENEATH~ could these WISEMEN be these, Paul was also one of thse Wisemen ,the One of a Few called~
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
The wise were after the Former Wisdom in the Letter[ Condemnation], whom the Lord detroys~No SUCH Wiseman From BENEATH shall Enter the KINGDOM OF GOD, For The Wisdom Born From ABOVE is Spirit and Life Given unto ALL, each man in HIS own Order
Shalom~
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; lest YOU become YOUR OWN IDOL.
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
The egg must be laid by a hen and then that hen must keep the egg warm in order for the embryo temperature to remain between 45F and 65F.
45F? Penguin eggs :winkgrin:
Googled a bit...
100F is the ideal hatching temp. (http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/166/care-and-incubation-of-hatching-eggs)
45-65F is the ideal temp when the hen lays the eggs (in a 2 week time span) (http://www.i4at.org/lib2/chickens.htm)
Time for KFC (http://forum.mmopurge.com/forum/images/smilies/Lil___Chicken_Smiley_by_Wyandotte.gif)
Has anyone ever thought how ignorant a question like "which came first," is, and why any true believer would even bother to study it? I think not. :sigh:
Proverbs 6:34
For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
Proverbs 6:34
For jealousy is the rage of a man: therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
For jealousy is a husband's fury; Therefore he will not spare in the day of vengeance.
The Lords Vegeance is HIS Anger and Jealously~ HE is the TRUE HUSBAND whos Wife[ SOUL, BRIDE to be} the WHORE who has run off SLEEPING WITH DEATH~Selah Selah~
Shalom~
Ill stick with Duane and his original thought cause nothing has changed.
"God invented sin and God takes FULL RESPONSIBILITY for ALL the wickedness and unfairness in life. He sent His Son to FORGIVE all that has transpired saying to ALL--
not just the "crucifiers" --"Father forgive them (all the world) for they know not what they do".
Object to God created sin?? Read Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness: I make peace and create EVIL: I, the Lord, do all these things."
And GUESS WHAT? In the NKJV they changed the word "evil" to "calamity" and in the NIV they changed it to "disaster"!
SOOO, I looked up Genesis 2:17 in each version EXPECTING them to read "the tree of the knowledge of good and disaster/calamity..." Ha!
Guess what? It fit their theology so they left it "the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL"! Wasn't THAT generous of them??" Quote from Duane
sin means to miss the mark
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Fitting we talked about 2 different attributes earlier.
Sin and evil must be seperate attributes.
2 Chronicles 7:22
And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.
Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2011, 02:54:20 AM
sin means to miss the mark
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Fitting we talked about 2 different attributes earlier.
Sin and evil must be seperate attributes.
2 Chronicles 7:22
And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.
please note"""""""""""the SEED"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
ONE IS THE shadow the other the reality# Selah~
Quote from: Taffy on October 26, 2011, 03:01:10 AM
Quote from: thinktank on October 26, 2011, 02:54:20 AM
sin means to miss the mark
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Fitting we talked about 2 different attributes earlier.
Sin and evil must be seperate attributes.
2 Chronicles 7:22
And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.
please note"""""""""""the SEED"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
ONE IS THE shadow the other the reality# Selah~
Yeah I am not saying that those who are born again through christ are perfect, but as you said the seed is perfect, translated as, Christ in me is perfect(seed) but the flesh is weak(carnal/old man).
But the point I am making is that seed who is Christ is perfect and cannot sin.
But the point I am making is that seed who is Christ is perfect and cannot sin.
if we are ONE with HIM then how do we sin# sin is sepration from the identity we are~ to continue in SIN is to continue in seperation BELIVEING we are MADE JUST by and THROUGH our own WORKS= mISSING THE mARK AS WAS cAIN?
Quote from: Taffy on October 26, 2011, 03:25:15 AM
But the point I am making is that seed who is Christ is perfect and cannot sin.
if we are ONE with HIM then how do we sin# sin is sepration from the identity we are~ to continue in SIN is to continue in seperation BELIVEING we are MADE JUST by and THROUGH our own WORKS= mISSING THE mARK AS WAS cAIN?
John continues his preaching by saying that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father who washes us clean in His blood.
The Christ nature within us struggles with our carnal mind/old man, even the apostle Paul which is sad but he had struggles with sin, such is the power of it.
But God be praised Christ giveth us the victory
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 05:59:56 AM
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
I say: Read the next verse :-)
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 25, 2011, 08:48:31 PM
Has anyone ever thought how ignorant a question like "which came first," is, and why any true believer would even bother to study it? I think not. :sigh:
Just because you don't understand what wisdom is?
Ah, the wizard speaks. sorry non response.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 05:59:56 AM
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
irrespective how sin INCREASES GRACE WILL ABOUND more
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2011, 08:18:30 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 05:59:56 AM
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
I say: Read the next verse :-)
You took the bait!
But don't stop there, please read the entire chapter.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.The above verse speaks of the brethren, everyone else is just reading Scripture and still reaping the wages of sin — which is death.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 06:09:10 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2011, 08:18:30 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 05:59:56 AM
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
I say: Read the next verse :-)
You took the bait!
But don't stop there, please read the entire chapter.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
The above verse speaks of the brethren, everyone else is just reading Scripture and still reaping the wages of sin — which is death.
wrong thread :laughing7:
...and yet once again, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to and laughing about.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2011, 01:05:03 AM
...and yet once again, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to and laughing about.
You were talking about the scriptures giving death. You might not be aware but on another thread we are talking about that hotly debated, interesting subject.
Quote from: thinktank on October 27, 2011, 01:31:54 AM
You were talking about the scriptures giving death. You might not be aware but on another thread we are talking about that hotly debated, interesting subject.
I'm unaware of any Scripture of God that gives death.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 06:09:10 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2011, 08:18:30 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2011, 05:59:56 AM
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
I say: Read the next verse :-)
You took the bait!
But don't stop there, please read the entire chapter.
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
The above verse speaks of the brethren, everyone else is just reading Scripture and still reaping the wages of sin — which is death.
What do you mean by the last sentence then?
Death is Good Selah~Ecc 7:1 ¶ A good name [is] better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth. :icon_flower:
Sin brings death.
Not the Scriptures.