eve the serpent

[WhiteWings]

I wonder how they even figure out the balancing act?

Let's see, what good deed do I have to do for destroying the lives of a million people to make myself rich...

Nothing undo's a murder. But good deeds are always of value. I think they don't believe that anyone, or at least very few, die without a negative balance that needed to be purged away.

[Molly]

Not unlike Christianity that teaches Jesus paved over all unspeakably bad acts.

Yes,   But, it's one thing for Jesus to do it, and another for a man to think he can do it for himself.

The whole point of Christianity is that man cannot do it for himself.   The debt is too great.

True. But both religions think that God will forgive all sins. Either by following 613 rules or 1 bow before Jesus rule.

What is the Jewish view about the Messiah and their sin? Is the Messiah just a great teacher and warrior that destrys their enemies? Or does the Messiah also has the ability to wipe out their sins?

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.



Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the mashiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the mashiach will come:

if Israel repented a single day;
if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
in a generation that loses hope;
in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:

Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

This is who they say the Messiah is and what he will do, but it seems to me it requires them to ignore many parts of their own Bible, and scripture like Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.

I doubt that any of them ever look at Isa 53, including the rabbi's.

Yet, they also have this promise from God--


31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

--Jer 31


This is talking about the northern kingdom [house of Israel] and the southern kingdom [house of Judah] and how God will bring them together and make a new covenant with them [two sticks in one hand].   I wonder who they think the northern kingdom is today [house of Israel] since that group was taken into captivity and lost to history [the northern ten tribes].

[Molly]

Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.

The Seven Laws of Noah
According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm



This implies that any Gentile who doesn't follow these laws does not have a place in the world to come.  So what happens to them? Likewise, what about those Gentiles that are not righteous?  What happens to them?

It would have to be annihilation or being held in some place away from the world to come.

I didn't see anything about Gentiles going to a place where they can pay for their sins or be purified.

[Molly]

From ww's link:



A discussion of the classic rabbinic view of the afterlife, including
   these topics and more, can be found in an essay by Rabbi Zalman
   Schacter Shalomi called "Life in the hereafter: A tour of what's to
   come", found at [5]http://www.elevated.fsnet.co.uk/index-page13.html.
   
   Gehenna is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. It is sometimes
   translated as "hell", but Jews must take note that the Christian
   version of hell is different from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Some
   Christians believe that hell is an abode of eternal torment where
   sinners go, and is also for anyone who does not accept Jesus as their
   messiah and G-d. Other Christians believe Hell is a place of
   separation from G-d (which, for Christians, is torture enough), from
   which believers are eventually saved by Jesus. Roman Catholics believe
   that Hell is a place of eternal suffering--physical, mental and
   spiritual suffering. In the Roman Catholic view of Hell, the physical
   pain is constant and severe; but the worst torture of Hell is the
   knowledge that they will never see G-d and that they will remain in
   Hell for eternity. For Roman Catholics, Hell is permanent and eternal.
   For Roman Catholics, the soul that has deliberately and knowingly
   disobeyed G-d's commandments in life and that remains in a state of
   mortal sin upon death has through it's own free will damned itself to
   Hell for all eternity. Roman Catholics also have the notion of
   Purgatory, which is for souls that are truly repentant, but not in the
   state of grace upon death. Purgatory is similar to Hell in that there
   is physical suffering, the Roman Catholic belief is that the soul will
   return to G-d when it is purged of its sins. Purgatory can last a day
   or thousands of years depending on the amount of purging the
   individual soul requires.
   
   However, for Jews, gehenna--while certainly a terribly unpleasant
   place--is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that
   people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be
   there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul
   is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where
   all imperfections are purged. [In this sense, it is somewhat similar
   to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a
   definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem;
   i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other
   words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden;
   i.e. heaven) -- it's the perspective of the individual that makes it
   one or the other.
   
   In some descriptions of the afterlife, we find that beyond Gan Eden
   there is a little known realm called the otzar, the divine treasury of
   souls; this is also called the tzror ha-hayyim, the bundle of life.
   This otzar is a transcendent realm of human souls, in the highest
   spheres of creation. Before souls are born they are said to come from
   this treasury, and they return they at some point after death.
   
   Souls are said to originate in a realm called the 'guf' (Avodah Zarah
   5a, Nedarim 13b, Yevamot 62a), from which they descend to the earthly
   real to animate human bodies. After death, these souls return to the
   otzar, or tzror ha-hayyim. (Shabbat 152a; Pesikta Rabbati 2:3)
   
   According to the Kabbalah [Jewish mysticism] every human has at least
   one element in their soul; with the proper study a person can
   eventually develop two higher levels of the soul. A common way of
   explaining the three parts of the soul is as follows:
    1. Nefesh - the lower part, or animal part, of the soul. Is linked to
       instincts and bodily cravings.
    2. Ruach - the middle soul, the spirit. It contains the moral virtues
       and the ability to distinguish between good and evil.
    3. Neshamah - the higher soul, or super-soul. This separates man from
       all other lifeforms. It is related to the intellect, and allows
       man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This part of the soul
       is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike at birth. It allows one
       to have some awareness of the existence and presence of G-d.
       The "Raaya Meheimna," a later addition to the Zohar, posits that
       there are in fact two more parts of the human soul, the chayyah
       and yehidah. These parts were considered to represent the
       sublimest levels of intuitive cognition, and were only within the
       grasp of very few individuals.
    4. Chayyah - The part of the soul that allows one to have an
       awareness of the divine life force itself.
    5. Yehidad - the highest plane of the soul, in which one can achieve
       as full a union with G-d as is possible.
       
   According to the Zohar, after death each aspect of the soul undergoes
   a different experience on the afterlife journey. The lower levels of
   the soul are purified and purged of physical and emotional
   attachments, while the higher levels experience transcendental bliss.
   The nefesh temporarily remains with the body in the grave, undergoing
   the Hibbut Ha-Kever, the suffering of the grave. Simultaneously, the
   Ruach experiences Gehenna for 12 months. "Gehenna is conceived of as a
   purification process in which the psychic remnants from the previous
   life are purged and transformed. This purgation process lasts only
   twelve months and is tormentingly painful in direct proportion to each
   individual's lived life experience. [Simcha Paull-Rapahel ] After
   leaving Gehenna, the ruah then permanently enters the Lower Gan Eden.
   
   After death the Neshama, since it not subject to being tainted by sin,
   goes to Gan Eden Elyon, the Upper Gan Eden, where it experiences
   divine reward and bliss. The hayyah and yehidah also return to Upper
   Gan Eden immediately after death, and become as one with G-d as is
   possible. "Those who have awakened these dimensions of their being are
   able to perceive the infinite grandeur of the divine realms, to enter
   the everflowing celestial stream - described by the Zoha as the
   "bundle of life". [Paull-Rapahel]
   
   Given all this, what happens to the soul of the nonbeliever? The most
   common belief in contemporary traditional Jewish communities is that
   all souls go to the after-life. Nearly all, barring a handful or two
   in all of human history, eventually end up in Gan Eden (roughly:
   heaven), even non-believers. Maimonides (a medieval Jewish thinker)
   opined that non-believers cease to exist upon death. His reasoning was
   that the ability to exist eternally is G-d's, and is only acquired by
   the soul to the extent that the soul knows of, and therefore shares
   some of the form of, G-d. This opinion was more popular in the midevil
   period, but no longer captures much attention, since around the early
   19th century. At that time, the Chassidic and Mussar movements
   influenced Orthodox thought. The Aristotilian influence of the
   medieval thinkers like Maimonides faded in favor of other, equally
   old, approaches to the problem. All of these notions have roots in the
   Talmud (our earliest written rabbinic texts) and earlier. It is just a
   matter of which approach to G-d from within that tradition people
   follow. [Note: While you may have heard of Chassidim, there are few if
   any Mussarists left post-WWII. It was an Orthodox movement based on
   personality improvement and stressed the inter-personal commandments.]
   
   As for the question of Purgatory. Again, there is no one Jewish
   position on the subject, even if we limit ourselves to the traditional
   Orthodox position. The Talmud refers to the deceased going to a Word
   of Truth or going to the heavens--without distinction. It is generally
   assumed these are homonyms, but these quotes still speak of a single
   afterlife. Others speak of the Garden of Eden and Gehenna. Neither
   could be meant literally, as Adam was in the literal Garden before
   death, and the valley of Hinnom (Gei Hinnom, in Hebrew) is a valley in
   current Jerusalem (where the Canaanite locals practiced human
   sacrifice by passing their children through the fires for Molech).
   Some therefore understand this to mean that Eden vs Gehenna is not a
   difference in "location" but rather in how one experiences the
   afterlife. Someone who spent life developing an appreciation for G-d
   and Truth will find it as pleasant (Heb: eden) as the garden, those
   who developed interest in other pursuits will find the experience
   hellish. A number of sources, such as R' Chaim of Vilozhin (founder of
   the current Yeshiva movement, late 18th early 19th cent) and R' Israel
   of Salant (founder of the Mussar movement, late 18th cent), describe
   the fires of gehenna as those of shame. Facing the truth of what one
   could have been and seeing what one was. The number of people subject
   to a permanent "stay" in gehenna is very small. The Talmud (Tr
   Sanhedrin, 11th ch) names 4 people up to their day who qualified.
   Otherwise, the experience itself is atoning, creating a person who is
   capable of enjoying the presence of G-d. For these few people, they so
   identified themselves with sin that to abandon sin would be to lose
   their essence.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

[Molly]

Sounds to me like they just make up the rules as they go along, ww.  One falls out of favor, another falls out of favor, and so on.

I don't see much Biblical support summoned for their positions.

I don't know where they get their 12 months atonement or that Gentiles have to follow laws given to Noah.

Notice Gentiles includes all Christians.  We don't even get to follow the ten commandments.

[WhiteWings]

I never wrote that they are right or wrong. I just said they have UR like believes.

Nearly all, barring a handful or two in all of human history, eventually end up in Gan Eden (roughly: heaven), even non-believers.

However, for Jews, gehenna--while certainly a terribly unpleasant  place--is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that  people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be  there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul  is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where  all imperfections are purged.

So, everybody enters heaven. It's about correction instead of demons running around with pith forks. Very limited time even compared to purgatory.

Sounds to me like they just make up the rules as they go along, ww

I think the Jews can righfully say the same of Christians with their zillion denominations.

[WhiteWings]

I don't see much Biblical support summoned for their positions.

Is that their mistake or because your OT knowledge isn't deep enough? Same can be asked about RCC's purgatory. Where did it originate from?
I think that the Jews received more knowledge than is written in the OT. Two examples of that. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they had to leave Gan Eden but nowhere we see "I your Lord commands:....." that forbids eating from the tree.
Same thing when Cain kills Abel. No sins without law. Killing Abel was wrong meaning their was a law against it. A law we were not told of.

The Jewish "hell" is in the valley of Hinnom. Jesus refereed to that valley too. Again it seems Jews had certain knowledge that Hinnom wasn't just a literal valley like millions of others on earth.
:2c:

[Molly]

I never wrote that they are right or wrong. I just said they have UR like believes.

Some do, at least for Jews, although it's not always clear what happens to the Gentiles.

Some don't.

"Maimonides (a medieval Jewish thinker)
opined that non-believers cease to exist upon death"

I think the Jews can righfully say the same of Christians with their zillion denominations.

How so?  All Christian denominations are biblically based.  What differs is the translations and understanding of the Bible.

I think that the Jews received more knowledge than is written in the OT. Two examples of that. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they had to leave Gan Eden but nowhere we see "I your Lord commands:....." that forbids eating from the tree.

Gen 2:16  And the LORDH3068 GodH430 commandedH6680 H5921 the manH120

command=appoint, enjoin, forbid, give a charge, give a command


2:17  But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it:

[WhiteWings]

I never wrote that they are right or wrong. I just said they have UR like believes.

Some do, at least for Jews, although it's not always clear what happens to the Gentiles.

The article uses words as "souls" and "all humanity".
That doesn't seem to exclude Gentiles.

Some don't.

"Maimonides (a medieval Jewish thinker)
opined that non-believers cease to exist upon death"

True, but the article also states is was short lived minority view.

I think the Jews can righfully say the same of Christians with their zillion denominations.

How so?  All Christian denominations are biblically based.  What differs is the translations and understanding of the Bible.

Jews don't have Biblical based views?
About Bible translations. What came first? Wrong translation or doctrine?

I think that the Jews received more knowledge than is written in the OT. Two examples of that. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they had to leave Gan Eden but nowhere we see "I your Lord commands:....." that forbids eating from the tree.

Gen 2:16  And the LORDH3068 GodH430 commandedH6680 H5921 the manH120

command=appoint, enjoin, forbid, give a charge, give a command


2:17  But of the treeH4480 H6086 of the knowledgeH1847 of goodH2896 and evil,H7451 thou shalt notH3808 eatH398 ofH4480 it:

Whoops  :mblush:

How about murder? Keeping Sabbath?

[Molly]

The article uses words as "souls" and "all humanity".
That doesn't seem to exclude Gentiles.

It wasn't clear enough to me that I would bet my soul on it.

True, but the article also states is was short lived minority view.

The article used it as an example of differing views going back to ancient times.

Jews don't have Biblical based views?
About Bible translations. What came first? Wrong translation or doctrine?

Jews have a lot of extra Biblical views. Jesus accused them of this--traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect.

Translation error first or doctrine first?  You mean is it a conspiracy?  I don't know enough to say, but I think most Christians do their best to keep their views Biblically based, and they are stuck with the translations we have.

[WhiteWings]

Jews have a lot of extra Biblical views.

Luckily Christianity has no pagan influence at all.

Translation error first or doctrine first?  You mean is it a conspiracy?

Politics.

[Molly]

Jews have a lot of extra Biblical views.

Luckily Christianity has no pagan influence at all.

Translation error first or doctrine first?  You mean is it a conspiracy?

Politics.

Is this the Christmas debate again?  :rollingeyes:

Mark 16:15 "He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."


Peace on Earth and Mercy Mild is taken from the Christmas Carol, 'Hark The Herald Angels Sing. Written by the brother of John Wesley, Charles in 1739. It is normally set to Felix Mendelssohn's tune 'The Festival Dance' written 1840.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPwNPAV6tA


Hark the herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!
Peace on earth and mercy mild
God and sinners reconciled"
Joyful, all ye nations rise
Join the triumph of the skies
With the angelic host proclaim:
"Christ is born in Bethlehem"
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"


Christ by highest heav'n adored
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold Him come
Offspring of a Virgin's womb
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Hail the heav'n-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Son of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings
Ris'n with healing in His wings
Mild He lays His glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

[redhotmagma]

I would say that most of christianity is pseudo-biblical.  Communion as a little cracker and cup of grape juice, church services, pastor/priest layperson divide.  Many of the doctrines are based of the traditions of men.

For me christianity looks pretty similar to pharisee judaism.

[Molly]

I would say that most of christianity is pseudo-biblical.  Communion as a little cracker and cup of grape juice, church services, pastor/priest layperson divide.  Many of the doctrines are based of the traditions of men.

For me christianity looks pretty similar to pharisee judaism.

What would you suggest they do instead of bread and grape juice for communion?

In Protestant churches the minister is responsible to the deacons in what he preaches about.

[WhiteWings]

Jews have a lot of extra Biblical views.

Luckily Christianity has no pagan influence at all.

Translation error first or doctrine first?  You mean is it a conspiracy?

Politics.

Is this the Christmas debate again?  :rollingeyes:

It's part of the package deal  :winkgrin:
The founding of RCC had political motives. It caused a very rapid growth (Constantine just declared it a state religion). But it also caused adding lots of pagan stuff. Hell being the most prominent.

[redhotmagma]

I would say that most of christianity is pseudo-biblical.  Communion as a little cracker and cup of grape juice, church services, pastor/priest layperson divide.  Many of the doctrines are based of the traditions of men.

For me christianity looks pretty similar to pharisee judaism.

What would you suggest they do instead of bread and grape juice for communion?

In Protestant churches the minister is responsible to the deacons in what he preaches about.

Communion is not meant to be a ritual.  It is sharing in the body of christ, if any food is involved its an actual meal.  Not some specified time where the clergy passes out the elements, but sharing your life with your brethren.  My same issue is with the clergy.  There is no such thing as clergy or titles in the NC.  Christ is our high priest, we are all priests.  Christ is the head of the body, not any man.  Each one brings a word, a prophecy a song.  Not one guy brings a word, and a professional worship team brings a song, week after week, while the masses sit in rows waiting to be fed by the people on stage.

Most churches teach hell, which needs no explaining, also many other erroneous doctrines, whatever fits the flavor of the denomination.  The protestant church is supposedly based on the NC church, but I have yet to find anything in the Bible that shows me anything like what I've attended.  Church membership, there's a problem right there, as if you can take classes, or sign a document to be part of the church, well at least not to be part of the ecclesia.  Even calling the building or the place a church is an abomination that deceives people into believing God is far from them.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup: Couldn't agree more....

[lomarah]

I would say that most of christianity is pseudo-biblical.  Communion as a little cracker and cup of grape juice, church services, pastor/priest layperson divide.  Many of the doctrines are based of the traditions of men.

For me christianity looks pretty similar to pharisee judaism.

What would you suggest they do instead of bread and grape juice for communion?

In Protestant churches the minister is responsible to the deacons in what he preaches about.

Communion is not meant to be a ritual.  It is sharing in the body of christ, if any food is involved its an actual meal.  Not some specified time where the clergy passes out the elements, but sharing your life with your brethren.  My same issue is with the clergy.  There is no such thing as clergy or titles in the NC.  Christ is our high priest, we are all priests.  Christ is the head of the body, not any man.  Each one brings a word, a prophecy a song.  Not one guy brings a word, and a professional worship team brings a song, week after week, while the masses sit in rows waiting to be fed by the people on stage.

Most churches teach hell, which needs no explaining, also many other erroneous doctrines, whatever fits the flavor of the denomination.  The protestant church is supposedly based on the NC church, but I have yet to find anything in the Bible that shows me anything like what I've attended.  Church membership, there's a problem right there, as if you can take classes, or sign a document to be part of the church, well at least not to be part of the ecclesia.  Even calling the building or the place a church is an abomination that deceives people into believing God is far from them.

Yes amen!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just wanted to add to that, that the references that begin, "to the church at _____", was not a literal building on that site, nor was it just the current roster of believers, but the WHOLE of that city is His habitation, just not all of them know it yet.

Our initial salvation experience is not so much an "inviting Him in" as if He were not there (although He honors the cry where we are at or what we have been taught), but is the heart's turning TO Him, with the sudden awareness of His "location" as being within. We literally wake up to righteousness, as Christ IS the righteousness of God. Prior to this, the darkness in us, comprehended it not. He is the breath that we take; without the Spirit we die. There is no place where He is NOT, NOTHING can separate us from the love of God, and His Spirit IS love.

In my walk, since receiving this revelation, I've had more results with talking to unbelievers about "Him being in them, so where can they run to?", than to try to tell them to ask Him in. There is something that registers in them when this is voiced, their spirit gives witness and brings repentance and right standing as their heart turns to Him. All have to have this experience; hearts must be pierced.  To be pierced in custom, was what they did to slaves; this is why Paul said he was a bond slave of His love. My  :2c:

[jabcat]

I would say that most of christianity is pseudo-biblical.  Communion as a little cracker and cup of grape juice, church services, pastor/priest layperson divide.  Many of the doctrines are based of the traditions of men.

For me christianity looks pretty similar to pharisee judaism.

What would you suggest they do instead of bread and grape juice for communion?

In Protestant churches the minister is responsible to the deacons in what he preaches about.

Communion is not meant to be a ritual.  It is sharing in the body of christ, if any food is involved its an actual meal.  Not some specified time where the clergy passes out the elements, but sharing your life with your brethren.  My same issue is with the clergy.  There is no such thing as clergy or titles in the NC.  Christ is our high priest, we are all priests.  Christ is the head of the body, not any man.  Each one brings a word, a prophecy a song.  Not one guy brings a word, and a professional worship team brings a song, week after week, while the masses sit in rows waiting to be fed by the people on stage.

Most churches teach hell, which needs no explaining, also many other erroneous doctrines, whatever fits the flavor of the denomination.  The protestant church is supposedly based on the NC church, but I have yet to find anything in the Bible that shows me anything like what I've attended.  Church membership, there's a problem right there, as if you can take classes, or sign a document to be part of the church, well at least not to be part of the ecclesia.  Even calling the building or the place a church is an abomination that deceives people into believing God is far from them.

Enjoyed that.  Agree.   :thumbsup: