Hi folks,
Can you help me out with this piece please? It's by Alexander Thomson - someone who is well known for his UR stance. Yet this piece has me thinking about the validity of the 'divine purification' aspect. He seems to be making the point that the Devil won't be purified, but tormented until it submits. Forgive me if I am being dense.
Quote"Divine" Fire?
From the Differentiator magazine:
Vol. 15 New Series April, 1953 No. 2
REVELATION 20:10 Can it be true that the Mischief-maker or Devil is to finish up by being cast into a " Lake of divine fire"? Some have made a great deal of mischief here through lack of a little knowledge of the Greek language.. Extraordinary theories' have been built up the like of which have never been heard of before. Extravagant and fanciful ideas have been elaborated by some who have little real reverence for the sacred text. But we must ever be on our guard against that dangerous excrescence of human selfishness—wishful thinking. The wish becomes father to the thought; the thought develops into a theory; the theory snatches at isolated terms found in the Scriptures or violates the Greek language.
The above verse states plainly that the Mischief-maker who is deceiving them (the Nations) was" cast into the lake of the fire and sulphur, just where (hopou) the wild-beast and i:he false~prophet are also. And they will be tormented for i:he eons of the eons."
Sulphur in Greek is theion. There is also another and distinct Greek word theion, which is the neuter form of the adjective meaning "divine," from Theos, God. Of course it was very easy to assume that the two words had a common origin. Yet we shall produce evidence from the Greek, and from the Greek Scriptures, that the word for sulphur is related to the Greek verb thuO, meaning SACRIFICE. . It was a great misfortune that the Concordance of the Concordant Version shewed both words as having a common derivation (page 259).
The word sulphur (or brimstone, "burn-stone"), found seven times in the N.T., is always a noun, never an adjective. And it is always found joined to another noun, either "fire" or "smoke." How would it sound did we read at Luke 17:29, "fire and divine rains from heaven"? Here the fire and the sulphur were undoubtedly literal. Nor could we render at Rev. 9:17, "out of their mouths are issuing fire and smoke and divine." To-day, out of the mouths of about nine-tenths of the adults in Britain, there issues frequently smoke, but very little that is divine. How could these horses kill the third part of mankind by anything "divine"? Is it not clear that the fire and smoke and sulphur must be real? The worshipper of the wild-beast, who gets an emblem on his forehead, or on to his hand, will be tormented in fire and sulphur (Rev. 14:9, 10). The torment will be real torment; that is what the word means, not entertainment or purification. It is only right that they should undergo some torment. To-day it is the believers who feel things most deeply, and therefore suffer the most torment. Worldlings do not undergo the same spiritual trials and testings. It would be utterly wrong were the devotees of the wild-beast to encounter merely a beneficent "divine fire."
The clue to the problem is to be found in Rev. 9:17. The breastplates or cuirasses are of brimstone or sulphurous. The Greek word is theiOdeis. But it must be observed that the ancient Sinaitic M.S. has a different spelling, thuOdeis. This indicates that the root of the word is to be found along with words like thuO, sacrifice. Sometimes the same M.S. spells theion as thion. Such itacisms were very common in the old M.S.S. In Modern Greek it is said that the vowels U, I, UI, OI, EI and E (eta) are all pronounced the same, as ee. The tendency towards this assimilation seems to have existed in the first century, when the N.T. was penned.
For Dr. Pridgeon to claim that "to any Greek, or to any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a (lake of divine purification'" ("Is Hell Eternal?") is most misleading. Surely this would be to reduce august and solemn divine utterances to mere trivialities.
In his very valuable and careful little book, "Etyma Graeca" (1882) Wharton relates theion (sulphur) to thuO (sacrifice) through a supposed intermediate form theVesion. Theion is also found spelt theeion. Now where a double vowel is found in Greek thus, it means a letter had been elided. In Greek the digamma letter (V or W or perhaps GW) was universally lost very long ago, if it did not soften into U. Moreover, the Greek mouth did not favour the letter S between two vowels. Every language, including Hebrew, has lost some of its primitive sounds and letters.
At Gen. 19:24 the Greek O.T. reads "And the Lord rains on to Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire" (theion kai pur). Call it divine sulphur and fire if you like, but only destruction was wrought.
Alexander Thomson
http://alexanderthomson.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/divine-fire.html
QuoteIn the Christ All Shall Be Made Alive
From the Differentiator magazine:
Vol. 23 New Series June, 1961 No. 3
It is quite unthinkable that God will fail to restore the Arch-enemy Satan in due time. In his prison-house of isolation and desolation, of utter defeat and failure, he must at long last find himself, when all his former subjects and victims have abandoned him for their rightful Master, and when his sham Kingdom, in its utter overthrow and extinction, testifies to the complete triumph of the 'Only Potentate' and to HIS "Everlasting Kingdom." Assuredly this piercing sense of disappointment and destitution must awaken in him a great longing after the pristine happiness from which he wantonly fell, but which he can never, forget, and pave the way to genuine repentance? How would you, dear reader, feel if you had to undergo ages of ages of chastening and torment, both day and night?
QuoteWhy the "Lake" of Fire?
From the Differentiator magazine:
Vol. 22 New Series October, 1960 No. 5
What then about the Lake of Fire? Will it continue into what is called "eternity"? Certainly not, as Rev. 20:10 states clearly that Satan and the Wild Beast and the False Prophet will be tormented for the ages of the ages. As there is no account of the funeral of these three parties anywhere in the whole Bible, we must conclude that after their torment they obtain new life. "Behold, I am making everything new" says Rev. 21:5. This must include Satan and the others, who, in time, will be thirsting for the water of Life which is given freely (Rev. 22:17). The Lake of Fire must end up in Life, as all Death is to be abolished, not merely human death, or physical death.
http://alexanderthomson.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/why-lake-of-fire.html
yea that seems to be his view alright. The question I would ask is, "What is the difference. The torment is for the purpose of purification in that it will bring repentance."
Like Eaglesway, I don't see the point of differentiating between divine and sulfur. You could call the Lake of Fire divine on the basis that God created it, whether or not sulfur is a better word. :dontknow:
Personally, I don't see how he establishes the fire as literal based on his argument though.
He asks how could the fire destroy something if it's not real, based on Revelation 9:17, well that's the thing. What if the horses are metaphorical too, and what if the verse is meant to describe something not based in flesh?
What kind of destruction are we talking about? Some people are filled with material wealth, but are destroyed on the inside.
" Assuredly this piercing sense of disappointment and destitution must awaken in him a great longing after the pristine happiness from which he wantonly fell, ...." From the Differentiator magazine:
Vol. 23 New Series June, 1961 No. 3
Here is a great theologian who thinks the adversary "fell" from "pristine happiness." I find myself just wondering about the rest of his thinking.
Joh 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."
:2c:
:cloud9: I'm just going to throw this out there as it's something that I've personally experienced several times in deliverance mode, but demons sometimes manifest a smell of both sulfur and smoke. I've kinda found this to be curious as I can't quite "get" how they could get out once thrown in. Maybe from ignorant people "summoning" them in a variety of witchcraft ways? :eek: :dontknow:
..there's a scripture that says 'satan himself will succeed in causing fire to come down from heaven" I've detected the 'electrical wire'
type of burning manifestation,personally. also,they say meteorites manifest an ozone.....or unusual burnt type odour.so perhaps
it is a fallen angel/that satan caused to come down?[3rd of the angels with his tail[false prophesies] :dontknow:
:cloud9: Curious, isn't it? Could be. I've always wondered about the "why" of that.....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 04, 2015, 04:36:55 AM
:cloud9: I'm just going to throw this out there as it's something that I've personally experienced several times in deliverance mode, but demons sometimes manifest a smell of both sulfur and smoke. I've kinda found this to be curious as I can't quite "get" how they could get out once thrown in. Maybe from ignorant people "summoning" them in a variety of witchcraft ways? :eek: :dontknow:
In Matthew 12 Jesus says that unclean spirits abide in arid places until they find a well swept "house" to occupy. I think there's alot of mystery in scripture about them. Since I don't believe in hell, I no longer believe that they abide all together in a certain place. It's something I'll have to wait to see about.
:cloud9: @ Seth. I don't believe they all abide together in one place, either. My curiosity was over the fact that they emitted a smell that implied they had once been in THEIR place of judgment, and I was/am puzzled about how they could have gotten "out" afterwards. :Chinscratch:
Yeah, those arid places.....the rebellious live in a dry land, ie. flesh devoid of the Spirit of God is a dry land, too, amen? Blessings....
Yeah, I know, I was talking about my former understanding. It's one of those things I find to be very mysterious, including the nature of Satan.
:cloud9: Yeah, me too.....so many mysteries, so little time..... :laughing7:
Legion asked Jesus to cast him/them into the swine. Jesus did. The swine had enough sense to jump off a cliff into the sea.
Two things I see from this. Demons are not too particular about where they live. Some pigs have better sense than some humans.
:cloud9: Ain't it the truth.....
When I see the pure and divine prayers of many praying for the same thing and it creates a powerful connection with God
and noted how the fire along with incense and prayers , these 3 combined God received
incense has the smoke rising as a sweet smelling savor
The Seventh Seal Rev 8
...3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand. 5Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
this would destroy the power over the evil forces or what ever is holding one bound , in Rev 8 it is the last seal to be opened and Gods 7 trumpets to sound
in battle like the 7 trumpet sounding of Jericho and the walls come tumbling down , each one making a distinct warning and all have to do with FIRE in some sense of the meaning and with LIGHT and with heat and thought of melting the elements with fervent heat [2 Peter 3 ] and GOD being a consuming Fire
The Day of the Lord
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat,
and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,...
For me evil is destroyed in this manner
7Then the earth shook and quaked; And the foundations of the mountains were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry. 8Smoke went up out of His nostrils, And fire from His mouth devoured; Coals were kindled by it. 9He bowed the heavens also, and came down With thick darkness under His feet.10 He rode upon a cherub and flew; And He sped upon the wings of the wind.
Our God is a consuming fire. His presence destroys evil/darkness.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
He will lay bear the foundations.
12For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
I think contemporary westerners see the world in material ways and it affects our understanding. The ancients understood the world as a matter of consciousness, and wrote accordingly.
All the veils will be removed. The fire of His light and presence will remove them.
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
:dsunny:
QuoteOur God is a consuming fire. His presence destroys evil/darkness.
:HeartThrob:
All evil being ''consumed '' in the presence Lamb
Many times I have heard that UR only speaks of the sweet things from many nay sayers , I know some who come and left because they were NOT convinced :sigh:
I personally dont believe the UR message is to ''sugar coat '' anything , but the Focus is on Jesus Christ and the gospel , which means ''good news '' and knowing the reconciling in done in Gods holy work in the end though Jesus Christ and not of our selves As the Spirit & truth consume all darkness and ignorance as the LIGHT shines brighter and brighter .
Our confidence is in JESUS CHRIST in this age for me for
Knowingknowledge /Wisdom of the FATHER ..
as all carnal thoughts and images are destroyed
I thought of the truth in Christ saying , your house will be left to you desolate (of a place) deserted and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness
and how that would mean
without the PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT , for me , HOLY SPIRIT is the Father & Son and all those gathered in Christ all ready ]
an example would be like Saul having a troubling spirit in him , or Jesus saying the last state of a man whom 7 more spirits more wicked than himself would be troubling within him as almost a state of drunkenness and madness ... being the LACK OF HOLY SPIRIT which is sober peace and joy of the Lord and its fruits and healing
It sure does make clear cut a difference between the two states of being .... one above and one below ..
The Three Angels and Babylon's Fall
...9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."...
Cross References
Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens.
Job 21:20
Let their own eyes see their destruction; let them drink the cup of the wrath of the Almighty.
Psalm 75:8
In the hand of the LORD is a cup full of foaming wine mixed with spices; he pours it out, and all the wicked of the earth drink it down to its very dregs.
Isaiah 51:17
Awake, awake! Rise up, Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD the cup of his wrath, you who have drained to its dregs the goblet that makes people stagger.
Jeremiah 25:15
This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.
Jeremiah 25:27
"Then tell them, 'This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.'
Ezekiel 38:22
I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.
Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
Acts 10:22
The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say."
2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the
Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.Revelation 9:17
The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.
Revelation 16:19
The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
Revelation 18:6
Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done. Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
Revelation 19:15
Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Revelation 19:20
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."