So, apologies for this being the second L. Ray Smith prompted post this week, but I do think many on these forums would subscribe to a lot of his teaching.
I was fascinated by his insistence that the word translated as "created" in Gen. 1:27 ("bara") is the imperfective when it refers to being created in His image, unlike the perfective used twice in the same verse. I'm no Hebrew scholar so unfortunately I can't say how true this is.
The implications drawn from this are vast; that quite apart from the doctrine of the "imago dei" being within each human already, that creation is one huge process by which we steadily are conformed to the image of God.
However, researching the doctrine of imago dei I found that it is also mentioned in a few other places. In Corinthians, it is mentioned in relation to men and women; this is tricky, and can't convincingly be used to argue against Ray's point because if we are saying that Paul insists that man is "the image and glory of God" in the full sense, we must also conclude that women aren't, as they are "the glory of man".
But James 3:9 seems to refute his point more strongly: "With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God's likeness!" - the word is "gegonotas", it is definitely perfect, a complete action. Surely it is impossible in the light of James to insist that this hasn't happened yet?
Somewhat selfishly, I wish Ray was still alive so I could ask him what he thinks!
Shalom Farlsborough
He is correct in saying that the first use of the verb ברא is in, what is actually called the incomplete state, which is an action in progress. He is mistaken though, in thinking that this means that this action is something that has not been completed yet. One has to understand how the Semitic peoples thought when they wrote. When the incomplete is used, (and it is many, many times to indicate things that clearly are not still in process) it is the writers way of putting the reader right there with the action, as if they were personally witnessing it take place.
Aside from James, which does indeed speak of man having been made in God's likeness, all one needs to do is go back and reread the entire Bereshiyt account and you will see that this exact form of the verb, with the nikkud (the little dots and dashes indicating vowel sounds) is found in one other place, back in verse 21...
And Elohim is creating the great monsters....etc.
No one suggests that this is also something that is still being done, correct? In fact, in looking at the verbs forming the first part of those verses in Genesis, all the through the entire Scripture, they are also incomplete. Again, this is simply a Semitic way of drawing the reader into what is being read, connecting them to it as if they were there witnessing it all.
Also, the completed (what you call perfective) state found in the same verse with regard to man speaks of the certainty of it having been done.
Because the English culture does not write that way, it can, and has lead, to things being taken from the text that were never intended.
Ray is correct about the grammar, but not so about the conclusion he comes to regarding it.
When I read Paul's words, I see man (the male) as the image and glory of God, and I see women as the image of God as well, but the glory of man. I see her as just as fully the image of God as a man is, just expressing different aspects and facets of his image.
Ronen
Col_2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power
:2c:
It likely doesn't come as a surprise at all but not all scholars agree the correct translation is "created in the image". The alternative is "created as a representative".
Quote from: joeteekay on June 20, 2014, 05:15:08 AM
Col_2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power
:2c:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2014, 07:08:10 AM
It likely doesn't come as a surprise at all but not all scholars agree the correct translation is "created in the image". The alternative is "created as a representative".
I agree. צלם is related to the marriage root צל, which refers concretely to the shade made by a shadow of something. I translate it as being prepared in his shadow. Many beautiful and deep meanings from this I believe, not merely an statue type of image, such as an idol would be. We live and move and have our being in him, just as a shadow does with its source.
:dsunny:
Ronen
No doubt there will be as many opinions as people on what representative means.
For me it's about someone spreading God's word. Even ruling in God's name.
In his shadow reminds me of yet another view that it means outline.
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 20, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2014, 07:08:10 AM
It likely doesn't come as a surprise at all but not all scholars agree the correct translation is "created in the image". The alternative is "created as a representative".
I agree. צלם is related to the marriage root צל, which refers concretely to the shade made by a shadow of something. I translate it as being prepared in his shadow. Many beautiful and deep meanings from this I believe, not merely an statue type of image, such as an idol would be. We live and move and have our being in him, just as a shadow does with its source.
:dsunny:
Ronen
Just curious, you say, " I translate it as being prepared in his shadow." Isnt that saying something is being done, so it is not finished or complete?
:dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 20, 2014, 05:22:31 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 20, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2014, 07:08:10 AM
It likely doesn't come as a surprise at all but not all scholars agree the correct translation is "created in the image". The alternative is "created as a representative".
I agree. צלם is related to the marriage root צל, which refers concretely to the shade made by a shadow of something. I translate it as being prepared in his shadow. Many beautiful and deep meanings from this I believe, not merely an statue type of image, such as an idol would be. We live and move and have our being in him, just as a shadow does with its source.
:dsunny:
Ronen
Just curious, you say, " I translate it as being prepared in his shadow." Isnt that saying something is being done, so it is not finished or complete?
:dontknow:
I think this is the answer:
QuoteWhen the incomplete is used, (and it is many, many times to indicate things that clearly are not still in process) it is the writers way of putting the reader right there with the action, as if they were personally witnessing it take place.
So the you are present during Gen 1:26
Quoting from my lexicon on the word "make"
Imperfect
The imperfect expresses an action, process or condition which is
incomplete, and it has a wide range of meaning:
1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact", the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.
He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear
1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?", refers not only to the
present, but assumes that the search has continued for some time.
Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?
These relate not so much as to one occasion, as to a
continued condition.
2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.
2a) In the present:
it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father
2b) In the past:
"and so he did" - regularly, year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke" -repeatedly
3) The imperfect is used to express the "future", referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:
3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:
Now "shalt thou See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house
3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to See what "should be done"
4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation, and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.
of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say
5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose", "result" and so forth as, "in order that", "lest"; e.g.
say thou art my sister, "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation, "lest it multiplies"
5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose", or when it
is meant to be strongly marked, then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.
raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"
The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"
"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".
Im not the smartest person when it comes to rules of grammer or anything like that but the idea that God is creating us is supported in a few scriptures even without an in depth word study... This verse helps me understand why I believe we are being created,
Gen 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever"—
Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil made man more like God than he was before he ate. So Man could not have already been made in the perfect image of God.
I think we never are the perfect image of God in the way you seem to mean it. Simply because I think we never become as great as the Father Himself. Not even in billions of years.
I think perfect means perfect for the intended task.
- The task of a perfect surgeon is to save all lives.
- The task of a perfect marine is to end all lives.
I think how smart you are, has nothing or little to do with it. Just look at many very smart scholars who end up with a zillion doctrines.
The biggest stumbling block is often old habits. I'm chatting with Ronen and am learning what a day is. 10 PMs already and still going strong :doh: It's not that I'm the dumbest person on the planet. I'm also open to new views. But it's quite difficult to stop your old thought patterns block the learning process.
WhiteWings and Ronen... again thank you so much for your very helpful posts. I'm still learning and continue to be very interested in learning; and so appreciate any word studies that people share on this forum.
I especially appreciate Lexicon on "make" and smiled when I read WW's opinion on "representative"... in my notebook I wrote:
representative=spreader of God's word
ruler in God's name
============================================
Although I do have a different opinion of what "representative" means, WW's opinion has given me a different way to consider "representative", image, likeness.
My opinion is still too sketchy to share publicly. Sometimes, I feel very much a parasite (Greek parasitos=somebody who eats from another's table (sitos transliteration grain, food)... it seems that the type of food that Father wants me to bring to this particular "table" are devotionals, meditations, reflections...
for sister Anna........now how is it when you come togather 'some' have a psalm or song or scripture!!!!!!!!!!!!!
... I have wittnessed you cntinually bringing forth such things,Anna........... get that idea of your contributions
being neglible outta that head! :HeartThrob: :friendstu:
Isaaih 30; 30-32......... the Lord will cause men to hear His voice...........the voice of the Lord will shatter
Assyria.....every stroke the Lord lay's on them with His punishing rod[rules nations with rod/I see as Jesus
Christ threshing out His truth] WILL BE TO THE MUSIC OF TAMBOURINES AND HARPS
....actually....when reading one of your posts the other day...it was called to my attention your'e always
presence with a psalm/song of worship..but I didn't say anything.........maybe I should have commended
you then? and then you wouldn't have felt so. my apoligies,sister.... :friendstu:
Oh my, no need for apologies Sheila. Actually, lately I have been feeling like I am interrupting discussions ... and so felt a great need to share that I believe Father wants me to share devotionals, meditations, reflections BUT wanted those of you who consistently and constantly and graciously and generously offer much toward the ongoing discussions to know that I sincerely appreciate the very helpful word studies. Thanks Sheila... May His peace, His truth, His grace, His life, His Light shine evermore brightly in all of us. Anna
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 20, 2014, 05:22:31 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 20, 2014, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 20, 2014, 07:08:10 AM
It likely doesn't come as a surprise at all but not all scholars agree the correct translation is "created in the image". The alternative is "created as a representative".
I agree. צלם is related to the marriage root צל, which refers concretely to the shade made by a shadow of something. I translate it as being prepared in his shadow. Many beautiful and deep meanings from this I believe, not merely an statue type of image, such as an idol would be. We live and move and have our being in him, just as a shadow does with its source.
:dsunny:
Ronen
Just curious, you say, " I translate it as being prepared in his shadow." Isnt that saying something is being done, so it is not finished or complete?
:dontknow:
If I worded it wrong in English, I apologize. I do mean it in the sense of having been done...finished...complete. What I see in scripture in a nutshell is that man was created in God's image and likeness. Man came to believe a false identity and thus act in a different way than he truly was. Yeshua came to demonstrate, redeem and restore that original image, and now we are being conformed to it, by an ever increasing awareness given by what he reveals in us, through us, and to us.
Ronen
well,Anna...I feel it was the Holy spirit that showed me your contribution..and I failed to express it.
....and as far as 'feeling like your interupting' goes...I'm problably chief in that. :Oops: But..unlike in spoken
conversations....people can 'skip over' my 'interrupting posts' and remain in the 'meat' of their discussin.
.....consider it ..a littlesalt and pepper here and there..sprinkled about...'interesting asides'
a few 'side dishes' along with the main course? :doh: lol!
and PS I realize there are some forums thatare not as accomadating as the 'Tent"
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 20, 2014, 06:42:26 PM
Im not the smartest person when it comes to rules of grammer or anything like that but the idea that God is creating us is supported in a few scriptures even without an in depth word study... This verse helps me understand why I believe we are being created,
Gen 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever"—
Eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil made man more like God than he was before he ate. So Man could not have already been made in the perfect image of God.
Even though we would understand this verse differently, I can see how this could be seen the way you are seeing it. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that man originally did not have the knowledge of good and evil, and so, since God did, man was missing that aspect of God's likeness and image. Is that correct?
Quote from: sheila on June 20, 2014, 09:43:08 PM
well,Anna...I feel it was the Holy spirit that showed me your contribution..and I failed to express it.
....and as far as 'feeling like your interupting' goes...I'm problably chief in that. :Oops: But..unlike in spoken
conversations....people can 'skip over' my 'interrupting posts' and remain in the 'meat' of their discussin.
.....consider it ..a littlesalt and pepper here and there..sprinkled about...'interesting asides'
a few 'side dishes' along with the main course? :doh: lol!
and PS I realize there are some forums thatare not as accomadating as the 'Tent"
I like that analogy there. :cloud9: That reminds me of some discussions I have been involved in where there was more 'salt and pepper' than the 'meat' :eek:
...and it looks like this could become one of them..so, I leave it to you!! :declare: :friendstu: ps..wonderful things your'e discussing!
Quote from: sheila on June 20, 2014, 10:02:10 PM
...and it looks like this could become one of them..so, I leave it to you!! :declare: :friendstu: ps..wonderful things your'e discussing!
Not at all sis. :friendstu:
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 20, 2014, 04:09:54 AM
Shalom Farlsborough
He is correct in saying that the first use of the verb ברא is in, what is actually called the incomplete state, which is an action in progress. He is mistaken though, in thinking that this means that this action is something that has not been completed yet. One has to understand how the Semitic peoples thought when they wrote. When the incomplete is used, (and it is many, many times to indicate things that clearly are not still in process) it is the writers way of putting the reader right there with the action, as if they were personally witnessing it take place.
Aside from James, which does indeed speak of man having been made in God's likeness, all one needs to do is go back and reread the entire Bereshiyt account and you will see that this exact form of the verb, with the nikkud (the little dots and dashes indicating vowel sounds) is found in one other place, back in verse 21...
And Elohim is creating the great monsters....etc.
No one suggests that this is also something that is still being done, correct? In fact, in looking at the verbs forming the first part of those verses in Genesis, all the through the entire Scripture, they are also incomplete. Again, this is simply a Semitic way of drawing the reader into what is being read, connecting them to it as if they were there witnessing it all.
Also, the completed (what you call perfective) state found in the same verse with regard to man speaks of the certainty of it having been done.
Because the English culture does not write that way, it can, and has lead, to things being taken from the text that were never intended.
Ray is correct about the grammar, but not so about the conclusion he comes to regarding it.
When I read Paul's words, I see man (the male) as the image and glory of God, and I see women as the image of God as well, but the glory of man. I see her as just as fully the image of God as a man is, just expressing different aspects and facets of his image.
Ronen
I just don't accept this. I do not see a completion in Gen. 1:26-27. What is the definition of image and likeness or even a shadow as a finished thing? I do not believe HE is done with what he was speaking in Genesis.
I am finding out I am not near as quick and smart as some of you, especially Ronen. I find his work a good tool for learning, but I do not see it as an absolute.
In my opinion if what we read in Gen. 1:26-27 as complete in image and likeness, the man, no not man, but his bone of bone and flesh of flesh called woman would not have been so spiritually weak to SEE and then eat.
Then again I may be misunderstanding the entire concept of the post. This is just my reading. He is Risin! :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2014, 04:06:25 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 20, 2014, 04:09:54 AM
Shalom Farlsborough
He is correct in saying that the first use of the verb ברא is in, what is actually called the incomplete state, which is an action in progress. He is mistaken though, in thinking that this means that this action is something that has not been completed yet. One has to understand how the Semitic peoples thought when they wrote. When the incomplete is used, (and it is many, many times to indicate things that clearly are not still in process) it is the writers way of putting the reader right there with the action, as if they were personally witnessing it take place.
Aside from James, which does indeed speak of man having been made in God's likeness, all one needs to do is go back and reread the entire Bereshiyt account and you will see that this exact form of the verb, with the nikkud (the little dots and dashes indicating vowel sounds) is found in one other place, back in verse 21...
And Elohim is creating the great monsters....etc.
No one suggests that this is also something that is still being done, correct? In fact, in looking at the verbs forming the first part of those verses in Genesis, all the through the entire Scripture, they are also incomplete. Again, this is simply a Semitic way of drawing the reader into what is being read, connecting them to it as if they were there witnessing it all.
Also, the completed (what you call perfective) state found in the same verse with regard to man speaks of the certainty of it having been done.
Because the English culture does not write that way, it can, and has lead, to things being taken from the text that were never intended.
Ray is correct about the grammar, but not so about the conclusion he comes to regarding it.
When I read Paul's words, I see man (the male) as the image and glory of God, and I see women as the image of God as well, but the glory of man. I see her as just as fully the image of God as a man is, just expressing different aspects and facets of his image.
Ronen
I just don't accept this. I do not see a completion in Gen. 1:26-27. What is the definition of image and likeness or even a shadow as a finished thing? I do not believe HE is done with what he was speaking in Genesis.
I am finding out I am not near as quick and smart as some of you, especially Ronen. I find his work a good tool for learning, but I do not see it as an absolute.
In my opinion if what we read in Gen. 1:26-27 as complete in image and likeness, the man, no not man, but his bone of bone and flesh of flesh called woman would not have been so spiritually weak to SEE and then eat.
Then again I may be misunderstanding the entire concept of the post. This is just my reading. He is Risin! :dsunny:
Shalom Micah,
I do not see what I share as an absolute either my dear brother, and I hope no one ever tries to take it that way. :friendstu: I also believe that he is not done with his work, while at the same time I do believe his work was finished all the way back then. I am fully aware that my saying this will open me up to criticism, but this is the result of my cultural way of thinking, where two things can be in tension with each other and yet co-exist. Could it be (I am just thinking out loud here) that man was originally made in his image and likeness, but that his experience and appreciation of it is still being worked out with us individually, starting with the acquisition of the knowledge of good and evil? Like a butterfly, for example. Everything needed to exist as a butterfly is in the caterpillar, so in that sense it is complete. However, the experience of it as a butterfly is not complete until it goes into a cocoon and emerges. Same with a seed. The leaves, trunk, roots, fruit, bark, etc, of a tree are in a seed. The seed is complete, none of those parts need to be added later to make a tree. All that needs to happen is for the seed to fall to the ground and die, and then it will finds its experience over time as a tree.
If the things I write at least cause you to think, or to understand where I am coming from, even if you do not agree with me, that is perfectly fine, because I used to make an idol out of 'being right', and realize the foolishness of it. :cloud9:
Ronen
" I also believe that he is not done with his work, while at the same time I do believe his work was finished all the way back then."
"...he is not done with his work......".....his work was finished all the way back then."
I maybe out of place but what you said seems like an oxymoron.
For me, with my small understanding, if someone is not done, then that someone is not finished, so for me to understand that his work was finished way back then......still his work work was not done leaves me wondering.
I, me, personally, that's my opinion, believe that the creating spoken in Genesis was and is not finished, it began, and as His Name
I Am ...be or become, come to pass ....to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen
is still a work in process. :dsunny: and i am very happy knowing that.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2014, 05:59:58 AM
" I also believe that he is not done with his work, while at the same time I do believe his work was finished all the way back then."
"...he is not done with his work......".....his work was finished all the way back then."
I maybe out of place but what you said seems like an oxymoron.
For me, with my small understanding, if someone is not done, then that someone is not finished, so for me to understand that his work was finished way back then......still his work work was not done leaves me wondering.
I, me, personally, that's my opinion, believe that the creating spoken in Genesis was and is not finished, it began, and as His Name
I Am ...be or become, come to pass ....to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen
is still a work in process. :dsunny: and i am very happy knowing that.
You are not at all out of place. It is definitely an oxymoron. And we both are happy with and rest in what we know, for we, like Paul, 'run to win that which Jesus Christ has already won for [us].' (Php 3:12) Which I see as another oxymoron. I would like to read more of how you understand image and likeness, if you are so inclined, so that I may understand your heart more completely in this.
In a way, it seems to me like only two things were created in the beginning. Darkness and Light. Chaos and Creation. Death and Life.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world(Let There Be Light)
As the Spirit hovered over the waters of chaos(without form and void) and the voice of God spoke(today if you hear His voice) we see the womb of chaos receiving the seed of creation(all things were created through Him and for Him). Separation of waters(discernment) and the emergence of dry land(understanding) and plants and creatures(fruitfulness).
"For it is God who has said, "Light shall shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."
We see Mary(womb/waters) receiving the seed of Messiah/Logos.
"And the light was the the life of men...The light that lights every person who comes into the world....and the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcme it."
I see this like wheels within wheels, the core being the same within and without through time and the entire cosmos, or in the generation of a single life. I think the nature of the eternal word is that it is always speaking(by faith we know the worlds were framed by the word of God) and always creating(faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God/behold I am making all things new)
I personally think that when the last enemy(death) is swallowed by immortality(life) and God has become all in all that we will dwell in some kind of a state of infinite creativity, not some endless neutral status quo.
Gen_1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen_1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen_1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
.......and darkness was upon the face of the deep....
In 2000 I began a very intense study of the Scriptures... one word at a time...
my study procedure was/is based on
Isaiah 46:10 AMP)
Declaring the end and the result from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My will and purpose.
Three words and the Scriptures that I continue to pray, ponder, praise
BEGINNING, DARKNESS, LIGHT
Gen 1:2 ... DARKNESS face of the deep
Gen 1:3 ... LIGHT 4 ...God divided the LIGHT from the DARKNESS
John 1:1 in the BEGINNING vv 4-5 In Him was Life, and the Life was the LIGHT of men. And the LIGHT shines on in the DARKNESS, for the DARKNESS has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it.]
Col 1:13 The Father has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of DARKNESS and has transferred us into the kingdom (of LIGHT) of the Son of His love.
Rev 21:23
And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to give LIGHT to it, for the splendor and radiance (glory) of God illuminate it, and the Lamb is its LIGHT.
Rev 22:5
And there shall be no more night; they have no need for lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will illuminate them and be their LIGHT, and they shall reign [as kings] forever and ever (through the eternities of the eternities).
==========
I've never had the desire to prove or to reject any of man's doctrines.
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 21, 2014, 12:00:14 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2014, 05:59:58 AM
" I also believe that he is not done with his work, while at the same time I do believe his work was finished all the way back then."
"...he is not done with his work......".....his work was finished all the way back then."
I maybe out of place but what you said seems like an oxymoron.
For me, with my small understanding, if someone is not done, then that someone is not finished, so for me to understand that his work was finished way back then......still his work work was not done leaves me wondering.
I, me, personally, that's my opinion, believe that the creating spoken in Genesis was and is not finished, it began, and as His Name
I Am ...be or become, come to pass ....to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen
is still a work in process. :dsunny: and i am very happy knowing that.
You are not at all out of place. It is definitely an oxymoron. And we both are happy with and rest in what we know, for we, like Paul, 'run to win that which Jesus Christ has already won for [us].' (Php 3:12) Which I see as another oxymoron. I would like to read more of how you understand image and likeness, if you are so inclined, so that I may understand your heart more completely in this.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Yes Jesus won for us, but still we have not finished the race. I do not see an oxymoron.
As for image and likeness, my only answer to my self that I always end up with is God is Spirit. And there for me is the rub..... Spirit, and if I may use the word substance, I believe in my heart/mind that Spirit is of more substance more denseness than anything I have ever encountered in my life to date as I walk on the earth. So for me image and likeness to use another definition is [a] shadow better yet phantom. Again, image and likeness is a shadow a phantom.....Spirit...so there you have my understanding to date of image and likeness....God is Spirit. :dsunny:
I hope you got something out of my input. :Peace2:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2014, 05:28:01 PMHeb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Yes Jesus won for us, but still we have not finished the race. I do not see an oxymoron.
As for image and likeness, my only answer to my self that I always end up with is God is Spirit. And there for me is the rub..... Spirit, and if I may use the word substance, I believe in my heart/mind that Spirit is of more substance more denseness than anything I have ever encountered in my life to date as I walk on the earth. So for me image and likeness to use another definition is [a] shadow better yet phantom. Again, image and likeness is a shadow a phantom.....Spirit...so there you have my understanding to date of image and likeness....God is Spirit. :dsunny:
I hope you got something out of my input. :Peace2:
Thank you. And I definitely got something out of it. I appreciate greatly what you share. Regarding what you shared, my prayer is that we, those who's eyes have been opened to see His reality, a reality more real than ours (as you aptly put it, of more substance), be ever increasingly aware of that same reality in each of us, that we truly are, as James said, made in his likeness. For, to put what he said in my own words, to curse a man made in God's image is to curse God himself. As John put it i a different way, we cannot say we love God if we do not love our brother. This is something I see as far from finished in man, and still something God is working every day in conforming us in the image of his Son (Rom 8:29) who is the image of God.
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 21, 2014, 05:55:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 21, 2014, 05:28:01 PMHeb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Yes Jesus won for us, but still we have not finished the race. I do not see an oxymoron.
As for image and likeness, my only answer to my self that I always end up with is God is Spirit. And there for me is the rub..... Spirit, and if I may use the word substance, I believe in my heart/mind that Spirit is of more substance more denseness than anything I have ever encountered in my life to date as I walk on the earth. So for me image and likeness to use another definition is [a] shadow better yet phantom. Again, image and likeness is a shadow a phantom.....Spirit...so there you have my understanding to date of image and likeness....God is Spirit. :dsunny:
I hope you got something out of my input. :Peace2:
Thank you. And I definitely got something out of it. I appreciate greatly what you share. Regarding what you shared, my prayer is that we, those who's eyes have been opened to see His reality, a reality more real than ours (as you aptly put it, of more substance), be ever increasingly aware of that same reality in each of us, that we truly are, as James said, made in his likeness. For, to put what he said in my own words, to curse a man made in God's image is to curse God himself. As John put it i a different way, we cannot say we love God if we do not love our brother. This is something I see as far from finished in man, and still something God is working every day in conforming us in the image of his Son (Rom 8:29) who is the image of God.
Thank you :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus [fn]by the will of God, To the [fn]saints who are [fn]at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [fn]Him. In love
Eph 1:5 [fn]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [fn]kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
Eph 1:7 In [fn]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He [fn]lavished on [fn]us. In all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 He [fn]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [fn]kind intention which He purposed in Him
Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration [fn]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [fn]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
Eph 1:11 [fn]also we [fn]have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [fn]Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In [fn]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [fn]believed, you were sealed in [fn]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is [fn]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and [fn]your love for all the [fn]saints,
Eph 1:16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the [fn]knowledge of Him.
Eph 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart [fn]may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the [fn]saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
Eph 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
I love how Eph 1 explains how Christ was the Light in the beginning and was created and creating for me , both apply even now ...
This concept because living on a farm has helped I will try to share
when you plant a seed [Seed is Christ ] in the earth [our hearts ] and the elements are all of God the Father
you get a tender shoot and than it forms a husk with the grain[seeds of new life ] in the heads [our minds ?]
as long as the husk and grains are attached you have life in both , but when the husk is taken away , it dies and begins to dry up , sort of like our mortal bodies do , but what was saved is the grain with head and it also serves a purpose ,to be harvested
when used for food or new seed and new life ,it repeats a cycle of death and life , its dormant till its planted in the earth again to spring forth again in its new season .
This helps with a concept of on going cycle , making the Word of God eternal [or lasting in an over and over again , making all things in Christ that come out from Him to me , I can grasp this better knowing how it repeats
I am not sure if this will help anyone here , but thought to share it just the same
God bless you all in Christ :icon_flower:
so a head has multi purposes and it is used accordingly to Gods will [purpose]
What a great thread!
I think you might be right Ronen... Just because we are not perfected does not mean we do not have the image of God within us, and I can think of no other explanation to James' implication that to curse another is to curse God in some way, than that we have some likeness of God in us. But is this being grown, perfected, refined continually? Until God is all in all, yes, praise God :dsunny:
Without a doubt, what God has created (made) is perfect because He is perfect and everything He does is perfect for its intended purpose. Adam and Eve were created perfect for His intended purpose of ultimately bringing all humanity into His spiritual family. All human beings, need to go through a conversion process in order to be born as spirit beings into the Kingdom of God. Conversion is a process.
God's plan of salvation of all can be seen by understanding the meaning of God's Holy Days (passover thru to the Last Great Day) and from the physical arrangement of the temple in ancient Israel.
Outer court = vast number of humanity, gentiles, etc.
Holy place = those who are called. They recognize Christ as the one who died for their sins. Proclaimed by very many orthodox Christian preachers.
Holy of Holies = those who are chosen out of the called. They are the elect. They go on to perfection.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him (KJV)
Gen. 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.(CLV)
And so the word "is creating" bara (H1254) is in the imperfect tense thus meaning is creating man in his image". It is a process.
Many are called, few are chosen, but the vast sea of humanity have not a clue of what Jesus Christ is all about and they do not care.
For those of us who are the Elect, God is working directly with us. We are first called and receive the milk of the Word, and then we go on to maturity digesting strong meat. The entire counsel of God.
God works with us as a potter works with clay, moulding it (chastisement)
Isa_64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. (KJV)
Isa_64:8 And now, Yahweh, You are our Father. And we are the clay. You are our Former, and the doing of Your hand are we all." (CLV)
Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Transformation is a process. Like the larva into a beautiful butterfly.
Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Once He is in us and we in Him we are complete. Yes we still sin but as Paul said
Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom_7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom_7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom_7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We are complete in Him but not yet manifested as Sons and Daughters of God.
Col_2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Quote from: anna274 on June 20, 2014, 07:39:06 PM
WhiteWings and Ronen... again thank you so much for your very helpful posts. I'm still learning and continue to be very interested in learning; and so appreciate any word studies that people share on this forum.
I especially appreciate Lexicon on "make" and smiled when I read WW's opinion on "representative"... in my notebook I wrote:
representative=spreader of God's word
ruler in God's name
============================================
Although I do have a different opinion of what "representative" means, WW's opinion has given me a different way to consider "representative", image, likeness.
My opinion is still too sketchy to share publicly. Sometimes, I feel very much a parasite (Greek parasitos=somebody who eats from another's table (sitos transliteration grain, food)... it seems that the type of food that Father wants me to bring to this particular "table" are devotionals, meditations, reflections...
You forgot a very important part of the definition of a parasite... A parasite does nothing in return.
Regarding representative, don't be to strict applying an official definition to it. Another word that can be used is ambassador. I think the overcomers who rule the Kingdom with Christ are the image that Adam and Eve once were. While I'm quite sure what wrote is correct, I'm also sure it also has other (total 4) meanings at the same time.
One very easy way to test whether or not the imperfect (what I call incomplete) state of a verb means that the action is still in progress is to look at the thousands of other instances of that verbal state and ask if those actions are also still in progress. That will very quickly provide the answer.
Ronen
I don't see how that should work Ronen. In another thread (?) you wrote that the imperfect/incomplete is used to place the reader in the middle of the event. But how should be know the event ended when it's not said so in the Bible? In most cases, it's clear the action must have ended. We can logically assume that a person preparing a meal in Genesis has finished the task long ago..
I'm sure we can all find many examples of incompletes that logically must have ended. One of the reasons an action ends is because of the short human lifespan. But God doesn't have that limitation. So where is the proof that God isn't still creating?
If an incomplete verb in Genesis tells us a boy left the girl he just betrothed to prepare a room for her, we can be sure he stopped preparing because likely he finished the task in1-2 years. If not, he stopped preparation because he's dead for millenia.
But what about Jesus? He's not bound by a lifespan. Surely God Himself knows the incomplete did or didn't finish. But for us humans it just boils down to doctrine. Some think Jesus is still preparing while others think preparation stopped in 70 AD. Yet others believe during the Pentecost that followed His resurrection. And likely there are many other views.
To summarize: We can figure out with high certainty that many incompletes are now completed when they involve actions of man. But, personally I'm not so sure we can when God is doing the incomplete verb.
PS None of the above are doctrinal statements. Just examples.
I would also add that many physical things in the Old Testament have spiritual application in the New Testament. So if Adam represents Christ, but the shadow is not the "very thing" I think it's entirely appropriate to reach the conclusion that Adam being made in God's image and likeness is still occurring today in a much different level in Christ.
While I also disagree with a few things L. Ray said, and I agree that on the simple grammatical level, it's true that such an analysis of language falls short, I do agree with his conclusion that "let us be making man in our image" is essentially the gospel, and the focus of the Bible boiled down two one sentence, indicating a work not yet completed.
Shalom Whitewings,
We can know for certain in Genesis 1:26 because of what is commonly called 'waw conversive', but an explanation of this is probably outside of the scope of this discussion, as I do not disagree in principle with the idea of the image and likeness in some sense still being worked out in us.
Ronen
WW, Seth, Ronen :dsunny: :thumbsup:
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 23, 2014, 01:28:47 PM
Shalom Whitewings,
We can know for certain in Genesis 1:26 because of what is commonly called 'waw conversive', but an explanation of this is probably outside of the scope of this discussion, as I do not disagree in principle with the idea of the image and likeness in some sense still being worked out in us.
Ronen
I would like to know about the 'waw conversive' but I agree this is not the place for it.
Thanks for the enlightenment Ronen :thumbsup:
Fortunately, we do not only hav detailed translation analysis(a very important part but not all) in order to understand what God is doing in us and in the entire creation. We have the Holy Spirit and we have context. For me, it is pretty easy to know and understand that the creation is ongoing in terms of our transformation into the image of Christ and the whole creation eagerly awaiting it's emancipation from the bonds of futility..... just from the comprehensive context of verses on the topic viewed in a good parallel bible and an interlinear. These insights are great confirmation for what we know by the Spirit and the Logos and useful for persuasion of seekers and answering naysayers.
I believe the gospel cannot be bound by chains of antiquity or education. It was meant to be a simple message embraceable by all regardless of educational breadth. "And the Lord worked with them confirming the Word with signs and wonders following". "And the gathering was all as on soul and signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles....."
An equally important part of the creating is the corporate new man that is being prepared in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus to function as a priesthood of restoration and reconciliation in the next age. ( :2c:)
Context is built on verses. Verses are built on words. Words are built on proper translation. And to close the circle words are based on context.
A few mistranslations will be filtered out by the overall message. But if the number of errors increases the main message fades away. ET is a good example of that. For that reason I think detailed word studies are a good thing.
The Gospel is simple but not only simple. For many the message on the surface all they need/want. Great. But that doesn't mean digging for a deeper level is to be avoided.
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 23, 2014, 05:34:42 PM
Fortunately, we do not only hav detailed translation analysis(a very important part but not all) in order to understand what God is doing in us and in the entire creation. We have the Holy Spirit and we have context. For me, it is pretty easy to know and understand that the creation is ongoing in terms of our transformation into the image of Christ and the whole creation eagerly awaiting it's emancipation from the bonds of futility..... just from the comprehensive context of verses on the topic viewed in a good parallel bible and an interlinear. These insights are great confirmation for what we know by the Spirit and the Logos and useful for persuasion of seekers and answering naysayers.
I believe the gospel cannot be bound by chains of antiquity or education. It was meant to be a simple message embraceable by all regardless of educational breadth. "And the Lord worked with them confirming the Word with signs and wonders following". "And the gathering was all as on soul and signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles....."
An equally important part of the creating is the corporate new man that is being prepared in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus to function as a priesthood of restoration and reconciliation in the next age. ( :2c:)
:thumbsup:
1Cor 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Quote from: Seth on June 23, 2014, 10:56:12 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 23, 2014, 05:34:42 PM
Fortunately, we do not only hav detailed translation analysis(a very important part but not all) in order to understand what God is doing in us and in the entire creation. We have the Holy Spirit and we have context. For me, it is pretty easy to know and understand that the creation is ongoing in terms of our transformation into the image of Christ and the whole creation eagerly awaiting it's emancipation from the bonds of futility..... just from the comprehensive context of verses on the topic viewed in a good parallel bible and an interlinear. These insights are great confirmation for what we know by the Spirit and the Logos and useful for persuasion of seekers and answering naysayers.
I believe the gospel cannot be bound by chains of antiquity or education. It was meant to be a simple message embraceable by all regardless of educational breadth. "And the Lord worked with them confirming the Word with signs and wonders following". "And the gathering was all as on soul and signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles....."
An equally important part of the creating is the corporate new man that is being prepared in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus to function as a priesthood of restoration and reconciliation in the next age. ( :2c:)
:thumbsup:
1Cor 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Most definitely. Just as the seed is complete (everything it will be seen to be is already inside it's dna) yet it will bear the image of the tree it came from over time. Nature also bears such beautiful witness to teach us of spiritual things.
:iagree: though I see the seed as the prophetic word in this case where all the DNA is promised to the world through the seed of Abraham who is Christ (if that makes sense). A statue may be seen as an image if its creator but contains no heart.
born again by the incoruptible seed of the word of God, that we might become partakers of the divine nature.
This is why we fight this fight and maintain this testimony, that Jesus died to save all and by His resurrection all are saved.
As in Adam all men must die so also in Christ shall all men be made alive.
If any man believe not our gospel it is because the god of this world has veiled the eyes of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ the image of God.
What greater veil than a gospel the declares from the cross, "Let them burn forerver", rather than, "Father forgive them they don't kno what they are doing".
....in these last days He has spoken to us through His Son through whom also He created the worlds. For He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature(Heb 1)
How are they to see God in the face of Jesus Christ if their Jesus says, "Let them burn forever" from that cross.
We have received power so that we might tear down every stronghold that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God.
The true knowledge of God is seeing who the I AM is in the character and being of Jesus the Lamb. If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness.
Those who see God only as the avenger of evil do not see Him in Jesus crying out "Father forgive them", yet , God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting their trespasses against them.
There is no other God and never has been nor ever will be :o)
And there is no other gospel!
:thumbsup:
In Gen. 1 we read that God said "it was good." 1:4, 1:10, 1:12, 1:18, 1:21, 1:25, and lastly 1:31.
Yet when He created man He does not say "it was good."
In my opinion, perhaps it was not good, because He was not finished with man yet. Not yet finished with the "likeness and image."
Jesus does not even allow Himself to be called good in His walk, it's my opinion Jesus was not finished yet, to be called good.
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.'
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God;
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good, except One--God;
Any thoughts? :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 30, 2014, 11:05:07 PM
In Gen. 1 we read that God said "it was good." 1:4, 1:10, 1:12, 1:18, 1:21, 1:25, and lastly 1:31.
Yet when He created man He does not say "it was good."
In my opinion, perhaps it was not good, because He was not finished with man yet. Not yet finished with the "likeness and image."
Jesus does not even allow Himself to be called good in His walk, it's my opinion Jesus was not finished yet, to be called good.
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.'
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One--God;
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one is good, except One--God;
Any thoughts? :HeartThrob:
Well...what comes to my mind is that Gen 1:31 refers to 'all of which he made', from day 1 to 6. It was (including man), not just good, but very good (tov ma'od).
I under stand that, I mentioned 1:31, my query was, He left "it was good" out after 1;26-27 that's all. (tov ma'od)
Don't know what that means but it can't be bad. :Peace2:
I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that when he created man, that he did not say that it was good. I was trying to share that I believe he did say it was good, very good, along with everything else he created prior to that. Tov ma'od means 'good, increased' or 'very good'. Definitely not bad. :Peace2:
There is indeed something interesting about why his pronouncement of 'good' came AFTER he blessed man, rather than before it, right after he created them. We see this difference here:
When he makes the sea creatures and birds, his pronouncement of 'good' came BEFORE he blessed them, right after he created them.
And creating is the Elohim great monsters and every living moving soul, with which the water roams, for their from-kind, and every winged flyer for its from-kind.
And seeing is the Elohim that it is good.
And blessing them is the Elohim, saying, "Be fruitful and increase and fill the water of the seas. And the flyer is to be increasing in the earth.
(Gen 1:21-22)
As you point out, with man it is different, although I believe he does indeed pronounce the making of man as good, just not in the same way as with the other days.
When he makes man, his pronouncement of 'good' came AFTER he blessed them, not right after he created them.
And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them.
And blessing them is the Elohim. And saying to them is the Elohim, "Be fruitful and increase and fill the earth, and subdue it. And sway over the fish of the sea, and over the flyer of the heavens, and over the beast, and over all the earth, and over all life moving on the land. And saying is the Elohim, "Behold, I give to you all herbage seeding seed, which is on the surface of the entire earth, and every tree which has in it the fruit of a tree seeding seed. For you it is coming to be for food. And for all land life, and for every flyer of the heavens, and for every moving animal on the land, which has in it a living soul, all green herbage is for food. And coming is it to be so.
And seeing is the Elohim all that He had made, and, behold, it is very good. And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, the sixth day.
(Gen 1:27-31)
Unlike the animals, who were programmed to do exactly what he wanted, as creatures in large part, of instinct, humanity was created in potential, to learn how to express the image and likeness of his God in his physical body...not to make that image and likeness reality, but rather to learn to live in its reality.
Because there was a detour (due to sin) which God already knew would occur, provision already being made for it, the pronouncement of 'good' was spoken AFTER the blessing, for it would be then when the fullness of all that God's image and likeness would find fruition. The guarantee of it taking place I believe is in the pronouncement of 'very good', for God never makes mistakes. Good, in its original concrete form, speaks of something inserted so as to complete it, to make it functional. To work as intended. Although this would be a process over time, the end result is guaranteed.
Ronen
Thank you :dsunny: Tov ma'od