An example of olam used as an adjective

[gregoryfl]

I was just finishing translating Isaiah 45 just now, and came across a verse that made me think of a recent discussion on the meaning of things like 'eonian life' and 'eonian punishment', etc. In Isaiah we have a nice example of how olam, (the Hebrew word for eon) when used as an adjective, is not describing quantity (length of time) but quality (its source).

Israel, he is saved by Yahweh with an eonian salvation; You shall not be ashamed nor mortified for future eons.
(Isa 45:17)

Here is it literally:

Yisra'el, he is saved by Yhwh, salvation eonian...

The words 'with an' are added because it sounds awkward otherwise in proper English. However, when stripped back to its most basic form, we find a poetic parallelism hidden in the Hebrew:

saved by Yhwh
salvation olam

The parallels are:

1. saved and salvation
2. Yhwh and olam

When olam follows a noun, it no longer is describing quantity (an unseen period of time), but rather quality (an unseen source...in this case, God).

If the writer were wanting to say that salvation would last for olam (an unseen period of time), he would have written:

Israel, he is saved by Yhwh, a salvation to (or unto) the eon. (לעולם or עד עולם)

I am not aware of any exception to this. This is one reason I am not able to accept the translation 'age-lasting' or 'age-during', since these are describing quantity (in terms of time), and not quality (in terms of source). This one point makes the entire argument that I have read about concerning Mat 25:46 irrelevant, since it is not talking about how long punishment is vs. life, but rather is concerning the source of both (God himself).

Ronen

[lomarah]

Awesome. Thanks so much for sharing.

[jabcat]

very good ronen, thanks  :thumbsup:

[Seth]

"I am the life" - Jesus

[jabcat]

"I am the life" - Jesus

excellent!   :thumbsup:

[Seth]

 :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

How about Gen 6:4.

It appears to me that olam follows as an adjective describing at least to some extent, distance in time.

I think there is an aspect to olam that meant unknown, unknowable, other--world, worldly (olam ha-ba,, olam ha-ze)

So I agree that the emphasis is on a quality, more than as a quantity...... altho the quality is unseeable, beyond the horizon, and I do not like age -during so much either. But I do like "other world" for Matt 25:46

Life olam being the life of the world to come...

kolassis olam, or pur/esh olam being the correction of the world to come, fire of the world to come.

Then Gen 6:4 becomes similar- consistent in my view anyway :) the world of the far distant past.

I think that aspect of world is in there, and that is the reason why the translation chain from olam sometimes comes up world(world without end.... thru whom He made the worlds), but maybe you can better educate me on that Ronen. My opinions on this are based on comparative studies, not any inherent knowledge of the languages.... but I have read through the 450 or so uses of olam in the OT several times over the years examining them in interlinears and lexicons. Really enlightening study to do.

[micah7:9]

Isa 57:15 For thus says Yahweh, high and lifted up, who tabernacles the future, and holy is His name:"In the high and holy place am I tabernacling, and with the crushed and lowly spirit, to preserve alive the spirit of the lowly, and to preserve alive the heart of the crushed."
:dsunny:

[gregoryfl]

How about Gen 6:4.

It appears to me that olam follows as an adjective describing at least to some extent, distance in time.

Gen 6:4 does not fit the criteria. I agree with you that in this case, olam is describing distance in time.

When I mentioned olam following a noun as an indication of describing quality as to source, I mean olam by itself, with no prefixes. Because the olam in Gen 6:4 has a mem prefix, meaning 'from', it makes this olam a time statement, as you said, in this case going backward in time. In American culture, I believe the common storybook phrase 'once upon a time', is similar to מעלם 'from olam', both indicating an unknown period of time in the past.

[eaglesway]

Ok. No prefixes. I see what you mean in regards to "from olam", altho imo "once upon a time" would be better(imo) rendered as "in ancient time",  or "in the far distant past"(as it typically is)- to fit a historical reference rather than appear to be story telling.

In Psalm 103:17 "me olam" is used in this verse as  "The covenant loyalty of the Lord (is) from everlasting(me olam) to everlasting(olam)".

To me, in this case everlasting is an ok translation, rather than say

"The covenant loyalty of the Lord is from the far distant past into the far distant future"

It appears to me that the thought in the mind of the writer is indeed, from everlasting past to everlasting future, and so the context and the subject(YHWH) unto which olam is attached often determines its exact meaning(imo).

Where as in Deuteronomy 15:17 you have.... olam ebed

"then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever"(olam ebed)NAS

or...

"then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life." NIV

"for life" is the better translation here(imo) because it translates the mind of the writer.

This is the difficulty with olam,- because there is no one single word in English or Greek(my opinion) that translates the thought in the mind of the writer for every usage of olam.

The one thing that is clear about olam(to me) is that it always communicates an indefinite, or unknowable(by the limit of view or the mists of time or dimension or veils of the heavens or even simple circumstances like how long someone will live being indeterminate) dimension or duration of being.

Also I think "foreverness" is a part of the quality of YHWH's dimension of being, and it is the quality of His life that makes it eternal and enduring.

I think olam, as a word, is a world in itself :o)

.

[Seth]

I also think age lasting is weak. I personally think that "from indefinite to indefinite" is probably the best literal translation, although words adopt new meanings over time such as "world." In the case of covenants, I think "olam" would be applied to the span of the covenant. So, as long as there is a covenant, God is loyal to it, even if the covenant isn't intended to last forever. So, I personally think that "the covenant loyalty of the Lord is from age to age" is a good translation because I think "age" or "world" retains the indefinite qualities of the word olam (ie the Information Age/World.)

[greg]

In Hebrew, each attributive adjective follows the noun and takes the definite article if it modifies a definite noun.  So that's useful to know here with this adjective as we see it applied in other verses... See e.g., Psalm 77:5 relating this adjective to 'years', and also Isaiah 51:9 relating to 'days' and 'generations'. 

The article is a key aspect in this study.

[greg]

...

When olam follows a noun, it no longer is describing quantity (an unseen period of time), but rather quality (an unseen source...in this case, God).

If the writer were wanting to say that salvation would last for olam (an unseen period of time), he would have written:

Israel, he is saved by Yhwh, a salvation to (or unto) the eon. (לעולם or עד עולם)

I am not aware of any exception to this. This is one reason I am not able to accept the translation 'age-lasting' or 'age-during', since these are describing quantity (in terms of time), and not quality (in terms of source). This one point makes the entire argument that I have read about concerning Mat 25:46 irrelevant, since it is not talking about how long punishment is vs. life, but rather is concerning the source of both (God himself).

Ronen

That's an interesting point Ronen.  I think what  you're describing is just the nature of adjectives following nouns.  In Hebrew the noun comes first, and the adjective depends on it. 

Personally, I don't see examples where the conjugation of olam as an adjective actually changes the meaning from 'quantity' to 'quality', especially in the study of the root word.  I think that's just a matter of the reader's personal perspective on the text in context. In any case... 

The best root answer in English that fits literally every time is "age/world" - time and space together.  Further description is often provided in context or with Hebrew modifiers such as v'Ead (Psalm 45:6 where the writer intends to emphasize the continuing nature beyond his perspective).  By the way, I like Seth's very literal statement, 'from indefinite to indefinite' is probably the best literal translation".  When both uses of the word Eaulm rely on the indefinite article (or indefinite plus plural), that super literal translation (indefinite to indefinite) can be quite root-wordy in a useful way.  But with regard to any distinction between 'quantity' versus 'quality', again  I think that's just a matter of the reader's personal perspective on the text in context - but the text itself emphasizes both (quantity and quality) in the root word because...

The indefinite root word olam inherently means an age(quantity)/world(quality), which shows the connection between time and space.  In both physics and Hebrew, time and space are connected. 

The distinction between definite and indefinite articles in language is like the distinction between dimensional and dimensionless quantities in physics.  A definite article (language) like a dimensional quantity (physics) is connected to a specifically identifiable noun/thing (or in other words, a noun/thing you can touch like this earth or 1 ohm or that apple).  By contrast, the indefinite article (language) like a dimensionless quantity (physics) transcends the physical present into the conceptual beyond (such as 'a world', 1/137).  And this is why the indefinite form of the word olam has been so easily confused with 'forever', because people were taught to assume that whatever exists beyond them goes on forever.  That's what the Egyptians and Babylonians and Pharisees taught - everything is everlasting, every soul is eternal.  In reality, the question is whether you live in a perpetual system (YHVH's Kingdom) that does not collapse on itself.  Mathematics provides us very useful examples Ealma -- we say a perpetual system is fractal and survives charge compression.   

Also, the study word here 'Eaulm' is related or derived from the verb Ealm, which means "to hide," "keep secret," or "obscure."  Knowing that, it helps confirm that this question/translation is meant to be a saga of uncovering something hidden or confusing.  And that's been the human experience with math, but every generation has an opportunity to make more progress and build on earlier successes... 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144...

[Eduard]

"I am the life" - Jesus

excellent!   :thumbsup:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

:iagree:

[marie glen]

hi! ..this is interesting.. "Olam as quality" / sort of space rather than time..?

The Word of God reminds me of a telescope, or one of those kaleidoscopes a child might have. And it moves (telescopes) back and forth - I'm not thinking about reality here, but the Word. Psalm 95 for instance talks about destroying the wicked.. elsewhere, "the wicked have dug a pit and will fall in" reminds me of His return, when the sheep will enter His kingdom aonian.. and the goats into judgment aonian. All this, is in this realm.. this earthly (lifetime? dispensation?)

That's why the Word can speak about destroying the wicked (a better translation than "perish" or annihilate). Workers of evil are defeated by their own evil. By this realm, evil is revealed. And by its (ultimate) revealing is vanquished, most importantly within the hearts of all those learning this lesson (of good from evil, "all in heaven and earth").

The destroying or bringing to destruction is done in this realm, before Yahweh says "the former things are passed away" Rev 21:4. Then, to me, has 'begun', for us, that life olam as quality..

The goats, at Jesus' return, I think, in two ways.. they go to age-'during' destruction in that destruction of man's world / its utter failure (for it is built w/o Yahweh :eek: )

Then, I believe, the goats go to an age'during' judgement, an age of judgment. Of tying up loose ends.. all the loose ends of mankind's experience(s) and history. While those of the 1st resurrection (the elect, as it's called) are in a kingdom age (one following the 1000 "millennium").. And there's a spiritual gulf between the two classes (resurrections, during that 'age' of judgment or "chastening aionian" - ISA interlinear translation). The sheep enter life (aionian olam) the goats chastening aionian (Greek "kolasis" from the root "kolazo" - "to curtail" - Strong's Concordance, to me, implying to not only chasten, but to straighten out, instruct.. much as we too, have been and are being straightened out..)
 
Same telescoping, it seems to me, towards the close of the Book of Revelation, when it talks about the outer darkness, dogs.. interpreted by many that there will be evildoing even after Rev chapter 21 when the Son hands the kingdom over the the Father.. which seems to contradict God's being "all in all" which is not at all logical. So to me it seems to be speaking of this realm, and the proving of it.. that evil cannot (ultimately) exist in "life" because Yahweh Himself iS life, the life force. And ultimately, there is no other life. Evil and evildoers cannot enter the city (all encompassing kingdom) of God. Evil, even down to the tiniest grain of imPerfection, is truly the opposite of live. But I wander..sorry! (from how olam is not merely a measurement)
    :Peace2: :smile: