Aionian God

[jabcat]

I ran across this that I had saved in my documents.  Thought it might be interesting and helpful.  Blessings.

"When the Bible speaks of the "aionian God" (1 Tim. 1:17), it does not mean that God is less than eternal.  It simply means that He manifests Himself within the framework of time.  That which is seen is temporal; that which is unseen is eternal.  When the Bible says that God is "aionian," it means He is "aionian" in the sense that He can move and manifest Himself in the realm of sight.

When the Bible speaks of the "eternal" God (Rom. 1:20), this means that God transcends all time, and He manifests Himself in that which is unseen.  God is the only One who can exist in both the state of time and timelessness.  Jesus, after His resurrection, possessed the fullness of God's life allowing Him to manifest Himself in both the "aionian" realm (when He showed Himself to the disciples) and the "eternal" realm (being with the Father).

"Aionian" life is that life which is applicable to the ages (time).  "Immortality" is that life which is applicable to the state of timelessness. - Ken Eckerty

[redhotmagma]

 :thumbsup:

[VineBranch]

Jesus, after His resurrection, possessed the fullness of God's life allowing Him to manifest Himself in both the "aionian" realm (when He showed Himself to the disciples) and the "eternal" realm (being with the Father).

Would this be 'only' after the resurrection?

[jabcat]

Jesus, after His resurrection, possessed the fullness of God's life allowing Him to manifest Himself in both the "aionian" realm (when He showed Himself to the disciples) and the "eternal" realm (being with the Father).

Would this be 'only' after the resurrection?

I didn't notice that.  I personally am convinced Jesus was with God "in the beginning".  The only way I could see the quoted statement as possibly being true is, if Jesus laid down certain things of His divinity when He took on the form of a man, that when He was resurrected He then picked them back up (his glorified body, flesh and bone rather than flesh and blood, etc).  That does bring up an interesting line of thought;  i.e., how much He did lay down when He became the Word made flesh.  On one hand, I think of Him saying He could call 10,000 angels (bringing in their assistance?).  On the other, He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  But on my third hand, I recall that scripture explicitly says His Father raised Him.  So  :Chinscratch:.

[micah7:9]

I don't understand the word or meaning of "state of time and timelessness." Time "less" something less of time?

[VineBranch]

I didn't notice that.  I personally am convinced Jesus was with God "in the beginning".  The only way I could see the quoted statement as possibly being true is, if Jesus laid down certain things of His divinity when He took on the form of a man, that when He was resurrected He then picked them back up (his glorified body, flesh and bone rather than flesh and blood, etc).  That does bring up an interesting line of thought;  i.e., how much He did lay down when He became the Word made flesh.  On one hand, I think of Him saying He could call 10,000 angels (bringing in their assistance?).  On the other, He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  But on my third hand, I recall that scripture explicitly says His Father raised Him.  So  :Chinscratch:.

I had a feeling a yes/no answer was out of the question. :laugh:

If He laid down certain things of His divinity, then I think we have to undo the notion that while He was here He was tuly human and truly God.

So, are you left-handed, right-handed, or (?) center-handed?  The third hand isn't on your back is it?  Mind you that would be great for those itches you just can't reach. :icon_jokercolor:

[jabcat]

I didn't notice that.  I personally am convinced Jesus was with God "in the beginning".  The only way I could see the quoted statement as possibly being true is, if Jesus laid down certain things of His divinity when He took on the form of a man, that when He was resurrected He then picked them back up (his glorified body, flesh and bone rather than flesh and blood, etc).  That does bring up an interesting line of thought;  i.e., how much He did lay down when He became the Word made flesh.  On one hand, I think of Him saying He could call 10,000 angels (bringing in their assistance?).  On the other, He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  But on my third hand, I recall that scripture explicitly says His Father raised Him.  So  :Chinscratch:.

I had a feeling a yes/no answer was out of the question. :laugh:

If He laid down certain things of His divinity, then I think we have to undo the notion that while He was here He was tuly human and truly God.

So, are you left-handed, right-handed, or (?) center-handed?  The third hand isn't on your back is it?  Mind you that would be great for those itches you just can't reach. :icon_jokercolor:

:)

   As I was writing my simple yes/no reply  :doh: I thought of the "fully God/fully human" statement.  I personally believe He was still divine, I just don't know exactly what characteristics of each he either gave up and/or retained.   One thing I recall is the Hebrews 5:8 scrip about Him learning obedience - which admittedly puzzles me.  I guess that was certainly the human aspect of Him.  But on whether He temporarily laid down any of His divine "characteristics" when He took on the form of man, I'm just not sure.  Anyone have a good scriptural line of reasoning on this?

To micah.  Whether it's the best wording or not in the quote, I take it to mean that God can operate both within time (our earthly experience) and outside of the constraints of time (the heavenlies, "eternity").   :2c:

[Molly]

humbled himself, learned obedience--He had access to tremendous power which he did not use --




Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now?
--Mat 26:53

[micah7:9]

Heb 2:9  and him who was made some little less than messengers we see--Jesus--because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:17  wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Perhaps insignificant, but He was made. G1096 to cause to be.

[jabcat]

Yes, "in the beginning". 

I don't believe "he was made" is saying he was created.  I believe it means he was put in that situation, things were caused to be the way they became.

I could be very proud for 50 years.  Then because of circumstances, be made to be very humble. 

[jabcat]

humbled himself, learned obedience--He had access to tremendous power which he did not use --




Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now?
--Mat 26:53

That's what I'm wondering - if He chose to lay down some of those things.  Your statement "access which He did not use" - makes me think of the "power to lay down/pick up life", yet His Father raised Him.  I would suppose even though Jesus had that power, he temporarily abstained from doing so, i.e., "laid it down". 

[VineBranch]

   As I was writing my simple yes/no reply  :doh: I thought of the "fully God/fully human" statement.  I personally believe He was still divine, I just don't know exactly what characteristics of each he either gave up and/or retained.   One thing I recall is the Hebrews 5:8 scrip about Him learning obedience - which admittedly puzzles me.

That one has always puzzled me.  To learn obedience would imply He didn't start with it.  Yet scripture says:  "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son ..."  If God sent His son, and His son came, that would imply Jesus obeyed His father's wishes, which would indicate He was already obedient.  If He was already obedient, and needed to put obedience away to come down here, why would He need to learn it again;  wouldn't He just have taken it with Him?

[VineBranch]

Yes, "in the beginning". 

I don't believe "he was made" is saying he was created.  I believe it means he was put in that situation, things were caused to be the way they became.

I could be very proud for 50 years.  Then because of circumstances, be made to be very humble.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures.

[Molly]

humbled himself, learned obedience--He had access to tremendous power which he did not use --




Don't you think that I could call on my Father, and he would send me more than twelve legions of angels now?
--Mat 26:53

That's what I'm wondering - if He chose to lay down some of those things.  Your statement "access which He did not use" - makes me think of the "power to lay down/pick up life", yet His Father raised Him.  I would suppose even though Jesus had that power, he temporarily abstained from doing so, i.e., "laid it down".

well, he also says he has the power to pick his life up after he has laid it down.  Mind you, they could not have killed him, even as a human, had he not allowed it.   And, we see this illustrated as they are frustrated again and again in their endeavors to kill him because he will not allow it until the appointed time.


No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded." [Jn 10:18]

[micah7:9]

I just can't stay on topic so I pull out.

[Lazarus Short]

On the other, He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  But on my third hand, I recall that scripture explicitly says His Father raised Him.

The gripping hand is this - Jesus also said that the Father and Him were one.  Jesus was dead, so the Father had to do it.  No problem.

[jabcat]

On the other, He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  But on my third hand, I recall that scripture explicitly says His Father raised Him.

The gripping hand is this - Jesus also said that the Father and Him were one.  Jesus was dead, so the Father had to do it.  No problem.

It's another topic (that we've beat to death  :laughing7:) but some (including me) believe Jesus' body was dead but His spirit lived.  So in that line of thinking, He actually could have raised Himself, but He apparently laid it down.  Otherwise, how could he say He had the power to raise Himself, if He really couldn't?

So that could (let's not  :laugh:) start a whole other discussion here on that aspect. 

I'll find the most current thread on this if anyone wants to hash it some more.  :)

[jabcat]

"Did Jesus Die?"  Probably all here say 'yes'.  However, some believe everything about Him died, including His spirit, while others believe only His body died while His spirit lived on...

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/did-jesus-die-11045/msg149278/#msg149278

[Lazarus Short]

On the other, He said He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again.  But on my third hand, I recall that scripture explicitly says His Father raised Him.

The gripping hand is this - Jesus also said that the Father and Him were one.  Jesus was dead, so the Father had to do it.  No problem.

It's another topic (that we've beat to death  :laughing7:) but some (including me) believe Jesus' body was dead but His spirit lived.  So in that line of thinking, He actually could have raised Himself, but He apparently laid it down.  Otherwise, how could he say He had the power to raise Himself, if He really couldn't?

So that could (let's not  :laugh:) start a whole other discussion here on that aspect. 

I'll find the most current thread on this if anyone wants to hash it some more.  :)

You're right!  Jesus was the only man whose Spirit was His own.  He could do it Himself.

[jabcat]

Jesus was the only man whose Spirit was His own. 

Wow!  Now that's something to think about.  Another nugget.  Well put.  Thanks!

[eaglesway]

I ran across this that I had saved in my documents.  Thought it might be interesting and helpful.  Blessings.

"When the Bible speaks of the "aionian God" (1 Tim. 1:17), it does not mean that God is less than eternal.  It simply means that He manifests Himself within the framework of time.  That which is seen is temporal; that which is unseen is eternal.  When the Bible says that God is "aionian," it means He is "aionian" in the sense that He can move and manifest Himself in the realm of sight.

When the Bible speaks of the "eternal" God (Rom. 1:20), this means that God transcends all time, and He manifests Himself in that which is unseen.  God is the only One who can exist in both the state of time and timelessness.  Jesus, after His resurrection, possessed the fullness of God's life allowing Him to manifest Himself in both the "aionian" realm (when He showed Himself to the disciples) and the "eternal" realm (being with the Father).

"Aionian" life is that life which is applicable to the ages (time).  "Immortality" is that life which is applicable to the state of timelessness. - Ken Eckerty

The word "aionian" is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "olam". Since the speaker(Holy Spirit) spoke "olam"- this is the key root of meaning.

olam means "beyond the horizon"(unknown, unknowable, unclear, misted). It was used frequently(413 times in OT).


The "olam God" means the God of unknowable dimensions. As Paul said, the "invisible God"(Col 1:15); or as Jesus said, "No man has seen God at any time but the son of man has manifested Him". The "aionian God" is a Greek rendering of the "olam God". God is the subject that defines the adjective(olam).

I would say it means, "beyond encompassing, unknowable".

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever (eis aion). Amen.
(Rom 11:33-36)

the aionian God is the God of all that is known now and in the forseeable future and unknown beyond the horizon.

[micah7:9]

Yes, "in the beginning". 

I don't believe "he was made" is saying he was created.  I believe it means he was put in that situation, things were caused to be the way they became.

I could be very proud for 50 years.  Then because of circumstances, be made to be very humble.

I don't believe create was mentioned.

[jabcat]

Yes, "in the beginning". 

I don't believe "he was made" is saying he was created.  I believe it means he was put in that situation, things were caused to be the way they became.

I could be very proud for 50 years.  Then because of circumstances, be made to be very humble.

I don't believe create was mentioned.

That's what some believe, and I took it from your underlined words (without further explanation on what you personally meant) that that was what you meant by your post.  Apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented.  Maybe you could clarify what it was you did mean by posting those scrips and underlining 'was made'.  Thanks.

[eaglesway]

"Did Jesus Die?"  Probably all here say 'yes'.  However, some believe everything about Him died, including His spirit, while others believe only His body died while His spirit lived on...

http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/did-jesus-die-11045/msg149278/#msg149278

Some believe that's what happens in death for everyone. Remember the verse in Peter about "spirits in prison"? They died, their spirits went to prison. Jesus went and procalimed "release to the captives" and then He ascended "leading captivity captive" or with "the captives in His train". The spirits who were formerly imprisoned were set free.

Some say the soul ceases to exist. Some say the spirit returns to God as the "breath of life"- not bearing the personality or imprint of the person who was animated by it.

I personally think there are a few different options depending on the spiritual state of the one who is dying, "The spirits of righteous men made perfect" are not, IMO, impersonal "breathes". They are the minds of the overcomers throughout the ages, who will attend Christ as the "clouds" among the "ten thousands of ten thousands" - a great cloud of witnesses who will receive their bodies at the first resurrection.

I think this is what Paul was talking about when He said,

Phil 3:10-12  ....that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus

It causes many people consternation that Paul is talking about "attaining" to the resurrection when we all know no one can "attain" salvation, and the resurrection is the result of forgiveness of sins- but Paul is here speaking of the "out-resurrection"(Greek ex-anastasis, a word used nowhere else in the NT)) from amongst the dead- the first resurrection, and IMO it is for overcomers only- the Lord knows who they are....."Not that I have already become perfect(spirits of righteous men made perfect) but I press on."

"They overcame Him by the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death."

IMO God has layers of exceptions to things we like to systematize. Things like Enoch; Elijah; Moses; Melchizedek; the wav offering resurrection at Pentecost(saints who came out of the graves), etc.

[micah7:9]

Yes, "in the beginning". 

I don't believe "he was made" is saying he was created.  I believe it means he was put in that situation, things were caused to be the way they became.

I could be very proud for 50 years.  Then because of circumstances, be made to be very humble.

I don't believe create was mentioned.

That's what some believe, and I took it from your underlined words (without further explanation on what you personally meant) that that was what you meant by your post.  Apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented.  Maybe you could clarify what it was you did mean by posting those scrips and underlining 'was made'.  Thanks.

I only bolded "was made" nothing said about created. I only posted scripture, that's all. I believe that made and created are not the same.

Heb 2:9  and him who was made some little less than messengers we see--Jesus--because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:17  wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,
Heb 2:17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Perhaps insignificant, but He was made. G1096 to cause to be.