Reading this passage, some will say that God's will (boulomai) will not be done because some will not come (choreo) to repentance. It seems to me that "to come" is not the right wording. The majority of the other instances seem imply a passive space or a passive action (I'm pretty sure thats an oxymoron but oh well) like how Youngs translates it pass on (I assume using in the same way as Matt 15:17). A receptacle for, a container of, but it doesn't seem to be anything you can actively do.
so we have God's will that none perish (apollumi), and all (pav, pas) passively have or contain repentance
this is a big daddy verse with boulomai, apollumi, pav
Sorry about the formatting, I attached this to the last post hoping that it would post on here, but it just stayed as an attachment,
2 Peter 3:9
NIV ©
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
NASB ©
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
NLT ©
The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent.
MSG ©
God isn't late with his promise as some measure lateness. He is restraining himself on account of you, holding back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone space and time to change.
BBE ©
The Lord is not slow in keeping his word, as he seems to some, but he is waiting in mercy for you, not desiring the destruction of any, but that all may be turned from their evil ways.
NRSV ©
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
NKJV ©
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Youngs
the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,
choreo root chora= region, country, space
1) to leave space (which may be filled or occupied by another),
to make room, give place, yield
1a) to retire
1b) metaph. to betake one's self, turn one's self
2) to go forward, advance, proceed, succeed
3) to have space or room for receiving or holding something
Synonym : See Definition 5818
from 5561; to be in (give) space, i.e. (intransitively) to pass,
enter, or (transitively) to hold, admit (literally or
figuratively):-come, contain, go, have place, (can, be room to)
receive.
see GREEK for 5561
make room, accept (only if given), any room, passes, holding (water vessel), has (no) place,(able to) accept (should) accept, would (not) have room,
2Co 7:2 Make room for us in your hearts; 1 we have wronged no one, we have ruined no one, 2 we have exploited no one. 3
-0.87 Mat 19:11 He 1 said to them, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given.
-0.87 Mar 2:2 So many gathered that there was no longer any room, not even by 1 the door, and he preached the word to them.
-0.75 Mat 15:17 Don't you understand that whatever goes into the mouth enters the stomach and then passes out into the sewer? 1
-0.75 Joh 2:6 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washing, 1 each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 2
-0.75 Joh 8:37 I know that you are Abraham's descendants. 1 But you want 2 to kill me, because my teaching 3 makes no progress among you. 4
I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
-0.71 Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs who were that way from birth, 1 and some who were made eunuchs 2 by others, 3 and some who became eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who is able to accept this should accept it."
-0.62 Joh 21:25 There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, 1 I suppose the whole world 2 would not have room for the books that would be written. 3
"to come" is active
"perish" has suprising meaning
The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action
upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit. E.g.,
"The boy groomed himself." Many verbs which occur only in
middle voice forms are translated in English as having an
active sense; these are called "deponent" verbs, and do not
comply with the normal requirements for the middle voice.
are you saying perish is middle voice or to come is middle voice? and is middle voice the active thing you're talking about? how does aorist fit in with this? thats what the strongs said to come is. I don't have a strong grasp on tenses (or the greek language for that matter).
I see how it can be active, but in all the instances that you take action something else is the driver behind it. for instance Matt 15:17, whatever comes into the mouth passes, but the food is not doing the passing its the digestive system that does it.
Mat 19:11 He 1 said to them, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given. Here the statement is given, then they can accept it. If the understanding is not given to them there is no possible way they can accept it. In the same way unless repentance is given to them they can't accept it.
Perish
Tense-Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.
The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.
Voice-Middle
The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action
upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit. E.g.,
"The boy groomed himself." Many verbs which occur only in
middle voice forms are translated in English as having an
active sense; these are called "deponent" verbs, and do not
comply with the normal requirements for the middle voice.
Mood-Infinitive
The Greek infinitive mood in most cases corresponds to the
English infinitive, which is basically the verb with "to"
prefixed, as "to believe."
Like the English infinitive, the Greek infinitive can be used
like a noun phrase ("It is better to live than to die"), as
well as to reflect purpose or result ("This was done to
fulfil what the prophet said").
Pretty unique TVM combination. Only 9 in the NT. Compare that for example with the 3014 of longsuffering
should come
Tense-Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.
The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.
The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.
Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball, " the boy performs the action.
Mood-Infinitive
The Greek infinitive mood in most cases corresponds to the
English infinitive, which is basically the verb with "to"
prefixed, as "to believe."
Like the English infinitive, the Greek infinitive can be used
like a noun phrase ("It is better to live than to die"), as
well as to reflect purpose or result ("This was done to
fulfil what the prophet said").
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 14, 2011, 03:55:31 PMMat 19:11 He 1 said to them, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given. Here the statement is given, then they can accept it. If the understanding is not given to them there is no possible way they can accept it. In the same way unless repentance is given to them they can't accept it.
Yeah things are a bit weird formulated sometimes.
If you push your car down a slope in 'drives' downhill all by itself. The car is taking the action. (ignoring boring stuff like kinetic energy... :winkgrin:) But initially you pushed it from level to slope. Your action.
You pushing = the dragging of God or God giving the gift of faith.
The car driving downhill is the natural reaction on a slope. Following faith.
It only takes a spark to start a forest fire...
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2011, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 14, 2011, 03:55:31 PMMat 19:11 He 1 said to them, "Not everyone can accept this statement, except those to whom it has been given. Here the statement is given, then they can accept it. If the understanding is not given to them there is no possible way they can accept it. In the same way unless repentance is given to them they can't accept it.
Yeah things are a bit weird formulated sometimes.
If you push your car down a slope in 'drives' downhill all by itself. The car is taking the action. (ignoring boring stuff like kinetic energy... :winkgrin:) But initially you pushed it from level to slope. Your action.
You pushing = the dragging of God or God giving the gift of faith.
The car driving downhill is the natural reaction on a slope. Following faith.
It only takes a spark to start a forest fire...
Am I making a leap in logic by saying that to come to repentance you must be pushed down the hill? At least as far as this verse is concerned. I know according to many other passages that you can't come on your own, but can we say that from this verse and all of the tenses and moods that this is the case?
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 14, 2011, 05:50:43 PMAm I making a leap in logic by saying that to come to repentance you must be pushed down the hill?
I think that's (almost) correct. Faith is given. Faith leads to repentance. Repentance makes you go downhill :laughing7:
The main point is that the push is NOT of yourself.
QuoteAt least as far as this verse is concerned. I know according to many other passages that you can't come on your own, but can we say that from this verse and all of the tenses and moods that this is the case?
What is the case? Coming of yourself? If yes then that's what I mean by weird formulated.
Indeed this verse says you take the action. Just like the forest fire that keeps burning all by itself (unless God also active fuels fire)
But a forest fire starts with a spark. (God)
The verse speaks about events AFTER the spark. :2c:
So the spark is implied in this verse? I guess that was what I was originally getting at.
I think speculation is a good way of learning. But it's easy to fall in it's trap.
There is no harm in considering what this verse means. But when adding to that verse you need proof from elsewhere.
CLV2Pet 3
9 The Lord is not tardy as to the promise, as some are deeming tardiness, but is patient because of you, not intending any to perish, but all to make room for repentance.
What does the verse tell us?
- God is patient.
- He wants people not to be lost.
- He desires repentance.
- Even the undesired situation of being lost is for the the good of the person (voice-middle)
What does the verse not tell us?
- It doesn't say how long His patience lasts.
- It doesn't say how many are (not) lost.
- The verse doesn't tell us if that repentance is initiated by someone or something.
:btantrum: thanks so much, thats what I was trying to figure out is if the cause of the coming is in the greek. I know this can be put together with others, I was just hoping it was a stand alone, its sometimes hard for people to put 2 and 2 together.
You say He wants none lost, but the word want, is also translated will. Is not God's will done? I was having a discussion with an ET guy, and he was rebutting this (and the 1 Tim similar passage) saying God wants none lost but that doesn't mean it will happen.
I fully believe in God's sovereignty, and can pretty well show it biblically, but would like to be able to back it up with a better understanding of the word boulemai.
"Will" that's a whole (forbidden) topic of it's own.
The verse is (possibly) stand alone. But because so many people disagree on "will" external evidence is needed.