10th hour, 6th hour in John

[Deena]

The gospel of John notes specific hours that things happened. Can someone put this in context for me? What marks the first hour in comparison to how we measure time? What is John pointing out in its acknowledgement?

[Tom]

I think the 10th hour is 4pm, and the 6th hour is noon.

[WhiteWings]

See attached picture.

Deleted and updated in Reply #10

[joeteekay]

Very Impressive Chart WW. I guess in regards so Deena's qustion it would be during the the Roman opression period that the times are applicable and that would agree with Tom's assesment.
:2c:

[eaglesway]

I don't understand how the chart goes from first hour at 8 and twelfth hour at 18:00 or 6 pm.

8 plus 12 is 20:00 or 8 pm. from 8 to 18 is 10 which would make the 10th hour 6 pm, not the 12th. what am I missing?

[WhiteWings]

Well spotted.

I'll try to make my diagram more clear, and repost it.
For now I'll just say the day part of the day was always 12 hours.
Obviously that's not true on our clock because during the winter there is far less daylight than during the summer. So variable hours were used.

[gregoryfl]

If you were to make an ancient sundial as was used back then, it would make sense. It contained 12 equal segments, where the shadow would cross each one throughout the daylight hours. As Whitewings said, during the winter months when it gets dark sooner, those 12 segments of time would be shorter, thus shorter hours by our standards. And conversely, during the summer months when it gets darker later, those same 12 segments of time would be longer. This is because the sun is closer to the horizon during the winter months, thus taking shorter time to reach each segment, and higher up during the summer months, thus taking longer time to reach each segment.

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

The gospel of John notes specific hours that things happened. Can someone put this in context for me? What marks the first hour in comparison to how we measure time? What is John pointing out in its acknowledgement?

The first hour is marked as when the shadow of the sun gets to the first segment of an ancient sundial, from when the light first appears. Timewise, it varies depending on the time of year.

Ronen

[Deena]

Thanks to all.  So if I understand Ww's chart, then John specifically notes the time so it correlates with the sacrificial lamb? I will consider this. Something that jumped out at me is the statement "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"--Jesus is God's lamb, God's sacrifice to set right the whole which He subjected to futility and death. Indeed we are the righteousness of God in Christ because being conciliated, we are the demonstration of His righteousness, a just God and a Savior. Because He is just, He must save His creation. He is the Savior of creation for His justice demands it. What a wonder!

[WhiteWings]

Deena,

So if I understand Ww's chart, then John specifically notes the time so it correlates with the sacrificial lamb?

Considering vast parts of the Bible are about or pointing to Jesus that certainly isn't a wrong conclusion.

I removed my diagram. Not because it was wrong but perhaps misleading. Right know I'm thinking of a way to make it more clear.
There are several problems with it.
It's just an spreadsheet, so it's limited in how to present things.
Another problem is that scholars don't agree on timekeeping.

Roman timekeeping.
a] Some scholars claim the counting of hours started at midnight and noon. That's exactly like the am/pm system used in the USA.
b] Other scholars claim the count starts at sunrise and sunset.
c] All scholars agree the duration of the hours varied with the seasons.
d] Even during the same 24-hour day the hours varied in length (in some systems)


Jewish timekeeping
a] The length of daytime hour was the duration of daylight divided by 12. The remaining time divided by 12 was the duration of the night hours.
b] Hours had a fixed length using some very weird and obscure system and the the first and last daylight hour were very variable to compensate for the true length of the day

Scholars seem to agree on a and b but not when those systems were used.
To make things worse it's possible to read Scripture as Jesus being arrest and brought before Pilate etc on one day and crucified on the next day. It all depends on what time system the Gospel writers used.

[WhiteWings]

The events in the diagram all took place around Passover day which is somewhere in March-April. A different date every year. That also means the exact times varies with which year you think Jesus was crucified. Early March the sun rises later than in late April. Luckily it doesn't matter at all for the pattern that was walked out those days. But to understand the pattern the times must be understood.

In 32AD morning twilight was 04:48-05:13 and evening twilight was 18:05-18:30
In 30AD morning twilight was 05:02-05:27 and evening twilight was 17:59-18:23 -->. I've use this in my diagram

I'm not sure when exactly the day began and ended. To my best knowledge it was by sighting certain bright stars.  I'll just use 05:02-05:27 which is 13 hours and 25 minutes.

During Pentecost that same year it was 04:07-18:59 local Jerusalem time. That's near 15 hours of daylight.
During Hanuka* that same year it was 06:39-17:09 local Jerusalem time. That's 10.5 hours of daylight.
*=Festival of lights, Temple dedication. (conception of Jesus?)

In our western time keeping the day always starts at 06:00 and ends at 18:00. No matter if it's dark or not.
However in Genesis Father defines days in a different way:
Genesis 1:5 And Elohim called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And there was evening, and there was morning, day one.

The (ancient) Jews understood that verse as: "No matter the duration, when it's light we call it day, when it's dark we call it night."
That may leave room for assuming the Jews had 15 hours in Pentecost day. But Jesus simply states the daylight part of the day is 12 hours.
John 11:9 Yahshua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?....

I gave a few examples that show the daylight portion ranges between 10.5 and 15 hours. I just picked a few festival dates. Making that fit in 12 hours can only be done by either making all 12 hours longer or shorter. That would make the hours in a 15 hour day 75 minutes. The other solution is using ten 60 minute hours and make the 1st and 12th hour of variable length. In my examples between 15-90 minutes. Sources contradict on the exact method of squeezing everything into 12 hours.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hour
One twelfth of the time from sunrise to sunset. As a consequence, hours on summer days were longer than on winter days, their length varying with latitude and even, to a small extent, with the local weather (since it affects the atmosphere's index of refraction). For this reason, these hours are sometimes called temporal, seasonal, or unequal hours. Romans, Greeks and Jews of the ancient world used this definition. (although Jews of the Old Testament period did not have a word for hour and did not keep time this way)
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526872/jewish/Hours.htm


So crucifixion day was from 5:02-18:23=803 minutes. The Roman hour during the daylight portion of day was nearly 67 minutes long.
John who likely used Roman time said Jesus was before Pilate on the 6th hour. If the Roam day count starts at midnight John's 6th hour was between 05:02 and 06:09 (67 minute hour)
If the Roman day starts an dawn it's 05:02 + 6x67min = 11:46
Mark, Luke and Matthew stated Jesus was already on the cross on the 3rd hour. If all 4 used the same method of timekeeping then there is either a huge contradiction or Jesus stood before Pilate on the 6th hour and was crucified on the 3th hour of the next day.
By now it should be clear that the "Western time" column is a rough indication at best.

If Mark, Luke and Matthew used the Hebrew way of counting all contradictions are gone.
While the exact way of counting isn't agreed upon the Temple sacrifices as shown in the diagram are largely agreed upon.
I hope the diagram is at least clear enough so that everyone can see that Jesus' last day was closely following the Temple ritual.
No matter when Mark, Luke and Matthew's hours started and hour long those hours were, they were exactly the same as the 'Temple hours'.

Some say Jesus was 3 hours on the cross as an high priest. Plus 3 hours as a lamb. (darkness period)
In the next parallel the cross is a symbol of the Altar in the Temple. The Altar was really huge. Several yards high.
On the third hour the high priest ascended the altar and killed the lamb
On the third hour Jesus was lifted up the cross and He was killed. (death sentence)
There is some disagreement on when exactly the lamb was taken up the altar.
a] On the 3rd hour. Tied to the cross shortly after Pilate condemned Him to death.
b] On the 1st hour when the Sanhedrin bound Him. That means the lamb had to wait 3 hours before the actual sacrifice.

Another lamb was readied for sacrifice when darkness starts.
This lamb was killed by the High Priest who said "It's finished". No need to comment on this one I assume :-)

Then the part about Barley selected...
Somewhere between the 1st and 6th hour the priests went into the barley field to find the best sheaf of the field. A sheaf without blemish so to speak. During that period the Sanhedrin found no fault in Jesus but because it was a mock trial He was convicted anyway. After that they bound Him like a sheaf. After that Pilate could find no fault in Him so He was sent to Herod who couldn't find fault either. Back top Pilate who once again couldn't find fault. The person convicted to die on the cross was tied to a cross beam he had to carry. So sheaf-Jesus was tied.
It's unknown when exactly the priests bound the literal sheaf but I wouldn't be surprised it was when Jesus was bound.
Note that the barley sheaf was bound while still in the ground.

The night before First Fruits the priests went into the field again with half the village following them. At that point they cut of the sheaf and took it to the Temple court. The sheaf was beaten with reed so that the stalks didn't break (no bone was broken) and the seeds fell out. The seed were roasted but were never burned. The parallels continue but they are all beyond the scope of Deena's question. Most of this post is I think.




The diagram shows 2 lambs were killed.
1st lamb: Symbolic death when Pilate passed the death sentence.
2nd lamb: Literal death.

Jesus was killed 3 times.

1] Lamb for the house. Exo 12:3 ...a flock animal for a house.
2] Lamb for the nation. John 11:49-51 50 ...one man should die for us for the sake of the nation...
3] Lamb for the world. John 1:29 ...The Lamb of Elohim, who takes away the sin of the world!



It was strictly forbidden for a court to have a hearing during the night hours. Therefore some claim Jesus' trial was illegal because it clearly took place at night. Not so if reading carefully. Mark 15:1 states Jesus was led before the Sanhedrin (high court) at very early morning. That was is trial. The hours before was like the police collecting evidence before going to court.


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[eaglesway]

I think some time systems were based on events rather than hours, marked by their names. The first record of a sun-dial was 293 BC , in Rome, but the first universal sun-dial (one that can mark time segments by the sun anywhere you put the sun-dial wasnt until 100-160 BC. The objective detail of regular hours was not necessary until commerce and industry took over the agrarian life.

So it wouldnt surprise me if the "hour' was irregular, based on events like sun-up/dawn which changes. High noon, which changes, sundown, which changes, just like calendars were kept by things like quarter moon, new moon, equinox, etc.- but then again it may have been by sun-dial.  :dontknow:

[Tom]

Yeah, I learned the hard way about how the industrial revolution can mess with your body clock when I was working all three shifts every week. The doc I was getting my sleeping pills from told me I should quit my job because it was killing me, but I told him I couldn't afford to. The agrarian culture may have had to deal with hard labor, but at least they knew the difference between day and night.

[eaglesway]

been there done that, yuk :o)

[WhiteWings]

I think some time systems were based on events rather than hours,

I think they all were. Take "length of time" literal.


The ancient Jews knew the following time intervals: years,  months,  weeks,  days,  hours,  parts and regas.

The Babylonian unit of time was a time-degree.
A time-degree is the time it takes the sun to travel 1/360th of circle,  a degree. 4 minutes.
The Hebrew Part is 1/72 of a time-degree. 4/72 = 1/18th minute.
The Rega is 1/76 Part.
This is all quite amazing because without using fractions they could keep time with an accuracy of a little under 44 milliseconds.
Obviously that was all theoretical because they couldn't actually measure time that accurately.  They also described it as a twinkling of the eye.

Cubit = 180 Barleycorns = the distance the sun travels in 10 minutes.
Our hour is 6 cubits = 1080 Barleycorns.

[Deena]

Gosh, I had no idea about the measurement of time then. You guys are amazing. Thanks.