QuoteNo, the Lord does not desire any would be lost, but that doesn't mean none will be.
Really! My God's desires, and His sovereign Will are all flowing in absolute determination to consummation.
QuoteFor this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all mankind to be saved, and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself as a ransom or all mankind to be testified in due time.
"Who will have"= thelo= To intend. To purpose.
To will. To have in mind.
To be resolved and determined.
-Dr. Marvin Vincent- Who will have all men to be saved (ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai).
Literally, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Qelei willeth, marking a determinate purpose. QuoteoV pantaV anqrwpouV qelei swqhnai kai eiV epignwsin alhqeiaV elqein
Young's Literal Translation "who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"
"For You have made him sovereign over all flesh, that whatsoever You have given him, to them he should give eternal life." -John 17:2The Greek is quite clear; but some of our versions fail in not repeating the emphatic all (repeated in the original koine), which involves the gift (not the offer) of eternal life to all by Christ--thus obscuring the meaning.
Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T. "All flesh"=
A Hebrew phrase denoting the whole of humanity in its imperfection....
QuoteYou have invested Him with authority over all mankind, in order that He may give eternal life to all whom You have entrusted to Him.
"Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong. This Son, radiance of the glory of God, flawless expression of the nature of God, himself the upholding principle of all that is, effected in his person the reconciliation between God and man, and then took his seat...."
"kaqwV edwkaV autw exousian pashV sarkoV ina pan o dedwkaV autw dwsei autoiV zwhn aiwnion"
King James Version
17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
American Standard Version
17:2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
Bible in Basic English
17:2 Even as you gave him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all those whom you have given to him.
Darby's English Translation
17:2 as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal.
Weymouth New Testament
17:2 even as Thou hast given Him authority over all mankind, so that on all whom Thou hast given Him He may bestow the Life of the Ages.
World English Bible
17:2 even as you gave him authority over all flesh, that to all whom you have given him, he will give eternal life.
Young's Literal Translation
17:2 according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to him -- he may give to them life age-during;
So what do you think happens to those who are "lost"?
Are they lost for an "order" to be set free in the following order (or jubilee)?
Or is the son of perdition that what came from Adam born into all of mankind that still exist in all Christians the 'one" who is lost? ...........as in good riddance from all whom are saved ("saved" for lack of a better term)?
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Blessings
Doug
Quote from: Livelystone on June 13, 2009, 05:03:33 AM
So what do you think happens to those who are "lost"?
Doug
Rev 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
You figure out the rest! :laughing7:
Paul
Quote from: FineLinen on June 10, 2009, 09:55:54 PM
"For You have made him sovereign over all flesh, that whatsoever You have given him, to them he should give eternal life." -John 17:2
The Greek is quite clear; but some of our versions fail in not repeating the emphatic all (repeated in the original koine), which involves the gift (not the offer) of eternal life to all by Christ--thus obscuring the meaning.
Dr. Marvin Vincent N.T.
"All flesh"=
A Hebrew phrase denoting the whole of humanity in its imperfection....
QuoteYou have invested Him with authority over all mankind, in order that He may give eternal life to all whom You have entrusted to Him.
"Through the Son God made the whole universe, and to the Son He has ordained all creation shall ultimately belong. This Son, radiance of the glory of God, flawless expression of the nature of God, himself the upholding principle of all that is, effected in his person the reconciliation between God and man, and then took his seat...."
Don't forget John 3:35:
John 3:35 (Young's Literal Translation)Quote35the Father doth love the Son, and all things hath given into his hand;
Quote from: FineLinen on June 10, 2009, 09:38:23 PM
QuoteNo, the Lord does not desire any would be lost, but that doesn't mean none will be.
Really! My God's desires, and His sovereign Will are all flowing in absolute determination to consummation.
In the bold is basically what my friend was trying to argue the other day. But he also claimed that God willfully (from his point of view) created beings for a specific outcome, some to go to Heaven and some to go to Hell. He didn't seem to understand that if He willfully created certain beings to go Hell, and yet willed all to be saved, that it was a contradiction. He just said that God only
wishes all men to be saved. Then I tried to tell Him that what God "wishes" God achieves, because to wish from a human standpoint is to wish one had the control to do what one desires, but in contrast, God DOES HAVE CONTROL, and so ALL of his "wishes"/desires come to pass. Does God both will and not will all men to be saved? From there he made the excuse that unless God created certain men to go to Hell then those who went to Heaven didn't really freely choose God. The whole thing was a sloppy mess!
It's kinda funny that in the "all debate" it's ok to water down the power of God to let His will/desires/wantings/etc come true.
People used to be burned/exectuted in the dark ages when they even suggested that there was a microscopicly small limit to Gods will. (They will shalt be done)
But to defend ET it's not only ok to have a tiny doubt; it's ok to write down God's limitations in 1000 page books and hour long sermons.
Stating Gods desire-to-save-all-will ends up saving 5% isn't a microscopic limitation. No it's an huge limitation that makes the will of satan 19 times stronger/effective that that of God.
Matthew 6:10, the Lord's prayer
Thy kingdom come. Thy will (Gr. thelêma, qelhma) be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
the same word I think
Quote from: sven on June 18, 2009, 08:02:42 PM
Matthew 6:10, the Lord's prayer
Thy kingdom come. Thy will (Gr. thelêma, qelhma) be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
the same word I think
Bingo Sven. Thelema is rooted in thelo.