Greeting to all
I would like to quote my understanding of the scriptures, and see where it goes. And to learn from others in like manner.
I am a Jewish Christian belonging to no organization or denomination, and I do not attend a local church.
As for Hell I believe Gahanna/Hell was a warning to the first century Jews not be in their temple, which became a flaming inferno in AD 70.
I consider Jesus the Son of God, flowed out from the Father before time began.. "He was equal to the Father in the sense that he was not like an angel except that he was of course a spirit. He was in the form of God." No trinity here. As a friend of mine quoted,
"So Jesus Christ was equal with God in that he was in the immediate household of God, the only other one at that. He was like a prince speaking for the king. So Christ though so high was willing to come to earth, emptying himself, and to die because of his love in the prospect of bringing many brothers, sons of God to glory to fulfill God's word and purpose."
I would like post a topic on "The Purpose of God", a plan predestine before time began. My question would be why did the creator God, create a physical universe. I consider it stated in Hebrews 2:10-13 since I believe not too much happens by chance.
Thanks for reading
Kind Regards
Larry
Hi Larry. I like the content of your post, and good question. And that's all I've got right now :laugh:
Well, we know that all things were created "by Him, through Him and for Him." Since He is called a Father, I would say it is mainly a desire to make a family. To share and expand His love with others. How do you think a father feels with just one child, but desires more? How much greater is our Father than an earthly one?
And who do you think has more joy: a lost child coming into the family of God, or God embracing His child coming home?
I don't know, really, but I think that God created us, as my Baltimore Cathechism taught me, in 2nd grade,
"to know, love, and serve Him, and to be happy with Him in Heaven."
I think He just likes us little critters. He made us in His image and likeness. He counts every hair on our head. He knitted us in our mother's womb. He will leave the 99 to search for one of us. It is the Father's desire that none of us will perish. We are his handiwork. In Him we live and move and have our being. Jesus died on the cross for us. He loves us with an everlasting Love....Nothing can keep us from the Love of God!
WE ARE SO VERY LOVED!
God is Love. He wanted us to Love us....to watch us grow into the people He made us to be.
Blessed beyond measure!
D.
I have kids of my own, and grandies as well. There is a sand pit in the back yard. There have been little trucks, boats, trees, water and all sorts of variations. During this time I have had great fun and much sharing with along with much encouraging imagination has grown from all this.
Now the children are no longer in the sand pit they are secure enough to step out and have a go in many things, yet not to the extreme.
I.M.O our heavenly Father, Our one God, has been using the physical creation in a similar manner as He prepares us for the coming ages.
A nice analogy, Ross.
Thanks!
D.
Amen! Great posts/replies! :HeartThrob: Especially loved sister D's :cloud9:
Quote from: 1 Larry H on November 30, 2018, 02:17:30 AM
Greeting to all
I would like to quote my understanding of the scriptures, and see where it goes. And to learn from others in like manner.
I am a Jewish Christian belonging to no organization or denomination, and I do not attend a local church.
As for Hell I believe Gahanna/Hell was a warning to the first century Jews not be in their temple, which became a flaming inferno in AD 70.
I consider Jesus the Son of God, flowed out from the Father before time began.. "He was equal to the Father in the sense that he was not like an angel except that he was of course a spirit. He was in the form of God." No trinity here. As a friend of mine quoted,
"So Jesus Christ was equal with God in that he was in the immediate household of God, the only other one at that. He was like a prince speaking for the king. So Christ though so high was willing to come to earth, emptying himself, and to die because of his love in the prospect of bringing many brothers, sons of God to glory to fulfill God's word and purpose."
I would like post a topic on "The Purpose of God", a plan predestine before time began. My question would be why did the creator God, create a physical universe. I consider it stated in Hebrews 2:10-13 since I believe not too much happens by chance.
Thanks for reading
Kind Regards
Larry
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!
:Chinscratch: "why did God create the universe?"
I actually think about that quite a bit.. I had what I consider a major revelation about 20 years ago, at least to my understanding. Not exactly about the universe, per se? (Lol, I don't know how to spell that.) But about purpose. And I've been so blessed (so "stablished") since then.
He asked me - at age 16 - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" And, "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm".. so cynical so young! ("A cynic is a frustrated idealist.")
I answered him, but I wasn't real happy with my answers. They kind of fell flat, to my ears.. So I prayed for better understanding. Previous to this I was a pretty solid believer, and one other time I had specifically prayed for accurate insight, which was about Bible prophecy and the return of the Lord. But this time my socks were totally knocked off!
Short answer of course, we're not an ant farm! But this is what came to mind that day.. I'll try to relate it as it occurred/came to mind, hopefully w/o being too tedious and long winded. :doh:
It seemed to me that God, before doing any act of creation, could see all possibilities stretched out before His sight like a floating 360
0 'blanket' stretched out before His sight. Yes, even before Jesus, only straight out from Him one. Because that was what He determined, all things in The Son.
What next occurred to mind was of course He has then done all things - from before creating - just the way He has, in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities. Then I realized/could see, that He is life itself, the force, breath and spark of.. and that He is also Perfection.
When He endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) a whole new world (er, tree) of possibilities 'came about'. Because sooner or later, with thinking ability, comes the ability to make choices. (Albeit, thank-fuLLy! very limited. And the choice for God is actually all His - "He chooses" and "He hardens whom He will" - i.e., choosing the weak and foolish things of the world! Otherwise salvation would be wages/earned, yes?)
Making rational creatures changes everything! Why? Because once one differs in any teeny, tiny way in thought, word or deed, that differs with what He chooses - they become im-perfect, the opposite of life. And ability to make choices is a by product of thinking ability.
Therefor the remedy, rescue, recovery, was "built in from the foundation/beginning".
The next thing that came to mind was how I'd read "the angels (stars? as simile?) clapped" when the universe was created (? :dontknow: ) ..that the angels were created before the universe and man and woman. It seemed to me, therfor, that He waited a long time for the first bound-to-occur rebel thought to occur, as it did in Lucifer (imo). A long time.. because when there was 'only' the Father, the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't that much to 'go astray' about
?! Why wait and only create the universe after that first rebel thought, and after it had matured/ripened into outright rebellion and sedition? - Actually this part came to mind at the end, but that's okay - it came as a question.. "why.. did God wait
so long..." And the answer came right after it - so "all in heaven and earth" would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together at once.. lest one wander now.. another later.. another later.. etc, etc.. taking virtually 'forever'... (all of that coming to mind as answer to the question).
It concluded, that the thing being, was that since God
is life, He lives through, suffers and experiences ALL sufferings which ever occur. All indignations and horrors.. Why, would He put Himself through all that
?!Because He's not creating an ant farm.. or robots, but an enduring un-breakable paradise - computer just crashed.. :laughing7: thankfully restored cause I hate that when that happens - and is creating His own family of many beautiful branches.. with creatures which fly.. and swim.. etc..
That's how my understanding of His purpose, after prayer to understand, came to mind..
Oh! And how "perfect" makes no mistakes.. cannot be 'taken by surprise' by anything :laughing7: and cannot
lose anything..
"God is the savior of all" 1 Tim.4:10.. Jesus said He will draw all to Him, Jn.12:32... "All the ends of Earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him" Ps.22:27 (when? will this be fulfilled? :gsmile: )
"Every knee shall bow and every tongue wholeheartedly (according to the Greek) confess Jesus is Lord" Philippians 2:10,11.
P.S. - :welcome: :hiya:
I believe the universe was created to bestow the first born Son Jesus sibling, spiritual sonship, adopted out of the family of Adam into the Fathers Heavenly household. Angel not included.. Hebrews 1:5 Hebrews 2:10-13 Romans 8:28-30
In addition Romans 8:15 "you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father"....or Daddy "In Eden, the bible account shows, God dealt with Adam as a Father to a son, a family arrangement."
Our heavenly Father becomes real to us as our biological father on earth. Following an intimate relationship with our Father in heaven, and brother Jesus Christ.
..amen.. it's all so wonderful.. isn't it..?
Just as the Son is the manifestation (perfect representation) of the Father (the unseen)
So is the creation (the physical) a manifestation of the Son to see the Father (the Spiritual)
my :2c:
QuoteI believe the universe was created to bestow the first born Son Jesus sibling, spiritual sonship, adopted out of the family of Adam into the Fathers Heavenly household. Angels not included.. Hebrews 1:5 Hebrews 2:10-13 Romans 8:28-30
In addition Romans 8:15 "you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father"....or Daddy "In Eden, the bible account shows, God dealt with Adam as a Father to a son, a family arrangement."
Our heavenly Father becomes real to us as our biological father on earth. Following an intimate relationship with our Father in heaven, and brother Jesus Christ.
If all this is true, and I believe it is according to God's purpose before time began, it begs the question why did God created a physical universe to bestow spiritual children for brothers and sister of Christ.
1 What all people have in common is the blood of Adam. the same blood poured out on the cross for our atonement of sin. Angels on the other hand were not procreated from one source being i.e. Adam, They were uniquely, individually made.
2 Humans are a family as stated, and adoption must come from same. However this is surely not the last word on this proposal. Any scenarios or idea's would be appreciated.
Quote from: 1 Larry H on December 02, 2018, 03:41:59 AM
QuoteI believe the universe was created to bestow the first born Son Jesus sibling, spiritual sonship, adopted out of the family of Adam into the Fathers Heavenly household. Angels not included.. Hebrews 1:5 Hebrews 2:10-13 Romans 8:28-30
In addition Romans 8:15 "you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father"....or Daddy "In Eden, the bible account shows, God dealt with Adam as a Father to a son, a family arrangement."
Our heavenly Father becomes real to us as our biological father on earth. Following an intimate relationship with our Father in heaven, and brother Jesus Christ.
If all this is true, and I believe it is according to God's purpose before time began, it begs the question why did God created a physical universe to bestow spiritual children for brothers and sister of Christ.
1 What all people have in common is the blood of Adam. the same blood poured out on the cross for our atonement of sin. Angels on the other hand were not procreated from one source being i.e. Adam, They were uniquely, individually made.
2 Humans are a family as stated, and adoption must come from same. However this is surely not the last word on this proposal. Any scenarios or idea's would be appreciated.
Are not angels a part of our family, the heavenly host in itself, to minister to us --- for each to minister to us --- for each to minister to us at their proper time? I myself believe so.
I agree the angel's minister to us, in preparation for God's ultimate purpose. God and His Son Jesus are considered in my estimation the Royal Family higher than anyone in the universe, including the angel's outside of it. And according to God's purpose in creation" it WAS TO BRING MANY SONS TO GLORY. "
Hebrews 2:10 IN BRINGING MANY SONS TO GLORY, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. NIV
God makes a distinction between the angel's and Jesus, which we can also call God Father intimately. Hebrews 1:5-7
For TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS DID GOD EVER SAY, "YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER?" Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son? " 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." 7 In speaking of the angels he says, "HE MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, HIS SERVANTS' FLAMES OF FIRE." Hebrews 1:5-7
So I think although the angels' are called the sons of God in the bible, they are not the CHILDREN OF GOD WHO SHARE THE GLORY OF CHRIST. That glory I believe is to be adopted into the Royal Family as stated above.
Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings IN ORDER THAT WE MAY ALSO SHARE IN HIS GLORY. NIV
All caps mine
For me, what I see in the "the glory" relates to "a name above all names"
What I mean by this is in the example of words; when we use the words like kindness, gentleness, patience, meekness, etc. these words are part of a family, with the family name being Love, and that "Grace" is a word above all words, also understood as "a name above all names" in that each fruit of the Spirit is also a word, and each can be understood separately and can be seen as different attributes, but the word "grace" includes every attribute.
It is understanding that if we describe someone as gentle, the word "grace" might not come to mind in the definition of gentleness, but when we describe someone as being "grace" gentleness is always included in the definition
In short, gentleness is a part of "grace"; but "grace" describes more then just gentleness
In which we can also understand that Christ is the firstborn, the greatest son, and we also are sons and can share in His Glory of being firstfruits, but also knowing that He will always "BE" the first because there can never be another first
In other words; we can "be like" the first, but there is only one "first"; we can share in the honor of "being like" the first (being like Christ), but Christ is the only one that has the single honor of "BEING" the first
Hope I did not cause anyone any confusion
Blessings
I thought there might be additional information via the Greek..
Copy/Pasted -
5207 hyiós – properly, a son (by birth or adoption); (figuratively) anyone sharing the same nature as their Father. For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the heavenly Father – through Christ
Which reflects what I think of as a prime reason — imperfection has been allowed, even engineered to occur.
But as to why He created the universe, to me it is why did He create.
He was complete, etc w/o it..
I believe it's not so much "created" as "creating.
So the ? to me is, "what" is He creating..
As I would assume the what, the draft, blueprint, plan would come first.
Then is the "how" - how to have the finished product which is the design, the end result wanted.
So in smaller more human terms. He builds the house, and included are the occupants.
The thing being, we've concluded a prime reason is to bring many sons (descendants) to glory (perfection, imo)
But why a universe? Matter? (Physis)
Some commentary on Rev. 21, sums things up this way:
We'll worth reading, imo, THE NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.
(1) And I saw a new heaven . . .—The hope of the renewal and restitution of all things had been long cherished. Earlier prophets had sanctioned the hope: Isaiah had told of new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 65:17); Ezekiel had closed his prophecy with the splendid vision of a renewed land of promise (Ezekiel 40-48); Christ Himself had spoken of the era which He inaugurated as the regeneration (Matthew 19:28); His followers soon caught the truth that the outcome of the gospel age would be the realisation of all those marvellous visions with which prophets had sustained the fainting hopes of the people of God. The hope was not to be for ever receding as new height after height was surmounted. It will not always be said, "The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth" (Ezekiel 12:22). The fulfilment may seem to tarry; the unbelieving might doubt or scoff (Matthew 24:43; 1Thessalonians 5:2; 2Peter 3:4); but those who felt that the gospel was a power of spiritual regeneration, making all things new (2Corinthians 5:17), learned to look forward to the widest and fullest restoration, and to expect new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (2Peter 3:13). The characteristic word which runs throughout the description is the word "new." All things are to be made new: the heavens and earth are new; the Jerusalem is new. There are two words which are translated new in our English version: one of these (neos) relates to time; the other (kainos) relates to quality. The one would be applied to what had recently come into existence; the other to what showed fresh features. The tomb, for example, in which our Lord's body was laid was new, not in the sense that it had been recently hewn out of the rock, but in the sense that it had never been used before; it may have been long made, but it was one wherein never man was yet laid. To describe it the second word (kainos) is used (Matthew 27:60 and John 19:41). In the same way, the wine-skins (called "bottles" in our English version) required for the new wine were not necessarily wine-skins only just prepared for service, but they were skins which had not grown withered, but retained their freshness and elasticity. Here, again, the second word (kainos) is employed to describe them. Now, it is this latter word which is used throughout this chapter, and, indeed, throughout the book of Revelation. The newness which is pictured is the newness of freshness: the old, decaying, enfeebling, and corrupting elements are swept away. The aspects and features which will surround the inhabitants of that new earth will be full of novelty to satisfy the progressive instincts of our nature; but the imagery no less conveys the assurance that the conservative instinct, which clings to what is old, and finds sanctity in the past, will not be disregarded. All things may be new, full of fresh and fair beauty; but all things will not be strange; there must be some correspondency between the old and the new, when the new things are called new heavens, new earth, new Jerusalem. The description is figurative, but the spirit of it implies that in the restitution age the sweetness of things loved and familiar will blend with the charm of all that is fresh and new.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/21-1.htm
To me, it seems part of the whole thing is.. matter, as opposed to only Spirit, has within it, more 'temptation'.. so, His character and nature must be a/the major part of the son's of glory's nature.. Or, it will be corrupted.. which is exactly what we have.
Was this unforeseen on God's part? :laughing7:
Obviously not.. So how to have rational, thinking creatures with full range of reasoning - as opposed to very young childlike or fully programmed/robotic?
Matter = more temptation
So the sons and daughters must be fully programmed, BUT retain and have full range of reasoning.
Of course His Word tells us. And the more we consistently read it, the more the puzzle pieces all fit together. All described over and overcome with many ways of saying it. Simplicity itself, I believe.. but humans like to complicate things (I think it makes humans feel wise if everything is super complicated and this is part of the reason things seem so complicated, is the human/[presently] carnal influence.)
So what does His Word day He is presently doing? I think it is this - He is writing His Law - summed up in one word - love - upon every heart and mind. Upon every psyche.
That all sons of glory fully comprehend and fully understand what is good from what is evil. Which I believe is the same as life from death/non-life. And ie, one (ultimately) cannot separate theirself from God - the LiFe source. To do so is to perish for the wages (result) of sin is.. immortality in hell? No. Death.
But we know, the last enemy vanquished will be death. Meaning there shall not be death/none dead, or death would have victory aNd sting..
To me He wanted to make a universe, matter, but w/o corruption/rot. Or He would have created only spirit creatures / spirits / winds.. And He wants physical creatures, from insects to thinking, reasoning, creative humans/sons, who fully understand and have fully overcome anti-love and anti-perfection, ie, self interest as primacy.. Not able to be corrupted. (Beginning w/ two crowds of Rev. 7 - can tell they are 2 groups as one is numbered and one is too many to number.)
Quote from: jugghead on December 02, 2018, 02:53:29 PM
For me, what I see in the "the glory" relates to "a name above all names"
What I mean by this is in the example of words; when we use the words like kindness, gentleness, patience, meekness, etc. these words are part of a family, with the family name being Love, and that "Grace" is a word above all words, also understood as "a name above all names" in that each fruit of the Spirit is also a word, and each can be understood separately and can be seen as different attributes, but the word "grace" includes every attribute.
It is understanding that if we describe someone as gentle, the word "grace" might not come to mind in the definition of gentleness, but when we describe someone as being "grace" gentleness is always included in the definition
In short, gentleness is a part of "grace"; but "grace" describes more then just gentleness
In which we can also understand that Christ is the firstborn, the greatest son, and we also are sons and can share in His Glory of being firstfruits, but also knowing that He will always "BE" the first because there can never be another first
In other words; we can "be like" the first, but there is only one "first"; we can share in the honor of "being like" the first (being like Christ), but Christ is the only one that has the single honor of "BEING" the first
Hope I did not cause anyone any confusion
Blessings
Well said and I agree, however I am not sure where this was going or why it was posted according to the subject matter. Perhaps you can clear that up. I would be interest to know how it relates.
However this part I completely agree with that there can never be an another first. And never be a need for it.
"In which we can also understand that Christ is the firstborn, the greatest son, and we also are sons and can share in His Glory of being firstfruits, but also knowing that He will always "BE" the first because there can never be another first"
Quote from: marie glen on December 02, 2018, 04:27:44 PM
I thought there might be additional information via the Greek..
Copy/Pasted -
5207 hyiós – properly, a son (by birth or adoption); (figuratively) anyone sharing the same nature as their Father. For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the heavenly Father – through Christ
Which reflects what I think of as a prime reason — imperfection has been allowed, even engineered to occur.
But as to why He created the universe, to me it is why did He create.
He was complete, etc w/o it..
I believe it's not so much "created" as "creating.
So the ? to me is, "what" is He creating..
As I would assume the what, the draft, blueprint, plan would come first.
Then is the "how" - how to have the finished product which is the design, the end result wanted.
So in smaller more human terms. He builds the house, and included are the occupants.
The thing being, we've concluded a prime reason is to bring many sons (descendants) to glory (perfection, imo)
But why a universe? Matter? (Physis)
Some commentary on Rev. 21, sums things up this way:
We'll worth reading, imo, THE NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.
(1) And I saw a new heaven . . .—The hope of the renewal and restitution of all things had been long cherished. Earlier prophets had sanctioned the hope: Isaiah had told of new heavens and new earth (Isaiah 65:17); Ezekiel had closed his prophecy with the splendid vision of a renewed land of promise (Ezekiel 40-48); Christ Himself had spoken of the era which He inaugurated as the regeneration (Matthew 19:28); His followers soon caught the truth that the outcome of the gospel age would be the realisation of all those marvellous visions with which prophets had sustained the fainting hopes of the people of God. The hope was not to be for ever receding as new height after height was surmounted. It will not always be said, "The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth" (Ezekiel 12:22). The fulfilment may seem to tarry; the unbelieving might doubt or scoff (Matthew 24:43; 1Thessalonians 5:2; 2Peter 3:4); but those who felt that the gospel was a power of spiritual regeneration, making all things new (2Corinthians 5:17), learned to look forward to the widest and fullest restoration, and to expect new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness (2Peter 3:13). The characteristic word which runs throughout the description is the word "new." All things are to be made new: the heavens and earth are new; the Jerusalem is new. There are two words which are translated new in our English version: one of these (neos) relates to time; the other (kainos) relates to quality. The one would be applied to what had recently come into existence; the other to what showed fresh features. The tomb, for example, in which our Lord's body was laid was new, not in the sense that it had been recently hewn out of the rock, but in the sense that it had never been used before; it may have been long made, but it was one wherein never man was yet laid. To describe it the second word (kainos) is used (Matthew 27:60 and John 19:41). In the same way, the wine-skins (called "bottles" in our English version) required for the new wine were not necessarily wine-skins only just prepared for service, but they were skins which had not grown withered, but retained their freshness and elasticity. Here, again, the second word (kainos) is employed to describe them. Now, it is this latter word which is used throughout this chapter, and, indeed, throughout the book of Revelation. The newness which is pictured is the newness of freshness: the old, decaying, enfeebling, and corrupting elements are swept away. The aspects and features which will surround the inhabitants of that new earth will be full of novelty to satisfy the progressive instincts of our nature; but the imagery no less conveys the assurance that the conservative instinct, which clings to what is old, and finds sanctity in the past, will not be disregarded. All things may be new, full of fresh and fair beauty; but all things will not be strange; there must be some correspondency between the old and the new, when the new things are called new heavens, new earth, new Jerusalem. The description is figurative, but the spirit of it implies that in the restitution age the sweetness of things loved and familiar will blend with the charm of all that is fresh and new.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/21-1.htm
To me, it seems part of the whole thing is.. matter, as opposed to only Spirit, has within it, more 'temptation'.. so, His character and nature must be a/the major part of the son's of glory's nature.. Or, it will be corrupted.. which is exactly what we have.
Was this unforeseen on God's part? :laughing7:
Obviously not.. So how to have rational, thinking creatures with full range of reasoning - as opposed to very young childlike or fully programmed/robotic?
Matter = more temptation
So the sons and daughters must be fully programmed, BUT retain and have full range of reasoning.
Of course His Word tells us. And the more we consistently read it, the more the puzzle pieces all fit together. All described over and overcome with many ways of saying it. Simplicity itself, I believe.. but humans like to complicate things (I think it makes humans feel wise if everything is super complicated and this is part of the reason things seem so complicated, is the human/[presently] carnal influence.)
So what does His Word day He is presently doing? I think it is this - He is writing His Law - summed up in one word - love - upon every heart and mind. Upon every psyche.
That all sons of glory fully comprehend and fully understand what is good from what is evil. Which I believe is the same as life from death/non-life. And ie, one (ultimately) cannot separate theirself from God - the LiFe source. To do so is to perish for the wages (result) of sin is.. immortality in hell? No. Death.
But we know, the last enemy vanquished will be death. Meaning there shall not be death/none dead, or death would have victory aNd sting..
To me He wanted to make a universe, matter, but w/o corruption/rot. Or He would have created only spirit creatures / spirits / winds.. And He wants physical creatures, from insects to thinking, reasoning, creative humans/sons, who fully understand and have fully overcome anti-love and anti-perfection, ie, self interest as primacy.. Not able to be corrupted. (Beginning w/ two crowds of Rev. 7 - can tell they are 2 groups as one is numbered and one is too many to number.)
If God was complete in my estimation why create a corrupted universe at all, and just produce spiritual children. Sometimes a father want a larger family. Nevertheless I agree why not produce more spiritual children, and save the time work and energy for creating a physical universe at all. Even though doing same is no big deal for Him. :dsunny: I have been working on that for a very long time, and presented a scenario in a posting above. and consider it not the last word on this stuff
So from the commentary which agrees with other commentaries that in the future there will be literally a New Heavens and New Earth, a paradise if you will. and so "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Revelation 21:4"
That means NO HEAVENLY RESURRECTION of the children of God, and the heavenly family concept presented would be null and void . Doesn't that only works if the expression NH and Earth is not fundamentally symbolic in nature? chapter 21.
And so Father God would have two families, one in heaven and another on earth. The existing one, and the future one to come. Both in the likeness of God's Son. I am not sure if this is what the post is getting at. Need some intake on that to get the gist of it.
Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. NIV
compare
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. NIV
Quote27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. NIV
compare
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. NIV
Quite simple IMO. They were created in God's image, creation fell and image corrupted, and believers right now are being conformed to His image.
QuoteIf God was complete in my estimation why create a corrupted universe at all, and just produce spiritual children. Sometimes a father want a larger family. Nevertheless I agree why not produce more spiritual children, and save the time work and energy for creating a physical universe at all. Even though doing same is no big deal for Him.
Sure we don't have the amount of wisdom that God has, but I like to think of questions like these in this way: If there were a better way to do things, God would have done it that way. Since everything is like this, we know that God decided it was the best way to do things.
And here's an interesting thing to note, the very first
fruit of the Spirit is
patience (or
long suffering, literally)
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected,
not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ecc_1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:
it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on December 02, 2018, 08:59:46 PM
Quote27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. NIV
compare
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. NIV
Quite simple IMO. They were created in God's image, creation fell and image corrupted, and believers right now are being conformed to His image.
QuoteIf God was complete in my estimation why create a corrupted universe at all, and just produce spiritual children. Sometimes a father want a larger family. Nevertheless I agree why not produce more spiritual children, and save the time work and energy for creating a physical universe at all. Even though doing same is no big deal for Him.
Sure we don't have the amount of wisdom that God has, but I like to think of questions like these in this way: If there were a better way to do things, God would have done it that way. Since everything is like this, we know that God decided it was the best way to do things.
And here's an interesting thing to note, the very first fruit of the Spirit is patience (or long suffering, literally)
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Ecc_1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Why is this so, patience is needed
Also, since the bible is clear as firmly believed by Christians that God is going to take men to heaven, the question may be asked, why did God insert this change into his activity when Adam at the forbidden fruit. Would God have said, I didn't know that. So of course everything is going according to the way God planned it before time began. If not He would be dancing to the devils tune as they say. :banana:
Romans 8:28 And we know that in
all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 For those
God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
he also glorified.
That purpose was to "bring many sons to glory"
10
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their
salvation perfect through suffering.
In order for Jesus to do this, bring many sons to glory, he
had to endure suffering on the cross for the forgiveness of sin for His brother and sister.
Finally Jesus can say,
Hebrews 2:13 "Here am I, and the children God has given me" :dsunny:
I believe this is not religion, it is a family arrangement from beginning to end.
Amen! ..and in a manner of speaking (I believe, that is, that) we are being programmed! This chewing upon good and evil, is accomplishing His writing/deeply engraving of His law (summed up in Love) on every heart and mind / psyche (or soul if one prefers). Creating His own family in His likeness and nature, thus, also, an un-breakable paradise perfection.. (for all!) :cloud9:
Quote from: 1 Larry H on December 02, 2018, 09:18:22 AM
So I think although the angels' are called the sons of God in the bible, they are not the CHILDREN OF GOD WHO SHARE THE GLORY OF CHRIST. That glory I believe is to be adopted into the Royal Family as stated above.
Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings IN ORDER THAT WE MAY ALSO SHARE IN HIS GLORY. NIV
Like I said in my post, I hope I did not cause any confusion, so I will try to clarify. My post was in reference to what I just quoted of you.
That
the angels are not the CHILDREN OF GOD WHO SHARE THE GLORY OF CHRIST, in that the angels can share in the glory of "being like" Christ but that they cannot share in the glory of "being the first"
In this physical world, I have two older brothers, even though all three of us have the same father, I can share in the glory of being a son, but I cannot share in the glory of being the first son my father had, that fact can never change no matter what I do.
To take this concept to an extreme, even if I killed my two older brothers, I am still not the first son.
Of which, I believe is the reason for this physical existence, for us to understand that we can be a
"co-heir" of the kingdom, but we can't be the
"sole/single heir" of the kingdom no matter what we do, with the understanding of "ruling with" and not "ruling over" it's inhabitants.
I believe it is a lesson we all need to understand by seeing it in this existence, that it is not a matter of "ruling over" others (that one is greater than another), it is a matter of "ruling with" others (all are equal), we were all subjected to corruption so He could show mercy to all (parapharsed) and that mercy (forgiveness) shall triumph over judgment (condemnation/corrupt judgment).
And that the corrupted judgment is thinking some are better than others or will rule over others.
But that's just my opinion. Hope that makes sense.
Blessings
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. Rom 8
The universe was created so that all things could be brought into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. Eph 1
According to Paull, as I read it, this is God's good pleasure, and His plan and purpose from the beginning- everything created by Christ gathered back into Christ.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Co1 1
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15
:cloud9: All adversarial-ism vanquished.. He created. And "it was all good" ..perfect reflection of Him.. Things engineered so all "in heaven and earth" would be subjected to vanity (disobedience and the road of the carnal/self-ish nature, which results in death. Being the opposite of God, who is life (imo.) Death to be the last enemy vanquished. And Result: the writing of His law upon every heart "in heaven and earth".. and NO curiosity about the other road.. thus Paradise/Perfection, sealed?
The hope (expectation is a better translation) expectation that all things in heaven and earth (creatures, I've always assumed) into the glorious freedom of being children of God.. The very creation itself suffering, for mankind was given dominion of it, and at the fall, it fell too.. And is why heaven and earth will be made new. :cloud9:
The expectation of all things in heaven and earth being under Christ.. (No more "i will ascend like/above the Most High.. :laughing7: we just all, in heaven and earth, need to realize it cannot be done.. "Life" apart from God? I think not..
I once read of a theory that God created humans to save the universe from Satan.. Like something came about which took God by surprise? :eek:
Poor God, Satan caught Him when He wasnt looking I guess :dunno2:
I.M.O God created Satan.
Gave him a job to do; and this was all before man was created.
Jesus states Satan was a murderer from the beginning.[John 8;44]
John also points this out in 1 John3;8 about the devil sinning from the beginning.
Paul mentions handing a couple of dude to Satan for their correction - 1 Tim 1;20
Jesus recognised Satan as ruler of this age whilst being tempted in the wilderness.
Seems Satan throws the book at us about legal matters. Twists everything in an ambiguous manner and inflicts punishment to the max.
Wants every person to worship him, just like Nebuchadnezzar demonstrated. I.M.O this is why we are told in church to
"heads down, eyes closed."
Jesus tells us to come like a child, and no child comes freely with the head down or the eyes closed, otherwise they would bump into all sorts of things, and not see where they are going- just like the church seems to behave without being aware of that similarity.
All of this for a reason- which is revealed to us all at our appointed time as part of our wisdom in what to truly value, and the literality of love conquering all.
Amen! That's very interesting.. I agree with just a slight difference. All ordered, arranged and engineered by God - not some surprise event which oh dear, whatever shall God do now!? :doh: :laughing7: I think of the adversary as part, or that is, head of "the angels which left their first place" (appointment). As the verse points out angels can leave their (appointed) place (position?) And I tend to believe it occurred once and not twice as it seems some believers have come to believe, with two classes or groups of fallen or dark angels.
And I believe God only created the universe and man and woman / Adam and Eve, after what I think of as the first bound to occur rebel thought, not only occurred but had ripened into outright potential sedition and rebellion. As it seems the most logical to me that thinking ability includes the ability to make choices. (But not of course the biggie/ the big choice! But that one is ONLY arranged and ordered ["Kosmos" or form of/ordered] by God.) ..."left their place".. Which boils down to, does rationality include being able to make, ultimately, all range of choices (except the one for God, that being only ordered by God, each in their own order (division?)
This, to me, portrays His Great patience.. "Beginning" of course can refer, like Genesis, to the beginning of earthly creation..)
But! If He did create Satan as a mastermind of evil originally, that would explain, to me anyway, the "scapegoat" as one who does actually or forever "perish". Simpler to create an evil dude and then cast him out/throw him away.. than to wait millennia for that first bound to occur idea of, do we really have to do everything God's way?!" As it seems like it could be a long wait, when there was only the Father/His Presence, the Son, and the angels/like winds, that there wouldn't be that much to go astray about. But at the exactly right moment.. that 'little' garden in a vast universe, innocent and ripe/not so difficult to deceive, and lead to the wRong road of living which becomes the road of death, as opposed to the one of Life.
But upon which road all in heaven and earth are learning good from evil (life from death? Nonlife) whereby He is writing (deeply engraving) His Law (love!) upon every heart and mind. (Sealing us? Like we are being exposed to evil, like being vaccinated against it?) lol. ALL arranged and ordered/kosmos by God.. not some unforeseen occurrence, which of course is impossible!
:Peace2:
QuoteWhat is the full preterist view of the future? Does anything happen to change the age we're in, or does life and generations and nations rising and falling continue into all foreseeable future..?
Yes, that seems to be the scenario of the full preterist view since they believe all things were fulfilled in the first century. My take is a little different then the full Preterist ending, we die, and enter into the heavenly household of God in the likeness of Jesus.
In short this life is only a bus stop to the next. I don't find it strange that in the natural order of this planet all things get eradicated, including the biological human being. Since Adam and Eve never did have eternal life in the first place prior to the fall.
God left them, all with the blood of Adam, with a free will to choose for themselves in a world of corruption which I think caused the scenario question. It seem to me this world with never be a paradise as suggest by those who take Revelation 21:4 literally.
:Oops: :offtopic: :mlaugh: (Or that is, wrong thread - http://tentmaker.org/forum/welcome-central/preterism-the-new-frontier-of-eschatology/msg212771/?topicseen#msg212771
I cut and pasted this, what do you think :Chinscratch:
"The Father and Jesus Christ existed from the beginning and always will exist. It is Their plan and desire to add to Their kind— "bringing many sons to glory" (Hebrews 2:10). Just as all life was made to reproduce after its own kind as stated throughout Genesis 1, so God patterned man after the God kind. This is the ultimate meaning of Genesis 1:26, where God says, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
This is a two-stage process. First, God made mankind physical, of the dust of the earth. Then, through conversion and faith in Christ and obedience to God's spiritual law of love, each person becomes spiritually a "new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24). This leads to the final birth of new children into the divine family, who are then "like" Christ, Himself the first born Son of God (Romans 8:29; Galatians 4:19; 1 John 3:2).
Indeed, just as human children are the same kind of beings as their parents (that is, human beings), so will God's children be the same kind of beings as the Father and Christ (that is, divine beings). This is the awesome destiny of mankind! The God family will expand through God's wonderful plan as revealed in His Word.
All children of this family—including Jesus Christ, who has always been with the One whom He revealed as "the Father" (John 1:18; Matthew 11:27)—will forever in the future willingly be under the ultimate sovereignty and leadership of the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28). Led by the Father and Jesus Christ, the members of this divine family will share a glorious and righteous future into eternity.
This, then, is the sense in which God is a family—indeed a growing family, presently comprising two divine Beings, the Father and Jesus Christ the firstborn, yet ultimately to be joined by a vast multitude of others."
Love creates.
God is love. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: 1 Larry H on December 17, 2018, 07:12:20 PM
I cut and pasted this, what do you think :Chinscratch:
"The Father and Jesus Christ existed from the beginning and always will exist. It is Their plan and desire to add to Their kind— "bringing many sons to glory" (Hebrews 2:10). Just as all life was made to reproduce after its own kind as stated throughout Genesis 1, so God patterned man after the God kind. This is the ultimate meaning of Genesis 1:26, where God says, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
This is a two-stage process. First, God made mankind physical, of the dust of the earth. Then, through conversion and faith in Christ and obedience to God's spiritual law of love, each person becomes spiritually a "new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24). This leads to the final birth of new children into the divine family, who are then "like" Christ, Himself the first born Son of God (Romans 8:29; Galatians 4:19; 1 John 3:2).
Indeed, just as human children are the same kind of beings as their parents (that is, human beings), so will God's children be the same kind of beings as the Father and Christ (that is, divine beings). This is the awesome destiny of mankind! The God family will expand through God's wonderful plan as revealed in His Word.
All children of this family—including Jesus Christ, who has always been with the One whom He revealed as "the Father" (John 1:18; Matthew 11:27)—will forever in the future willingly be under the ultimate sovereignty and leadership of the Father (1 Corinthians 15:28). Led by the Father and Jesus Christ, the members of this divine family will share a glorious and righteous future into eternity.
This, then, is the sense in which God is a family—indeed a growing family, presently comprising two divine Beings, the Father and Jesus Christ the firstborn, yet ultimately to be joined by a vast multitude of others."
That sounds perfect to me! I read somewhere not too long ago (in this thread?) that Jesus is the prototype.. I think there has to be something to that!