Lamb without blemish

[Molly]

That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.

The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.

I'm no longer sure of that......
Jesus ascended 30 (?) days later.

Touch can also be translated as "cling".
That would mean touching was ok but He simply said "know that I will leave you again (soon) so don't get to hopeful"

How do you know he only ascended 30 days later?

I think he ascended right after he says that to her.

I think that is when we see that whole scene in Revelation.



Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.  John 20:17

[WhiteWings]

Hello Molly,  Welcome to this discussion.

He was without sin.  You're right.   That makes Him without blemish.  But how?

Remember how He was forsaken because He was made sin?  If He died in that condition what made Him without sin at the time of His givingup His life?

"Forsaken" is just one of the possible translations. Unlogical I would think because God won't forsake someone who lived such a perfect life.

Other possible translations are:
- this was/is my purpose
- this is what I lived for

But that doesn't fit so well with the parallel verse Psalms 22:1

[rosered]

 

  Alot of prophecy being fulfilled


My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?  Why are You so far from helping Me, and from the words of My groaning?  O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear, and in the night season, and am not silent." (Psalm 22:1-2)

"Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land.  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'" (Matthew 27:45-46)



        from 12 noon to 3 we saw darkness in the Land

   , did the Light  come  when the earthquake  shook the earth  and the veil was torn  from top to bottom  and His flesh entered into the holy of holies
  again two realms of thought darkness/ temporary  and Light  /eternal
  the earthly and than the heavenly

[rosered]

Why light? and that in connection with the hardest time Jesus had on the cross having been three hours abandoned by His Father?

Rosered and Molly
I appreciate your interest and your patience.  There are, as you said, many translations and they are all different.  But among many councellors there is wisdom.  When you study Is.53, especially verse 11 you will find differences in translations.  Many differences.  Think of the grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich in verse 9.   Think of 'alloting him a portion with the great' when everything is for Him

The best translation of Isaiah 53:11 that I found so far is from a semitic translation and reads thus, word for word:

After his suffering he shall see light and be satisfied by its appearing, for the Just One justifies his servant in the presence of many, because their sins he was bearing.

There are some things that make you wonder how they were accepted as truth in theology without question.  Read Romans 5:8-9 to see the process of salvation.  Then ask yourself when was justification was achieved and conciliation opened for mankind

   I believe Jesus knew all along  this was going to happen to Him ,  He knows everything all the time   we just have to discover  this  within      :icon_flower:   thanks will look into the semitic translations     :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

That's why he says, Don't touch me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet.

The [slain] Lamb has to be presented to God by the High Priest.

I'm no longer sure of that......
Jesus ascended 30 (?) days later.

Touch can also be translated as "cling".
That would mean touching was ok but He simply said "know that I will leave you again (soon) so don't get to hopeful"

How do you know he only ascended 30 days later?

I think he ascended right after he says that to her.

I think that is when we see that whole scene in Revelation.

I wrote 30, but perhaps it's 40. That said I think there is a parallel with the Jews crossing the Jordan.

Moses died.
30 days of mourning ended on Nisan 1st.
10 days of preparing.
Crossing the Jordan on Nisan 10th

Nisan 10-14 is the period of selecting the lambs.
It was also the time of His triumphal entry (10th)

Acts 1:2-3,9
until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen. To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
[...]
And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 

40 days ---> 40 years

:dontknow:

[rosered]

  Hey  thats some  good correlation there WW !  :HeartThrob:

[Beloved Servant]

Beloved Servant, I am sorry that you feel that I am beating around the bush and candy coating it.  This topic was posted and discussed in the old forum and was accepted by all who read it.  Believe that it's sosmething new and does good to the soul.  Be convinced about the light aspect I mentioned and then you'll have a base to understand it better.

Why light? and that in connection with the hardest time Jesus had on the cross having been three hours abandoned by His Father?

Rosered and Molly
I appreciate your interest and your patience.  There are, as you said, many translations and they are all different.  But among many councellors there is wisdom.  When you study Is.53, especially verse 11 you will find differences in translations.  Many differences.  Think of the grave with the wicked and his tomb with the rich in verse 9.   Think of 'alloting him a portion with the great' when everything is for Him

The best translation of Isaiah 53:11 that I found so far is from a semitic translation and reads thus, word for word:

After his suffering he shall see light and be satisfied by its appearing, for the Just One justifies his servant in the presence of many, because their sins he was bearing.

There are some things that make you wonder how they were accepted as truth in theology without question.  Read Romans 5:8-9 to see the process of salvation.  Then ask yourself when was justification was achieved and conciliation opened for mankind.

White wings  Thanks, nice chart. I am not saying that the darkness was until the ninth hour but Matthew an Mark are saying it while Luke is saying that it was dark at His death.  Would the light be prophesied for nothing?

You needn't be apologetic.
And, I don't "feel" anything towards you.

I am just clueless as to exactly what you're talking about
and asking you to spell it out in a concise and easy to understand way.

Would it be too much to ask you to put it in one post so that it may be digested wholly
instead of small bits scattered throughout a long thread?

Thanks!

[WhiteWings]

  Hey  thats some  good correlation there WW !  :HeartThrob:

I hope Sheila reads this because she wrote something about it.
Unfortunately I only remember it was one of these things
- 50-10=40 (pentecost - 10)
- 40 -10

[WhiteWings]

Another correlation.
A very weak correlation but perhaps someone can take the The ark landed on the :soccer: and play with it :winkgrin:
Genesis 8:4  and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
==> Jesus resurrected on the same day.

[leli]

Reading the responses to "Lamb Without Blemish" showed that there is an interest in souch topic and encouraged me, before I sleep, to talk further on this.  Thanks to all who responded.  I could not keep up with you all.  But thanks.

I know that I shall be bombarded with questions and ridiculed for what I am writing.  When the jigsaw is completed you will understand some facts more clearly and will have a picture of the process of salvation (Rom.5:9-10, Justification, Reconciliation and Salvation) as never before.  I do expect more comments calling it a very weak correlation.  But that all right.  I'm more interested in those who follow the trend till all which needs to be said is written.

Now think of this scenario.  We all know the general, traditional story of the crucifixion.  Jesus was crucified; He uttered words to His Father, then to His mother and after to the thief on the cross.  From the sixth hour unto the ninth hour darkness fell upon the land.  At the ninth hour the (in)famous words of "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" are said to have been uttered by Jesus and the darkness ceased.  After that we read that He uttered three other words: "I thirst; It is finished; Father into thy hands I commend my Spirit."  After three days He was resurrected.  Luke informs us that it became dark again at the time of His death.

If that is all there is then we have Jesus dying while still forsaken, while still burdened with our sins.  Jesus was made to be sin (2 Cor. 5:21.) and since the Father of righteousness cannot be the Father of sin at the same time He had to forsake Him.  But did Jesus die in that condition, as sin?

We have to admit that if Jesus was left forsaken till death then it is like saying that He died in His sins.  Could that be true?  Because they do not see a solution some say that He carried our sins with Him to the tomb and was resurrected without them, getting rid of them by leaving them behind.  This is very contradictory because if that could be applied to Jesus it could be applied to us; we would die in our sins and resurrect without them.  But in such a case the crucifixion would have been in vain.  Why would Jesus have to suffer to cleanse us of our own sins when our sins could be left behind in the grave and we can appear before God without them?

We know from 1Cor. 5:7 that
" Christ our passover is sacrificed for us"
 
We also know from Ex 12:5, speaking of the Passover lamb that
"Your lamb shall be without blemish".

From the above we can deduct that Christ, being our Passover, had to be without blemish at the time He was sacrificed on the cross.  But was He without blemish at the time of His death, after being abandoned by His Father for carrying our sins, as we generally know it?
Would God offer Himself a tainted sacrifice?

Thank you all for your attention and your time.

[rosered]

Thanks Leli ,
   I am simple minded  and understand  this much ....  :icon_flower:

   Jesus knew on sin , who carried   that sin  for us ...   while were were yet sinners Christ died for us ...
    this ONE time   open show   was enough   for God to accept us as we also accept His Son Jesus , as  the perfect sacrifice   for all times  and ages 

  being free from sin , how has made us new creatures in Christ , or His  , bought and paid for with a price   ..   :HeartThrob:

   is this close ?  :msealed: