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Matthew 16:18


15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
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This verse is the epicenter of much debate.

The Roman Catholic church uses it as a justification for the Pope.

Some say the 'rock' is Peter. Others say that the 'rock' is what Peter had said.

If it is believed that the word for rock in the verse refers to Peter, many say that the original text calls Peter a pebble, that the true rock refers to Jesus.

If pushed for an answer, I would say that that I would write it like this:

You are correct, Peter, in saying that I am the promised Messiah, and what you have said will be the cornerstone for generations to come. I will pass the baton to you, now, and you to the others, that what my words have said, shall be interpreted for years to come, as circumstances change. You will return to the truth of my word, and explain how our lives should be lived out, in faith and truth and light. You will have the understanding and enlightment to understand what I have told you, and will guard my word from false prophets and being corrupted.

I am not sure about the bound on earth as in heaven, and loosed on earth as in heaven part. It could mean that God will acknowledge that the guardians of the faith have done the best they could to interpret the scriptures, and He will take that into consideration, regarding what people believe and accept as the Gospel, and O.T. and N.T. Which actually would have implications for those who still believe in Hell. And, for us, who are going against the stream, because of our alligence to trying to find the truth.  Perhaps that God will regard what we have been taught, and not fault us for accepting some things which might be false or apart from the mainstream, as we are doing our best to understand and/or to learn from others who understand scriptures.

Not sure. Help me out here, everyone.

Anyway. I don't know if I have been of any help or not, but that was 'my best shot'. A tricky verse to understand, for sure, says me.

D.                          :Chinscratch:

Jesus has the same keys. It's not all resting on Peter.

  I believe you  have  said well   Dandelion   ... :thumbsup:

Quote from: anti_nietzsche on September 10, 2016, 07:54:21 PM
Jesus has the same keys. It's not all resting on Peter.

Amen  , only Jesus can keep  those  locked  out  and  also unlock    open heaven  for us,  this to me is the judgment seat of Christ   and showing the sure mercies of David ,  the promise  thru  David by the Father and the  bloodline  that Jesus would   come though , many of the Jews called Him the Son of David ,   knowing the Mercy of God had come as prophecy  being fulfilled .

  His point being unless you  pass  the test  better than the  pharisees,  you will in no wise enter the Kingdom of God  , and the tax collectors and harlots will enter before you 
  there is a scripture in the Isaiah    and Revelation that say the same  thing          that no man can lock  nor open and Only Jesus can   do  this for us   as He also opens the seals of the Book for   anyone He chooses  to do so.


21And I will clothe him with your tunic And tie your sash securely about him. I will entrust him with your authority, And he will become a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

22"Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder, When he opens no one will shut, When he shuts no one will open. 23"I will drive him like a peg in a firm place, And he will become a throne of glory to his father's house....

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on the earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Revelation 3:7
To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.

  Hope this helps  Chester as well   as it has  me  when looking for answers  , God bless you all  in Christ

Some info on the Greek here.

It says "I also moreover say that you are Peter (Petros) and on this rock (petra) I shall build my church."

According to Strongs:

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder" (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a "solid or native rock, rising up through the earth" (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

-----

What it seems to me is that Jesus is making a play on words. Peter means a DETACHED rock, whereas Jesus will build his church on a massive collection of rock that rises up out of the earth and is connected to the earth. A projection up from the earth, rather than a lone rock disconnected from it. Possible meaning is that Jesus will build his church on a collective foundation of believers who have come, not only to the same conclusion Peter did, but also in the same way, as revelation from God, not their own efforts.

the rock that the 'church' is built on is the revelation of the Father of His son........flesh and blood did not reveal it unto you..but the Father


   he who has the son has the Father..and he who has the Father has the son.

    the revelation rock..of who the Father is,who the son is and who the sons of God are........

   

 

So what does this mean then?

Matthew 16:18


"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Quote from: chester-blowfold on September 11, 2016, 04:01:46 AM
So what does this mean then?

Matthew 16:18


"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

  You know  Chester ,  dont be  shy !   

What do you think it means ?

You can look and see if the gates of hell /  hades  , this is the voices  that speak against  the true  Jesus Christ they will not win

  The old   age was left  desolate  without one stone left upon another  every one went their own way  ...and the beginning of birth pains,   He was going to begin the   reign   and bring in the age  of grace   another prophecy fulfilled  in Jesus Christ  from the old .
Zech  4 The Gold Lampstand
...6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. 7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"

   The same  mountain to be removed  with the faith of a mustard seed another prophecy   made known ..  all of Jesus testimony is prophecy fulfilling the   Law and prophets   , BY GODS WORD /Jesus Christ and His SPIRIT ..ALL GLORY IS  GODS ..

Temple Destruction Foretold  Matt 24
(Mark 13:1-9; Luke 21:5-9)
1As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" He replied. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be toppled."

Signs of the End of the Age
3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will all this happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered, "See to it that no one deceives you.

5For many will come in My name, claiming, 'I am the Christ/ anointed one ,' and will deceive many.

6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come.

7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

The new   true church /body of Christ     is being   built as each  is   white  stone    with a new name inscribed  is added    from Simon , whom hears    to Peter  little stone   ,  Saul to Paul  I find it  awesome that Adam names  the creatures   in the  world and Jesus gives new  names to His  new creatures in Christ  in Gods kingdom .

So what do you think  this all means Chester ? 

Well to my simplistic mind it's Jesus telling Peter he's going to be the leader of God's church once Jesus has departed.

Jesus said he would build his church on a "petra" not a petros (Peter's name).

Seth, so what was the writings I posted all about?

My view is that the "gates of hell(hades/sheol)" will not prevail against the ecclesia(community/assembly of believers)". In other words, we will kick in the gates of sheol and set the captives free.

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it says:

"When he ascended on high,
    he took many captives
    and gave gifts to his people."

9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Jesus descended to the lowest lows so that He could ascend to the highest heavens with the keys to hell and death. He has given those who are His disciples those very same keys, and we through the gospel of Jesus are leading the captives into liberty.

"For freedom Christ has set you free. Why then would you submit to the yoke of bondage?"

""If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

For I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Quote from: chester-blowfold on September 11, 2016, 11:26:32 PM
Seth, so what was the writings I posted all about?

My reply #4 has my understanding of why there are two words. Jesus literally does not say he will build his church on Peter. Peter's name was not Petra.

Quote from: Seth on September 12, 2016, 12:44:54 AM

Quote from: chester-blowfold on September 11, 2016, 11:26:32 PM
Seth, so what was the writings I posted all about?

My reply #4 has my understanding of why there are two words. Jesus literally does not say he will build his church on Peter. Peter's name was not Petra.

It's taken from the King James version, so just another biblical miss translation?

I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistranslation but more of a nuance. As a translator I would have included the nuance to make it more clear because Petros and Petra are both made of rock but not the same structure or exactly the same thing.

Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2016, 12:37:06 AM
Some info on the Greek here.

It says "I also moreover say that you are Peter (Petros) and on this rock (petra) I shall build my church."

According to Strongs:

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder"

Quote from: eaglesway on September 11, 2016, 11:55:37 PM
My view is that the "gates of hell(hades/sheol)" will not prevail against the ecclesia(community/assembly of believers)"..

Amen, to the above.. but I also think it may refer to Peter's giving that first opening 'sermon' on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit came and alighted upon each of the believers.. As we know "Jesus is the cornerstone"/foundation/capstone/building block/prototype..

Quote from: marie glen on September 13, 2016, 09:57:34 PM

Quote from: Seth on September 11, 2016, 12:37:06 AM
Some info on the Greek here.

It says "I also moreover say that you are Peter (Petros) and on this rock (petra) I shall build my church."

According to Strongs:

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – "a mass of connected rock," which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is "a detached stone or boulder"

Quote from: eaglesway on September 11, 2016, 11:55:37 PM
My view is that the "gates of hell(hades/sheol)" will not prevail against the ecclesia(community/assembly of believers)"..

Amen, to the above.. but I also think it may refer to Peter's giving that first opening 'sermon' on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit came and alighted upon each of the believers.. As we know "Jesus is the cornerstone"/foundation/capstone/building block/prototype..

  Amen   Marie !!  ,     I do believe that was the time the    HOLY SPIRIT    being poured out on all flesh  ,  as a witness , just as  prophesied  long ago  by Joel and   in   JESUS CHRIST  would come that fulfilling .

Peter Preaches to the Crowd
...16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17'- In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people;

your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.


18Even on My servants, both men and women, I will pour out My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy....

  The testimony of Jesus Christ is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY........    worship  the true and living  God  .....

  rev 19 Young's Literal Translation


and I fell before his feet, to bow before him, and he saith to me, 'See -- not!

fellow servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren,

those having the testimony of Jesus;


bow before God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.'     :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2016, 03:38:26 AM
the rock that the 'church' is built on is the revelation of the Father of His son........flesh and blood did not reveal it unto you..but the Father


   he who has the son has the Father..and he who has the Father has the son.

    the revelation rock..of who the Father is,who the son is and who the sons of God are........

   

:dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on September 13, 2016, 10:20:30 PM

Quote from: sheila on September 11, 2016, 03:38:26 AM
the rock that the 'church' is built on is the revelation of the Father of His son........flesh and blood did not reveal it unto you..but the Father


   he who has the son has the Father..and he who has the Father has the son.

    the revelation rock..of who the Father is,who the son is and who the sons of God are........

   

:dsunny:

  :thumbsup: :iagree: :HeartThrob:  AMEN !!

Abuse of KJV trying to bring out what several others have indicated...

Quote from: nobody
Mat 16

v13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

v14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

v15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

v16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

v17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven,

(v18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art a stone... But upon that boulder I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Quote from: kjv
Mat 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'eternal loss'...so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.

Quote from: ps on September 14, 2016, 02:41:25 AM
Abuse of KJV trying to bring out what several others have indicated...

Quote from: nobody
Mat 16

v13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

v14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

v15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

v16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

v17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven,

(v18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art a stone... But upon that boulder I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Quote from: kjv
Mat 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1 Pe 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

  I do not believe   that anyone can understand the Wisdom of God   with the carnal mind , and being human , we have that  disadvantage .

  But I do believe   these very scriptures are showing  a substance   of  faith   given  by the Father being  one of   the many good gifts   of the  Holy Spirit 

Peter was that example   in Matt  16  , but we also have  another example  in John 3  Jesus testimony and witness[ as the Spirit of prophecy , a foretelling of what is happening  ] is  explaining to Nicodemus   How one is born again of the Holy Spirit  and these are very enlightening to us to learn of HIM  and how to receive  by faith    His  instructions . 


These are able to   BEGIN  /making new  from the old ,   to use the spiritual mind of Christ  whom knows the FATHER perfectly   as the Father  adds the increase  of spiritual growth   of truth and  grace  .

  1Cor 2 Wisdom from the Spirit of God


6And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age — of those becoming useless

, 7but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,


8which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;



9but, according as it hath been written, 'What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him —'

10but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,


11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him?

so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.


12And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God,

that we may know the things conferred by God on us,


13which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom,


but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;


15and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned; 16for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we — we have the mind of Christ.

This    being   the  rock solid truth is the Revelation of Jesus Christ testimony and witness   we are to build upon    and nothing else  will be able to stand against   the gates of  hades    [ death ] to be carnally minded is death  and they  cannot build with that wisdom ,  it  is   the false image    and  is set to fail every time  one builds upon it ...  this is just my own thoughts  about it  in my own words   as I understand it now .

  God bless  and keep you and all  here Today ..

Quote from: darryl on September 14, 2016, 03:25:24 AM

altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'eternal loss'...so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.

Can you explain more?

ps, what does this mean?

Abuse of KJV trying to bring out what several others have indicated...

Quote from: chester-blowfold on September 15, 2016, 02:05:20 PM

Quote from: darryl on September 14, 2016, 03:25:24 AM

altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'eternal loss'...so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.

Can you explain more?

Jesus spoke of gaining the world but losing one's soul...maybe one can lose part of one's self somehow...be ultimately saved, yes...but still suffer loss of ones...ermmmm...soul.The loss of what one has idolized, maybe.Sorry, cant do better at the moment..need to pray on this.BTW, Jesus never spoke of losing one's spirit, only one's soul (I believe man is triune nature, body soul and spirit) .