So, this is my welcome post. I'm an atheist, but I've been looking into various religions (especially Christianity) for many years. However, I can never seem to get past the stumbling block of Hell (I cannot bear the thought of Hell, and I cannot conceive of a God who could justifiably be called good and still allow hell). So, I'm looking into Christian Universalism to see how I fair with that. So far, I've found this website's content to be more comforting and uplifting than any other Christian doctrine that I've ever encountered. :cloud9:
Anyway, hi!
:cloud9: Welcome.......this place is a banquet and there is something here for everyone. Pull up a chair and dine with us. :thumbsup: Blessings....
:icon_flower:
Hi
Welcome to Tent, Hang around some and maybe youll come to see an alternative perspective to whats Commonly taught throughout the churches
:icon_flower:
HI and welcome.
These videos are a great starting point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dpCAc9RkE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMnD4zmLWdM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S72QdTugdOQ
Hi there...
I'm glad you're here.
Welcome! :HeartThrob:
Welcome DS to the Tentmakers forum ,,looking forward to your posts ...
:HeartThrob: rose
Hi TDS,
I'm a bit confused by your post.
As you mentioned there are various views on hell and love; but what does that matter to you as an atheist?
If God doesn't exist then God isn't not love, not hate, just nothing because He doesn't exist.
So are you really 100% atheist? Or lets say 95% atheist and you look in to religion with the 5% there-must-be-a-creator part of you?
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2009, 07:00:24 PM
Hi TDS,
I'm a bit confused by your post.
As you mentioned there are various views on hell and love; but what does that matter to you as an atheist?
If God doesn't exist then God isn't not love, not hate, just nothing because He doesn't exist.
So are you really 100% atheist? Or lets say 95% atheist and you look in to religion with the 5% there-must-be-a-creator part of you?
I'm not sure if this is the correct place to be talking about this, but I'll do it anyway until someone bops me on the head.
I'm not sure how to explain what I am. I certainly don't believe there must be a creator. Not even 5% of me believes that. That being said, I also don't entirely rule out a creator (as in, I believe it isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility that there might be a creator).
However, I believe with 100% of my being that any entity that can be described as even remotely good cannot coexist as a creator/maintainer/whatever of Hell as most modern day Christians describe it. Although I'm fuzzy when it comes to spirituality, I am not even slightly fuzzy about this. To me, hell as it upheld by most modern day Christians is the embodiment of evil. It is abhorrent and repulsive and unacceptable. The mere
idea of it upsets me.
I hope that helps.
hi darkshard and welcome
just the fact that you are searching,proves on some level there is more going on then meets the eye.
blessings on your quest :icon_king:
Quote from: TheDarkShard on October 17, 2009, 04:57:57 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2009, 07:00:24 PM
Hi TDS,
I'm a bit confused by your post.
As you mentioned there are various views on hell and love; but what does that matter to you as an atheist?
If God doesn't exist then God isn't not love, not hate, just nothing because He doesn't exist.
So are you really 100% atheist? Or lets say 95% atheist and you look in to religion with the 5% there-must-be-a-creator part of you?
I'm not sure how to explain what I am. I certainly don't believe there must be a creator. Not even 5% of me believes that. That being said, I also don't entirely rule out a creator (as in, I believe it isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility that there might be a creator).
Let me see if I understood that.
It's possible that God exists but until you have (more) proof of that you don't believe?
So there can be a creator?
QuoteHowever, I believe with 100% of my being that any entity that can be described as even remotely good cannot coexist as a creator/maintainer/whatever of Hell as most modern day Christians describe it. Although I'm fuzzy when it comes to spirituality, I am not even slightly fuzzy about this. To me, hell as it upheld by most modern day Christians is the embodiment of evil. It is abhorrent and repulsive and unacceptable. The mere idea of it upsets me.
The people on this forum will agree with you that endless torture can't be good in any way.
But I want to add that hating ones personality doesn't make that person go away.
Basicly I still have same question as before...
You find a torturing God repulsive. I can very well accept that (as many other on this forum)
But why do you care what those insane Christians think about something that doesn't exist?
Would also join a forum that discusses pink flying elephants?
I'm not trying to convert to convert you TDS. I first have to convert myself because I'm (still) largely atheist. Maybe you and I are not that different. I would describe myself a year ago as someone that is 95% atheist and 5% possibility of a creator. I endend up here because when I looked into it science is missing a lot of answers. What I am now I don't know. I'm still not able to pray. But I would say the 5% has grown. Partly because the socalled contradictions in the Bible aren't there at all. I still believe in a 14.7 biljon year old universe. I believe in evolution (not Darwin style). I even believe the earth is not flat :winkgrin:
And none of that contradicts the Bible IMO
Like your post, WW. Hang in there, buddy.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2009, 10:20:20 AMLet me see if I understood that.
It's possible that God exists but until you have (more) proof of that you don't believe?
So there can be a creator?
I think that's pretty accurate.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2009, 10:20:20 AMThe people on this forum will agree with you that endless torture can't be good in any way.
But I want to add that hating ones personality doesn't make that person go away.
Yep. But I don't think God can't exist because he is evil. I think he couldn't exist as Christians portray him (i.e. be all good and create/maintain/support hell). I'm not implying that you said I said this (wow, that's kind of an awkward sentence. I think it's just a reference point to what you ask next, but I just want to make this clear.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2009, 10:20:20 AMBasicly I still have same question as before...
You find a torturing God repulsive. I can very well accept that (as many other on this forum)
But why do you care what those insane Christians think about something that doesn't exist?
Would also join a forum that discusses pink flying elephants?
I care because religion is a powerful motivator for humans. It disconcerts me when people I know think it is entirely moral for me to be tortured for the rest of forever because I'm not saved. I might very well join a forum that discussed flying pink elephants if the belief in flying pink elephants was likely to have an influence on my life.
Perhaps more importantly (as it is the main reason I joined this forum), I care because there might be a creator, and if there is, I want to know him/her/it as well as I can. I want to understand what makes people believe in a deity, and I want to see what makes them ascribe certain characteristics to this deity. I want to examine those reasons and see if they make sense to me.
Does that help more?
Quote from: TheDarkShard on October 17, 2009, 12:33:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2009, 10:20:20 AMThe people on this forum will agree with you that endless torture can't be good in any way.
But I want to add that hating ones personality doesn't make that person go away.
Yep. But I don't think God can't exist because he is evil. I think he couldn't exist as Christians portray him (i.e. be all good and create/maintain/support hell).
If it is possible that a loving God exists then
for me personally a sadistic God can also exist.
I admit I have doubts when a loving God allows the mess on this planet to happen.
OTOH I think a sadistic God from mainstream Christianity wouldn't send His Son (Jesus) etc.
Such a God will rule with an iron fist. So IMO both can exist but there is less proof of an extremely sadistic God.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2009, 10:20:20 AMBasicly I still have same question as before...
You find a torturing God repulsive. I can very well accept that (as many other on this forum)
But why do you care what those insane Christians think about something that doesn't exist?
Would also join a forum that discusses pink flying elephants?
I care because religion is a powerful motivator for humans. It disconcerts me when people I know think it is entirely moral for me to be tortured for the rest of forever because I'm not saved.
Then you have met the mild variant. Some claim the saved are going to watch you being tortured for fun. It gives even more glory to the saved and makes God even more loving.
As you are probably aware the Bible isn't written in English. A lot went wrong during translation. Some things accidently. Some because of political bias. Some things because of other religions.
Just a short list with the important ones.
- Eternal is not in the Bible (so eternal torture isn't either)
- The original meaning of hell is very different from now. (hell = covered, out of sight. Grave,...)
- Torture=torment= let's call it teaching
QuotePerhaps more importantly (as it is the main reason I joined this forum), I care because there might be a creator, and if there is, I want to know him/her/it as well as I can.
Just ask. Critical questions are allowed here (I asked many). The most impont rule here is to show repect for both God and fellow forum members.
Once you understand the odd writing style of the Bible you start to think:
If this is a fairy tale that written by a bunch of nomads then they did a unbelieveble job maintaining concistancy of all those years. Plus all seems to be correct as far as it can be verified against secular history. That sorta things do much more for me than "because the pope said so"
QuoteDoes that help more?
It's even more clear now. Our thoughts are not that different.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 17, 2009, 10:20:20 AM
Quote from: TheDarkShard on October 17, 2009, 04:57:57 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 12, 2009, 07:00:24 PM
Hi TDS,
I'm a bit confused by your post.
As you mentioned there are various views on hell and love; but what does that matter to you as an atheist?
If God doesn't exist then God isn't not love, not hate, just nothing because He doesn't exist.
So are you really 100% atheist? Or lets say 95% atheist and you look in to religion with the 5% there-must-be-a-creator part of you?
I'm not sure how to explain what I am. I certainly don't believe there must be a creator. Not even 5% of me believes that. That being said, I also don't entirely rule out a creator (as in, I believe it isn't entirely outside the realm of possibility that there might be a creator).
Let me see if I understood that.
It's possible that God exists but until you have (more) proof of that you don't believe?
So there can be a creator?
QuoteHowever, I believe with 100% of my being that any entity that can be described as even remotely good cannot coexist as a creator/maintainer/whatever of Hell as most modern day Christians describe it. Although I'm fuzzy when it comes to spirituality, I am not even slightly fuzzy about this. To me, hell as it upheld by most modern day Christians is the embodiment of evil. It is abhorrent and repulsive and unacceptable. The mere idea of it upsets me.
The people on this forum will agree with you that endless torture can't be good in any way.
But I want to add that hating ones personality doesn't make that person go away.
Basicly I still have same question as before...
You find a torturing God repulsive. I can very well accept that (as many other on this forum)
But why do you care what those insane Christians think about something that doesn't exist?
Would also join a forum that discusses pink flying elephants?
I'm not trying to convert to convert you TDS. I first have to convert myself because I'm (still) largely atheist. Maybe you and I are not that different. I would describe myself a year ago as someone that is 95% atheist and 5% possibility of a creator. I endend up here because when I looked into it science is missing a lot of answers. What I am now I don't know. I'm still not able to pray. But I would say the 5% has grown. Partly because the socalled contradictions in the Bible aren't there at all. I still believe in a 14.7 biljon year old universe. I believe in evolution (not Darwin style). I even believe the earth is not flat :winkgrin:
And none of that contradicts the Bible IMO
Cool post WW. Very honest, I might feel the same way as you sometimes too!
Hi Darkshed,
Welcome! I appreciate your honest and open attitude. If you keep searching for the truth, you will find it, eventually. That I am 100% sure of.
You are completely right about any sort of place of eternal punishment/torment/torture being completely immoral. And why many people can't see it really is a miracle of sorts. I didn't see it for many years myself - I did believe in hell for 30 years, but it never really sat right with me, and basically I never shared my faith much because of it. But then I discovered Christian Universalism and things started to click.
Actually what turns people off (probably like yourself) are all these faithful believers who think you are going to be tortured forever if you don't do what they say. And of course there are other problems that add doubts... why is there evil in the world? Why would God create Satan? Why doesn't God reveal himself plainly?
Really it is quite simple, if you are willing to throw away everything you thought you knew already. JMHO, here is the big picture:
Imagine there is an all-powerful all-knowing all-loving being: God. God is the very essence of love, so of course He wants to create a giant (infinite perhaps?) family of beings with similar character as Himself. God wants to reproduce Himself.
Now you may ask, well why doesn't He just create a bunch of "mini-me's" ie. God's children, and be done with it? And the answer is: He is. We are in the midst of that process right now.
But why is there evil? Why doesn't He just make us all good to start off with? And the answer is: He is. We are in the process of being made good. In order to learn how to be good, one must experience evil. That's what this earth is for. God is giving us an experience of evil. And its for a really good reason. Its so we will all be made good. Thus the reason for Satan. Satan is the prime adversary, the chief trouble-maker. Yet Satan can only do what God intends.
So why doesn't God plainly reveal this to everyone? Why doesn't God show up as a giant talking head in the sky saying He will save everyone and it will all be good? Well for one reason, that would defeat the purpose of us experiencing evil in this life. In actual fact, He has already effectively done that, through the bible, though many people don't believe it, because it takes some digging to get it out.
There is much evil in this world, of course obvious stuff like wars, rape, murder, floods, disasters, etc. Part of that evil is the mass confusion in this world - Athiests, Christians, other religions, all grasping and claiming they have the truth. Part of this experience of evil is having people believe that God himself will torture billions for eternity. There is probably not a more evil thing you can think of than being eternally tortured forever. But that is not God's intent. It is only God's intent to demonstrate and give us an experience of evil. Imagine that: God intended for most of Christianity to believe that God Himself would torture people for eternity. Yet of course God will do no such thing. God is the savior of all.
So we are here to experience evil. Does that make God evil, because He intends for us to experience evil? No. Some people say it does make God evil, but they are not looking at the big picture. God has the big picture. He sees the end, when we will all be in the perfect image of love. We are meant to have this life of a little joy and alot of suffering, so that we will gain the understanding of what it is to be good. And really what is 80 or 100 years of suffering compared with an eternity of love?
Imagine if God did not give us an experience of evil. We would not have an appreciation of what being good is. Think of all the good character traits and virtures that develop when we are confronted with evil. Things like patience, endurance, loyalty, love, self-sacrifice. How could we learn those things if there was no evil to overcome? We are to overcome evil with good.
To summarize it all up, God is making us in His image of love. Love is patient, kind, humble, selfless, forgiving, trusting, protecting, persevering, and unfailing. Eventually we will be all these things too when God's plan is achieved.
This is the big picture IMHO. Enjoy your stay!
Just another thought to make you think. :Sparkletooth:
We are here to learn love, part of love is being patient. How can one learn patience quickly? It cannot be done.
That is one of the many reasons we are here for 80 or 100 years, suffering, hoping things will get better. Its teaching us to be patient.
What about hope? Hope is a good character trait. Its part of love. How can we learn hope if everything was plainly clear? There would be nothing to hope for. But because God hasn't fully revealed His plan yet, there is much to hope for.
We are learning what Hope and what Patience is.