WEBSITE UPDATE: godslovewins.com...!

[Phillip Macdonald]

WE INVITE YOU TO VISIT OUR NEW WEBSITE!  godslovewins.com !  (Updated, December 2011)
I am new to this forum but not new to UR or to Tentmaker.  I "accidentally" bumped into Tentmaker's site about 6 years ago and began my journey with Christian Universalism which has recently developed into a new website.  A small group of us (we all have pseudonyms at this time) have designed and created yet another safe venue for evangelicals to explore the Greater Hope of the gospel!  My background is more from the Reformed or Calvinistic view so I am speaking primarily to that audience although there is plenty for folks of all denominational backgrounds.  The site includes 150+ questions for examining the church's traditional view of hell and also some various study helps along with songs that profoundly testify of Ultimate Restoration.

Our unique approach has been to reveal how recent evangelical authors appear to be "flirting" with UR without realizing it (!?)  They say things they are not supposed to mean and we are not supposed to believe.  I invite you to read some of their quotes from our "About Us" page.  They are astounding!  There is also an Open Letter to Dr. Tim Keller, a Reformed theologian who is extremely influential among the neo-Calvinists and also the group "The Gospel Coalition" (who strongly opposed Rob Bell).  He is pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian of NYC and has several New York Times bestsellers ...The Reason for God, The Prodigal God (mentioned in Love Wins) as well as others.

I am eager to continue to grow in my understanding of UR as I learn from many of you here!
You can read my story on the site if you are interested.

Grace and peace,
"Phillip"
godslovewins.com

[jabcat]

Phillip, I'm glad to hear about your site.  I will check it out soon, Lord willing.  It sounds like something that's needed!

Blessings, strength, and courage to you.  James.

[jabcat]

The site looks nice and appears well-done.  I'll spend more time perusing it.   :thumbsup:

[Phillip Macdonald]

Thank you James for the reply!  We do hope you get a chance to explore the site more.  We want to continue to add material to balance out the perspective.  As I said before we are coming from a primarily Calvinistic background.  That is not to imply we are dogmatic about certain doctrines but just that the Reformed authors/leaders have shaped much of our thinking. We hope this builds a bridge for the neo-Calvinists who perhaps believe this view is only considered by "liberals" who don't believe the Bible.

It was actually their very overt statements of "restoration and redemption of the entire created order" by these authors/leaders that led us to the brink of UR.  It wasn't difficult for us to take that last step!  Also many evangelicals have been tracking with the "missional" theme of being "blessed to be a blessing" which implies that we are chosen for the rest of the world's benefit not just for our own salvation. And finally the tension between the two "acceptable" camps of evangelicalism--Arminians and Calvinists--is what has exposed a contradiction that can only be settled by the third option of Ultimate Reconciliation.

While there are many excellent books written by Christian Universalists we think it is significant that non-universalist authors are making bold statements far beyond what they are supposed to mean or allowed to embrace. They appear to be creating their own trajectory towards UR! 


I look forward to meeting and interacting with many of you here!

Grace and peace,
"Phillip" and the community of glw

[Molly]

It was actually their very overt statements of "restoration and redemption of the entire created order" by these authors/leaders that led us to the brink of UR

I was wondering if you have an opinion on how Calvin missed this?

When I started reading the Bible, the Calvinistic point of view immediately jumped out at me.

Very early on, I said to myself, my God,  I'm becoming a Calvinist.

But, then when you keep reading and studying, you go beyond that, as you know

But he never did, obviously, and I was wondering if you have any idea --why?

[Phillip Macdonald]

Hi Molly,
How do I suppose Calvin missed this part of the gospel?  I am sure there could be historical and theological reasons that may have shaped his thinking that I have no understanding of but the only thought that comes to me is that usually history repeats. So in this case we must hearken back to and wonder how in fact the Jews missed the Messiah's identity and His message (!) 

I guess I just see it as God's timing in one grand Story where God converges truth upon the world when He sees fit.  God said that He hid things from "the wise and learned" but also said there was a time coming when He will "remove the veil from all faces".

"And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations."  Isaiah 25:7

I believe that this recent activity of making UR statements without qualifying them or believing them is a recent phenomenon among the neo-Calvinists.  Someone who knows more could correct me on this but I don't remember reading anything in Calvin that is equivalent to the things his modern followers are saying/writing about the "restoration of all creation". 



Grace and peace,
"Phillip"

[sheila]

like honouring Him with the lips and heart is far removed...comes to  mind.

[Taffy]

like honouring Him with the lips and heart is far removed...comes to  mind.

sadly yes~

[Molly]

It might be because his focus was only on the election, something which we take for granted because of Calvin, but an idea which until that time had been kept hidden for centuries

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According to T. F. Torrance, "Calvin's main teaching about eschatology can be formulated by saying that eschatology is the application of Christology to the work of the church in history."11

Indeed, Calvin saw all theology Christo-centrically so that this was equally true of his formulation of eschatology. The reason why Calvin did not deal with eschatology as a separate subject in a major treatise appears to be that he saw its relation to the Christian life as permeating the whole of doctrine as the church moves forward in the expectation of the coming again of her Redeemer.

Eschatology necessarily implies purpose in history. The great difference between Christianity and the pagan world is the Christian's view that history is moving progressively forward according to God's final purpose for this world. At the heart of the Christian view of history is the incarnated Christ. His earthly ministry is viewed as the central point in not just religious history, but the history of the world. It is in Christ's work on the cross that the glory of God is most fully revealed. Calvin commented on Jesus' death in John 13:31 saying,

It is, because by it he glorifies God the Father; for in the cross of Christ, as a magnificent theatre, the inestimable goodness of God is displayed before the whole world. In all creatures, indeed, both high and low, the glory of God shines, but nowhere has it shone more brightly than in the cross, in which there has been an astonishing change of things, the condemnation of all men has been manifested, sin has been blotted out, salvation has been restored to men; and, in short, the whole world has been renewed, and everything restored to good order.12

"The advent of Christ, His death and resurrection, was for Calvin the eschatological turning point of world history."13 Every subsequent event can have meaning only with relation to that "renovation of the world; which took place at the advent of Christ."14

Through the death of Christ, more than just the securing of the future renovation of the world took place. Though its final consummation is still to come, Calvin spoke of the kingdom as already restored.15 This restoration is witnessed by its effects upon regenerate men who, through union with the death of Christ, lead lives of self-denial and mortification of concupiscence, which is evidence of the restoral of order.16

But Christ's first coming is inextricably tied to the second coming as the boundaries of the last days. Calvin said, "Besides, we must remember this principle, that from the time when Christ once appeared, there is nothing left for the faithful, but with suspended minds ever to look forward to his second coming."17

The ascended Christ holds together advent and return. Seeking the ascended Christ in heaven may never be separated from an eager anticipation of His return. Since the perfected kingdom is already complete in Him, the Christian is always waiting for the final, visible restoration of all things.18

At the heart of this is the fact of the resurrection of Christ. If Christ has not risen, then there is no basis for us to believe in a future hope and the whole study of eschatology is only vain imagination. But Paul dealt with this very argument in 1 Corinthians 15, upon which Calvin observed that Christ did not die or rise again for himself, but for us: hence his resurrection is the foundation of ours."19

It is the ascended Christ who stands at the center of Calvin's eschatological expounding. As Heidelberg question 49, which teaches that Christ will take all believers up to Himself, so Calvin perceived that it is on the basis of Christ as the first-fruits of the resurrection from the dead that believers draw all hope for a future resurrection of their own flesh.

This emphasis became the pivotal point at which Calvin's eschatology intersected with his view of sanctification. That is why Calvin's eschatology is but an extension of his Christology. And rightly so, for we do not view Christ's work as done with His ascension. He continues to work from His heavenly throne through the power of His Spirit. He works, now obscured from human sight, until the day of judgment when He shall be revealed in His full glory and power.

Calvin appealed to one other central theme flowing from the risen Christ. It was that believers are to be conformed to the image of Christ even in His resurrection. Wallace summarized Calvin's position,

The pattern of our sanctification in Christ to which we are to be conformed is not one of unrelieved suffering and cross-bearing. The whole process of our conformity to Christ in His Cross moves towards the final goal of our being "sanctified with Christ in glory" and of being made conformable to His immortality and glory. . . . In the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, then, we are to see unveiled the pattern of the glory which He will share with those who are united to Him.20

http://reformedherald.org/index.php/component/k2/item/65-calvin%5C's-eschatological-world-and-life-view

[Molly]

Hi Molly,
How do I suppose Calvin missed this part of the gospel?  I am sure there could be historical and theological reasons that may have shaped his thinking that I have no understanding of but the only thought that comes to me is that usually history repeats. So in this case we must hearken back to and wonder how in fact the Jews missed the Messiah's identity and His message (!) 

I guess I just see it as God's timing in one grand Story where God converges truth upon the world when He sees fit.  God said that He hid things from "the wise and learned" but also said there was a time coming when He will "remove the veil from all faces".

I think you might be right, that God is unfolding pieces of his very huge plan to his servants over history--the Law to Moses, justification by faith to Luther, election to Calvin.   These are all very big concepts, each one could take a lifetime of study to understand how each is part of God's plan for man.  The picture just keeps getting bigger and bigger as we stand on the shoulders of giants and can see further than they could.

[sheila]

Good point Molly

   adds balance to my statement :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

   you can't hurry LOVE/GOD.......the pure in heart shall see God

[Phillip Macdonald]

Thank you Molly for that elaboration on Calvin! That's something I am incapable of doing.  I still have all his works but grew weary of him many years ago and gravitated to a more "Cal-Arminianism" (of course no such thing).

Wow, so Calvin made sweeping statements of the restoration as well ("sin has been blotted out, salvation restored to men...whole world renewed") with no immediate qualifications? 

It is, because by it he glorifies God the Father; for in the cross of Christ, as a magnificent theatre, the inestimable goodness of God is displayed before the whole world. In all creatures, indeed, both high and low, the glory of God shines, but nowhere has it shone more brightly than in the cross, in which there has been an astonishing change of things, the condemnation of all men has been manifested, sin has been blotted out, salvation has been restored to men; and, in short, the whole world has been renewed, and everything restored to good order.12

Yes, I really like what you said about each part of the Story having to take time to develop in order for all the pieces to unfold and that Calvin was given the "piece" of election to highlight and unpack for us.  We make the point on the website that we will never dismiss our traditional heritage of theologians for they formed the very foundation of what we believe today as Evangelical Universalists.  We do not see them as fundamentally in error but simply incomplete in their understanding and scope of the gospel.
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Indeed Sheila, God's ways are all loving and His waiting and timing in all this will surely prove to be an expression of His perfect love for all mankind!

Thank you for the encouraging and stimulating dialogue...

grace and peace,
'Phillip"
godslovewins.com

[Eduard]

From what I've read until now I think it's a great UR website, very good material!

[jabcat]

Thank you James for the reply!  We do hope you get a chance to explore the site more.  We want to continue to add material to balance out the perspective.  As I said before we are coming from a primarily Calvinistic background.  That is not to imply we are dogmatic about certain doctrines but just that the Reformed authors/leaders have shaped much of our thinking. We hope this builds a bridge for the neo-Calvinists who perhaps believe this view is only considered by "liberals" who don't believe the Bible.

We all have our influences, AND our own "angle" from which we can minister - and even best to which "group".  All the parts of the body functioning as it was meant to do.  You will probably be heard by people and be able to reach them, that some of the rest of us could not.  God is leading us according to His purposes.  He'll let you know in what direction(s) He wants you to go.  Blessings.

[Molly]

Wow, so Calvin made sweeping statements of the restoration as well ("sin has been blotted out, salvation restored to men...whole world renewed") with no immediate qualifications?

I thought you would like that.  :bigGrin:

It"s an interesting thing you've discovered, about how the mouth speaks the truth even if the head doesn't acknowledge it.

[CHB]

I cannot tell you how freeing it is to hear and absorb the truth that God has had one and one plan only for me from the foundation of the world: to rescue me from my sin, conquer death, and to work out all things for my good. To finally see that all fiery trials and discipline are redemptive and that He will someday reconcile "all things to Himself" is beyond words for me to express. I do not have to be terrorized by the fear of my own eternal damnation nor that of my loved ones and friends. They are God's and He is love and love never fails. But I pray for them and look to share with them this same good news along with the warnings of our Creator, the very "grain of the universe." Colliding with Him is "not safe, ...but it's good". Going against love Himself is a fearful thing for "love is an unquenchable fire". So "on account of the fear of the Lord we persuade men." The good news is that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself...therefore [you] be reconciled to God." (2 Cor. 5:19) [end of quote]



Above is a quote from Phillip's story on this website and I have to say this pretty much is how I felt after learning about the salvation of all.

I have wondered why there isn't more people who are outspoken on the salvation of all? Don't we want everyone to know what we know? How come there isn't someone on TV who is proclaiming this good news? Didn't Paul say we were given the ministry of reconciliation? Are we not ambassadors for Christ? Or was that only for Paul's day? Why aren't we shouting this from the roof tops? We are just as bad as the mainstream religions of the world. They think everyone is going to burn in hell forever and don't do much to proclaim it. We know they are not, yet we don't do much of anything to proclaim it. 

Anyway, sometimes I fell like a kid who knows everyone has won the lottery and yet I watch everyone starve, suffer, let them believe they will remain poor and miserable and don't say a word to comfort them.

I know it is all in his hands, so, God help us all.

CHB

[shawn]

I cannot tell you how freeing it is to hear and absorb the truth that God has had one and one plan only for me from the foundation of the world: to rescue me from my sin, conquer death, and to work out all things for my good. To finally see that all fiery trials and discipline are redemptive and that He will someday reconcile "all things to Himself" is beyond words for me to express. I do not have to be terrorized by the fear of my own eternal damnation nor that of my loved ones and friends. They are God's and He is love and love never fails. But I pray for them and look to share with them this same good news along with the warnings of our Creator, the very "grain of the universe." Colliding with Him is "not safe, ...but it's good". Going against love Himself is a fearful thing for "love is an unquenchable fire". So "on account of the fear of the Lord we persuade men." The good news is that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself...therefore [you] be reconciled to God." (2 Cor. 5:19) [end of quote]



Above is a quote from Phillip's story on this website and I have to say this pretty much is how I felt after learning about the salvation of all.

I have wondered why there isn't more people who are outspoken on the salvation of all? Don't we want everyone to know what we know? How come there isn't someone on TV who is proclaiming this good news? Didn't Paul say we were given the ministry of reconciliation? Are we not ambassadors for Christ? Or was that only for Paul's day? Why aren't we shouting this from the roof tops? We are just as bad as the mainstream religions of the world. They think everyone is going to burn in hell forever and don't do much to proclaim it. We know they are not, yet we don't do much of anything to proclaim it. 

Anyway, sometimes I fell like a kid who knows everyone has won the lottery and yet I watch everyone starve, suffer, let them believe they will remain poor and miserable and don't say a word to comfort them.

I know it is all in his hands, so, God help us all.

CHB

Why would you beat your head against a brick wall?  That is the same reason I do not shout UR from the rooftops.  When a person is ready, and the Lord places them in my life...I share.

[CHB]

Hi Shawn,

But don't you get the urge sometimes to just go out and shout it to the world?

I know that God is in control of it all and it will be shouted if and when he choses but I guess I just get too eager sometimes.

CHB

[Phillip Macdonald]

Hi CHB, I can relate to your comments asking why are we not shouting this out to the world.  First I believe it is about timing.  We are nearing a tipping point for this doctrine to finally go "viral" (I believe personally).  Along with timing is momentum.  It appears that history has been preparing and fueling this vision of God's redemptive plan, and as Molly shared above the pieces are coming together and converging into one grand picture.  Timing and momentum are always a major part of any epic story and of course God's is the ultimate Story. 

I guess you could say Rob Bell tried to shout it from the rooftops and he gave us a glimpse of what the theological climate is out there.  I believe it has given a better idea of the strategy to use in bringing this truth to bear on the Church and world.  For us it was the website very specifically geared for those who are in the reformed tradition (though not limited to them and offering much to challenge the Arminian as well).

For some of us we must be strategic in our timing with individuals.  I choose very prayerfully who to share with.  And you can't remove a religious addict off their drug too suddenly or many of them go ballistic.  That's why I believe God is doing a lot of the work for us as He is leading these theologians to say things they are not supposed to mean and worship leaders are writing songs far beyond the boundaries of their theology.  I think we wait and pray (as far as the church is concerned). But the world?  They are hungry and waiting for some really good news and there's no one out there threatening to tell us "farewell" for sharing the Story of ultimate reconciliation with them!

For me, mostly I speak to the unchurched.  They are very interested to talk about spiritual things now and give their stories especially their experiences with religion.  It has opened up unbelievable relationships now that the "stumbling block" of ECT has been taken out of the way.  Now I can give them Christ and Him crucified and risen, directly without the barriers.  Now if they reject the message I know it is Christ they are rejecting not the doctrine of ECT.

If there is a Christian seriously struggling with ECT I will openly and gladly share with them.  But mostly I find that they do not talk nor think about it much...unless you challenge it.  Then they want to write a book to defend it (!)

If you pray and desire to share your faith, you will have the opportunity.  But of course it's natural to want to declare it to "every creature on earth".  I don't think it will be long before we begin to see that happening since God is Lord over the internet (!)

grace and peace,
"Phillip"

[Molly]

I suspect when the time is right, nothing will hold it back.




37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"

"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

--Luke 19



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6I5u5shgc4

[CHB]

40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

It almost seems that way now,...that the stones are going to cry out if we don't.

Phillip, I agree with what you have said.

CHB

[Molly]

It could be that UR will be the last piece to sweep in those Gentiles at the end of the age who have been turned away by ET.   We must achieve the condition of 'the fullness of the Gentiles,' then the Jews are brought in.  It does seem like we are getting close, especially given the increase in numbers of Messianic Jews.


For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; [Rom 11:25]



Israel's Messianic Jews: Some Call it a Miracle
By Wendy Griffith
CBN News Senior Reporter


In Israel, a resurgence in the number of Jews who believe in Jesus is getting a lot of attention. Many leaders say it's the strongest growth since the time of Jesus and that the Messianic movement could be on the brink of a great revival.

"This is the first time where we've seen Israeli society in general being so open to consider who Yeshua is," said Messianic leader Asher Intrater. "This is a real miracle, and there's beginning to be grace and favor with us in the land."

Although Jesus and the early disciples were Jewish, for nearly 2,000 years the gospel has been viewed as a religion mainly for Gentiles. Even the name Jesus or Yeshua has been a forbidden word among many Jews. But in the last few years, Messianic leaders in Israel say something important is happening.

"I believe with all my heart, after we have come back to the land, we are seeing the Lord, the Holy Spirit, is removing the veil from the eyes of the Jews and more and more Jews are realizing," Tel Aviv pastor Avi Mizrachi said.

Although nobody knows for sure how many Messianic Jews live in Israel, it's believed there are about 120 congregations now and 10,000-15,000 Jewish believers in Jesus.

That may not sound like many given Israel's nearly six million Jews, but it's a far cry from 10 years ago when there were only about 3,500 Jewish believers and 80 congregations.



What does this movement mean for the Body of Christ?

"It really is ultimately a battle for the return of the Lord - because Jesus will not return until the Jewish people say Baruch h'abba B'shem Adonai - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord," said worship leader Karen Davis.




http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/407139.aspx

[Phillip Macdonald]

I don't want a rock to cry out in my place!  I want to be ready and available to be a part of it.  And I believe that's been God's intention all along, to conform us into His own image as redeemers, restorers and saviors through His Spirit for the world, now and in the ages to come. 


__________________________________________

Molly,  That's fascinating information regarding the Messianic Jews.  I have not been aware of what was going on within the Jewish community.  Thank you for filling us in.  There's yet another piece of the puzzle coming together.
__________________________________________

Backing up the thread a bit, thank you Eduard for checking out the site and for the encouragement!

Phillip

[Phillip Macdonald]

An update on the websiite!! We have redesigned the homepage and added a few more articles including a video interview with Robin Parry (the Gregory MacDonald of The Evangelical Universalist).  We invite your comments and feedback on our blog!