Picked this up from a KJB facebook site.
It's going to need someone with a lot of intelligence to look over (far more than I have)
http://brandplucked.webs.com/doctrineofhell.htm
"Hell, grave, sheol, hades, etc, what's the difference?"
That's my reply to the whole article.
The author's point isn't about a translation issue, it's about what the words mean.
Or what he thinks the words mean. The word 'hell' gives the ultimate support for his/her doctrine, the other words don't. So the real question is the doctrine attached to those words.
Grave, sheol and hades are correct translations because it's those words that are used in the original languages. But that doesn't make hell a wrong translation depending the meaning you give to it. The secular meaning is "hidden, out of sight". It's from ancient German predating the KJV. It's where the English words 'hole' and 'helmet' come from.
And the word hell dates back even further. It's as pagan as you can get it. It's Norsk mythology. About a half man half wolf god in his underworld kingdom.
Same with hades. Hades is the Greek underworld and the name of the god ruling it.
Maybe hell is a good translation because some things align roughly with 'our hell'
Their hel was for those who didn't fall in battle. A place of shame. In the Christian mind its's often for people who didn't die for/in Christ.
People in norsk-hel stay there until the new world arrives. Isn't Christ the bringer of the new world?
I'm very much aware the author of the article never even tried to promote Norsk mythology and ending of hell. I'm just trying to prove that everyone can juggle with words and make whatever point.
The points made in the article are.. well... not very wise
QuoteKing James Bible - "The wicked shall be turned into HELL, and all the nations that forget God."
NIV - "The wicked RETURN TO THE GRAVE, all the nations that forget God."
There are two big problems with the NIV rendering here. First, you can only RETURN TO someplace you have already been before. Does the NIV teach reincarnation? You can teach it using the NIV, but you cannot get the doctrine of reincarnation from the King James Bible.
I must admit I don't know how many NIV versions there are, but the one I found online isn't even close to what the author quotes
QuotePsalm 9:17The wicked go down to the realm of the dead,
all the nations that forget God.
http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/9.htm
I don't see the word 'return' anywhere.
When I first saw the word return and before even reading the NIV verse my thought was to look up the meaning of grave. You know, grave, dirt, the stuff Adam was made from.
Anyway NASB indeed uses the word return. And I must say it's not a bad translation at all.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=h7725
QuoteThe Jewish translations differ among themselves as well. The 1917 JPS (Jewish Publication Society) says: "The wicked shall return to THE NETHER-WORLD, even all the nations that forget God." The Jewish Family Bible 1864 - "Wicked ones shall return unto the GRAVE, and all nations that forget God."
Well spotted. Now remove the beam from your eye and start spotting in the KJV. The old KJV uses the word hell 54 times while the new KJV uses it 32 time. Why is the author silent about that?
You may find a few articles on the topic you may like here: http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html
Sound doctrine must take into account the origins of the words used to support it. :declare:
Well, I just now browsed the article, and the only thing I can take away is that the author takes Hell as being axiomatic, when it is very disputable. Having looked behind the curtain, I say with confidence that Hell is a theological/theo-illogical insertion or sleight-of-hand.
Hell is not just the origin of our English words "hole" and "helmet," it is a loan-word from Old Norse, the name of their "goddess" Hel and her realm Helheim (house of Hel). My wife and I were in a bookstore the other day, and after finding nothing compelling in the religious section, I wandered over to mythology - I always check for a version of the Kalevala. Anyway, I chose at random a book on Norse mythology, and reviewed Hel, who showed up in several places, so I'm not just blowing smoke.
QuoteHell is not just the origin of our English words "hole" and "helmet," it is a loan-word from Old Norse
That's what I wrote and linked to. The full text:
QuoteWhy was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?
Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant "hidden, out of sight?" Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they "went to hel," they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.
Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.
Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.
Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.
The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.
I missed your link, but am glad to see that we're in agreement...I was not trying to steal your thunder, btw.
The parallels between Helheim and Hades make me wonder how much contact the ancient north Europeans had with the Greeks. I recall reading about archaeology being done in Germany, where Greek-made artefacts were found in ancient tombs.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 11, 2016, 05:44:40 PM
I missed your link, but am glad to see that we're in agreement...I was not trying to steal your thunder, btw.
Not all buddy. It's just that I quite often seem to fail to get my point across. So I just try again :Peace2:
QuoteThe parallels between Helheim and Hades make me wonder how much contact the ancient north Europeans had with the Greeks. I recall reading about archaeology being done in Germany, where Greek-made artefacts were found in ancient tombs.
I always wondered about the same, but on a much larger scale. For example there are many flood stories that are quite similar to ours. Creation stories. Savior stories. End of the world stories. Etc.
To use your words: They are stealing 'our' thunder.
Helheim is never mentioned in the Bible. Hades is. Obviously it was just a teaching vehicle to reach the pagans, because I don't believe the usage of Hades should be understood as pagan myths being true. But even if it supports those myths we are on the winning side. Hades is robbed of it's victory being the dead held by that evil god. Hades is cast in the fire. I think that's the god hades not the grave. So either hades is a fable or hades will suffer total defeat. It can even be understood as pagan mythology being mocked.
I think the elements burned away with fervent heat is the same type of mockery. Huge parts of pagan philosophy revolved around elements.
It's really a returning topic; our God slayed Levithan who was a hyper violent and untamable god in paganism. Again mockery or total defeat? That your pick :friendstu:
/EDIT
I think hell was invented in ancient Egypt.
Chester, in my opinion you should steer clear of articles written by KJV only people. They will only confuse you more and take you down a path of hating any bible but KJV, a bad destination. We are called to love and worship God, not KJV.
Yes - Chester, I hope we've begun to answer your questions. BTW, I was once a KJV loyalist, but no longer.
Loyalist Laz. :bigGrin:
I'm sure you've seen what I'm talking about, like someone foaming at the mouth over 'turned or return' in the example above, calling anything not KHV, God dishonoring trash. A bumper sticker I saw once, 'If it ain't a King James Version it ain't a bible'. Causes nothing but confusion in beginners like I was back then.
Quote from: bushy on December 11, 2016, 08:38:03 PM
If it ain't a King James Version it ain't a bible'.
All non English speaking people are heading to hell. :eek:
I know I'm. Nearly bedtime here and I'm gonna hide under my blanket in hel :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2016, 09:38:32 PM
Nearly bedtime here and I'm gonna hide under my blanket in hel :winkgrin:
heh heh heh :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: bushy on December 11, 2016, 06:55:02 PM
Chester, in my opinion you should steer clear of articles written by KJV only people. They will only confuse you more and take you down a path of hating any bible but KJV, a bad destination. We are called to love and worship God, not KJV.
Hi Bushy. Thanks for those lovely thoughts about me. Tbh I feel its a calling I have. Someone needs to stand up to ET's as its an evil that really hurts people (not that I feel everyone who believes in ET is evil, more brain washed). Also I know I still have a belief hell in me so by confronting it and those that believe in if I'm hoping I can destroy it (hope I'm right and the Lord will help me).
my main trouble is this path I'm on is late in my life and I've a poor memory and even poorer education. I've not read so much bible as I have these past months and still could not remember a verse word for word.......shows you all how thick I am haha.
It's not about memorizing. It's about understanding the message.
Pharisees were great at memorizing but they didn't understand the message..
That whole ill-logic about the King James Bible..! One of those illogical things that make yer eyes spin when you think about it! "Hell" of course being at the top of that particular list!
Like the prophets and the apostles spoke in 'ye olde englishe' ...puhlease! :laughing7: (no disrespect intended! the motives are likely good; trying to be faithful is likely all they're doing.. but I can't help but say the lack of logic is a little baffling!) :faint:
Jesus was not Greek.. so likely never used the word "hades" but used the word "sheol" which the Old Testament says "...there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol whither thou art going." - no doing, no thought in sheol. (New Testament letters were likely written in the Greek? since the churches they were written to were gentiles. Except for maybe the letter of James? Hebrews?)
"Gehenna" of course, was the Jerusalem dump. Where they even burned the bodies of criminals there so it was a pretty gruesome place. They kept the fires burning and worms were prevalent. So Jesus used this as an example, and said it would be better to cut off your hand and throw it into the gehenna fire than you harm one of these little ones (which is the gist of it I get from one of the accounts of it) and your whole body be thrown into the gehenna fire.. There'a another reference to Gehenna by the Lord (that I know of, or remember) which I think refers to what's called 'last days' fire, and thus the "gehenna fire" He refers to is upon earth and not a 'hereafter' thing.
"Tartarus" is another one i find very interesting, but don't understand all the fuss! The angels that sinned are locked in chains of "darkness" locked into judgment.. Well, they're no longer perfect.. And I figure all imperfect fades.. ceases, dies and thus is judged. And they're locked into imperfection. They can't reverse their course now, and make their selves again 'perfect' what with being imperfect. I don't think of "tartarus" as a place at all, but a state of heart, mind and being; locked into it awaiting judgment ('day'?)
I agree with the author there's a lot of consistent inconsistency in the translating of original words, into the word "hell"!
Imagine a brand new believer of this day and age, having to only read a King James Version Bible with the thee's and the thou's and all! At least a faithful to the King James should recommend the New King James!
I was looking for a certain verse.. which I thought says all meet in sheol, I couldn't find it.. but I did read some interesting ones:
"You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." Psalm 16:10 - why would a "holy one" be in "hell"?
"I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him." - Genesis 37:35 - Jacob figured he was going to hell?
"He bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up." - 1 Samuel 2:6
"O that in Sheol Thou wouldst conceal me, Hide me till the turning of Thine anger, Set for me a limit, and remember me." Job said -Job 14:13 - "oh that you would hide me in hell?"
" Thou hast brought up from Sheol my soul" - Psalm 30:3
"Let them become silent in Sheol." - Psalm 31:17
"Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol" - Psalm 49:15
This is the first I've heard of a paradise side and a prison side of hell..
"..I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise."
This one's always misread big time?! - 1 Peter 3:20:
"...the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (phulakē - a watch or watching); Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." - 1 Peter 3:20 - went by the Spirit and preached to those waiting and watching while the ark was being built..
I hate it when I hear or read this! -- Jesus Christ Himself talked about the reality of a place called Hell more than He talked about a place called Heaven. He talked about the dangers of destruction and also talked about judgment day.. when the queen of the south would say something about the pharisees of Jesus' day.. and some cities on judgment day, He said would fare worse than Sodom and Gomorrah on judgment day.
Translators translated His words into "hell".
Revelation 14:9-11 - "...the smoke of their torment" - which he capitalized, TORMENT, which in that way of seeing it could be TORTURE :mshock:
the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever.. well, ages to ages is more literal.. But is that like the smoke of sodom and gomorrah? which is "set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire" (or that is "aiōnios pyr")
Sodom and Gomorrah and cities around are still in flames? I must have missed that.
The beast and false prophet of Revelation 19 and 20 I think are institutions of mankind active at the time of Jesus' return.. but even if not, it's still "ageduring" - aionios - not eternal..
The article ends pretty much with quoting this verse Jacob said, and how it sheol here was correctly translated (by venerable translators) as the grave (as opposed to all the others translated "hell" :dontknow: :dontknow: say what?) - he writes - "I will go down to SHEOL" (whatever the heck that is?!?)
Ecclesiastes 9:10 - "All that thy hand findeth to do, with thy power do. For there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in SHEOL whither thou art going." ..."where the worms are spread under thee and the worms are thy covering.." Isaiah 14:11.
Torment... again I'm gonna spam my site here because it's way to much to quote and without proper formatting unreadele: http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html)
Of course it's best to read it all but section B is the most on topic part of that page. I'm not claiming any perfection, but I would kindly but strongy suggest all who have nightmares about hell really take the time to read everything on that page and what it links too. It will reveal something that will vastly reduces stress...
Ok, lemme start with saying that Strong's gives several meaning for the Greek word be have translated into torment. They are all 100% correct. BUT
"testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"
Is the meaning until 288AD. After that the meaning of the word started to gradually change to torture. Before that the meaning became checking calculations. Calculations about money/coins.
If you read that page you will see that torment, refining try, punishment and approve are all about testing and purifying gold.
God being a launderer's soap obviously is about cleaning. That soap contained sulphur.
Sulphur was widely used as an disinfectant against skin diseases (still used in acne cream) get rid of pests etc, and to purify Temples. That was so for about about every nation around that time. Greeks viewed it as a divine substance. The Greek word for sulphur is closely related to the Greek word for God.
So when you read sulphur simply read all-purpose-cleaner :winkgrin:
Yeah, that includes the lake of fire (LoF). Fire is an disinfectant too.
To much to summarize here but LoF can be translated as bath/washing. The word of God can be linked to bathing too. Yeah, I know it all sound kinda weird. But just read.
In the end it all boils down to this:
a] You are polluted gold but no refiner refines and then destroys the coin. Nope, He refines and keep the coin.
b] You are a dirty sock which the Launderer washes and keep.
c] You are grain which gets chaff removed and then are precious.
So those nasty words all prove UR not disprove it...
Quote from: marie glen on December 12, 2016, 06:48:43 PM
I hate it when I hear or read this! -- Jesus Christ Himself talked about the reality of a place called Hell more than He talked about a place called Heaven. He talked about the dangers of destruction and also talked about judgment day.. when the queen of the south would say something about the pharisees of Jesus' day.. and some cities on judgment day, He said would fare worse than Sodom and Gomorrah on judgment day.
Translators translated His words into "hell".
Revelation 14:9-11 - "...the smoke of their torment" - which he capitalized, TORMENT, which in that way of seeing it could be TORTURE :mshock:
the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever.. well, ages to ages is more literal.. But is that like the smoke of sodom and gomorrah? which is "set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire" (or that is "aiōnios pyr")
Sodom and Gomorrah and cities around are still in flames? I must have missed that.
Eze 16:53
I will restore their fortunes,
the fortune of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters (and I will restore your fortune along with them),