We are being told that religious scholars and preachers are refraining from teaching about hell because they have come to believe that there is no hell. In Luke chapter 16 Jesus references hell in the parable of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus. Luke writes in verses 23 and 24 that Jesus said, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Also, John writes in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 and 14 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Two questions:
Are you really going to base a doctrine on a parable? Look at this for a better explanation of the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus:
http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/topics/hellencyclopedia/lazarus-and-the-rich-man/
Second, the wording at the end of chapter 20 of the Revelation is difficult to understand. However, it is also stated that Death is the last enemy to be overcome. If Death is overcome, how can anyone be still dead and/or in Hell?
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
We are being told that religious scholars and preachers are refraining from teaching about hell because they have come to believe that there is no hell. In Luke chapter 16 Jesus references hell in the parable of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus. Luke writes in verses 23 and 24 that Jesus said, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Also, John writes in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 and 14 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Not really. Hell is on this earth. I go through hell myself. Why would we need more torture in the afterlife? We deal with enough crap on this earth. We should at least have rest and relief when we pass away.
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Anyone who says something like this reveals their unlearned condition. Peter says, "...the unlearned and unstable twist..." the Scriptures "...to their own destruction." (2 Pt 3
16) Consider some Bible facts nearly anyone can verify or invalidate.
John (the Revelator) spoke five times of, "The second death, the lake of fire." This has not been covered up by translators with the English word "hell." In fact, "hell" never occurs in the Book of Revelation. The lake of fire is never called "hell" in the Bible.
Being a Christian, I believe God has given us a written revelation in Greek and Hebrew. That means I should evaluate what is going on in situations like this when there is only one English word for two underlying Hebrew words and three or four underlying Greek words.
The Bible translations of the last fifty years never use the English "hell" in the Old Testament, not once. There are two Hebrew words past generations sometimes covered with the word "hell:" "
Sheol," the state corresponding to death, and, "
kevura," the grave.
Paul, who wrote two thirds of the New Testament, only twice used a word some translators paste the word hell over.
Two times He spoke of "
hades," which may be equated with "sheol" of the Old Testament. That's it for over two thirds of the New Testament.
Jesus only spoke of "
gehenna," the valley of Hinnon, a garbage dump in Jesus' day. While Jesus' used gehenna eight times, it is
recorded twelve times due to there being four parallel gospels.
These aforementioned words of Paul and Jesus are the usual places the translations of the last fifty years pasted over with the word "hell." Most of them used "hell" only eleven times, and only in the New Testament. The New American Standard Bible only uses it thirteen times, all in the New Testament.
"
Tartaroo"
occurs only once in the New Testament, 2 Peter 2
4, and is used in conjunction with angels, not men.
Then there is "
frear," a well or pit,
occuring seven times in five verses of the New Testament.
And the last is "
Abyssos," rendered (in the KJV) bottomless pit (5 times,) deep (2 times,) and, bottomless (2 times;) thus, a total of
nine times.
These are, to the best of my present knowledge the only possible verses English speakers may have put the word "hell" over. You can see the original source, what God acrually said covers five different Greek words, in addition to the lake of fire, never called "hell" in the Bible, as well as two Hebrew words. If God had meant them all to mean one thing, translated with one word, He would have used the same word instead of seven or eight different words. Many of the translators have not been faithful to God's words, even unto this day. They seem to think they can tell us what God meant to say; but, cannot demonstrate they know what He actuaolly says.
But, you believe in "hell?!"
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
You probable believe that if the KJV was good enough for Jesus, then it's good enough for me also. ;)
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
We are being told that religious scholars and preachers are refraining from teaching about hell because they have come to believe that there is no hell. In Luke chapter 16 Jesus references hell in the parable of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus. Luke writes in verses 23 and 24 that Jesus said, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Also, John writes in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 and 14 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Ask yourself this: if death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, then can hell still exist?
And before you tell me the lake of fire is hell, let me ask you this: If I throw a roll of duct tape into a basket, is the duct tape the basket?
As far as the parable goes (and please do not miss that it was a parable and never meant to be taken literally), please note that salvation isn't mentioned once, it was directed toward the Pharisees, and that if we are to take it literally, the only way to heaven is to be poor, eat crumbs from the table, and let the dogs lick our wounds. Sound like the "plan of salvation" to you?
There is no such thing as hell. God is the Savior of ALL mankind, especially those who believe. Period.
Quote from: reFORMer on August 16, 2012, 03:41:01 PM
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Anyone who says something like this reveals their unlearned condition.
Or their twisted mind.
The Pharisees in Jesus time were learned men who had a good grasp on Scripture.
They saw Jesus performing miracles. They even believed it were true miracles. So far so good. But they attributed those miracles to satan.
Today the Pharisees are replaced by the church that claims it is orthodox.
They attribute the absolute success (spiritual miracle) of Jesus to satanic interpretation.
WW, I think you mean to say, "the church that claims it is orthodox," rather than, "The Orthodox Church," which to many means particular demoninations in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, including the Greek and the Russian Orhodox. I tend to call it things like, "Mainstream institutional Christianity that considers itself to be the righteous arbiter of faith and practice for the rest of the Christian world." To the best of my recollection, this is the first time I've called it just that. These things aren't an exact science.
Correct. Editted.
There is a lake of fire, albeit an image representing a spiritual reality that is interpretable through the other scriptures in a variety of ways.
There never was a hell, and is no such thing as Hell, or Hades.
There is SHEOL, the word incorrectly translated first as HADES, by the Greeks, then INFERNO by the Romans, and then HELL, by the English, who were linguisticly influenced by the Jutes and Danes and Vikings for whom HEL was their mythological underworld.
In Hebrew thought, there never was a HELL of fire.
In early Christian thought fire CONSUMES DARKNESS, REVEALS SECRETS, PURIFIES THE METAL
The idea of hades/hell was already in existence among the Greeks and Romans before Christ, but HELL never existed in Christian language until the 15th century- a word coined by the English as they perpetuated the INFERIOR SCHOLARSHIP AND PREJUDICED SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY OF THEIR PREDECESSORS ACCORDING TO THE EDICT OF CORRUPT KING JAMES RELIGIONISTS.
There is the FIRE OF GOD which is LIGHT and CONSUMES DARKNESS which is HATE, which will be REVEALED BY FIRE which is LIGHT, which is LOVE _ Which is why all things are being reconciled by THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, for, IF I BE LIFTED UP I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.
God is light, God is love, God is a consuming fire
for more information:
www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com (http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com)
Another hit and run attack.
Seems to be the m.o. of the sun ETs.
Just posting something their satanic pastor told them.
Avoiding replies because they likely are aware they have zero Scriptual knowledge...
The idea of an eternal torment and torture is not concordant with the idea of eternal happiness in heaven. How can a person be eternally happy in heaven if they know that some of their relatives and friends - people they knew and cared about are tortured for an eternity?
It is a disturbing concept that causes mental instability.
QuoteHow can a person be eternally happy in heaven if they know that some of their relatives and friends - people they knew and cared about are tortured for an eternity
Based on "former things shall not be remembered"
Sure wrong interpretaion but still used as proof.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 09, 2012, 09:24:21 AM
QuoteHow can a person be eternally happy in heaven if they know that some of their relatives and friends - people they knew and cared about are tortured for an eternity
Based on "former things shall not be remembered"
Sure wrong interpretaion but still used as proof.
If you cannot remember your former life then there is no point in having a life in order to learn from the consequences of our actions.
No need to convince me SoT :-)
It would for example also mean nobody knows Jesus was crucified.
Romans obviously are wiped from memory. Those Romans had mothers too.
Lobotomy.
I think some got one at baptism :-0)
Obviously the former things are being remembered by someone if people are being tormented over them. It would make sense to me that the former things are forgotten when they are forgiven, DOH!
Of course, maybe God will just have a blackout, you kno, like for a home football game. His own little secret side-fire that the redeemed are not allowed to see, where only the Father warms His hands over the suffering of the wicked, DOH!
But then, How will we "know as we are known" if we can't see the suffering of the wicked. DOH!
And if they can't remember why they are being tormented, WHAT"S THE POINT OF THEIR AGONY! DOH
But then Tertullian(inventor of the Trinity and patriarch of the Roman Catholic Church) wrote a long soliloquy about how he couldnt wait to hear the agonized screams of the wicked screaming in the fire, DOH!
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/hell-fire.htm
Some of the quote in the above link clearly show the twisted depravity of men regarded as "church fathers" who actually believed that our joy in "heaven" would be increased by the knowledge of the suffering of the damned in "hell".
Some of them showed their true faith in such abominable theology by tormenting saints here on earth for the sins of disagreeing with "the church"- imprisoning, torturing and murdering saints and "sinners" alike for refusing to bow the knee to the systematic theology they enforced in the flesh.
Rejoice oh you saints of God for even all of these wicked persecutors, who enacted their evil schemes in the name of our Savior, at the appointed time, will bow their knee, and yield to the love of God, and be baptized in the ALL IN ALL, immersed in glory of the Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father!
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
We are being told that religious scholars and preachers are refraining from teaching about hell because they have come to believe that there is no hell. In Luke chapter 16 Jesus references hell in the parable of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus. Luke writes in verses 23 and 24 that Jesus said, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Also, John writes in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 and 14 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Dude... every human ever born to this date is headed to Hell... i.e. (the Grave)! Death!
Tell me why all Christians who no longer live
WENT to their grave? (
Hell)
I'll tell you why... Because the wages of sin is death! Now it's no different than with Adam! Jesus did not die to save you from death! He died to save you unto life... thus.... Your resurrection on the last day! When He returns!
Paul
Quote from: j1e9b5j4 on August 07, 2012, 12:33:36 PM
We are being told that religious scholars and preachers are refraining from teaching about hell because they have come to believe that there is no hell. In Luke chapter 16 Jesus references hell in the parable of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus. Luke writes in verses 23 and 24 that Jesus said, "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Also, John writes in Revelation Chapter 20 verses 13 and 14 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
I'll stick with John and Jesus. There is a hell.
Do you have children? I'm just wondering what kind of punishment you would use if you do. Would you burn your children? I knew a little girl once whose mother burned her so badly as punishment that she had to have corrective surgery. What kind of mother would do that to a little girl? How do we react when we hear of parents burning their children like this? And yet, we may think that God, our Father, is going to burn his children and not just for awhile but forever?
Do we think that we have more love, compassion and forgiveness than God does? God who has perfect love, perfect everything. His thoughts and ways are higher than ours. Higher, not the same or lower than ours.
I would say it is good to remember that not everything in the scriptures is to be taken literally.
Mark 9:43"If your hand causes subverts you,
cut it off, for it is better for you that you enter the Life maimed, than when you have two hands, you would go to Gehenna." 45"If your foot subverts you,
cut it off, for it is better for you to enter the Life crippled than when you have two feet that you should fall into Gehenna." 47"And if your eye subverts you,
pluck it out, for is better for you that you should enter the Kingdom of God with one eye than having two eyes that you should fall into the Gehenna of fire.
cont., Mk 9 (CLT) . . .
47 And if your eye should be snaring you, cast it out. It is ideal for you to be entering into the kingdom of God one-eyed, rather than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehenna of fire,
48 where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out.
49 For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.
50 Ideal is the salt, yet if the salt should be becoming savorless, with what will you be seasoning it? Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with one another."
Those who believe in ceaseless torture for ever usually stop before verse 49 here in Mk 9. Everyone shall be salted with fire . . . Amazing difference when you add to consider what Jesus was saying, specially to His disciples that day. "Everybody's work tried by fire" here, Everyone shall be salted with fire. Everyone.
I see very often God being referred to as a refining fire, one that purifies, and there's that one part where there's a fiery judgment in the presence of God and his angels. I'm just saying that would probably be the "hell" which is being called out for everything from your life and instead, it's actually being purified from sin. That's the judgment, so to speak. IF there is a lake of fire, it would seem to be in the presence of God and he is the eternal fire that purifies. Well, there's my two cents :) I think there's a lot of insight in all of these comments as well, there's definitely a lot to take in.
Quote from: TrueGrace379 on November 13, 2012, 09:29:00 AM
I see very often God being referred to as a refining fire, one that purifies, and there's that one part where there's a fiery judgment in the presence of God and his angels. I'm just saying that would probably be the "hell" which is being called out for everything from your life and instead, it's actually being purified from sin. That's the judgment, so to speak. IF there is a lake of fire, it would seem to be in the presence of God and he is the eternal fire that purifies. Well, there's my two cents :) I think there's a lot of insight in all of these comments as well, there's definitely a lot to take in.
This is exactly how I see it.
Me too. "Our God is a consuming fire"
The dross of sin is burned off leaving only the pure.
:iagree:And so, perhaps the judgment is merely "This one needs more refining...". :dontknow:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 14, 2012, 05:21:47 AM
:iagree:And so, perhaps the judgment is merely "This one needs more refining...". :dontknow:
Yes, I think that is often the case.
You can never convince someone who wants to believe there is a hell, I have tried many times in the past. No amount of verses is going to change their mind. It only takes a very small amount of study to understand the meanings behind the words translated as hell. If a person really cared to understand the truth and God had chosen for them to do so they would already have done so with all the information that is available online.
but... there is always a time lapse oman, one doesn't talk to one person and hear the idea and immediately switch. I've talked to former Jehovah Witness people that have told me that someone planted a seed in their mind about the truth and it didn't come to fruition till 10 or 20 years later. You never know the long term effect of the seeds you've planted - it's god who makes it grow. :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 14, 2012, 03:43:37 PM
but... there is always a time lapse oman, one doesn't talk to one person and hear the idea and immediately switch. I've talked to former Jehovah Witness people that have told me that someone planted a seed in their mind about the truth and it didn't come to fruition till 10 or 20 years later. You never know the long term effect of the seeds you've planted - it's god who makes it grow. :2c:
I totally agree with you that telling people is a great idea, planting the seed. Showing them why you believe against it is also helpful. Endless amounts of arguments lead nowhere though, especially when it comes to hell. It is really not that hard to understand and to believe such things of God is in my opinion a corruption of the mind. The moment someone tells you the belief in hell may be incorrect one should rejoice and seek out more information on this, same goes for Universalism. Who would chose to simply ignore these and continue such a belief is beyond me. I know that Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in hell but eternal destruction. It was probably something else that took them 10 years to change their mind on, something like Jehovah's Witnesses are not Gods true organization on Earth. My best friend figured it out in 25 and his parents in 45years, that seed takes awhile it seems for them.
I think the Jehovah Witnesses take longer to change or quit the organization is
because they are far more indoctrinated into their belief system than the average church today
and have far stiffer penalties. My experiences with todays churches is that they
almost don't care what you believe if: You give your money, you show up at least once a week,
and don't mention your contrary beliefs.
Each of us will be reconciled to God in his own time at the choosing of the Holy Spirit
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 15, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
My experiences with todays churches is that they
almost don't care what you believe if: You give your money, you show up at least once a week,
and don't mention your contrary beliefs.
That sounds like a business model, not the way to run a spiritual community.
It is a business model Laz. There are numerous books out on how to build a "successful" church
Guess how often the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit is mentioned?
Wait a minute, someone already shouted out "never" from the back of the room. :Peace2:
People won't line up for that book. It has already been written- title?
The Gospels......Acts.......Romans......1&2 Corinthians......Galatians......Ephesians......Philippians......Colossians...........THE NEW TESTAMENT
Quote from: eaglesway on December 15, 2012, 06:02:35 PM
People won't line up for that book. It has already been written- title?
The Gospels......Acts.......Romans......1&2 Corinthians......Galatians......Ephesians......Philippians......Colossians...........THE NEW TESTAMENT
:dsunny: Yes and I rest now, knowing that it will be made known to ALL..... in His Time. Glory! I wrestle, but find my rest in that should I be chosen to see conversion in a brother or sister, it will be in His Time and His Place, that I have been set. I can ask for no more. Praise His Name. Joh 8:32 and the truth shall make you free.'