The wind blows where it pleases

[Windwalker]

Hello all, glad to have found this site. I was curious as to whether or not there was any forum for those who espouse Christian universalism (Without veering off into all sorts of craziness) and, after a simple google search, it seems I have found it.

I came to believe in this doctrine when I was around 16 and in a major crisis of faith, there just seemed to be so much wrong particularly with the idea of God creating people who he knows will spend eternity in torment, blaspheming him without hope. It seems unjust to rip people out of nonexistence when that's there fate. Then I found out that, contrary to the mainstream, there are actually a large number of Christians who interpret things differently (George Macdonald and I would argue his pupil C.S Lewis- One of the most famous Christian writers of all time- Being among them.) and I was just like  :rolllol:

I find it odd and disturbing that we have reached times where belief in eternal suffering is viewed as a chief and even vital doctrine to the Christian faith, one which you yourself will be damned by if you don't believe in it. It's not in the Nicene or Apostles creeds and is not really vital in that sense to the Athanasean. Paul states pretty clearly that "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." But believes in what? Well, simply, if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead- That's it, that's the requirement! Not to say that other doctrines aren't important, but I find it odd to think that people could be damned for having alternative beliefs about hell.  :dunno2:

Now don't get me started on the biblical gymnastics people make to say that "Every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord and every knee will bow, things in heaven and on earth and under the earth." doesn't actually mean that they'll be saved... Sad. But I actually plan on making a comprehensive thread on the prooftexts for universalism and refuting the texts people use against it.  :dsunny:

Looking forward to hearing from the rest of you. Thanks for setting this place up.
:iagree:

[Ross]

I find it odd and disturbing that we have reached times where belief in eternal suffering is viewed as a chief and even vital doctrine to the Christian faith, one which you yourself will be damned by if you don't believe in it.

Interesting that Christ only has harsh words at the Pharisees, supposed teachers and leaders of the people.
Paul after his conversion says that he had acted in unbelief, literally when he was a Pharisee.
The history of the church exposes that they used the lie of hell to keep the people under their control, with that fear factor.
Wasn't even aware of this deceitful concept until being led out of the church.
Without the distractions of the doctrines of man I have since become open to the concept that when God says He loves us, He actually does. Not mans' definition, but His.
Paul in Ephesians highlights that the love of God goes beyond our ability to fully comprehend, surpassing our current state of being.
After all;  perfect love casts out fear. God is perfect.
Christ in you, the hope of all glory.
As you say, the wind blows where it please, I.M.O so that no man can pinch even a hint of the glory of what Christ did for us.
Saved by grace, not by works, so that no man can boast.
Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.

1 Cor 15 seems to explain the whole plan quite well, and that after the talk of love in 1 Cor 13.

Paul made the point about knowing nothing among you except Christ;
1 Cor 1;17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ
                 be rendered ineffective."

Seems too many preachers are complicating the simplicity of the cross- ergo personal effort which actually diminishes what was achieved by the cross.
Fortunately God is greater than man, and is literally running the program quite well, regardless of man trying to outdo Him.

The truth is actually pretty inspirational- The truth sets us free.
C.U

[Windwalker]

The history of the church exposes that they used the lie of hell to keep the people under their control, with that fear factor.

You're right, and this is just a disgusting practice; As you say- God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind. Perfect love drives out all fear. The idea of trying to scare people into the faith... I mean the sad thing is it doesn't even work. Christianity in this country is largely anemic. You get this problem where people are becoming Christians for the sole purpose of escaping hell and it's just sad. There's no other way to put it.

[jabcat]

Hello all, glad to have found this site. I was curious as to whether or not there was any forum for those who espouse Christian universalism (Without veering off into all sorts of craziness) and, after a simple google search, it seems I have found it.

I came to believe in this doctrine when I was around 16 and in a major crisis of faith, there just seemed to be so much wrong particularly with the idea of God creating people who he knows will spend eternity in torment, blaspheming him without hope. It seems unjust to rip people out of nonexistence when that's there fate. Then I found out that, contrary to the mainstream, there are actually a large number of Christians who interpret things differently (George Macdonald and I would argue his pupil C.S Lewis- One of the most famous Christian writers of all time- Being among them.) and I was just like  :rolllol:

I find it odd and disturbing that we have reached times where belief in eternal suffering is viewed as a chief and even vital doctrine to the Christian faith, one which you yourself will be damned by if you don't believe in it. It's not in the Nicene or Apostles creeds and is not really vital in that sense to the Athanasean. Paul states pretty clearly that "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved." But believes in what? Well, simply, if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead- That's it, that's the requirement! Not to say that other doctrines aren't important, but I find it odd to think that people could be damned for having alternative beliefs about hell.  :dunno2:

Now don't get me started on the biblical gymnastics people make to say that "Every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord and every knee will bow, things in heaven and on earth and under the earth." doesn't actually mean that they'll be saved... Sad. But I actually plan on making a comprehensive thread on the prooftexts for universalism and refuting the texts people use against it.  :dsunny:

Looking forward to hearing from the rest of you. Thanks for setting this place up.
:iagree:

:thumbsup: welcome :)

[Lazarus Short]

But I actually plan on making a comprehensive thread on the prooftexts for universalism and refuting the texts people use against it.  :dsunny:

Welcome, Windwalker!  Proof texts are OK, but just like the original diet of Adam & Eve (every herb bearing seed), we need to consider every part of Scripture.  I found some surprises as I made my survey of the KJV to see for myself if Hell were real.  See my thread "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" in the Hellbusters Hallow section.  I knew that God was willing to saves us, for instance, but finding texts that He was ABLE were not so easy.  One of my "Aha!" moments was finding such proof of ability - and then - I realized that God is omnipotent.  Of course He is able!   :doh:

Another "Aha!" moment happened as I tracked the word "hell" in the old languages of northern Europe.  I found that the Norse goddess of the afterlife you supposedly got if you did not rate Valhalla was Hel, who ruled over Helheim.  Yes, Hell is pagan thru and thru.

[Dandelion]

The history of the church exposes that they used the lie of hell to keep the people under their control, with that fear factor.

You're right, and this is just a disgusting practice; As you say- God has not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind. Perfect love drives out all fear. The idea of trying to scare people into the faith... I mean the sad thing is it doesn't even work. Christianity in this country is largely anemic. You get this problem where people are becoming Christians for the sole purpose of escaping hell and it's just sad. There's no other way to put it.

Yes, very sad. Running away from something bad, i.e. Hell, can never replace the joy, acceptance, and love felt when we run towards something very worthy of our allegiance and wonderful, i.e. God. We do not allow ourselves to be transformed because we are afraid....only love can do that.

1 John 4: 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

D.

[Windwalker]

Welcome, Windwalker!  Proof texts are OK, but just like the original diet of Adam & Eve (every herb bearing seed), we need to consider every part of Scripture.  I found some surprises as I made my survey of the KJV to see for myself if Hell were real.  See my thread "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No" in the Hellbusters Hallow section.  I knew that God was willing to saves us, for instance, but finding texts that He was ABLE were not so easy.  One of my "Aha!" moments was finding such proof of ability - and then - I realized that God is omnipotent.  Of course He is able!   :doh:

Another "Aha!" moment happened as I tracked the word "hell" in the old languages of northern Europe.  I found that the Norse goddess of the afterlife you supposedly got if you did not rate Valhalla was Hel, who ruled over Helheim.  Yes, Hell is pagan thru and thru.

Definitely true, and I would argue that the language of UR actually permeates all scripture but we're conditioned not to see it. At the very least it's all through the new testament, where Paul won't shut up about Christ being "Savior of all men," "Reconciling all things to himself," "All things to all people," "Every knee will confess," etc. etc. And even in the Old Testament you have ALL nations bringing tribute to Mount Zion, all flesh rejoicing in various psalms and whatnot.

That is definitely an interesting observation as well.

[Dandelion]

Sorry, Windwalker! I forgot to say, Welcome!

I think this is a great place. Hope you like it.

D.

[RonnyTX]

Hello Windwalker and welcome to Tentmaker. :-)  Glad you found this place. Six or seven years ago, this was the main place God led me to, to show me the truth of universal salvation. :-)  Before that, I had been Calvinist in belief. But I only believed that way, because I was brought up in church from an infant, taught to believe that way. And what I never got from God, was the teaching of Calvinism.

Remembering how hard it got to be, to simply go shopping in our local Wal Mart or really, any place like that. I would see people there, from the very old to new born babies. And I had been taught in church, that most of those people would end up in a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment. :-(  Now it is a joy to go to such stores and out in public. For God has shown me, that everyone I see, I will be spending eternity with. :-)  Because of that truth, it is a joy now, to simply see any and all people! :-) And thinking how rightly the scripture tells us, that joy is so truly, one of the good gifts of the Spirit, to us! :-)

[marie glen]

Welcome Windwalker! :welcome:

And amen to all of the above posts!

I agree with all that UR is so very much more prevalent in the bible than we have previously known! Both directly and indirectly.. I was never much churched, but still, as you say, the whole 'hell' teaching is SO a part of the church, and christianity's message, that all the UR verses were mostly hidden. But it didn't take me long to spy out the utter lack of any sort of LOGIC to it.. And some verses are so UR that any sort of looking for them soon turns them up..

Of course, it seems apparent to us that both His character, and His attributes completely blow the strange hell theory out of the water! :laughing7:

Yes, I think CU permeates God's Word/Promise. :thumbsup: