Hello, everyone! My name is Ryan, although I often go by "Jesrin" on the web. :) I am 17 years old and currently reside in Iowa. I have been browsing Tentmaker for some time now and have been struggling with the idea of Universal Reconciliation. I finally decided that I needed to register and discuss the topic with people who have done extensive research and seem to have a strong understanding of what the Bible says about UR. While I currently do not believe in UR, I am open to learning about it and giving it fair consideration. My hope is that God, through my discussions here, will lead me to His Truth and His Peace. In all honesty, I really WANT to believe that God will one day save everyone, but I am not fully convinced yet. Both ETers and URers have strong points to support their beliefs. It just serves to make everything confusing. :dunno2:
A little about me. I have been raised in a Christian home all my life. Due to some issues with people in our church, my family was church-less for about 7 years. We "church hopped" until we found a Christian family that accepted us, loved us, and helped us grow. That was when I was 12 years old. I accepted Christ when I was young--maybe 5 or 6?--but I didn't take my relationship with Him seriously until my Freshman Year in highschool. I am currently a Senior. God has been working in my life in powerful, powerful ways. I can honestly say that I am not the same person I was Freshman Year. I have been profoundly changed. The Lord is amazing that way.
I have always struggled with the doctrine of hell. My discomfort with it was not provoked by anyone else's ideas; my objections to the idea of eternal punishment came from my own difficulties reconciling love and eternal torment. I would go to youth group and hear about Jesus, the Savior of the World. Then I would hear about hell--a place where people would go to burn forever. FOREVER. I would spend hours thinking about the FOREVER part of hell. The youth pastor described it like this: "Think of the worst pain you've ever experienced. Got it? Now imagine that pain multiplied by a billion times. That's the pain you will experience forever in hell." I couldn't believe that! I remember voicing my concerns to my mom after the fact--I think I was 12 or 13? I asked her how a loving God could sentence anyone to eternal punishment, and based upon my reading here, it seems like many others have asked the same question. I did extensive research into the subject and, after long consideration, became an Annihilationist. It was the only way I could reconcile God's justice, His love, and all the instances of hell in the Bible. That is the view I currently hold today.
I look forward to meeting all of you. I hope that, through our discussions, God will reveal His truth--not just to me, but to all of us. Thanks in advance for introducing yourselves! God bless!
- Jesrin
Hi Jesrin, or Ryan
SO glad you took the plunge. I am just a newbie here too, though I guess a little further down the UR path than you.
I wrote on the subject of: What Exactly is Hell? on my blog site and posted the text on a new thread here on TentMaker. http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/what-exactly-is-hell/msg160913/#msg160913 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/what-exactly-is-hell/msg160913/#msg160913)
I had struggled with the concept and the total lack of LOVE of Hell ever since I was young boy. God has been very gracious and opened my eyes and heart up to a lot.
Please check out the thread and if you have any questions or comments please voice them :HeartThrob:
Meketa
hi Ryan,
I am in the process of collecting and editing a series of things I hav written over the years about UR into what I hope will be a clear presentation of the essential truths from the scriptures that led me into believing that Christ redeemed all and that God will gather all into Himself. The posts of the first three chapters are at the link below. Grace and peace to you on your journey in the name of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, and God our Father.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/first-two-chapters-'biblical-universalism'/msg160619/#msg160619 (http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/first-two-chapters-'biblical-universalism'/msg160619/#msg160619)
First, welcome to Tentmaker! :friendstu:
Second, we are (I think) more accustomed to dealing with ET versus UR, than ED versus UR. ET carries God's Justice too far, ED satisfies only His Justice, and UR satisfies both God's Justice and His Love.
Third, there is a vast (well, looks vast to me) literature here in the Tentmaker archives. Besides that, I'll follow Meketa's lead, and post this:
Hell is a 404 – location not found.
There are four main props of Hell, and I will knock them down in succession:
Prop One
Without the concept of the Immortality of the soul, Hell begins to get a bit shaky. It's very simple to dismiss if we look at the story of the creation of man by God. We all know it - God took some dirt, made a body, breathed into the body the Breath of Life, and that body became a living soul. To simplify:
dead body + breath of life = living soul
Now, let's reverse it:
living soul - breath of life = dead body
Perfect logic - start with the living person (soul) and kill it, so that the breath of life returns to God who gave it, and what do you have left? A dead body! So that means that when you're dead, you're dead. There is no immortal soul to go to Hell, Hades, or the Inferno, for the soul is temporal, and after death, is simply not. The same Bible which the Eternal Torture (ET) crowd likes to quote about Hell, says that "the soul [living person] that sinneth shall die." Being temporal, the soul [living person] becomes non-existant at death and there is therefore no soul at all to damn to Hell. The spirit cannot go there either, because it has returned to God who gave it. Is God going to send part of His own Spirit to Hell? God forbid! God forbid also the absurdity of sending a dead body to Hell, except in the original sense of the word. You see, an old meaning of "Hell" is as a verb, meaning to cover or conceal. For instance, in the days before refrigeration, you might keep fruits and vegetables in a root cellar, or lacking that, you might dig a trench to below the local frost line, lay straw in the bottom, place, say, potatoes on the straw, cover the potatoes with more straw, and cover the whole thing with the dug-out dirt. It was called "helling" the potatoes. When you bury a dead body, you are helling it, too. There is a very close connection between hell as concealment into the ground, and hell as the grave. There remains, if you examine all this closely, nothing to send to Hell except a dead body into the ground. If we jump forward from Genesis to the Revelation, we see that Death and Hell [the grave, actually] are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. Now, I ask you, if such a thing has happened, how can Hell still exist (if it ever existed), and how can the dead be in Hell if Death has been destroyed? Let's move on.
Prop Two
"Hell" as we have come to understand it, has come down to us, like the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, from pagan sources. Immortality of the Soul comes from Greek philosophy, but all the other trappings of Hell come from various mythologies. I don't want to elaborate too much on the Scandinavian "Hel," the Greek "Hades," or the Latin "Inferno," but you can look them up for yourself if you are not familiar with the mythology. This is how "Hell," or "the grave," became Hell, the place of eternal torment. Check any good dictionary, especially the Oxford, for information on Hell. "Hell," as I said above, is also a verb, meaning "to bury," reinforcing the "grave" usage. Even the Buddhist concept of Hell is very close to the ET version, the main difference being in the artistic style of the representation. Fiery Hells and red Devils are common in pagan mythologies. Two props down, it won't take much more.
Prop Three
This one is very simple – several words in the Bible have been translated as "Hell" improperly. A couple of hours with a Strong's or Young's Concordance should clear up this chestnut for you. Consider these correct definitions of terms used in the Bible:
Sheol (Hebrew) - grave.
Hades (Greek) - grave, place of the unconscious, place of the unknowing.
Gehenna (Greek) - a location near Jerusalem you can visit today, used as a garbage dump in Jesus' time, where trash and dead bodies were burned - thus a figurative term.
Tartarus (Greek)- a place of holding for angels who followed Satan; a term borrowed from Greek mythology.
To give you an idea of translators having a theological agenda, did you ever think about the way the proper name of God, YHWH, has been rendered as "LORD"? At the same time, the names of all and sundry pagan gods have been (improperly) rendered properly, when the God who said not to even speak their names gets short shrift. This happens because the (mis)translators had and have an agenda, and "Hell" is no different. One prop left.
Prop Four
If you care to dig into it, you will find that apart from what I have already mentioned, which eliminates both the concept and word of "Hell" from the Scriptures, all the evidence for "Hell" is based on fiction. Yes, fiction - from the Inferno of Durante degli Alighieri (Dante), to John Milton's Paradise Lost, to Mary Baxter's A Divine Revelation of Hell, everything we have to support the concept of Hell is fiction, even if it is Biblicaly-oriented faction. Every last account and discription of "Hell" is unverifiable, from epic poem, to novel, to short story, to sermon, to EweToob video. Fiction - Legend - Myth - Lies.
Heaven, yes!
Hell, no.
Other than that, Eternal Destruction or Annihilationism means that after you die, God will either leave you dead (where's the love in that?!) or resurrect you for judgment, and then kill you all over. Again, where's the love in that?
Excellent Lazarus...Excellent. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Jesrin on August 01, 2013, 12:36:41 AM
God has been working in my life in powerful, powerful ways. I can honestly say that I am not the same person I was Freshman Year. I have been profoundly changed. The Lord is amazing that way.
:thumbsup: Amen! He is working in your life, having given you spiritual new birth through belief in Jesus the Savior, now growing you in His grace and knowledge.
Annihilationism is definitely a step out of hell, and if God hadn't shown me His "plan"/intent to save all, I'd have to say the scriptures support ["at least"] annihilation more than eternal torment. Blessings on your time here, you're among friends. James.
Amen!! to all the super posts above!! And hello, Ryan :hiya:
I love how just about every time I read God's Word I find confirmation of UR. Just today in my reading it was Psalm 66:4 "All the earth shall worship Thee, and shall sing unto Thee.." (Certainly not an enforced sing it or else! :rolllol: :LH: )
And later there was Romans 9:3, where Paul wrote "I could wish myself accursed from Christ for the sake of my fellow Istraelites.." - this makes absolutely no sense if what he was referring to was "I wish I were condemned to eternal torture, or annihilation'.. really? I think not :laughing7: But to be separated from Christ, he knew, as a temporary state.. for the sake of his brethren, exchanging his place in the 1st resurrection with one in the 2nd (which will 'catch up' to the 1st, I'm absolutely certain (& in my opinion) :icon_jokercolor: :dsunny: )
God bless!!
Hello Ryan. Welcome. UR makes sense. ET does not. UR is REAL! ET is NOT! I was raised by a Baptist minister, and was taught ET all my life until the last year. I began asking God daily to teach me more about himself. Then before I knew it, "school" had begun. God started drawing me to the Truth. He has led me to where I am now, totally sold out to UR! Now, the entire plan God has for his creation falls into perspective. I will never understand all things in this life, but one thing I know - UR is the truth!
As Marie Glen said, "I love how just about every time I read God's Word I find confirmation of UR." :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 01, 2013, 05:56:38 AM
First, welcome to Tentmaker! :friendstu:
Second, we are (I think) more accustomed to dealing with ET versus UR, than ED versus UR. ET carries God's Justice too far, ED satisfies only His Justice, and UR satisfies both God's Justice and His Love.
Third, there is a vast (well, looks vast to me) literature here in the Tentmaker archives. Besides that, I'll follow Meketa's lead, and post this:
Hell is a 404 – location not found.
There are four main props of Hell, and I will knock them down in succession:
Prop One
Without the concept of the Immortality of the soul, Hell begins to get a bit shaky. It's very simple to dismiss if we look at the story of the creation of man by God. We all know it - God took some dirt, made a body, breathed into the body the Breath of Life, and that body became a living soul. To simplify:
dead body + breath of life = living soul
Now, let's reverse it:
living soul - breath of life = dead body
Perfect logic - start with the living person (soul) and kill it, so that the breath of life returns to God who gave it, and what do you have left? A dead body! So that means that when you're dead, you're dead. There is no immortal soul to go to Hell, Hades, or the Inferno, for the soul is temporal, and after death, is simply not. The same Bible which the Eternal Torture (ET) crowd likes to quote about Hell, says that "the soul [living person] that sinneth shall die." Being temporal, the soul [living person] becomes non-existant at death and there is therefore no soul at all to damn to Hell. The spirit cannot go there either, because it has returned to God who gave it. Is God going to send part of His own Spirit to Hell? God forbid! God forbid also the absurdity of sending a dead body to Hell, except in the original sense of the word. You see, an old meaning of "Hell" is as a verb, meaning to cover or conceal. For instance, in the days before refrigeration, you might keep fruits and vegetables in a root cellar, or lacking that, you might dig a trench to below the local frost line, lay straw in the bottom, place, say, potatoes on the straw, cover the potatoes with more straw, and cover the whole thing with the dug-out dirt. It was called "helling" the potatoes. When you bury a dead body, you are helling it, too. There is a very close connection between hell as concealment into the ground, and hell as the grave. There remains, if you examine all this closely, nothing to send to Hell except a dead body into the ground. If we jump forward from Genesis to the Revelation, we see that Death and Hell [the grave, actually] are both thrown into the Lake of Fire. Now, I ask you, if such a thing has happened, how can Hell still exist (if it ever existed), and how can the dead be in Hell if Death has been destroyed? Let's move on.
Prop Two
"Hell" as we have come to understand it, has come down to us, like the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, from pagan sources. Immortality of the Soul comes from Greek philosophy, but all the other trappings of Hell come from various mythologies. I don't want to elaborate too much on the Scandinavian "Hel," the Greek "Hades," or the Latin "Inferno," but you can look them up for yourself if you are not familiar with the mythology. This is how "Hell," or "the grave," became Hell, the place of eternal torment. Check any good dictionary, especially the Oxford, for information on Hell. "Hell," as I said above, is also a verb, meaning "to bury," reinforcing the "grave" usage. Even the Buddhist concept of Hell is very close to the ET version, the main difference being in the artistic style of the representation. Fiery Hells and red Devils are common in pagan mythologies. Two props down, it won't take much more.
Prop Three
This one is very simple – several words in the Bible have been translated as "Hell" improperly. A couple of hours with a Strong's or Young's Concordance should clear up this chestnut for you. Consider these correct definitions of terms used in the Bible:
Sheol (Hebrew) - grave.
Hades (Greek) - grave, place of the unconscious, place of the unknowing.
Gehenna (Greek) - a location near Jerusalem you can visit today, used as a garbage dump in Jesus' time, where trash and dead bodies were burned - thus a figurative term.
Tartarus (Greek)- a place of holding for angels who followed Satan; a term borrowed from Greek mythology.
To give you an idea of translators having a theological agenda, did you ever think about the way the proper name of God, YHWH, has been rendered as "LORD"? At the same time, the names of all and sundry pagan gods have been (improperly) rendered properly, when the God who said not to even speak their names gets short shrift. This happens because the (mis)translators had and have an agenda, and "Hell" is no different. One prop left.
Prop Four
If you care to dig into it, you will find that apart from what I have already mentioned, which eliminates both the concept and word of "Hell" from the Scriptures, all the evidence for "Hell" is based on fiction. Yes, fiction - from the Inferno of Durante degli Alighieri (Dante), to John Milton's Paradise Lost, to Mary Baxter's A Divine Revelation of Hell, everything we have to support the concept of Hell is fiction, even if it is Biblicaly-oriented faction. Every last account and discription of "Hell" is unverifiable, from epic poem, to novel, to short story, to sermon, to EweToob video. Fiction - Legend - Myth - Lies.
Heaven, yes!
Hell, no.
Other than that, Eternal Destruction or Annihilationism means that after you die, God will either leave you dead (where's the love in that?!) or resurrect you for judgment, and then kill you all over. Again, where's the love in that?
Very good,
but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.
peace.
Quote from: chuckt on August 02, 2013, 02:34:15 PM
Very good,
but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.
peace.
Good point, Chuck.
However, most ET'ers are not aware that death and "hell" are to be thrown into the lake of fire. They believe "hell" lasts forever. Just ask some of them. They actually believe "hell" and the "lake of fire" are the same thing. Then by the time you explain that to them, they are so defensive, you have lost them.
But, yes, we do need to be prepared to explain what the lake of fire really is. A few will listen. A
few.
Speaking from experience, the more I struggled with the Spirit the less I understood. Jesrin, I would not be too concerned with what you do or do not believe at this time, that is if you truly believe that Father will reveal everything in his time.
It is good to question, but imperative to keep and open mind and heart. Father told me clearly: "Don't forget Love"
If Love cannot be found in any belief, tradition or doctrine then it must be a fallacy. The problem with tradition and history as a whole, what is remembered is what is deemed important and the rest is forgotten. Just because something has been believed for 100's of years does not mean that it is factual or truthful.
Where God is, Love is :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]
Love Julie
Glad you are here. This is about catching your mind up with your heart. Internally, you already know the truth. It has been revealed to you whether you recognize it as such. You search because the truth in your heart doesn't match the information in your head, coupled with fear induced caution in acceptance of your heart revelation.
For me, it took a couple years of study before I was willing to let go. If I were you I would start with the articles on the home page. I also like Martin Zender...think some of his stuff on UR is a decent place to start if you are new to this information. Check him out on youtube...or grab some of his books. Odd, funny guy but think he nails much on the head.
When you have specific questions, post them and let us help you through them. Again, really glad you are here.
Quote from: shawn on August 02, 2013, 07:52:22 PM
Glad you are here. This is about catching your mind up with your heart. Internally, you already know the truth. It has been revealed to you whether you recognize it as such. You search because the truth in your heart doesn't match the information in your head, coupled with fear induced caution in acceptance of your heart revelation.
Thank you Shawn, :HeartThrob:
What you wrote is perfect truth. What you said about the heart knowing what your mind does not is profound in it's simplicity. :dsunny:
Love Julie
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 02, 2013, 06:40:05 PM
Quote from: chuckt on August 02, 2013, 02:34:15 PM
Very good,
but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.
peace.
Good point, Chuck.
However, most ET'ers are not aware that death and "hell" are to be thrown into the lake of fire. They believe "hell" lasts forever. Just ask some of them. They actually believe "hell" and the "lake of fire" are the same thing. Then by the time you explain that to them, they are so defensive, you have lost them.
But, yes, we do need to be prepared to explain what the lake of fire really is. A few will listen. A few.
gracious day,
been awhile since i posted here, you hit the money on the head, one of my passions on other forums is in fact, the deception of hell, and boy do they get defensive, but bless God he teaches me patience.
If we cant convince them the truth of "hell" its almost impossible to discuss the second death.
Blessings to all.
Hello,
It may or may not help but my gauge is that if it does not come up to the highest standard of love then the mind of man has put it together.
And if I, as a mere blind human can see that, then the God who is LOVE is certainly not going to be responsible for it.
There is no everlasting hell, only evil can trick the human mind into thinking such a thing. Beware the shadows!
Hi Ryan,
I was an annihilationist for twenty of my adult years before becoming convinced of eventual universal salvation seven years ago. (The book Hope Beyond Hell was very helpful.)
I salute you for already taking this giant step in the right direction (annihilationism) and being obviously able and willing to think for yourself.
Well it's been many, many months since I last posted but I did want to throw a few things out at you. First . . .I'm from Iowa to!! Second, I've said this a few years back but it's even more true now than ever and that is, you're already one of us, you just haven't "realized" it yet. The thing is, there is a collapsing of the old system as Christ is building a resurrected church and we are all living stones he's embedded within his house. So in that I'd say . . .welcome home.
I wouldn't worry a whole lot about "understanding" all of it. But I will tell you pay attention to the voice that called you hear . . .that's the same voice that's going to be unveiling this stuff to you as you grow.
May I also be so bold as to say don't rely on "proof". God is doing this through faith. He is the one revealing what can't be seen. If we rely on what we think we can see, we'll only slow down the process. Scripture is a great source when used appropriately. For me, it's not meant to be used to build a doctrine . . .that's how so many came to embrace hell in the first place. No, it's for having tangible affirmation to coincide with that invisible voice that your head can't quite wrap itself around.
For one to be "open" for a change of direction means we have to be willing to "let go" of what we "think" we know. Our minds will never be able to fathom the infinity of what Love truly is. We've adopted images of love, but few have experienced the "birthing" of His love through us. That's what's changing here . . .many are beginning to have spiritual understanding "birthed" through them due to their PERSONAL relationship with the Father . . .but in order for that, we had to break away from the mainline religion that's out there.
You're in a good place here, let the angels in this place bring the message of life and resurrection to you and in time, you will be changed.
Blessings.
Quote from: Nathan on August 03, 2013, 10:09:51 PM
Scripture is a great source when used appropriately. For me, it's not meant to be used to build a doctrine . . .that's how so many came to embrace hell in the first place.
:iagree:
The religions of the world all use their various "sacred writings" to build their doctrines. Theirs are the doctrines of
man. Same it true in the christian churches, using the holy scriptures to build their various doctrines. But are the scriptures not a doctrine to themselves - the doctrine of truth? And are not the seekers the ones who find the true doctrine? Are not the askers the ones who receive the truth? Are not the knockers
(yeah, I know - ha ha ha :mock: :laugh: :laughing7:) the ones to whom the door of the kingdom of heaven is opened?
In May I left the organized church (protestant) because I believe God was calling me out of Babylon (the place of idolatry). Yesterday, my wife (still an ET'er) invited me to come to small group at her mother's house. I debated on it, and I decided that it would be OK just to go to a small group. After all, the man teaching it has told me that neither he nor his wife believe in hell. So the fellowship was great, the food was even better. I have missed the fellowship with my church friends. BUT...when the teaching began, the study was on the church's doctrine (Baptist). The general theme was: "good Baptists believe like this..." Of course it was not long before the subject of eternal torment in hell came up, along with various other distortions of the scriptures. I was repulsed! I thought of leaving immediately, but I didn't want to hurt my wife's feelings, as she was so happy to have me there, and she was so hurt when I left the church. I began to read my bible to drown out the heresy. But the most repulsive thing about it was the teacher teaching what he does not believe. He doesn't believe in hell, but he teaches hell because it is the doctrine of his church! Excuse me? Did I hear right? Did he really teach hell? Really?
I just don't know what to think of it. I thought of writing him a letter telling him how I feel about this lack of integrity. But he is my best friend and I don't want to hurt his feelings or damage the relationship. I guess he thinks it doesn't matter because he has never studied UR. He thinks it's no big deal to simply not believe in hell. He does not understand why I left the organized church, and keeps inviting me back. He has no idea how the doctrine of hell distorts the gospel and the plan of God for his creation. He simply does not believe in hell because his two children, now grown, are atheists, and he cannot bear to think of them going to hell. I
can see his point
there.
Believing Baptist doctrine, and not believing in hell, sure leaves one in limbo! :sigh:
I can identify with this post more than you know. My daughter (31) is a devout Baptist, and my husband (says he believes in God and follows all the rules, but has not, to my knowledge, developed a relationship with the Father or Jesus) and I've been married to him for 41 years :eek: ...joking. I cannot even begin a conversation with either of them....my daughter cries and my husband just tells me to stop. Bringing this up with them once was all it took for me to keep my mouth shut and just love them. I have to accept that I'm alone in this with the exception of those here on the forum. The thought of not seeing either of them until the Day of Judgment is sad. My hope is that Father brings them into the body. It can be pretty darn lonely out here.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 05, 2013, 08:43:52 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 03, 2013, 10:09:51 PM
Scripture is a great source when used appropriately. For me, it's not meant to be used to build a doctrine . . .that's how so many came to embrace hell in the first place.
:iagree:
The religions of the world all use their various "sacred writings" to build their doctrines. Theirs are the doctrines of man. Same it true in the christian churches, using the holy scriptures to build their various doctrines. But are the scriptures not a doctrine to themselves - the doctrine of truth? And are not the seekers the ones who find the true doctrine? Are not the askers the ones who receive the truth? Are not the knockers (yeah, I know - ha ha ha :mock: :laugh: :laughing7:) the ones to whom the door of the kingdom of heaven is opened?
In May I left the organized church (protestant) because I believe God was calling me out of Babylon (the place of idolatry). Yesterday, my wife (still an ET'er) invited me to come to small group at her mother's house. I debated on it, and I decided that it would be OK just to go to a small group. After all, the man teaching it has told me that neither he nor his wife believe in hell. So the fellowship was great, the food was even better. I have missed the fellowship with my church friends. BUT...when the teaching began, the study was on the church's doctrine (Baptist). The general theme was: "good Baptists believe like this..." Of course it was not long before the subject of eternal torment in hell came up, along with various other distortions of the scriptures. I was repulsed! I thought of leaving immediately, but I didn't want to hurt my wife's feelings, as she was so happy to have me there, and she was so hurt when I left the church. I began to read my bible to drown out the heresy. But the most repulsive thing about it was the teacher teaching what he does not believe. He doesn't believe in hell, but he teaches hell because it is the doctrine of his church! Excuse me? Did I hear right? Did he really teach hell? Really?
I just don't know what to think of it. I thought of writing him a letter telling him how I feel about this lack of integrity. But he is my best friend and I don't want to hurt his feelings or damage the relationship. I guess he thinks it doesn't matter because he has never studied UR. He thinks it's no big deal to simply not believe in hell. He does not understand why I left the organized church, and keeps inviting me back. He has no idea how the doctrine of hell distorts the gospel and the plan of God for his creation. He simply does not believe in hell because his two children, now grown, are atheists, and he cannot bear to think of them going to hell. I can see his point there.
Believing Baptist doctrine, and not believing in hell, sure leaves one in limbo! :sigh:
It seems like a good opportunity for you to share the truth with your friend, bro. I'm surrounded by Catholics in my family, but they all know I don't go to church even though I study scripture. I tell my youngest brother to take our 89 year old dad to church. I've turned him on to scripture, but he's a die hard Catholic. I used to worry about the whole family going to hell before I learned about UR. I haven't been to church in a long time. Do your friend a favor, and tell him the truth. You can do it in a loving non-judgmental way.
Show him this:
The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading scripture, and the church still considers it heresy to believe scripture correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition.
There is a common misconception about "hell," an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades" literally meaning "un-perceived," or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" actually refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon.
"And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24)
The intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" is used to support the myth of "hell fire." The church, failing to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, changed scripture to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after they die.
"Hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire" because the King James Version says "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14).
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Good post TomH.
------------------------
I'm more than happy to base my doctrinal beliefs on the scriptures - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed. I think it's not only OK, but very necessary. Much better than my own imagination. I'm reminded of the Bereans. I believe it's faulty translations, our blinded eyes, and (in some cases in the hierarchy) hardened hearts that lead to gross doctrinal errors - rather than relying on the Holy Spirit to interpret, translate, and clarify the written Words of God. I believe in these times God is clarifying and revealing, while at the same time the enemy is at work in heightened deception. Powers and principalities in high places. "Interesting" times. Test all things.
Quote from: jabcat on August 06, 2013, 04:00:46 AM
Good post TomH.
------------------------
I'm more than happy to base my doctrinal beliefs on the scriptures - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed. I think it's not only OK, but very necessary. Much better than my own imagination. I'm reminded of the Bereans. I believe it's faulty translations, our blinded eyes, and (in some cases in the hierarchy) hardened hearts that lead to gross doctrinal errors - rather than relying on the Holy Spirit to interpret, translate, and clarify the written Words of God. I believe in these times God is clarifying and revealing, while at the same time the enemy is at work in heightened deception. Powers and principalities in high places. "Interesting" times. Test all things.
Amen, brother.
I agree jbb...I have a lot "Baptist" with some Pentecostal persuasion leanings...but then there are some other things that just don't fit. I wonder sometimes if I could just go to the old congregation for some praise and worship and fellowship, along with a little "structure" and Godly influence - but as you say, where and how does it all fit...
I say thank God for the World Wide Web and the Tentmaker Forum because that's where I'm getting most of my fellowship now. We're praising and worshiping God right here folks. We are the body of Christ. We are one spiritually with no bondage of time or space. We have the word of God inspired by the spirit of God, and we have each other to share that with. We all have different perspectives, but we all have the spirit of God in common.
Quote from: Tom H on August 06, 2013, 04:25:53 AM
I say thank God for the World Wide Web and the Tentmaker Forum because that's where I'm getting most of my fellowship now. We're praising and worshiping God right here folks. We are the body of Christ. We are one spiritually with no bondage of time or space. We have the word of God inspired by the spirit of God, and we have each other to share that with. We all have different perspectives, but we all have the spirit of God in common.
Amen Tom :HeartThrob: and Thank you Father :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Jesrin on August 01, 2013, 12:36:41 AM
Hello, everyone! My name is Ryan, although I often go by "Jesrin" on the web. :) I am 17 years old and currently reside in Iowa. I have been browsing Tentmaker for some time now and have been struggling with the idea of Universal Reconciliation. I finally decided that I needed to register and discuss the topic with people who have done extensive research and seem to have a strong understanding of what the Bible says about UR. While I currently do not believe in UR, I am open to learning about it and giving it fair consideration. My hope is that God, through my discussions here, will lead me to His Truth and His Peace. In all honesty, I really WANT to believe that God will one day save everyone, but I am not fully convinced yet. Both ETers and URers have strong points to support their beliefs. It just serves to make everything confusing. :dunno2:
A little about me. I have been raised in a Christian home all my life. Due to some issues with people in our church, my family was church-less for about 7 years. We "church hopped" until we found a Christian family that accepted us, loved us, and helped us grow. That was when I was 12 years old. I accepted Christ when I was young--maybe 5 or 6?--but I didn't take my relationship with Him seriously until my Freshman Year in highschool. I am currently a Senior. God has been working in my life in powerful, powerful ways. I can honestly say that I am not the same person I was Freshman Year. I have been profoundly changed. The Lord is amazing that way.
I have always struggled with the doctrine of hell. My discomfort with it was not provoked by anyone else's ideas; my objections to the idea of eternal punishment came from my own difficulties reconciling love and eternal torment. I would go to youth group and hear about Jesus, the Savior of the World. Then I would hear about hell--a place where people would go to burn forever. FOREVER. I would spend hours thinking about the FOREVER part of hell. The youth pastor described it like this: "Think of the worst pain you've ever experienced. Got it? Now imagine that pain multiplied by a billion times. That's the pain you will experience forever in hell." I couldn't believe that! I remember voicing my concerns to my mom after the fact--I think I was 12 or 13? I asked her how a loving God could sentence anyone to eternal punishment, and based upon my reading here, it seems like many others have asked the same question. I did extensive research into the subject and, after long consideration, became an Annihilationist. It was the only way I could reconcile God's justice, His love, and all the instances of hell in the Bible. That is the view I currently hold today.
I look forward to meeting all of you. I hope that, through our discussions, God will reveal His truth--not just to me, but to all of us. Thanks in advance for introducing yourselves! God bless!
- Jesrin
Hi Jesrin. You were brought to the Tentmaker Forum by the spirit of God for a good reason. The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition. It makes no sense that a loving God would torture in fire forever anybody let alone most of mankind because it simply is not true. The word "hell" is an Old English word the King James used to translate the Greek "hades" literally meaning "unseen," and it refers to the "unseen" state of a dead soul. The concept of "hell" got distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" actually refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). Christ did not use the word "hell" because he didn't speak English. When Christ referred to "Gehenna," the Jews knew he meant the dump outside the city of Jerusalem not a mythical place of torture in fire forever. The intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" is used to support the myth of "hell fire." The church, failing to suppress the word of God by killing people with fire, changed the word of God to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after they die. And "the lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because even the King James Version says "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14).
The common misconception of "hell" is a lie perpetrated by the Roman Empire to control its subjects with fear, and it was one of the lies that wasn't purged in the Protestant Reformation. A correct translation of the written word of God does not contain the words "hell" or "church." Satan's most effective deception is the church using corrupt translation and the tradition of man to invalidate the word of God.
"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)
"For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Words used in common bibles to express the concept of eternity are inaccurate translation of variations of the Greek "aion," literally translated "eon," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," which refer to a period of time not endless time. The Greek "aionion," translated as "eternal" in the King James Version, is the adjective of "aion." The adjective of a period of time can not describe endless time despite the fact that some references biased to church doctrine may say so.
The written word of God is concerned with the eons, but the eons have a consummation. Death is the last enemy to be abolished before the consummation of the eons. Then we will have unending life, but only God is eternal meaning always was and always will be. God is the source of all, and everything else had a beginning and came from God.
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)
The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God. The word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ. Those who believe the word of God regarding the reconciliation of all are accused of heresy by the church. Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain the verse that says all will be reconciled through Christ.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God? Be consoled that your loved ones who have died are reposing, not alive in hell or purgatory.
The soul is the sensation resulting from the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit.
"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
Death is a return.
"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)
The body returns to the soil.
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)
The spirit returns to God.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
And the soul returns to the "unseen."
"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)
"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)
The word of God says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
Christ alone has immortality.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
Believers will be immortalized when we are snatched away to meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), and unbelievers condemned to "the second death" will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-26).
The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)
Here is a link to a website where you'll find the best translation of the word of God that I've found available for free download. http://concordant.org/ It really makes a difference which version you read because it changes the whole story of God's ultimate plan for the universe. You'll also find a lot of good information to answer your questions on the site. God bless you, brother.
Quote from: jabcat on August 06, 2013, 04:08:49 AM
I agree jbb...I have a lot "Baptist" with some Pentecostal persuasion leanings...but then there are some other things that just don't fit. I wonder sometimes if I could just go to the old congregation for some praise and worship and fellowship, along with a little "structure" and Godly influence - but as you say, where and how does it all fit...
Sounds nice, but that's what I was trying to do Sunday night. I thought since the leader of the group did not believe in hell that I would not hear that false teaching. WRONG! And besides, there were a number of things that weren't outright wrong altogether, but
were somewhat distorted (if that makes sense). Like the teaching that if you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life. This is true, but they base that on the numerous scriptures that, if properly translated,
actually teach that belief leads to eonian life, life for the kingdom age to come, not eternal life. It comes from the mistranslation of the word aionios. This eonian life is for the "especially" saved of 1 Tim 4.10. The knowledge that we will have eternal life comes from the fact that our bodies will be sown corruptible, yet raised incorruptible and given immortality (according to Paul - 1 Cor 15.54). Besides that, there are other things that people don't normally think about, like the fact that some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services. :doh: I won't even go into the problem of idolatry
(they don't call it that, but...) in the church organizations. All that to say, I don't recommend attending praise and worship services in Babylon!
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 06, 2013, 11:26:29 PM
...some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services.
I recall that back in my SDA days, someone in an SDA magazine stated that "...you can smell the sulfur in the hymnals..." I never forgot that, and I think it is easy to see where he was coming from.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 07, 2013, 12:58:39 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 06, 2013, 11:26:29 PM
...some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services.
I recall that back in my SDA days, someone in an SDA magazine stated that "...you can smell the sulfur in the hymnals..." I never forgot that, and I think it is easy to see where he was coming from.
Sulphur?
What does this mean? :dunno2:
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 02, 2013, 06:40:05 PM
Quote from: chuckt on August 02, 2013, 02:34:15 PM
Very good,
but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.
peace.
Good point, Chuck.
However, most ET'ers are not aware that death and "hell" are to be thrown into the lake of fire. They believe "hell" lasts forever. Just ask some of them. They actually believe "hell" and the "lake of fire" are the same thing. Then by the time you explain that to them, they are so defensive, you have lost them.
But, yes, we do need to be prepared to explain what the lake of fire really is. A few will listen. A few.
It's amazing really.. what they most need is to really read the Word of God.. I'm happy I was a spiritual hermit.. reading and studying on my own.. which was reading and studying the Word, as opposed to reading, listening and studying on what other persons say about the Word. Many times I could start to read something someone wrote, and simply could not continue. It ringing so loudly untrue..
:gimmefive:
Quote from: marie glen on August 07, 2013, 08:06:17 PM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 02, 2013, 06:40:05 PM
Quote from: chuckt on August 02, 2013, 02:34:15 PM
Very good,
but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.
peace.
Good point, Chuck.
However, most ET'ers are not aware that death and "hell" are to be thrown into the lake of fire. They believe "hell" lasts forever. Just ask some of them. They actually believe "hell" and the "lake of fire" are the same thing. Then by the time you explain that to them, they are so defensive, you have lost them.
But, yes, we do need to be prepared to explain what the lake of fire really is. A few will listen. A few.
It's amazing really.. what they most need is to really read the Word of God.. I'm happy I was a spiritual hermit.. reading and studying on my own.. which was reading and studying the Word, as opposed to reading, listening and studying on what other persons say about the Word. Many times I could start to read something someone wrote, and simply could not continue. It ringing so loudly untrue..
:gimmefive:
Amen, sister. Read the word of God! And, if you have an accurate translation, it will be easier to understand.
Regarding "the lake of fire," this is my understanding.
"Hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire" because the King James Version says "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14).
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 20:10). These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie. "And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4). People die, and obviously fire kills people.
Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead ("the second death"). "The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ while believers are immortalized, but they will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
That is the difference between church doctrine and the word of God, and it is all possible because..."through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20). That verse that clearly shows universal reconciliation is even in the corrupt versions used buy the church.
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 07, 2013, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 07, 2013, 12:58:39 AM
Quote from: jbertonbounds on August 06, 2013, 11:26:29 PM
...some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services.
I recall that back in my SDA days, someone in an SDA magazine stated that "...you can smell the sulfur in the hymnals..." I never forgot that, and I think it is easy to see where he was coming from.
Sulphur?
What does this mean? :dunno2:
I think the fellow was hinting that some of the theo(il)logical ideas presented in some hymns are inspired by someone not God.
Quote from: Tom H on August 06, 2013, 04:06:53 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 06, 2013, 04:00:46 AM
Good post TomH.
------------------------
I'm more than happy to base my doctrinal beliefs on the scriptures - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed. I think it's not only OK, but very necessary. Much better than my own imagination. I'm reminded of the Bereans. I believe it's faulty translations, our blinded eyes, and (in some cases in the hierarchy) hardened hearts that lead to gross doctrinal errors - rather than relying on the Holy Spirit to interpret, translate, and clarify the written Words of God. I believe in these times God is clarifying and revealing, while at the same time the enemy is at work in heightened deception. Powers and principalities in high places. "Interesting" times. Test all things.
Amen, brother.
Yeah . . I don't support that much anymore. I base my doctrine on relationship . . .the Word that speaks within me sets the tone and seats me at the table . . .from there, when I read Scripture, it has a whole other dimension to it. If I base it on what I read, I'm essentially building according to what my mind interprets, that seems to contradict the instruction we were given to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. Everyone has an interpretation and if it's based on their amount of time studying, reasoning and reckoning, the chances are strong that what they'll end up with will have to be torn back down again because it wasn't the Father who built it, but it was the mind of men . . .good intentions mind you, but unreliable results.
I've learned first-hand what it means to "hold on to things of this earth loosely". I used to think that it meant houses and cars and such . . .but I believe it goes much deeper than that . . .hold on to what you believe loosely because as we grow, we let go of what got us here so we can embrace what will take us "there". The revivals of old were wonderful for that time and place back then, but I'd never pray for that old time revival to return to where I am today . . .daily manna . . .a fresh word . . .a new morning . . .everything is a process. Even doctrinal matters. The issue I have with traditional religions is that they've painted themselves into such a corner that they can't move forward without admitting what they've been embracing and forcing on others all this time has lost it's savor . . . Traditional denominations can't admit that maybe what they project is off-base. But I can as and individual . . .and I have . . many times. Too many that I'd like to admit to. But that's all part of our relationship . . . the Scripture still is very much so relevant . . .but not from a literal standard as much as a spiritual one. Either way, it's still a Word of Life.
I agree that the scriptures are spiritual in nature and a Word of Life, and that we have to have a relationship 1:1 with Jesus Messiah.
I don't see the scriptures - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed - separate from relationship or walking in the Spirit. I believe it all ties together integrally.
I'd like to hear from Jesrin, the original poster on this thread. This was his only post so I'm curious. :dontknow: