So You Say Prove To Me There Is A God

[MusicLover123]

I was in Newport, Rhode Island, taking the ride down the famous street of mansions.. but it wasn't the mansions, I was interested in. It was the trees!

Well, I would have thought the most important thing to pay attention to was the grass!  :laughing7:

Have you ever observed different houses, tried looking into them, and wondered what their lives are like? Just me?

I'm not a bad singer or dancer, or writer.. of songs, poems, stories.. but just imagine how much more so when in a perfect state..

In our perfect state, do you think we will be perfect in everything, or will we have specific talents and do some things better than others? What will we be doing for all eternity? The same things now but expanded? I know someone mentioned a whole bunch of new things, but what does this entail? Building houses? Creating life? Making cake?

We could learn all musical instruments.. And much easier than we can now..

So, in regards to this, how will the physical part of reality look? Say if we were using musical instruments, and I pick up a flute. If I pick it up, will it fall through my hands? Or will it only do that if I choose to? If there is an ant on the ground, as death is swallowed up by immortality, if I step on one, will it die?

:Peace2:

[CST]

Amen.. Life can be very interesting now.. look at all the things we can learn.. astronomy, science, history.. books to read.. crafts to do.. things to build..Which reminds me, one of the first things the prophecies talk about is rebuilding ruins..

When I watch old westerns I always look at the towns and think how amazing it would have been to build your own little town.. (But then of course my family and I are into camping, where we make tiny camper towns for a long weekend or something, lol.) ..But just imagine..

Then there's this #1 - no more bombardment of advertising. life without ads.. :cloud9: And #2 - no more mountains of regulations from big bro human.. a fee and a permit or license for this, that and everything.. And if you build a house, all things up to code and regulated ad nauseum.. (but all will trustworthy so the skies the limit?)

But one thing I really look forward to? Getting acquainted with and getting to know the animals! Friends with lions and tigers and bears... oh my! I think our dog and long haired cat is impressive, just wait til I can hug a lion! Get to know an elephant.. giraffe..

Life is so limited and hindered by the simple fact of sin and all kind of imperfection.. And, I hear we only use about 1/10th of our brain we have now.. This is why I can never get my teeth into the idea of being a mere ghost, and forever no less, like so many nonbelievers and believers alike, seem to believe.. (I agree, how boring!) But I think He created because He wanted to.. And I think it's glorious already, we really cannot appreciate how awesome it will be when all things are ruled by perfection, life and love - By Him! (As a matter of fact, the physical-ness is what makes sin so prone.. it's like we have to be inoculated - all resistance totally in us.)

And people! Perhaps I should think of them first! What a huge family! So many folks and families and tribes, to get acquainted with! Some folks in the world think it would be better if all the ethnicities blended and became one with no differences.. What! God's human family is made up of beautiful branches! If any one were to somehow disappear! WhAt a loss!! :faint:

I'm not a bad singer or dancer, or writer.. of songs, poems, stories.. but just imagine how much more so when in a perfect state..

I was in Newport, Rhode Island, taking the ride down the famous street of mansions.. but it wasn't the mansions, I was interested in. It was the trees! Trees brought in from Europe or elsewhere.. some awesome types I had never seen before.. some huge... There's so much to this planet that we never, ever see.. Amaazing things..

Then I do lean toward thinking eventually other planets may be brought to life.. Why not? We will all be like Jesus and He was able to ascend to the Father and then came back..

Gardening with no noxious or invading weeds :cloud9: How many varieties of flowers are there? ...Plucking twelve manner of fruit from trees in the twelve seasons.. We could learn all musical instruments.. And much easier than we can now..
    :Peace2:

Hmm, question: when is a weed not a weed? When it's appreciated.

I'm not absolutely sure I know what you're saying about the weeds really but if you're saying there's  no weeds in Heaven I'll have to stop you there. I don't believe got actually created weeds just to be weeds because that idea would seem to support sentiments that in turn support ET or ED proponents (remember the wheat and the tares).

You're attitude to adverts seems to be in a similar vein yet it's hard not to be more sympathetic to that ads are generally annoying and designed to manipulate and yet they are still expressions of creativity, perhaps slightly less so on your side of the Atlantic.

I believe you've probably heard that we only use 1/10th of our brain, I've heard it too but I've also learned that, while it's good for sci-fi, it's not true we lose all of brain pretty much.

I doubt anyone will get huge leaps in talent in Heaven, although it may be possible to learn more easily but I don't think perfection is measured like that and it certainly isn't ho God distributes talent. I can't imagine everyone suddenly being equally good at everything it seems utterly pointless.

And I'm not sure we need to wait until we reach Heaven to be friends with the animals, some people are pretty good at it already, it is an interesting thought though do you include parasitic animals in that?

I was in Newport, Rhode Island, taking the ride down the famous street of mansions.. but it wasn't the mansions, I was interested in. It was the trees!

Well, I would have thought the most important thing to pay attention to was the grass!  :laughing7:

Have you ever observed different houses, tried looking into them, and wondered what their lives are like? Just me?

I'm not a bad singer or dancer, or writer.. of songs, poems, stories.. but just imagine how much more so when in a perfect state..

In our perfect state, do you think we will be perfect in everything, or will we have specific talents and do some things better than others? What will we be doing for all eternity? The same things now but expanded? I know someone mentioned a whole bunch of new things, but what does this entail? Building houses? Creating life? Making cake?

We could learn all musical instruments.. And much easier than we can now..

So, in regards to this, how will the physical part of reality look? Say if we were using musical instruments, and I pick up a flute. If I pick it up, will it fall through my hands? Or will it only do that if I choose to? If there is an ant on the ground, as death is swallowed up by immortality, if I step on one, will it die?

:Peace2:

I'm fairly sure the imperishable bodies are solid at least as much as they need to be to interact with things.

When you step on the ant I imagine one of the following things will happen, either it will be crushed and immediately reconstituted (if that's the right word) elsewhere or it just won't happen you'll simply know not to put your foot there and it'll know to get out of the way if you do.

[marie glen]

Hmm, question: when is a weed not a weed? When it's appreciated.

Absolutely! What I meant was noxious weeds, thorns and thistles veritably choking the garden.. Like Genesis 3 when the Father said "cursed is the ground. in toil shall you eat of it and it shall bring forth thorns and thistles.. Though I haven't looked up the interlinear for the words originally used..

I'm not absolutely sure I know what you're saying about the weeds really but if you're saying there's  no weeds in Heaven I'll have to stop you there. I don't believe got actually created weeds just to be weeds because that idea would seem to support sentiments that in turn support ET or ED proponents (remember the wheat and the tares).

You're attitude to adverts seems to be in a similar vein yet it's hard not to be more sympathetic to that ads are generally annoying and designed to manipulate and yet they are still expressions of creativity, perhaps slightly less so on your side of the Atlantic.

The state of Vermont has no billboards :cloud9: the rest of our cities and some landscapes, flooded (and I'm married to a man who watches television whenever he is home, which now that he's retired is a lot.. and lots of commercials.. when it's up to me, I find it relaxing to watch a show or movie sans commercials..

I doubt anyone will get huge leaps in talent in Heaven, although it may be possible to learn more easily but I don't think perfection is measured like that and it certainly isn't ho God distributes talent. I can't imagine everyone suddenly being equally good at everything it seems utterly pointless.

Actually, that's not exactly what I meant that we would all of a sudden be able to do all things.. what fun would that be? But we will have plenty of time (as long as there is space and matter/universe, even if of 'higher'/finer substance, there will, imo, be time) And we will not be working so much of our life and time in order to pay bills..

And I'm not sure we need to wait until we reach Heaven to be friends with the animals, some people are pretty good at it already, it is an interesting thought though do you include parasitic animals in that?

I consider myself somewhat good at that too.. but the lions, tigers, and bears, etc will bite or eat me if I get too friendly.. but prophecy says the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow and (so subdued shall all things be) the young child will be able to play at the entrance to the viper's nest?/den? So I believe there will be utter perfection.. We do not of course know all the details :laughing7: not by a long shot! But people will "abide under their own vine and fruit tree and no one will bother them.. He will judge between strong nations and they will beat their weapons into plows(hares) and gardening tools" - if we take such literally.. Glory! God created Paradise. Or that is - is creating paradise. Did He create the vast universe for nothing.. There are so many creatures and plants, we know nothing of.. Such a multitude of creativity and diversity.. I think man lives in cities he himself has built, shutting ourselves and our minds indoors in boxes and we have become blind to God's Glorious works.. So when He says the lion will straw like the ox, we think "what could that really mean?" :doh:

I was in Newport, Rhode Island, taking the ride down the famous street of mansions.. but it wasn't the mansions, I was interested in. It was the trees!

Well, I would have thought the most important thing to pay attention to was the grass!  :laughing7:

Have you ever observed different houses, tried looking into them, and wondered what their lives are like? Just me?

I like to look inside houses to see the houses.. I'm a real homebody.. love homes.. though I do sometimes wonder about, sometimes pray for the people within.. :gsmile:

I'm not a bad singer or dancer, or writer.. of songs, poems, stories.. but just imagine how much more so when in a perfect state..

In our perfect state, do you think we will be perfect in everything, or will we have specific talents and do some things better than others? What will we be doing for all eternity? The same things now but expanded? I know someone mentioned a whole bunch of new things, but what does this entail? Building houses? Creating life? Making cake?

"There will be a highway for those left.." one of the prophets.. - so that will be one thing going on..
I know bible prophecy talks about rebuilding ruins.. bringing Hebrew folks back to Israel.. and I guess much of it may depend on what we're doing now during this life.. Will we mostly be learning? or will we also be teaching? I think we should be learning now.. in training?

What we don't learn now, then teaching survivors after apocalyse and ET/ECT folks, I would think.. After all Jesus said we should provide meat for members of the household even now.. And how "He broke bread, handed it to the disciples and the disciples handed out to the people.."

Then after the 1000 years all those millions of folks not yet saved, some never having heard anything about Jesus, Yhvh or the bible.. Rising still in their sins, some victims of horrors we can only imagine.. many rising in trauma... And many just regular folks.. (And what about the millions of babies aborted? Surely they will rise too and need some care!?) Some of all this from verses, but also logic.. We can think, what would it be like to rise not yet saved? I don't believe they wake up and God tosses them to a lof.. (Sounds a bit cold and impersonal to me.) I think lof comes (logically, it seems to me) after judgment day and it is the last verse of the chapter :) It just seems so much logical and orderly to me, if judgment day is a great day of review, really hammering home this unavoidable lesson we are all learning.. I'm a BIG fan of Logic (logos?) If God chooses who comes to the faith during this life, and not because we deserve it!! So... why would those others have to be cleansed by literal fire? Or why would their repentance and reconciliation be so much more stringent than any who come to the faith during this life, since God alone chose? Makes no sense to me... Sure it's easier to say the unsaved will rise and go to the lof for cleansing, which rings of purgatory.. And it's certainly worlds better than the ET message! But still, I can't believe it. I actually believe all will repent and be reconciled before then -- I mean during judgment 'day'. Perhaps there will be a totally hard case hold out, that not believing by end of that 'day' will go to the lof for purification, but I think the lof was made for the devil and his angels..

I think of all the stories.. of each and every person who has lived.. Quite a bit, to keep us interested right there.. There's the individual stories, and there's also the national and collective stories of nations, lands, tribes, and ages, or that is throughout all earth's ages.. (I believe Judgment 'Day' - reviewing all these things will last about 500 years - after all, why let all these lessons go to waste? When they can so easily be used to really hammer home the lesson He is teaching.)

We could learn all musical instruments.. And much easier than we can now..

So, in regards to this, how will the physical part of reality look? Say if we were using musical instruments, and I pick up a flute. If I pick it up, will it fall through my hands? Or will it only do that if I choose to? If there is an ant on the ground, as death is swallowed up by immortality, if I step on one, will it die?

:Peace2:

I'm fairly sure the imperishable bodies are solid at least as much as they need to be to interact with things.

    :iagree:

       I surely hope so. Wouldn't it be terrible to be a mere ghost? I know there will be the love, the awe and the ambrosia that is God's Presence - and no minimizing of that awesome wonder we can only glimpse now, but I can't think that is the totality of what He is creating.. The very important thing.. the people.. But I think He created a beautiful and wondrous creation, we actually only get a glimpse of so far.. Being so cut off.. and busy..

[CST]

Hmm, question: when is a weed not a weed? When it's appreciated.

Absolutely! What I meant was noxious weeds, thorns and thistles veritably choking the garden.. Like Genesis 3 when the Father said "cursed is the ground. in toil shall you eat of it and it shall bring forth thorns and thistles.. Though I haven't looked up the interlinear for the words originally used..

I'm not absolutely sure I know what you're saying about the weeds really but if you're saying there's  no weeds in Heaven I'll have to stop you there. I don't believe got actually created weeds just to be weeds because that idea would seem to support sentiments that in turn support ET or ED proponents (remember the wheat and the tares).

You're attitude to adverts seems to be in a similar vein yet it's hard not to be more sympathetic to that ads are generally annoying and designed to manipulate and yet they are still expressions of creativity, perhaps slightly less so on your side of the Atlantic.

The state of Vermont has no billboards :cloud9: the rest of our cities and some landscapes, flooded (and I'm married to a man who watches television whenever he is home, which now that he's retired is a lot.. and lots of commercials.. when it's up to me, I find it relaxing to watch a show or movie sans commercials..

I doubt anyone will get huge leaps in talent in Heaven, although it may be possible to learn more easily but I don't think perfection is measured like that and it certainly isn't ho God distributes talent. I can't imagine everyone suddenly being equally good at everything it seems utterly pointless.

Actually, that's not exactly what I meant that we would all of a sudden be able to do all things.. what fun would that be? But we will have plenty of time (as long as there is space and matter/universe, even if of 'higher'/finer substance, there will, imo, be time) And we will not be working so much of our life and time in order to pay bills..

And I'm not sure we need to wait until we reach Heaven to be friends with the animals, some people are pretty good at it already, it is an interesting thought though do you include parasitic animals in that?

I consider myself somewhat good at that too.. but the lions, tigers, and bears, etc will bite or eat me if I get too friendly.. but prophecy says the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow and (so subdued shall all things be) the young child will be able to play at the entrance to the viper's nest?/den? So I believe there will be utter perfection.. We do not of course know all the details :laughing7: not by a long shot! But people will "abide under their own vine and fruit tree and no one will bother them.. He will judge between strong nations and they will beat their weapons into plows(hares) and gardening tools" - if we take such literally.. Glory! God created Paradise. Or that is - is creating paradise. Did He create the vast universe for nothing.. There are so many creatures and plants, we know nothing of.. Such a multitude of creativity and diversity.. I think man lives in cities he himself has built, shutting ourselves and our minds indoors in boxes and we have become blind to God's Glorious works.. So when He says the lion will straw like the ox, we think "what could that really mean?" :doh:

I was in Newport, Rhode Island, taking the ride down the famous street of mansions.. but it wasn't the mansions, I was interested in. It was the trees!

Well, I would have thought the most important thing to pay attention to was the grass!  :laughing7:

Have you ever observed different houses, tried looking into them, and wondered what their lives are like? Just me?

I like to look inside houses to see the houses.. I'm a real homebody.. love homes.. though I do sometimes wonder about, sometimes pray for the people within.. :gsmile:

I'm not a bad singer or dancer, or writer.. of songs, poems, stories.. but just imagine how much more so when in a perfect state..

In our perfect state, do you think we will be perfect in everything, or will we have specific talents and do some things better than others? What will we be doing for all eternity? The same things now but expanded? I know someone mentioned a whole bunch of new things, but what does this entail? Building houses? Creating life? Making cake?

"There will be a highway for those left.." one of the prophets.. - so that will be one thing going on..
I know bible prophecy talks about rebuilding ruins.. bringing Hebrew folks back to Israel.. and I guess much of it may depend on what we're doing now during this life.. Will we mostly be learning? or will we also be teaching? I think we should be learning now.. in training?

What we don't learn now, then teaching survivors after apocalyse and ET/ECT folks, I would think.. After all Jesus said we should provide meat for members of the household even now.. And how "He broke bread, handed it to the disciples and the disciples handed out to the people.."

Then after the 1000 years all those millions of folks not yet saved, some never having heard anything about Jesus, Yhvh or the bible.. Rising still in their sins, some victims of horrors we can only imagine.. many rising in trauma... And many just regular folks.. (And what about the millions of babies aborted? Surely they will rise too and need some care!?) Some of all this from verses, but also logic.. We can think, what would it be like to rise not yet saved? I don't believe they wake up and God tosses them to a lof.. (Sounds a bit cold and impersonal to me.) I think lof comes (logically, it seems to me) after judgment day and it is the last verse of the chapter :) It just seems so much logical and orderly to me, if judgment day is a great day of review, really hammering home this unavoidable lesson we are all learning.. I'm a BIG fan of Logic (logos?) If God chooses who comes to the faith during this life, and not because we deserve it!! So... why would those others have to be cleansed by literal fire? Or why would their repentance and reconciliation be so much more stringent than any who come to the faith during this life, since God alone chose? Makes no sense to me... Sure it's easier to say the unsaved will rise and go to the lof for cleansing, which rings of purgatory.. And it's certainly worlds better than the ET message! But still, I can't believe it. I actually believe all will repent and be reconciled before then -- I mean during judgment 'day'. Perhaps there will be a totally hard case hold out, that not believing by end of that 'day' will go to the lof for purification, but I think the lof was made for the devil and his angels..

I think of all the stories.. of each and every person who has lived.. Quite a bit, to keep us interested right there.. There's the individual stories, and there's also the national and collective stories of nations, lands, tribes, and ages, or that is throughout all earth's ages.. (I believe Judgment 'Day' - reviewing all these things will last about 500 years - after all, why let all these lessons go to waste? When they can so easily be used to really hammer home the lesson He is teaching.)

We could learn all musical instruments.. And much easier than we can now..

So, in regards to this, how will the physical part of reality look? Say if we were using musical instruments, and I pick up a flute. If I pick it up, will it fall through my hands? Or will it only do that if I choose to? If there is an ant on the ground, as death is swallowed up by immortality, if I step on one, will it die?

:Peace2:

I'm fairly sure the imperishable bodies are solid at least as much as they need to be to interact with things.

    :iagree:

       I surely hope so. Wouldn't it be terrible to be a mere ghost? I know there will be the love, the awe and the ambrosia that is God's Presence - and no minimizing of that awesome wonder we can only glimpse now, but I can't think that is the totality of what He is creating.. The very important thing.. the people.. But I think He created a beautiful and wondrous creation, we actually only get a glimpse of so far.. Being so cut off.. and busy..

Yeah, sometimes we should probably take interlinears with a pinch of salt I know they can be useful even I know and do so, but I also suspect that they often give the impression they are less ignorant than they actually are especially with regards to Hebrew and Aramaic which is very tricky. Greek is less of a problem it seems.

Well I'm British so I can watch several channels virtually commercial free but wicked business people are trying to kill that off. That said my experience of both tells me the product that you get is different depending on whether it has ads in it or not so they do have their uses.

Some of us will be working if we're making more creative stuff that's still a form of work I just imagine the chore-like bits will disappear. That said work has such a rewarding quality if you can get if right (and aren't a wretched good-for-nothing like me) I doubt all the chores will vanish or the rewarding aspect may go too.

Yeah, but some people have managed to be friends with even things like bears and lions. At least until they did something provocatively foolish and were killed. "what could that really mean?" Well, that's rather the question isn't is? I'm fairly sure there's rather a lot of possible answers.

The fate of aborted babies is a major theological problem. A good deal of them were fetuses when they died and we would expect them to have the same level of metal development. They'd also need a womb or the equivalent to develop in. I'm not even sure if God ever bothered to give aborted babies a soul knowing full well they wouldn't come to term.

Your view of Judgement Day is another reason to discount the idea of having all the other possible universes meet in the same place, with an infinite number of people it would never be finished.

And finally... agrees!

[marie glen]

The fate of aborted babies is a major theological problem. A good deal of them were fetuses when they died and we would expect them to have the same level of metal development. They'd also need a womb or the equivalent to develop in. I'm not even sure if God ever bothered to give aborted babies a soul knowing full well they wouldn't come to term.

Your view of Judgement Day is another reason to discount the idea of having all the other possible universes meet in the same place, with an infinite number of people it would never be finished.

   :faint: I never thought of that! ...that's why I think God engineered things so all "in heaven and earth" would learn this lesson (of good and evil / life and death?) all together.. I mean if each one became imperfect (aka, sinners) in their own time.. that would take quite a while too!

Souls in fetuses.. I actually don't believe in an immortal or otherwise 'soul'.. but soul as psyche and individual.. "God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul" and I believe there's a verse that calls animals living souls(?) "dust thou art and to dust shall you return" and it's "with what sort of body shall they rise" not "what sort of body shall they be reunited with" (imo, that is) ...So fetuses.. certainly not very developed.. So very tiny. ...Or just a fetus, I never thought about that! ..yet a life taken.. if I'd been done away with when a fetus..

And that's another reason I wouldn't believe in multiple universes/dimensions.. nor believe in a humanity before Genesis 1 - if you've ever heard that theory? that the "chaos" wasn't just the elements, but the result of great war..

I have a friend who believes that.. and next time I see him, I want to mention how it actually makes excellent sense that such actually occurred as, what a witness!! It would be like "see.. if you wander away from God - life and source of -  this is the only way it can ever end.. in apocalypse (in its modern usage of crash and destruction) and nothingness.. But! If that were the scenario I do not believe He who is Love could let all those people simply perish.. And it says humans die once.. so it wouldn't be a case of each one of us going through this twice, with the second time, being with God's intervention to "save the world" and "draw all to Jesus".
    :Peace2:

[CST]

You don't believe in a soul? Yes, you do. The soul is the bit of you that when your perishable body, well, perishes God will take out and put in your imperishable body. That's your soul. You may believe it ceases to be when your perishable body goes the only way it can but, while that may mean you lose awareness for a time it will, at the very least continue, to exist in the knowledge of God.

That said if you say you don't believe in the soul then presumably to can hold that the term 'living soul' may not, in fact, be an accurate translation of the terms involved. As I mentioned above Hebrew is a difficult language it pretty much impossible to know how much baggage that we have supplied to our translations by using words that contain baggage that the original language probably didn't even recognize. Whether or not this is really one of those words I'm not so sure.

On the same matter therefore the fetus's 'breath of life' may be being supplied entirely by the mother for much of the time it's in the womb.  There's good reason to believe this because, obviously, if you even ruptured the umbilical cord prematurely it would die. Another reason to ask the question of when the fetus becomes a conscious thinking being and then, therefore a person (or even animal) God could save. This is what I meant when I questioned if the fetus has a soul. If it hasn't reached a stage of development where it has some form of conscious awareness of its environment I'm not sure how God can save it. But there's a lot of stuff about God's capabilities I'm not sure of so that may not say very much.

Hmm, I don't believe in the great war. When people invoke that they tend to invoke the pagan religions of Israel's neighboring nations which the Genesis account is slightly similar to and therefore, they claim, borrows from those stories. The big difference being Israel's claim to monotheism and the greatness of their God, Yahweh. The only reasons for Israel to keep any reference to those stories would be as revised versions allegorizing how God 'conquered' all their gods. Not that their gods every actually existed for God to conquer but I think you can get the point.

Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment (although given the nature of what I'm about to say that seems like a strange expression). In theory that 'do-over' you suggest is just possible if we imagine that the verb 'die' to include all the negative associations associated with the death Adam introduced into the world rather than just the physical act of dying. Heck, it could ever if it does I don't know what a 'do-over' would look like. The idea is emotional attractive to me given that I feel like I'm dying that 'once' every second at the moment but it's not rationally appealing because it seems to be kind of a cop out that would utterly invalidate the 'dress rehearsal' that this life would be in those circumstances.

[marie glen]

I should rather say I don't believe we have an "immortal soul" or what I would call inherent immortality.. I do surely believe in the psyche, the mind, the individual personality.. I don't think of it as leaving this body, and going to another, but I believe the whole person rises with the body no longer perishable, but perfect and we will have "put on immortality".. and the body we rise with may be of a 'higher' or of a more 'finer' substance.. Until then I believe the dead sleep in the grave.. a slumber "in Jesus" but I think of it as like a bed with a gravestone.. like seeds planted in the earth.. die a husk, rise a flower (lol, so to speak :laughing7: )

h----|  haha, I tried to draw a grave with headboard (combo bed/grave) =  :grave: = waiting for Jesus' voice to wake one up..
   God bless! :Peace2:

[CST]

That makes more sense except can you do one where the placard reads: "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" (Rev. 6:10).

Because given your attraction to Revelation and your general belief in the literal reading of the Bible I'm not sure how you explain that given your views on the soul. Rev. 6:9-11 being the whole passage at issue here.

[DavidFord]

4. Miracles - There are countless miracles that have happened throughout the ages. So many things that medical science can't explain. In fact there are tons of things that plain science can't explain on its own either.

The body image on the Shroud of Turin is one example of a miracle.

[eaglesway]

If Jesus was raised from the dead, when did He become immortal? To be immortal is to be beyond the reach of death, but death could not hold Him because He had no sin, therefore the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law. So immortality can only exist where there is no sin and then of course- there is no law. Fear has torment so wherever sin and death and the law are there is torment but perfect peace and joy unspeakable are where perfect love abides. Perfect love casts out all fear. God is love and God will be all in all so there will be no sin, no law, no death- just a new creature in Christ,

"Behold I am making all things new!" Rev 20:5

If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things have passed away, Behold(understand, comprehend) all things become new. 2Cor 5:17

God's perfect plan is "the gathering together into one of all in Christ * Eph 1:9-11 and that plan was conceived before the foundation of the world.

Was Adam immortal before he ate of the tree? I think so, because immortality is nothing more than being in the all in all- in perfect union with God. When did Adam die? When He ate. When He lost that communion.

Jesus destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light( 2 Tim 1:10) and when will death be swallowed up? "When this mortal "puts on" immortality. (1 Cor 15:53)

So maybe, immortality was "taken off" by sin in Adam and "put on" by righteousness in Christ.

"As in Adam all die(mortality), so also in Christ shall all be made alive(immortality)". 1Cor 15

" For if by the transgression of the one the many died((mortality), much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many(immortality)." Rom 5

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one(mortality), much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life(immortality) through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5

Each of us was created a soul, then died as children of Adam. That which was will be created anew by the Father, the great Potter, in the image of Christ, filled with the divine nature in union with Him, breathed a living spirit in newness of life, raised immortal. Transformed in the fire. No one knows what the "glories" will be.

God always knew and planned, according to His kind intention He purposed in Him(Jesus) that all would be restored, united to life eternal in the "all in all"- immortal. That every single one who died through separation(sin) would be made alive through righteousness(love).

 

I think it is possible to limit discussions to 2 polarizing parameters of religious orthodoxy to the extent that an assumption evolves that the "truth" is one or the other. I think that is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. "The truth", as it is in the wisdom and knowledge of God and the revelation of the Spirit transcends and exists beyond the potential viewpoints of religious orthodoxy so that what we fight to defend as truth is virtually our "blinders", keeping the bit in our mouths and preventing us from looking to the right or left. It is never so clear from the mortal view but seen through a glass darkly.

He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Acts 17

SO God appointed our time and habitation so that we would "grope" for Him. Nothing so clear as religionists often define the journey. God is proving Himself to man, and needs no one to prove Him. We announce, herald, and portray His nature. He gathers all and subjects the adversaries, as He gathered and subjected us- by grace through faith(a gift) the children of Abraham are born.


Were we "created" immortal? Or were we created with the potential for immortality? In Adam we experienced death, termination, futility, limitation. In Christ we will experience divine exponentially multiplying grace, being filled up to all the fulness of God- and that is the source of our immortality- that connection, that union, like a branch in a vine or a member in a body.

The question is moot because in all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.


We are a kind of first fruits of His creation.
The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God
All will be gathered into one in Christ

It is that oneness that will be the source of immortality by the breath of life that is in Him by nature and in us because of grace and will be in all because...

He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet.

How will they be subjected?  By the revelation of the cross of Christ (Col 1:15-20) through which every principality and power is "disarmed".

Into what are they subjected? Into the love of God because God is love and God will be all in all and we are the first manifestation of that union which will gather all into restoration, setting the whole creation free from futility.

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

SO God, as it says in Romans 8, subjected the whole creation to futility, by subjecting it to man, and then expelling man from immortality, to learn through chaos and corruption and futility, that God is love, through the image of Christ crucified, and then gather all mankind back into immortality by subjection to Christ which is the "glorious liberty of the children of God" because it is union with perfect love, which casts out fear, and removes all torment, because when you are "filled up to all the fulness of God" there is only love, joy, peace, righteousness, kindness, compassion.... no room for death or sin, hence no need for law anymore.

:laughing7: Just rambling through fields of glory. God always knew what He was doing and has been doing it ever since.

[Patinak]

:laughing7: Just rambling through fields of glory. God always knew what He was doing and has been doing it ever since.

That was some might fine "rambling"!

[eaglesway]

Oh the scriptures are so wonderful and His plan so great- we are all so small, just wanderers, strangers, pilgrims- the sheep of His pasture.

Thank God for the Spirit that makes us one.

[Dandelion]

Amen, EW.              :dsunny:

D. 

[marie glen]

Oh the scriptures are so wonderful and His plan so great- we are all so small, just wanderers, strangers, pilgrims- the sheep of His pasture.

Thank God for the Spirit that makes us one.

Amen! ...and just this morning I was reflecting on a verse that concludes with "and you are my children" (in psalm 83? Contemporary English Version) - that just seemed to fit well with this comment :gsmile: and "the sheep of His pasture.."

..be like little children.. His Spirit makes all one..
   :cloud9: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

EW (quote)

:laughing7: Just rambling through fields of glory. God always knew what He was doing and has been doing it ever since.

Amen to this post too! Some veRy good things brought out! :thumbsup:

[CST]

If Jesus was raised from the dead, when did He become immortal? To be immortal is to be beyond the reach of death, but death could not hold Him because He had no sin, therefore the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law. So immortality can only exist where there is no sin and then of course- there is no law. Fear has torment so wherever sin and death and the law are there is torment but perfect peace and joy unspeakable are where perfect love abides. Perfect love casts out all fear. God is love and God will be all in all so there will be no sin, no law, no death- just a new creature in Christ,

"Behold I am making all things new!" Rev 20:5

If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things have passed away, Behold(understand, comprehend) all things become new. 2Cor 5:17

God's perfect plan is "the gathering together into one of all in Christ * Eph 1:9-11 and that plan was conceived before the foundation of the world.

Was Adam immortal before he ate of the tree? I think so, because immortality is nothing more than being in the all in all- in perfect union with God. When did Adam die? When He ate. When He lost that communion.

Jesus destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light( 2 Tim 1:10) and when will death be swallowed up? "When this mortal "puts on" immortality. (1 Cor 15:53)

So maybe, immortality was "taken off" by sin in Adam and "put on" by righteousness in Christ.

"As in Adam all die(mortality), so also in Christ shall all be made alive(immortality)". 1Cor 15

" For if by the transgression of the one the many died((mortality), much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many(immortality)." Rom 5

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one(mortality), much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life(immortality) through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5

Each of us was created a soul, then died as children of Adam. That which was will be created anew by the Father, the great Potter, in the image of Christ, filled with the divine nature in union with Him, breathed a living spirit in newness of life, raised immortal. Transformed in the fire. No one knows what the "glories" will be.

God always knew and planned, according to His kind intention He purposed in Him(Jesus) that all would be restored, united to life eternal in the "all in all"- immortal. That every single one who died through separation(sin) would be made alive through righteousness(love).

 

I think it is possible to limit discussions to 2 polarizing parameters of religious orthodoxy to the extent that an assumption evolves that the "truth" is one or the other. I think that is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. "The truth", as it is in the wisdom and knowledge of God and the revelation of the Spirit transcends and exists beyond the potential viewpoints of religious orthodoxy so that what we fight to defend as truth is virtually our "blinders", keeping the bit in our mouths and preventing us from looking to the right or left. It is never so clear from the mortal view but seen through a glass darkly.

He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' Acts 17

SO God appointed our time and habitation so that we would "grope" for Him. Nothing so clear as religionists often define the journey. God is proving Himself to man, and needs no one to prove Him. We announce, herald, and portray His nature. He gathers all and subjects the adversaries, as He gathered and subjected us- by grace through faith(a gift) the children of Abraham are born.


Were we "created" immortal? Or were we created with the potential for immortality? In Adam we experienced death, termination, futility, limitation. In Christ we will experience divine exponentially multiplying grace, being filled up to all the fulness of God- and that is the source of our immortality- that connection, that union, like a branch in a vine or a member in a body.

The question is moot because in all wisdom and insight He made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.


We are a kind of first fruits of His creation.
The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the children of God
All will be gathered into one in Christ

It is that oneness that will be the source of immortality by the breath of life that is in Him by nature and in us because of grace and will be in all because...

He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet.

How will they be subjected?  By the revelation of the cross of Christ (Col 1:15-20) through which every principality and power is "disarmed".

Into what are they subjected? Into the love of God because God is love and God will be all in all and we are the first manifestation of that union which will gather all into restoration, setting the whole creation free from futility.

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

SO God, as it says in Romans 8, subjected the whole creation to futility, by subjecting it to man, and then expelling man from immortality, to learn through chaos and corruption and futility, that God is love, through the image of Christ crucified, and then gather all mankind back into immortality by subjection to Christ which is the "glorious liberty of the children of God" because it is union with perfect love, which casts out fear, and removes all torment, because when you are "filled up to all the fulness of God" there is only love, joy, peace, righteousness, kindness, compassion.... no room for death or sin, hence no need for law anymore.

:laughing7: Just rambling through fields of glory. God always knew what He was doing and has been doing it ever since.

What is immortal? A big word with a lot of baggage is what it is. Obviously in the technical sense it simply means 'not mortal' but the meaning of mortal has become quite broad. I'm not sure it's appropriate to describe God as immortal, because God is so beyond anything paramortal or hypermortal or supramortal or something might be better.

[guest6795]

The pure in heart see God.
God is love, and things have as much meaning and value as an individual gives to them.
We don't 'own' our loved ones or even our pets... God does. - He is the 'Owner'. - He made them, and loving them IS loving God and loving them shows that God (love) is in us...  The Creator is not separate from His Creation.
Loving a sibling or a pet for example is seeing God in them and thus; seeing 'value' (worth) in them... They 'mean something' to us. - We are seeing through eyes of love and that has meaning.
If eyes are dark though... How great is the darkness inside that one. - How pointless. - How lifeless/loveless/Godless.
Some people have 'the whole world' but because they don't see God in any of it (appreciate it); they are miserable.
And some very poor people are very poor, yet rich...

"...As poor, and making many rich; as having nothing, and possessing all things". - 2 Corinthians 6:10

Love is creative energy and energy/power is 'spirit', which is God.  Hate has no creative power. - It destroys.
...So we know that (spiritually) love is Creator and again; 'God is love'.
So one CAN see God (Creator) if they have purity of heart and understand that God isn't an idol or carved image and 'doesn't dwell in temples built by human hands'...