So You Say Prove To Me There Is A God

[WhiteWings]

Hmm, I feel that there may a flaw in that argument at least from the perspective of traditional Christian reasoning, this argument might work well for for the existence of a god but not necessarily our God. That's because entropy is basically the scientific expression the the consequence of sin, i.e. the observation that nature tends towards decay, destruction and death.

Unfortunately, according the Christian tradition that is not native to nature (God's creation) but was introduced by Adam's reckless decision to eat from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I think that finds no support in Scripture.
For starters God created what's called dark and light on day one. The words are used of used for sinful and holy nature in Scripture. Light is another word in Hebrew.

But it's even easier to explain. It is not the eating of the fruit that caused sinful nature, because without sinful nature they never would have eaten it.
It's like sin did not enter the world because God gave a Law. No the Law exposed sin.
Likewise the command not to eat from the tree exposed sin already present.

So entropy already existed.
The fact that Adam and Eve ate stuff is more proof of entropy.
You could put Jesus on  a barren planet with just that tree for food. He would simply have starved instead of even considering eating from that tree.

The sun is another bit of proof of entropy.

The thing about entropy is that it contradicts that thinking, entropy predates humanity and is a fundamental part of nature.

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Hmm, I feel that there may a flaw in that argument at least from the perspective of traditional Christian reasoning, this argument might work well for for the existence of a god but not necessarily our God. That's because entropy is basically the scientific expression the the consequence of sin, i.e. the observation that nature tends towards decay, destruction and death.

That's true! But evolution as origins insists matter improved to the point of becoming life, but the natural law of science called entropy strongly (imo) refutes that.. Since all matter instead tends toward disintegration.

The debate over origins, with science observed since the theory of evolution first posed, like dna, and now able to see the vast intracacy of the cell, which was at the time thought to be a mere blob.. (I read that somewhere, "blob") ..the debate should move along to what sort of "intelligence designed"?

Unfortunately, according the Christian tradition that is not native to nature (God's creation) but was introduced by Adam's reckless decision to eat from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Amen, no millions (er excuse me, billions) of years of death before Adam's disobedience..

The thing about entropy is that it contradicts that thinking, entropy predates humanity and is a fundamental part of nature. If your going to accept that that nature is either flooded with death and evil even prior to our sin and was created that way by God or else the consequences of Adam's sin work multi-dimensionally through time.

:Chinscratch: I've not heard that before, that entropy predates humanity.. I'm inclined to think that a claim of scientists, but, I'm highly skeptical as no one was there previous.. how to substantiate that? :dontknow: And I can't forget how the people lived so very long.. and over time the life span decreased, especially after the flood.

.And I don't understand "or else the consequences of Adam's sin work multi-dimensionally through time." . God gave dominion of the Earth to man? :dontknow:

Acceptation of either position makes entropy hard to use as an argument for God in the traditional sense, in the first case God doesn't traditionally behave like that if you're going to believe the second than you don't have to take anything about the current universe as historically derived at all.

I do not believe in multidimensional universes.. Even though, even if every option at every crossroad became a universe, they all would prove the same thing.. Life cannot be successfully lived w/o God who is life, ruler and sustainer.. But it always would fail.. crash.. etc.. (A different sort of natural law?)
   :Peace2: God bless..

[CST]

Hmm, I feel that there may a flaw in that argument at least from the perspective of traditional Christian reasoning, this argument might work well for for the existence of a god but not necessarily our God. That's because entropy is basically the scientific expression the the consequence of sin, i.e. the observation that nature tends towards decay, destruction and death.

Unfortunately, according the Christian tradition that is not native to nature (God's creation) but was introduced by Adam's reckless decision to eat from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.

I think that finds no support in Scripture.
For starters God created what's called dark and light on day one. The words are used of used for sinful and holy nature in Scripture. Light is another word in Hebrew.

But it's even easier to explain. It is not the eating of the fruit that caused sinful nature, because without sinful nature they never would have eaten it.
It's like sin did not enter the world because God gave a Law. No the Law exposed sin.
Likewise the command not to eat from the tree exposed sin already present.

So entropy already existed.
The fact that Adam and Eve ate stuff is more proof of entropy.
You could put Jesus on  a barren planet with just that tree for food. He would simply have starved instead of even considering eating from that tree.

The sun is another bit of proof of entropy.

The thing about entropy is that it contradicts that thinking, entropy predates humanity and is a fundamental part of nature.

:thumbsup:

I'd be inclined to agree but the part of the Bible that is usually used to support this claim is found in the same section we often use to defend UR:

Roamns 5:12 - 'Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--'

It rather seems to suggest that death is entirely the consequence of the sin committed by that 'one man' who we know to be Adam.

Generally, as I may have mentioned before, I'm more inclined to believe the consequence of Adams sin was the awareness of the natural tendency to destruction and therefore the perception of that as 'death' and the responsibility it bore. But try persuading a fundamentalist of that who believes Romans 5:12 means exactly what it seems to mean.

[WhiteWings]

I agree. It's kinda tricky.
What if Eve never ate from that tree? Would sin be in the world?

A computer can't do stuff that it isn't programmed to do.

God programmed mankind...
:Chinscratch:

[marie glen]

"because all men sinned" - it's the sin which all inherited - genius actually! (imo)so all would take this (unavoidable?) journey and lesson all at once.. instead of say, every one in their own time, wandering out of and away from perfection - by disagreeing with God in any tiny thought, word or deed, when He is (surely?) both life and perfection - making imperfection to be the opposite of life.

Roamns 5:12 - 'Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--'

It rather seems to suggest that death is entirely the consequence of the sin committed by that 'one man' who we know to be Adam.

Generally, as I may have mentioned before, I'm more inclined to believe the consequence of Adams sin was the awareness of the natural tendency to destruction and therefore the perception of that as 'death' and the responsibility it bore. But try persuading a fundamentalist of that who believes Romans 5:12 means exactly what it seems to mean.

I believe there is metaphor, etc in God's Word, but I tend to also believe the straightforward reading. As at heart I am a practical, down to earth sorta gal.. If I couldn't accept the obvious reading of it, I don't think I'd even read it! To say so much of it isn't straightforward, even literal, is a waay slippery slope to me..

These days the world thinks it's ALL metaphor. Not just "creation, parting the Red Sea, virgin birth and resurrection" but also God Himself. (Oy.) [Yet they believe the immaculate conception of life from nonlife and everything from nothing! :laughing7:
man as 'god'/sitting in the seat of/as God, thinks he's SO wise (imo,whatajoke!)]

means exactly what it seems to mean.

I hope I'm not being contrary or rude or anything, please forgive me if it seems that way, but reading God's word as to what it exactly says is my top priority.. "Too much metaphor (forgive me for saying it - imo) is to take away from or add to His Word.. Case in point, if He says, via His word(s), he parted the Red Sea, I totally believe Him. If Jesus said he would draw all to Him, I totally and literally believe it.

Granted, sometimes by metaphor we think we are making things clearer great motive.. but idts (i don't think so. "The wages/consequence of sin is death, but God is the savior of all") I sometimes think straight forward glorifies God, lifts Him up, He is lofty.. ..whereas a-lot-of metaphor - and I'm not thinking of word studies, parables, and obvious metaphor(s) - but a lot of metaphor sometimes I think is yet another way to make man appear to be lofty.. and wise..

I guess I'm pretty much a fundy and a literalist.. Except for (pretty much) the translations of 'hell' etc, and 'for ever'. And a lot of times, I think simple is best.

I hope i expressed this opinion nicely and not rudely  :gsad: We're all, I know, very zealous for Truth.. so others -  who are not U.R. or not even Christian - can read and understand

[marie glen]

I agree. It's kinda tricky.
What if Eve never ate from that tree? Would sin be in the world?

A computer can't do stuff that it isn't programmed to do.

God programmed mankind...
:Chinscratch:

:Chinscratch:  ...to wait, and only create the universe and man and woman (apparently,imo) after - what? What was ready? Then put that tree smack dab in the middle of the garden.. (serpent being metaphor - Rev 12 - an insert/total history, but not read like that, which results in much confusing of the vision - verse 9 - and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him. Note: this occurred, imo, after Jesus ascended to the Father... please read this w/o pre-perception? (Even should it have, as prophecy, more than one fulfillment.)

A great sign (A virgin will conceive!) a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars..

..the dragon (via Herod the Great) stood before the woman, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a man Child (imo, Son of man) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman (the faith / mantle now worn by "Christians") fled into the wilderness (imo, 70 a.d. - a 1st, in large part migration of the faith)

..And war broke out in heaven.. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Half the war manifest as finished, dragon&co no longer allowed access to the heavens (rejoice heavens!)

...Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted (inquisitioned??) the woman who gave birth to the man Child.

.. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly (sail?!) into the wilderness to her (new?)place (imo, a 2nd migration of the faith, in large part)

So the serpent(/tempter guise of the dragon) spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood (from off the earth!). 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood.. And the dragon was enraged with the woman/the faith (um, yes?) and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and (by then? Mt 23:39) have the testimony of Jesus Christ. - i.e. The gathering to armageddon (imo, of course, but I know I'm right :laughing7: oops,sorry.)

A 3rd way of reading this chapter? -> A lot of prophecy buffs, I realize, believe this chapter in such a way that verse 17 is the whole chapter... Others as verse 5 being Christians, and verse 6 being Israel, and the rest of the chapter as?) and few seem to read it as an insert and total history all on its own, but try to place it in order in Rev. and Revelation doesn't exactly work like that..
   :Peace2:

[sheila]

this whole temporal realm of the TOKOGAE is a'mere'growth of the night[the darkness/night comes when no man can work] as the gourd sprang up over Jonah's head.....

as the tares sprang up in the wheat field over-nite.


   entropy-change.......eternity seed[spirit] planted in the heart of the earth[midst of corruption]this earth is the place of the breaking forth of children..and wedonot

  stay long init..the quicker the corruption/handed over to satan fordestructionof the flesh..[sin abound] the quicker the mercy/grace calls home.......

   the adversary brings forth lemons...and God makes lemonade from it.Nothing can stop His hand. though the adversary's motive be evil God allows for the good.

and when God has finished all Hiswork onZion/ eternal perfection brought forth[His likeness in all His offspring/immortal/incorruptible] He shall spoil the adversary that

spoiled you..and appoint a worm unto the shelter of anger/wrath...a mere growth of the night :2c: the vine,the worm the  sun and the wind....unto elder son preachers

of God's coming wrath and destruction..when every knee bows and confesses and they failed to love their enemies.

[WhiteWings]

A great sign (A virgin will conceive!) a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars..

..the dragon (via Herod the Great) stood before the woman, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a man Child (imo, Son of man) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman (the faith / mantle now worn by "Christians") fled into the wilderness (imo, 70 a.d. - a 1st, in large part migration of the faith)

I once held a similar view. The problem is this: where are the 12 stars?

The woman was crowned with 12 stars, 23 September, 2017.
Still got to work that out a little more because that was 2 days after the Feast of Trumpets.
For a long time it's the Jewish secular new year buit before that it was Feast of Shouting. The Feast of creation.
(angels shouting with joy)

[CST]

I agree. It's kinda tricky.
What if Eve never ate from that tree? Would sin be in the world?

A computer can't do stuff that it isn't programmed to do.

God programmed mankind...
:Chinscratch:

Yeah, at the point it becomes easier just to remove literal interpretations from Genesis 2-3, although given what Paul says I think the answer to that question is 'no'. I don't think this is the place to discuss exactly how I think the Hebrews may have understood this but I think we understand that it is the fact that Adam is the head of creation so creation falls when he falls, I think when Eve eats only she falls and I'm not even sure of that.

Hmm, I feel that there may a flaw in that argument at least from the perspective of traditional Christian reasoning, this argument might work well for for the existence of a god but not necessarily our God. That's because entropy is basically the scientific expression the the consequence of sin, i.e. the observation that nature tends towards decay, destruction and death.

That's true! But evolution as origins insists matter improved to the point of becoming life, but the natural law of science called entropy strongly (imo) refutes that.. Since all matter instead tends toward disintegration.

The debate over origins, with science observed since the theory of evolution first posed, like dna, and now able to see the vast intracacy of the cell, which was at the time thought to be a mere blob.. (I read that somewhere, "blob") ..the debate should move along to what sort of "intelligence designed"?

Unfortunately, according the Christian tradition that is not native to nature (God's creation) but was introduced by Adam's reckless decision to eat from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Amen, no millions (er excuse me, billions) of years of death before Adam's disobedience..

The thing about entropy is that it contradicts that thinking, entropy predates humanity and is a fundamental part of nature. If your going to accept that that nature is either flooded with death and evil even prior to our sin and was created that way by God or else the consequences of Adam's sin work multi-dimensionally through time.

:Chinscratch: I've not heard that before, that entropy predates humanity.. I'm inclined to think that a claim of scientists, but, I'm highly skeptical as no one was there previous.. how to substantiate that? :dontknow: And I can't forget how the people lived so very long.. and over time the life span decreased, especially after the flood.

.And I don't understand "or else the consequences of Adam's sin work multi-dimensionally through time." . God gave dominion of the Earth to man? :dontknow:

Acceptation of either position makes entropy hard to use as an argument for God in the traditional sense, in the first case God doesn't traditionally behave like that if you're going to believe the second than you don't have to take anything about the current universe as historically derived at all.

I do not believe in multidimensional universes.. Even though, even if every option at every crossroad became a universe, they all would prove the same thing.. Life cannot be successfully lived w/o God who is life, ruler and sustainer.. But it always would fail.. crash.. etc.. (A different sort of natural law?)
   :Peace2: God bless..

Hmm, I think you may be misunderstanding what entropy is. Science doesn't teach that matter tends towards disintegration in the way you say it does. Science doesn't see entropy as an overarching agency that affects the whole universe. To science not only does the universes right hand not know what it's left hand is doing, it doesn't even know it have a left hand.

The point of entropy is that a certain number of processes in the universe unfold in a way that tend towards disorder and exhaustion, energy is used up irreversibly, etc. Entropy properly refers to scientific processes that tend irreversible in the direction towards disorder and overtime these add up leading to the general deterioration of the universe. It does not mean everything deteriorates universally, it just means there's more destruction in the universe than you might expect from a benevolent God.

You can't just dismiss entropy predating man by saying that's a claim of scientists, everything about entropy is a claim of scientists, it's a scientific concept.

Sorry, I don't believe in the multiverse either I just thought the term 'bi-directionally' sounds a bit weak (being a made up term) and may not cover all avenues. The point was the idea that Adam's sin could somehow effect events that preceded it. I must make clear I don't believe that but given that God is supposed to be involved I can't entirely exclude it.

"because all men sinned" - it's the sin which all inherited - genius actually! (imo)so all would take this (unavoidable?) journey and lesson all at once.. instead of say, every one in their own time, wandering out of and away from perfection - by disagreeing with God in any tiny thought, word or deed, when He is (surely?) both life and perfection - making imperfection to be the opposite of life.

Roamns 5:12 - 'Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--'

It rather seems to suggest that death is entirely the consequence of the sin committed by that 'one man' who we know to be Adam.

Generally, as I may have mentioned before, I'm more inclined to believe the consequence of Adams sin was the awareness of the natural tendency to destruction and therefore the perception of that as 'death' and the responsibility it bore. But try persuading a fundamentalist of that who believes Romans 5:12 means exactly what it seems to mean.

I believe there is metaphor, etc in God's Word, but I tend to also believe the straightforward reading. As at heart I am a practical, down to earth sorta gal.. If I couldn't accept the obvious reading of it, I don't think I'd even read it! To say so much of it isn't straightforward, even literal, is a waay slippery slope to me..

These days the world thinks it's ALL metaphor. Not just "creation, parting the Red Sea, virgin birth and resurrection" but also God Himself. (Oy.) [Yet they believe the immaculate conception of life from nonlife and everything from nothing! :laughing7:
man as 'god'/sitting in the seat of/as God, thinks he's SO wise (imo,whatajoke!)]

means exactly what it seems to mean.

I hope I'm not being contrary or rude or anything, please forgive me if it seems that way, but reading God's word as to what it exactly says is my top priority.. "Too much metaphor (forgive me for saying it - imo) is to take away from or add to His Word.. Case in point, if He says, via His word(s), he parted the Red Sea, I totally believe Him. If Jesus said he would draw all to Him, I totally and literally believe it.

Granted, sometimes by metaphor we think we are making things clearer great motive.. but idts (i don't think so. "The wages/consequence of sin is death, but God is the savior of all") I sometimes think straight forward glorifies God, lifts Him up, He is lofty.. ..whereas a-lot-of metaphor - and I'm not thinking of word studies, parables, and obvious metaphor(s) - but a lot of metaphor sometimes I think is yet another way to make man appear to be lofty.. and wise..

I guess I'm pretty much a fundy and a literalist.. Except for (pretty much) the translations of 'hell' etc, and 'for ever'. And a lot of times, I think simple is best.

I hope i expressed this opinion nicely and not rudely  :gsad: We're all, I know, very zealous for Truth.. so others -  who are not U.R. or not even Christian - can read and understand

You may be missing the point, and I also hope that doesn't come across as rude, but everyone thinks of their 'straightforward' reading is the correct one even if it conflicts with someone else's reading which may seem equally 'straightforward'. I'll use one of your own examples to explain this.

You quoted John 12:32 when Jesus said, "and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Now 'lifted up' means being crucified, of course, but it doesn't say that, and so 'draw' might lead the reader to imagine that when Jesus is put on the cross He'll suddenly turn into a human magnet and everyone will start hurling towards Him and stick to Him. This is especially significant when we remember that the word for 'draw' literally translates as 'drag'. In this rendering we might also see Him dragging people in in a fishing net using another common Biblical symbol He uses.

But we reject these interpretations because they are nonsense to us, instead we imagine it means that Jesus will draw human hearts to Himself and thus save us and we except that and ignore the fact that it is not the most literal way of understanding what Jesus said because it makes more sense to do so.

We all read the Bible and tend to assume we're reading it the most literal way even when we're not because we automatically reject the more literal ones because we know that doesn't make sense. But we do that so much it makes the concept of taking the Bible that literally quite hard to maintain.

[WhiteWings]

Entropy is the search for rest... :winkgrin:

[eaglesway]

 :mrflo:

[marie glen]

Entropy is the search for rest... :winkgrin:

...that could be true.. :thumbsup: :Peace2:

[MusicLover123]

Sorry, I don't believe in the multiverse either

Is it just me, or would it be even more fascinating if God made multiple universes; maybe even billions, and reconciled all to Himself? So, in the end, there won't be multiple heavens or whatever it will be, but one. Even communicating with that amount of God's creation, as love keeps spreading and expanding. Where God's love and power is not just limited to a universe, but potentially/actually infinite as well. Maybe even throw dimensions and String theory into the mix!

Probably just wishful thinking though...

[GodIsLove]

Sorry, I don't believe in the multiverse either

Is it just me, or would it be even more fascinating if God made multiple universes; maybe even billions, and reconciled all to Himself? So, in the end, there won't be multiple heavens or whatever it will be, but one. Even communicating with that amount of God's creation, as love keeps spreading and expanding. Where God's love and power is not just limited to a universe, but potentially/actually infinite as well. Maybe even throw dimensions and String theory into the mix!

Probably just wishful thinking though...

I am open to all sorts of theories like that. Who knows, right?

[marie glen]

Sorry, I don't believe in the multiverse either

Is it just me, or would it be even more fascinating if God made multiple universes; maybe even billions, and reconciled all to Himself? So, in the end, there won't be multiple heavens or whatever it will be, but one. Even communicating with that amount of God's creation, as love keeps spreading and expanding. Where God's love and power is not just limited to a universe, but potentially/actually infinite as well. Maybe even throw dimensions and String theory into the mix!

Probably just wishful thinking though...

I am open to all sorts of theories like that. Who knows, right?

I often think, too (after the issue of good and evil is thoroughly proven and learned) who knows?

I've been watching some videos about how some believe the universe is more 'electric' than previously thought.. And is why there are tails behind a comet and those colorful gaseous looking clouds.. It's interesting to think about.. Electric to me, implies a lot more possibilities.. ..but :dunno:

[CST]

Sorry, I don't believe in the multiverse either

Is it just me, or would it be even more fascinating if God made multiple universes; maybe even billions, and reconciled all to Himself? So, in the end, there won't be multiple heavens or whatever it will be, but one. Even communicating with that amount of God's creation, as love keeps spreading and expanding. Where God's love and power is not just limited to a universe, but potentially/actually infinite as well. Maybe even throw dimensions and String theory into the mix!

Probably just wishful thinking though...

:lol: This is the second topic I've been in recently where the multiple universe hypothesis has reared it's clown-like head. And no I don't find it any more plausible or fascinating. In this universe there are countless billions (probably more) people God already needs to save. That's more than enough for the first 0.1% of eternity.

Remember many worlds multiverse require infinite alternate versions of us some of which will be better at righteousness than we are, many versions of us occupying the same end Heaven would drive us all nuts. So what's to stop God just saving the best version of us (which probably won't be you or me) and binning off the rest? No, I wholeheartedly reject that idea.

[MusicLover123]

Sorry, I don't believe in the multiverse either

Is it just me, or would it be even more fascinating if God made multiple universes; maybe even billions, and reconciled all to Himself? So, in the end, there won't be multiple heavens or whatever it will be, but one. Even communicating with that amount of God's creation, as love keeps spreading and expanding. Where God's love and power is not just limited to a universe, but potentially/actually infinite as well. Maybe even throw dimensions and String theory into the mix!

Probably just wishful thinking though...

:lol: This is the second topic I've been in recently where the multiple universe hypothesis has reared it's clown-like head. And no I don't find it any more plausible or fascinating. In this universe there are countless billions (probably more) people God already needs to save. That's more than enough for the first 0.1% of eternity.

Remember many worlds multiverse require infinite alternate versions of us some of which will be better at righteousness than we are, many versions of us occupying the same end Heaven would drive us all nuts. So what's to stop God just saving the best version of us (which probably won't be you or me) and binning off the rest? No, I wholeheartedly reject that idea.

Who said anything about God struggling to muster enough power to save us? If God is all powerful, then there is no limits to how much He can create, and how much He can save. You really think God is going to say "Oh, well I saved all the people from this universe, but I'm too tired now so they will just have to wait." I don't think that would happen.

In my opinion, having more universes would just show the power of God, where creativity and love know no limits. Who said anything about "saving the best version of ourselves and binning off the rest?" (Wait, you did lol.) Are we not perfected in Christ and will be perfect because of Him? Where no bad traits of ourselves will be left in us? So what if other versions of ourselves are better at righteousness than we are. Other people are better at this than others; are we just gonna be binned because of that?

[CST]

I wasn't saying God didn't have the power to save them or create many other universes. But I don't think it would be good for us to be spending eternity with versions of ourselves that did better than us. It would just remind us of the shortcomings in our lives which I don't believe Heaven is for.

I think there are logical contradictions involved in the concept of 'many worlds' but if they exist I think it best they have their own Heaven to go to even if we might be able to become of aware them from outside. I think us meeting infinite almost, but not quite identical versions of ourselves and our loved ones (and even those we're just fans of) would just be confusing for all concerned. (are you the one that died in a car crash age 18 or the one that became a marine biologist?) One of each of us is enough for us to deal with and I don't think I see 'perfection' in the way you do (but I may be mistaken).

[MusicLover123]

Well, I think I understand your point. But, what if these are entirely different people? And, if we get to travel to these different universes if they exist? I just hope it isn't boring, like playing Patty Cake in a circle for all eternity.

Also another thing. If we truly are meant to stay in "Heaven" for that long, then what is the point of all this creation (explored/unexplored) at the moment? If there are actually around ~100 billion galaxies, what is the point of these existing?

[GodIsLove]

I've heard the multiverse theory talking about different versions of the same reality but that's just one theory. I was just saying that since God is an infinite and loving creator, it wouldn't surprise me that He has made many creations, not just limited to our small Earth.

[Ross]

Here's a little observation.
One palace. One King. One kingdom.
Rev 21;1,2 " Then I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passes away and there was
                   no more sea.
                   And I saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, come down out of the heaven from God, made ready like a bride
                   adorned for her husband."

Revelations makes the point about "nations" will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem, and the kings of earth will bring their splendour into the kingdom. {Rev 21;24}.

Paul makes the point about there no longer being Jew or Greek, barbarian or Scythian... all will be one in Christ.
Also mentions families in heaven named by our Father like we are here.
Myriads of angels.
These are pretty major changes to our current state of being when we will be like Christ in all regards.
The world we live in will be changed when the heavens are rolled up like a banner.
This seems to state that there is more creation being worked on, so there will be much to do in the next ages. Difference being working together for the common good with totally new objectives and values.
How is that boring?

[MusicLover123]

Question: When it talks about a Heaven, is it referring to "God's headquarters" so to speak, or is it referring to created things? Or both? Neither?

I hope boredom is one of those things that passes away with our old nature. Something I struggle with a lot.

Imagine if you are a maid, and your sole purpose is to clean. What happens when there is nothing to clean? Remember, the things we will be doing will never end. Hopefully it will never get boring and is truly satisfying...

[Ross]

Isaiah 40;12-25 " Who has measured the waters with the hollow of his hand?
                          Or has meted out the heavens with a span, or comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure,
                          or weighed the mountains in a balance.
                          Who has proved the Spirit of Yahweh? Or being His counsellor has been giving Him knowledge?
                          With whom has He taken counsel and has given God intelligence, and instructed God in the path of justice
                           and taught God knowledge, and has been giving God understanding in the way of intelligence?

                           Behold! Nations are as a drop in a bucket, and are accounted as fine dust on a balance.
                           Lo! He can hoist lands like an atom!
                           And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for an ascending sacrifice.
                           All nations are as nothing before God- they are accounted a thing of nought or waste to Him.
                           
                          Unto whom then can you liken God?
                          Or what likeness can you compare to Him?

                          Have you never taken note? Have you never head? Has it not been told you from the beginning?
                          Have you not been led to discern from the foundations of the earth?

                        It is He Who sits upon the circle of the earth, while the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, Who stretches
                         forth the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in;
                           Who delivers dignitaries to nothingness. He has made judges of earth like a desolation; scarcely have they been
                          planted, scarcely have they been sown, scarcely has their stock begun to take root in the earth when He has just
                          blown upon them and they have withered, and a whirlwind carries them away as though they had been chaff.

                         Unto who then, can you liken Me, or can be My equal? says the Holy One."
                         

[CST]

Well, I think I understand your point. But, what if these are entirely different people? And, if we get to travel to these different universes if they exist? I just hope it isn't boring, like playing Patty Cake in a circle for all eternity.

Also another thing. If we truly are meant to stay in "Heaven" for that long, then what is the point of all this creation (explored/unexplored) at the moment? If there are actually around ~100 billion galaxies, what is the point of these existing?

When I think on this point I am immediately drawn to questions like 'will Jimi Hendrix ever finish First Rays Of The New Rising Sun?' I know his record company have tried but we don't have all the things he intended to do because he never had chance to do them.

When people think of Heaven, or at least when religious authorities have done so historically, they have always thought of it in regard to how much 'better' it is than the world we've left. The world we've left is utterly fallen and ruined with nothing going for it and those who are saved are best off out of it. Of course to them the answer is 'No' because they see nothing good in the works of Jimi Hendrix who they quite expect to go to Hell anyway.

Jimi Hendrix is, of course, just one example; many of our most creative minds have died leaving work unfinished, it's generally been held that they won't be finished and that's that, but for me given that our God is a creator God I think there's reason to value creativity above most things even the ones that paradoxically focus on our more destructive tenancies.

I like to think celebrating and continuing to nurture and develop our creativity with God should be more than enough to keep us going throughout eternity without needing to bring in whatever may be happening in other universes too much.

[marie glen]

Amen.. Life can be very interesting now.. look at all the things we can learn.. astronomy, science, history.. books to read.. crafts to do.. things to build..Which reminds me, one of the first things the prophecies talk about is rebuilding ruins..

When I watch old westerns I always look at the towns and think how amazing it would have been to build your own little town.. (But then of course my family and I are into camping, where we make tiny camper towns for a long weekend or something, lol.) ..But just imagine..

Then there's this #1 - no more bombardment of advertising. life without ads.. :cloud9: And #2 - no more mountains of regulations from big bro human.. a fee and a permit or license for this, that and everything.. And if you build a house, all things up to code and regulated ad nauseum.. (but all will trustworthy so the skies the limit?)

But one thing I really look forward to? Getting acquainted with and getting to know the animals! Friends with lions and tigers and bears... oh my! I think our dog and long haired cat is impressive, just wait til I can hug a lion! Get to know an elephant.. giraffe..

Life is so limited and hindered by the simple fact of sin and all kind of imperfection.. And, I hear we only use about 1/10th of our brain we have now.. This is why I can never get my teeth into the idea of being a mere ghost, and forever no less, like so many nonbelievers and believers alike, seem to believe.. (I agree, how boring!) But I think He created because He wanted to.. And I think it's glorious already, we really cannot appreciate how awesome it will be when all things are ruled by perfection, life and love - By Him! (As a matter of fact, the physical-ness is what makes sin so prone.. it's like we have to be inoculated - all resistance totally in us.)

And people! Perhaps I should think of them first! What a huge family! So many folks and families and tribes, to get acquainted with! Some folks in the world think it would be better if all the ethnicities blended and became one with no differences.. What! God's human family is made up of beautiful branches! If any one were to somehow disappear! WhAt a loss!! :faint:

I'm not a bad singer or dancer, or writer.. of songs, poems, stories.. but just imagine how much more so when in a perfect state..

I was in Newport, Rhode Island, taking the ride down the famous street of mansions.. but it wasn't the mansions, I was interested in. It was the trees! Trees brought in from Europe or elsewhere.. some awesome types I had never seen before.. some huge... There's so much to this planet that we never, ever see.. Amaazing things..

Then I do lean toward thinking eventually other planets may be brought to life.. Why not? We will all be like Jesus and He was able to ascend to the Father and then came back..

Gardening with no noxious or invading weeds :cloud9: How many varieties of flowers are there? ...Plucking twelve manner of fruit from trees in the twelve seasons.. We could learn all musical instruments.. And much easier than we can now..
    :Peace2: