sheol, hades and

[chester-blowfold]

is it gehena?

Sorry folks I'm being vey lazy here, as no doubt there's already writings in tentmaker about these words, but I couldn't just find a thread on these words alone......in bed with some sort of flu.

can anyone tell me what theses words really mean and if they don't mean hell who first changed them and why?

[Lazarus Short]

"Sheol" means simply the realm (or place) of the dead.  I found that when context allowed, the KJV translators rendered it as "Hell," and when context did not allow, it was rendered as "grave" or "pit."

Hades was the best Greek equivalent for Sheol, as used in the LXX translation.  However, it brought some unfortunate pagan theology along with it.  With continued contact with Greek culture, Jewish views of the afterlife changed to include a better place for the righteous and a not-so-nice place for the wicked.  Immortality of the soul was included in the deal.

[marie glen]

hi Chester! Gehenna was, originally, the city dump. They even burned criminals' bodies there, if you were deemed wicked enough to not deserve burial. S the fires were kept burning.. It was a valley, is a body got held up on a ledge the worms would be what would consume it.. So it was a pretty gruesome place. It had been turned that way deliberately as it was once used to worship other 'gods' so one of the 'good' kings turned it into something very profane.

I figure that's what Jesus meant when He said it would be better to pluck your eye out than it lead you into gross sin and your whole body be thrown there..

As far as "gehenna  fire" goes, it sounds like the lake of fire is a cleansing, purifying.. even consuming place.. consuming of all flaw.. (sin).. I say consuming because the ('big') beast of revelation 13 and the false prophet/(teacher/teaching, but whom many believe is the same 'character' as the 'little' beast of rev 13) are thrown there.. and I figure they are consumed because they're not (likely) persons, but institutions of mankind. They are thrown there "alive" (active, I believe, active at the time of Jesus' return, aka, last days..)

As far as people are concerned, and Jesus' mention of "gehenna fire", if it wasn't for God's great plan of rescue, we would all perish, for as we know, the wages of sin is death, but God so loved.. that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish.. Any that make it to the Lake of fire - stubborn holdouts? still refusing to love God (who is love) even after experiencing being risen from their grave and witnessing a great day of the judgment and review of all things? Our God is a consuming fire.. but His fire, as we too have witnessed in our own life, is a corrective fire.. Because HE is perfect, the 'end' result of all this, surely(?) can only be the best one possible.. (I believe, surely, He has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the best of all possible outcomes.)
:Peace2: God bless!

[eaglesway]

http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/hellisamyth.htm

Hell is a translation of "sheol" around 70 times in the KJV

It is a translation of "gehenna" around 10 times, but half of those are repetitions of the same verses in the four gospels, and it was used once in James epistle(gehenna translated as hell)

It is a translation once, in a couple of translations, of Tartarus(the pit) in 2 Peter 2:4

I detail the roots of how Sheol(Hebrew) morphed into Hades(Greek) to Inferno(Latin) to Hell(Norse/early English) at the above link

[chester-blowfold]

Interestingly all the facts regarding hell are out there, so why do otherwise intelligent people still believe?

[marie glen]

That's a very good question! And to go along with all that is logic.. Sorely missing.. I mean the whole theory/myth is totally ridiculous.. Jesus said things like .."that your joy may be full.."

Full joy with 2/3's of humanity writhing in unbelievable intense pain for ever with no relief in sight ever? Gee... who's mind does that remind me of? My heavenly Father's? Uh, I don't think so!!

It's a stronghold.. Like the belief in evolution as the origins of life - hope I'm not offending anyone - but that's another theory and myth that's laughable.. But nobody reaLLy looks into it.. then they blame christians for 'only' believing what they're taught :doh: Same thing.. hard to believe anyone actually believes it.. but you just can't pry folks loose of it.. And they're like this strange peer pressure.. Yep, Christians are afraid to offend the other christians, or be considered outcast. And worldly folks are afraid of being called ignorant if they don't go along with the popular 'scientific' theory.. (which isn't scientific at all!)

All we can do is plant little seeds.. and pray.. (water the seeds with prayer) and once in a while we might get to plant a big seed! :thumbsup: :gsmile: and know there's reason for it! the strongholds, that is! I think one reason might be He likes the interaction with us as we seek to get to the bottom of things.. :dontknow: :Peace2:

[chester-blowfold]

I believe in evolution. It's just that evolution came through God and when it was explained in the bible it was made simple so man could understand (like when yu tell a child about the birds and the bees, you tell the child that simple story as theyd never understand a full on medical explanation).

[eaglesway]

So you believe God created thru evolution. I understand that concept thoroughly, but it is written that, "By faith we know the worlds were framed by the word of God", and "God said, "Let there be light, and there was darkness and light the first day (yowm-2303 occurences, all "day"). Is it harder to believe that God spoke the light into existence? At some point there was an initial spark that all things began from. Is that miracle of the existence of whatever primal essence that all things spring from, initially coming into existence that the continuing development of their types and kinds?

Actually the speaking into being of each individual genus is lesser than thats, imo.... so it says "therefore the things the are unseen are greater than the things that are seen" and we kno there had to be a "beginning", and the beginning is greater than the individually diverse developments that spring from it, so I believe evolution is "the birds and the bees" story for humans too spiritually undeveloped to see the awesomeness of the Creator and His ability to Create by speaking things into existence and causing them to form out of chaos into order.

[chester-blowfold]

If I've understood you correctly eaglesway, then yes, we're on the same page but you've said it more eloquently than I ever could

[eaglesway]

I am not sure I was eloquent or clear there lol

I was trying to say that it is just as easy to believe God spoke the creation into being in 7 days as it is that He sat around for billions of years watching it gestate and emerge.

For me, evolution makes creation greater than the God who created it. I am not hung up or hard line on that tho, in terms of fellowship I have some great friends who dont believe in creation, and a few that dont believe in God Himself.... so we can discuss as friends our opinions on things and explore them as theories and express various hypothesies, because God doesnt love people because they believe the right things. And not everyone who believes the right things has the love of God in them. People who love God can talk about anything. People who dont love each other cant talk about anything it seems, without it becoming unpleasant :o)

[chester-blowfold]

I see where your coming from eaglesway. I'm in awe of either way tbh because it's my absolute belief that whether it be 7 days or evolution God's hand was upon both.

[eaglesway]

Exactly. :o)

[eaglesway]

One interesting perspective is that time requires consciousness. There was no consciousness until Adam was created, so whatever the word 'day' represents, there were 3 before the sun and moon were created , so the whole idea of an absolute 24 hour day is dubious(as I see it). Since I amimo  not a strict literalist, that leaves room for different interpretations by people of good conscience. If their was no consciousness of time until Adam was created, God's methods are hidden behind the veil until we know as we are known, in the resurrection.

"we'll understand it better by and by...", as the old godpel song chimes :o)

[Lazarus Short]

Ferrar Fenton translated Genesis 1:1 like this:

By Periods GOD created that which produced the Solar Systems; then that which produced the Earth.

He stated in a footnote that "By Periods" literally meant "By Headships."

What could that mean, exactly?

[chester-blowfold]

eaglesway, not knocking your absolutely fantastic work but reading this this afternoon I think there's a very very tiny mistake (that or I really am an idiot haha).


Chapter 2: ALL IN ALL- "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory forever" (Romans 11:16)........should it not say Romans 11:36?

[eaglesway]

Yep, thanks for pointing that out :o)

[marie glen]

:gsmile:  :thumbsup:

I used to wonder about man's looking back through telescopes and believing he is seeing billions of years in the past... but now I have come to think - not as doctrine but just in my own head - that creation is a veritable explosion of God Himself! Being that God is life itself, that elusive spark called life (surely?) and thusly did He place all things where He wanted them .. and from there, they began their motion. Whereas man thinks the starting point of the movement of the cosmos was from a tiny center of all things condensed and moving at a constant rate from that tiny, tiny center.. yet I believe He started the movement/motion/revolutions from where He placed everything.

Now maybe others of the faith have thought this all along.. but I hadn't thought of it like that until recently, but was in search for an answer to the telescope looking backward over billions of years theory.
:gsmile: :Peace2:
P.S - man is so puny! And knows SO little! :)

[Ross]

I believe in evolution. It's just that evolution came through God and when it was explained in the bible it was made simple so man could understand (like when yu tell a child about the birds and the bees, you tell the child that simple story as theyd never understand a full on medical explanation).

I prefer the term- development.
After the flood that was changed.
Psalm 104 seems to point out the control of the animals etc, with specifics implemented by God;

vs 14 " He causes grass to grow for livestock and provides crops for man to cultivate, producing food from the earth, wine that makes
           the heart glad- making his face shine with oil- and bread that sustains the heart."

vs 19 " He made the moon to mark the seasons;
           the sun knows where to set. "

vs 24 " How countless are your works, Lord! In wisdom You made them all; the earth is full of Your possessions."

vs 27 " All of them wait for You to give them food at the right time."

vs 30 " When You send Your Spirit they are created, and You renew the face of the earth."

I.M.O who is to say He has stopped creating, as there is to be a literal new heavens and earth.

[marie glen]

I believe He is not done creating but is still creating - I'm inclined to think - His perfect thing which He is creating! And patient... waiting for His precious fruit of the Earth. :thumbsup:

[RonnyTX]

Interestingly all the facts regarding hell are out there, so why do otherwise intelligent people still believe?

Chester, for me it was simply because of the denominational church, that I grew up in.  For there I was taught that there was a Jesus Christ  created hell of eternal torment and most people were going to end up there.  I was taught God chose who would go there and who would go to heaven.  Why did I believe all of that?  Because in the church I grew up in, I was also taught to idol worship the people who taught me there.  I was taught there, that when I heard them, it was the same as if I was hearing God speak to me. It wasn't; but then as a child and teen and on up till middle age, I didn't know any better.  I didn't, until God showed me such and set me free from such. :-)

[marie glen]

Interestingly all the facts regarding hell are out there, so why do otherwise intelligent people still believe?

Chester, for me it was simply because of the denominational church, that I grew up in.  For there I was taught that there was a Jesus Christ  created hell of eternal torment and most people were going to end up there.  I was taught God chose who would go there and who would go to heaven.  Why did I believe all of that?  Because in the church I grew up in, I was also taught to idol worship the people who taught me there.  I was taught there, that when I heard them, it was the same as if I was hearing God speak to me. It wasn't; but then as a child and teen and on up till middle age, I didn't know any better.  I didn't, until God showed me such and set me free from such. :-)

Wow.. I never thought of it in that way.. like hero worship.. I've thought of it like peer pressure.. but idol worship is a step further.. and describes it more accurately.. :Chinscratch:  strongly held false ideas held in place not only through peer pressure, but a spirit of idol/hero worship.. wow.
..thanks!  :gimmefive: