Tentmaker Forum

The Israelites were forgiven by the victim system in the OT.

" without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. "

How were the other nations forgiven? Or  Were they less forgiven because they were not victim systems?


And,

I will ask another question but I guess, I'm under the influence of my old teachings. Still.

- Writes as the savior of the world because there is now only one victim for everyone.
People can not offer sacrifices for each sin one by one.
I mean, Now the victim is the only for every human being.The only victim that can be used for everyone. 
For this reason, Only those who accept it are forgiven.  As it is in the old testament. -

Would you please help me for this thoughts?

All will accept it in time, in this life or after the second resurrection.  Here are Jesus' statements in the Bible about why He was on the Earth.  It is an excerpt from my book "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No," available free to all members of the Tent.

Matthew 5:17 – "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Matthew 9:13 – "...I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Matthew 10:34-35 – "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.  FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW."

Matthew 15:24 – "...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Matthew 18:11 – "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

Matthew 20:28 – "...the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Mark 1:38 – "Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth."

Mark 2:17 – "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Luke 4:18-19 – "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."

Luke 4:43 – "I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent."

Luke 5:31-32 – "They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.  I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Luke 9:56 – "For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."

Luke 12:49 – "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?"

Luke 12:51 – "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?  I tell you, Nay; but rather division."

Luke 19:10 – "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Luke 24:26 – "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?"

Luke 24:46-47 – "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

John 3:14-17 – "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

John 4:34 – "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."

John 5:30 – "...I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

John 5:43 – "I am come in my Father's name..."

John 6:38-40 – "For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:48,51 – "I am that bread of life...if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

John 7:28-29 – "...I am not come of myself...for I am from him, and he hath sent me."

John 9:39 – "For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."

John 10:10 – "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

John 12:27 – "Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."

John 12:46 – "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

John 15:22 – "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."

John 18:37 – "Thou sayest that I am a king.  To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth."

Jesus' stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell.  Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.

Thank you

Do you have an answer for the first question?

Quote from: whatistruth on June 14, 2017, 06:43:49 PM
The Israelites were forgiven by the victim system in the OT.

" without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. "

How were the other nations forgiven? Or  Were they less forgiven because they were not victim systems?


And,

I will ask another question but I guess, I'm under the influence of my old teachings. Still.

- Writes as the savior of the world because there is now only one victim for everyone.
People can not offer sacrifices for each sin one by one.
I mean, Now the victim is the only for every human being.The only victim that can be used for everyone. 
For this reason, Only those who accept it are forgiven.  As it is in the old testament. -

Would you please help me for this thoughts?

Your answer to your first question you stated yourself

He was a sacrifice, YES, not a victim ..... His life was not taken from Him, He freely gave it, therefore it is impossible for Him to be a victim
:2c:

Here is a brief explanation of the verse you mention
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ILhP9qJfqI8

Some of those things not talked about in churches.
Why does Israel not try to convert everybody?
Where are all those who died before Christ came and died for all of us?
If someone has never heard the gospel why do they have to be blamed and sent to hell?
Paul talks about a mystery that had been hidden from previous ages, so how can men suffer for what they did not know?
Other cultures were sacrificing to their own version of God and the Israelites copied them, even sacrificing their own children to molech, so where do they go?

I.M.O this all points to the wisdom of man as foolish compered to the wisdom of God.

So indeed; " How were the other nations forgiven?"

They will be forgiven and corrected in the resurrection.
If we only look at this age as the only time people will be converted, then all appears futile, a waste of time.
Paul, Peter, and John, point out their are ages to come.
The first fruit know currently. The others will come to know in their own appointed time- just like having a doctors appointment and not going in until called in by the doc; the appointment then points out the problem and gives the solution.

Quote from: jugghead on June 15, 2017, 12:33:56 AM

Quote from: whatistruth on June 14, 2017, 06:43:49 PM
The Israelites were forgiven by the victim system in the OT.

" without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. "

How were the other nations forgiven? Or  Were they less forgiven because they were not victim systems?


And,

I will ask another question but I guess, I'm under the influence of my old teachings. Still.

- Writes as the savior of the world because there is now only one victim for everyone.
People can not offer sacrifices for each sin one by one.
I mean, Now the victim is the only for every human being.The only victim that can be used for everyone. 
For this reason, Only those who accept it are forgiven.  As it is in the old testament. -

Would you please help me for this thoughts?

Your answer to your first question you stated yourself

He was a sacrifice, YES, not a victim ..... His life was not taken from Him, He freely gave it, therefore it is impossible for Him to be a victim
:2c:

Thank you for  :2c:   
Actually, do not focus on words. Because I told you before, my language is not very good.

Just like the old testament, those who come to present the sacrifice, that is, those who believe Jesus in the new testament. There was no forgiveness without accepting the sacrifice.

The problem is always the same. 'who faith, who believe from heart... '  These are things that confuse my head.

I wondered about the forgiveness of worldly punishment in the O.T.    Sometimes, the god forgives the victim without asking, but israel has more privileges with this system. They already had their privileges on every issue!

If god forgives in the world, why did he have a big sacrifice send?

As if there were two separate forgiveness, and the Messiah saved from punishment after death those who believed in him.

I dont know. Everything seems so complicated right now.

Your thoughts are important to me.

Quote from: Abigail on June 15, 2017, 12:41:23 AM
Here is a brief explanation of the verse you mention
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ILhP9qJfqI8

Thank you for links.  :declare:

Quote from: Ross on June 15, 2017, 04:46:15 AM
Some of those things not talked about in churches.
Why does Israel not try to convert everybody?
Where are all those who died before Christ came and died for all of us?
If someone has never heard the gospel why do they have to be blamed and sent to hell?
Paul talks about a mystery that had been hidden from previous ages, so how can men suffer for what they did not know?
Other cultures were sacrificing to their own version of God and the Israelites copied them, even sacrificing their own children to molech, so where do they go?

I.M.O this all points to the wisdom of man as foolish compered to the wisdom of God.

So indeed; " How were the other nations forgiven?"

They will be forgiven and corrected in the resurrection.
If we only look at this age as the only time people will be converted, then all appears futile, a waste of time.
Paul, Peter, and John, point out their are ages to come.
The first fruit know currently. The others will come to know in their own appointed time- just like having a doctors appointment and not going in until called in by the doc; the appointment then points out the problem and gives the solution.

And one more!

If we still have worldly punishments,  Did Messiah really save us from punishment after death?

I read a lot about it.  Atonement theory and I have read that Messiah does not actually come to forgive sins. It is not possible to participate in such a view.For me.

It is said , there is punishment after it is death. And the deceased were held elsewhere. And Many more things.

And again, Your answers are important to me.

I read the stories of the people who were confused like me. Some of them healed.Some of them continue to look.
But I know that,  everything is possible with the help of God. And in the prayer of you.

I always say, but I hope there are those who pray for me.

Come on guys!  :winkgrin:

For me it is "the renewing of the mind", stop seeing it as punishment and see it for what it is "correction" ...... for those He loves He disciplines ..... God corrects out of love, He does not punish out of love

I see punishment as the viewpoint of a child, being hurt without understanding ..... if we understand why (out of love) ... correction is welcomed ..... which is just another way to say "rejoice in sufferings"

Quote from: jugghead on June 16, 2017, 01:05:34 AM
For me it is "the renewing of the mind", stop seeing it as punishment and see it for what it is "correction" ...... for those He loves He disciplines ..... God corrects out of love, He does not punish out of love

I see punishment as the viewpoint of a child, being hurt without understanding ..... if we understand why (out of love) ... correction is welcomed ..... which is just another way to say "rejoice in sufferings"

Amen!!! :thumbsup:

Quote from: jugghead on June 16, 2017, 01:05:34 AM
For me it is "the renewing of the mind", stop seeing it as punishment and see it for what it is "correction" ...... for those He loves He disciplines ..... God corrects out of love, He does not punish out of love

I see punishment as the viewpoint of a child, being hurt without understanding ..... if we understand why (out of love) ... correction is welcomed ..... which is just another way to say "rejoice in sufferings"

I'm happy for you.

Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.

But when I look at this verse I see it,

Maybe he did not accept me as a son. Yet.

Everyone was not considered a son.  There are still people who can't be a son and they too is suffering.

What kind of discipline can happen in the rape of a small child?

Let's be a little realistic.

There are those who commit suicide in the face of these punishes or correction of God.

There are those who hate God.

Well,  Did god's plan fail?

There is a life that is sad to other people too, in the face of punishment given to one person.

And there are death sentences. Where's that correction?

the laws of nature on one person over may also be working.

' Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. '

And,  galatians 6:8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

I do not see the correction here either.

Of course,  There are innocent people who do not will reap in return. innocent life is destroyed because of others.

I do not think this can be overcome so easily.

You can not fully understand me unless you think like me. I am really in a difficult situation.

But your thoughts are important to me. And I feel good that you care about me.  :girlheart:

If God helps me, (Because he is all the reason for everything.)
I can think as it yours and maybe find peace.

Quote from: Ross on June 16, 2017, 03:44:59 AM

Quote from: jugghead on June 16, 2017, 01:05:34 AM
For me it is "the renewing of the mind", stop seeing it as punishment and see it for what it is "correction" ...... for those He loves He disciplines ..... God corrects out of love, He does not punish out of love

I see punishment as the viewpoint of a child, being hurt without understanding ..... if we understand why (out of love) ... correction is welcomed ..... which is just another way to say "rejoice in sufferings"

Amen!!! :thumbsup:

Really? ! What was I tell you?
Do you pray for me?
:HeartThrob:
I am waiting both of you.  :winkgrin:

I did think like you years ago, do you think I came to this understanding over night? No way, it has been 12 years since He started me on this journey, it has only been the last few years that I understand what I do.

If you think that the rape of a small child is God disciplining that child you better think again, for all we know God lets it happen to that child so when they get older they can help others who have gone through the same thing.

Which is what I am trying to do with you, I have gone through this, as I know others on here also have. We try to give you what we have come to understand, all we are getting in return is more questions.

Each question has to be dug into BY YOU for you to come to an understanding about it, we can offer up our thoughts, but if it doesn't make sense to you it is rejected. Seek the answer for yourself and one question at a time.

How can anything be kept straight (straight path) if you keep branching off the path with another question. So many questions are overwhelming, as you are proof of that ..... as were we when we went through it.

slow down, stop rushing for all the answers at once. That is my prayer for you.

Blessings

Gal 4;1-3 " What I am saying is, that as long as the heir is a minor HE NOT AT ALL DIFFERS FROM A SLAVE.
                 EVEN THOUGH HE IN FACT OWNS THE ENTIRE ESTATE.
                 However, he remains under the care of guardians and managers UNTIL THE TIME DETERMINED BY HIS FATHER.
                 And so it is with us. While we were minors we were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world."

Gal 5;7,8 "You were running well, who hindered you from obeying the truth?
                 SUCH PERSUASION DOES NOT COME FROM THE ONE WHO CALLS YOU."

The enemy tries to distract us from how much Christ achieved/did for us.
We cannot add one drop/iota to what Jesus did- His work is complete.
Look what kind of love the Father has given us, that we are allowed to be called the sons of God, and such we are.
Many people will not know their position in this age. If this age is all their is, then we should be pitied most of all. However the things to come EXCEED the current foolishness and helplessness which is designed to teach us what is right from what is wrong.
I like the idea that some have been given leading roles to play Judas was appointed to betray Christ.
Caiaphas stated that one man would die for the people, [John 11;49-52] then arranged the crucifixion.
All Israel had their heart hardened so that Christ would be crucified, otherwise they would have had Him lead them in revolt against Romans. Yet all Israel will be saved.
Currently mans' laws are used to try and change peoples behaviour- not working.
The biggest law breakers get the better lawyer to cause their charges to be dropped/reduced.
Man has no answers to the problems.

In spite of all of this- God loves us.
NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord [ Romans 8;37-39]
The knowledge surpassing love of Christ for us. He can do infinitely more than we ask or imagine.[Eph 3;19,20]
Man follows many religions that are far from the truth.
Crusades have happened in the past where men have killed other men because they thought they knew God.

The day of atonement was to teach the idea of the need for cleansing, and this cleansing was done in such precise detail. Even when doing all this Israel was not cleansing their neighbours.
Paul makes the statement that in the resurrection their will no longer be Jew, gentile, barbarian, Scythian etc- but all will be of the one body- Christ. So Christ's atonement makes us all one and breaks down the barrier [Gal 3;28 Col 3;11]

Like jugghead says about 12 years- this is not a quick process- we go through much to learn much.
Has taken me 15 years to start stripping away the fine points of my own errors, and to expose the differences caused to attitudes/life-style between flesh and spirit. [Gal 5;17-24]
Learning takes time.
Please feel encouraged- for you to be asking these questions He is at work in your repentance, starting to walk you step by step through your development. Just like a baby crawls before walking, we too learn in the correct sequence so that the information is processed correctly.
God's plan does not fail. Man misreads the time schedule.
The pot[ man] cannot tell the potter[God] why it was made. Yet we try. Psychiatrists think they have the answers, yet they can only suggest, point things out- they do not have answers that solve depression, worthlessness.
Fortunately God will not fail. His love is greater than mans'.
As Christ points out, ' What earthly father gives his child a stone instead of a fish?'
Our heavenly Father loves us more than they do.
But just like we have different ages amongst siblings, people will come to know at their own time. We can live with them, but not for them. Just  that many of them will NOT find this out till AFTER they are resurrected.

Looking for all the answers at once isn't a bad thing. I know that from personal experience.
When someone wants to read a story in an unknown language many words have to be learned. Knowing words still doesn't help to understand the story.
But when a great amount of words are known then the story can be understood.
When reading the story things may look odd. The meaning of words don't make sense in the context of the story.
Sometimes it turns out the words you assumed you knew, have  a different meaning. And that's verified by the story as a whole. Just because the real meaning of the word fits perfectly in the story.

I love internet, Google and books. And love taking notes!
So when I started my journey I had hundreds of questions 'answered' quite soon.
I studied those answers.
Sometimes it was very simple.
Sometimes there were 10 views. With long hours of study I could narrow that down to maybe 3 views. Then I was stuck.

Usually when I was stuck I kept going and going for a while until I gave up. I admitted to myself that I'm unable to narrow it down to one conclusion.
Was that disappointing? Not really because before I had to admit defeat I learned a lot.

That pattern repeated itself over and over, and still does. I still have stuff I can't figure out.
But the most important part is I learned a lot from both my victories and defeats.

As time progressed my defeats never were real defeats.
As I studied seemingly unrelated things, stuff started to snap into place. I could regularly cut down unsolved stuff from 3 to 2 or even 1 interpretation.
Narrowing it down to just one interpretation is good, but as weird as it seems not the most important part. By connection 'unrelated' things the context is scaled up from a verse to a passage to chapter to what I call the red threads running from Genesis to Revelation. (I don't really read from cover to cover but I try to follow the red threads)


So as a summary: For me it's unthinkable to study without 'wanting to know it all'. Simply because any other way causes a bad foundation. Something that seems great when isolated. But only when taking all questions into account a solid foundation can be build.
Then doctrine starts to prevail over the Bible.  :2c:

That's what works for me. So I can imagine it works for (some) others too...

 :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jugghead on June 17, 2017, 03:25:12 AM
I did think like you years ago, do you think I came to this understanding over night? No way, it has been 12 years since He started me on this journey, it has only been the last few years that I understand what I do.

If you think that the rape of a small child is God disciplining that child you better think again, for all we know God lets it happen to that child so when they get older they can help others who have gone through the same thing.

Which is what I am trying to do with you, I have gone through this, as I know others on here also have. We try to give you what we have come to understand, all we are getting in return is more questions.

Each question has to be dug into BY YOU for you to come to an understanding about it, we can offer up our thoughts, but if it doesn't make sense to you it is rejected. Seek the answer for yourself and one question at a time.

How can anything be kept straight (straight path) if you keep branching off the path with another question. So many questions are overwhelming, as you are proof of that ..... as were we when we went through it.

slow down, stop rushing for all the answers at once. That is my prayer for you.

Blessings

Well, I need to explain some things.

Think about that child's psychology.
And
A married and childly woman committed suicide because she was rape. The she's family have not learned anything except pain.

If God's Purpose is to educate, this often fails. I explained the reasons.

If my questions disturbing you,  I will not ask question.

If you say because you just think of me, it is impossible.

Because, This is my a disease.

I told you earlier, I don't  want to ask questions. But A lot of thoughts come to my mind without opening my eyes. I woke up with a heartache this morning.

A voice from within me said that there would never be my good relationship with God again.

Sometimes I feel I can not breathe.

And a whole lot more...

I can not write all.because I have a lot of problems. I do not want to tire anyone. And I do not have enough my words.

It takes me half a day to answer you.
Because of I have some lacks.
I try to get one hope from yours. Sometimes it really helps.

And, There are many verses that bothers me.

Quote from: Ross on June 17, 2017, 09:06:06 AM
Gal 4;1-3 " What I am saying is, that as long as the heir is a minor HE NOT AT ALL DIFFERS FROM A SLAVE.
                 EVEN THOUGH HE IN FACT OWNS THE ENTIRE ESTATE.
                 However, he remains under the care of guardians and managers UNTIL THE TIME DETERMINED BY HIS FATHER.
                 And so it is with us. While we were minors we were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world."

Gal 5;7,8 "You were running well, who hindered you from obeying the truth?
                 SUCH PERSUASION DOES NOT COME FROM THE ONE WHO CALLS YOU."

The enemy tries to distract us from how much Christ achieved/did for us.
We cannot add one drop/iota to what Jesus did- His work is complete.
Look what kind of love the Father has given us, that we are allowed to be called the sons of God, and such we are.
Many people will not know their position in this age. If this age is all their is, then we should be pitied most of all. However the things to come EXCEED the current foolishness and helplessness which is designed to teach us what is right from what is wrong.
I like the idea that some have been given leading roles to play Judas was appointed to betray Christ.
Caiaphas stated that one man would die for the people, [John 11;49-52] then arranged the crucifixion.
All Israel had their heart hardened so that Christ would be crucified, otherwise they would have had Him lead them in revolt against Romans. Yet all Israel will be saved.
Currently mans' laws are used to try and change peoples behaviour- not working.
The biggest law breakers get the better lawyer to cause their charges to be dropped/reduced.
Man has no answers to the problems.

In spite of all of this- God loves us.
NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord [ Romans 8;37-39]
The knowledge surpassing love of Christ for us. He can do infinitely more than we ask or imagine.[Eph 3;19,20]
Man follows many religions that are far from the truth.
Crusades have happened in the past where men have killed other men because they thought they knew God.

The day of atonement was to teach the idea of the need for cleansing, and this cleansing was done in such precise detail. Even when doing all this Israel was not cleansing their neighbours.
Paul makes the statement that in the resurrection their will no longer be Jew, gentile, barbarian, Scythian etc- but all will be of the one body- Christ. So Christ's atonement makes us all one and breaks down the barrier [Gal 3;28 Col 3;11]

Like jugghead says about 12 years- this is not a quick process- we go through much to learn much.
Has taken me 15 years to start stripping away the fine points of my own errors, and to expose the differences caused to attitudes/life-style between flesh and spirit. [Gal 5;17-24]
Learning takes time.
Please feel encouraged- for you to be asking these questions He is at work in your repentance, starting to walk you step by step through your development. Just like a baby crawls before walking, we too learn in the correct sequence so that the information is processed correctly.
God's plan does not fail. Man misreads the time schedule.
The pot[ man] cannot tell the potter[God] why it was made. Yet we try. Psychiatrists think they have the answers, yet they can only suggest, point things out- they do not have answers that solve depression, worthlessness.
Fortunately God will not fail. His love is greater than mans'.
As Christ points out, ' What earthly father gives his child a stone instead of a fish?'
Our heavenly Father loves us more than they do.
But just like we have different ages amongst siblings, people will come to know at their own time. We can live with them, but not for them. Just  that many of them will NOT find this out till AFTER they are resurrected.

If we are not a good person and if we do not keep the orders of the god we will go to the lake of fire.

"he does not leave the guilty unpunished"

Jesus said, If we implements his commands, he said that we could be students.

There are great warnings for those who don't hold orders.

I will not write verses about it because it can be found on every page of the book.

I think that things that are called good works are people's small and inadequate acts. Maybe Formalist rules of mosaic law.  Not morality and goodness orders.

Romans 8:38
I loved this verse very much but I saw that this verse did not cover everyone.

I mentioned it because we just do ideas exchange. I do not tell for oppose.

Other Thing,

There is nothing to do with what you say but It's really disgusting to encourage people to evil. Even if it is compensated later.

Even if the god harden people hearts serve a good purpose,  (Who is it good for? Not for me, Not for some suffering people,  Not for people who commit suicide, Not for  people who have been forced to walk away from God..  )  people are not exempted from evil.

God holds people responsible for even things god's own has built.

" you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. "

For example, God delivers israel to the babylon.Because Israel is guilty.

God both punishes Israel and encourages the evil of the Babylonian.

Just because Israel is punished and because it is discipline, it brings sin to babylon sin.

If he did not deliver the Israelites to them, the sin of the babylon would not be multiply. And  he punish them more badly.


There are many stories like this in the book.

The persons are trying to defend by showing the following verse,  James 1:13.

But they can't explain opposite many verses and situations that are the opposite.

I think this verse is just James's thought. Anymore...

I wrote to share my thoughts, not to protest.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 09:20:10 AM
Looking for all the answers at once isn't a bad thing. I know that from personal experience.
When someone wants to read a story in an unknown language many words have to be learned. Knowing words still doesn't help to understand the story.
But when a great amount of words are known then the story can be understood.
When reading the story things may look odd. The meaning of words don't make sense in the context of the story.
Sometimes it turns out the words you assumed you knew, have  a different meaning. And that's verified by the story as a whole. Just because the real meaning of the word fits perfectly in the story.

I love internet, Google and books. And love taking notes!
So when I started my journey I had hundreds of questions 'answered' quite soon.
I studied those answers.
Sometimes it was very simple.
Sometimes there were 10 views. With long hours of study I could narrow that down to maybe 3 views. Then I was stuck.

Usually when I was stuck I kept going and going for a while until I gave up. I admitted to myself that I'm unable to narrow it down to one conclusion.
Was that disappointing? Not really because before I had to admit defeat I learned a lot.

That pattern repeated itself over and over, and still does. I still have stuff I can't figure out.
But the most important part is I learned a lot from both my victories and defeats.

As time progressed my defeats never were real defeats.
As I studied seemingly unrelated things, stuff started to snap into place. I could regularly cut down unsolved stuff from 3 to 2 or even 1 interpretation.
Narrowing it down to just one interpretation is good, but as weird as it seems not the most important part. By connection 'unrelated' things the context is scaled up from a verse to a passage to chapter to what I call the red threads running from Genesis to Revelation. (I don't really read from cover to cover but I try to follow the red threads)


So as a summary: For me it's unthinkable to study without 'wanting to know it all'. Simply because any other way causes a bad foundation. Something that seems great when isolated. But only when taking all questions into account a solid foundation can be build.
Then doctrine starts to prevail over the Bible.  :2c:

That's what works for me. So I can imagine it works for (some) others too...

Yes! I found universalism by lots of questions. But my problem is, something inside me constantly disturbing me. I tried every way to stop it. I first asked for help from God. I still want it. But my situation is worse than my first.


AND, 
I just shared my thoughts.  I did not want to create opposition to no one.

Please do not get me wrong.

I really want to universalism to be real. I want to believe in the goodness of God.

Because that is the only humanitarian thing.

But I can't deal with the verses and with of life.   

Maybe I am very bad person and maybe you are very trust people. For this reason, I wanted you to prayer. James 5:16

I apologize if I confused up your  head.  Thank you for your helpful thoughts.

Again, Thank you for all your help until this time.

" with the measure you use, it will be measured to you "

Blessing.

Quote from: whatistruth on June 17, 2017, 01:46:47 PM

Yes! I found universalism by lots of questions. But my problem is, something inside me constantly disturbing me. I tried every way to stop it. I first asked for help from God. I still want it. But my situation is worse than my first.

I can only guess what that feeling is because I'm not you. But my guess is that it's good.
You a referencing your (almost) new believe to your old belief.
That makes you a serious student.
Just imagine you arrive on this site. You read an article  and 10 minutes later you are fully converted. Or not? I think such conversion only last until the next (totally opposite) article.
Like they say: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
So that bad feeling is just pain from your spiritual workout  :winkgrin:

QuoteAND, 
I just shared my thoughts.  I did not want to create opposition to no one.

Please do not get me wrong.

I really want to universalism to be real. I want to believe in the goodness of God.

That's all it takes. You study. It's problematic. But you try. Nobody, including the Bible claims you have to or will know it all in  a few days.
You know milk and meat.

QuoteBecause that is the only humanitarian thing.

But I can't deal with the verses and with of life.   

Maybe I am very bad person and maybe you are very trust people.

People come in many shades of grey and I'm most certainly not white.
Nobody on this forum is. Only the One we talk about is. Jesus.

QuoteFor this reason, I wanted you to prayer. James 5:16

I apologize if I confused up your  head.  Thank you for your helpful thoughts.

Again, Thank you for all your help until this time.

" with the measure you use, it will be measured to you "

Blessing.

The whole purpose is to help 'confused heads'. So I think nobody is mad at you and there is no need to apologize. Most certainly not to me.
While all firmly believe in UR, no one will take offence in some opposition when the discussion stays civilised (like this one) :friendstu:

He 'punishes' his own should they wander.. but even then, I don't think of it as punishment but merely results and consequences. How else to learn?

He endowed (obviously) thinking ability.. which includes? How else to teach?

What better way is there.. to teach and FULLY convince?

Why a resurrection of all? If some are to be lost? I do not believe in inherent immortality, but in resurrection.. those "in the grave" will hear his voice, some to life and some to judgment/convincing,etc... a 'day' of judgment/correction.. day of atonement finally fulfilled.. :Peace2:

P.S- sacrifice? ...how else to redeem? And what better way to PROVE his LOVE.. faithfulness, loyalty..

Jesus on the cross.. beaten.. bloody, dying.. an image which surely, ultimately can pierce every psyche in every level of psyche.. and included in that is self forgiveness.. for the psyche which demands punishment..

"The chastisement of our sin.. was upon Him"
:HeartThrob:

Quote from: marie glen on June 17, 2017, 04:23:17 PM
P.S- sacrifice? ...how else to redeem? And what better way to PROVE his LOVE.. faithfulness, loyalty..

Jesus on the cross.. beaten.. bloody, dying.. an image which surely, ultimately can pierce every psyche in every level of psyche.. and included in that is self forgiveness.. for the psyche which demands punishment..

"The chastisement of our sin.. was upon Him"
:HeartThrob:

Marieee

Where are you been  :dsunny:

Thank you so much for answers.

I will think of your writings. Nice to see you again.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 03:38:50 PM

Quote from: whatistruth on June 17, 2017, 01:46:47 PM

Yes! I found universalism by lots of questions. But my problem is, something inside me constantly disturbing me. I tried every way to stop it. I first asked for help from God. I still want it. But my situation is worse than my first.

I can only guess what that feeling is because I'm not you. But my guess is that it's good.
You a referencing your (almost) new believe to your old belief.
That makes you a serious student.
Just imagine you arrive on this site. You read an article  and 10 minutes later you are fully converted. Or not? I think such conversion only last until the next (totally opposite) article.
Like they say: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
So that bad feeling is just pain from your spiritual workout  :winkgrin:

QuoteAND, 
I just shared my thoughts.  I did not want to create opposition to no one.

Please do not get me wrong.

I really want to universalism to be real. I want to believe in the goodness of God.

That's all it takes. You study. It's problematic. But you try. Nobody, including the Bible claims you have to or will know it all in  a few days.
You know milk and meat.

QuoteBecause that is the only humanitarian thing.

But I can't deal with the verses and with of life.   

Maybe I am very bad person and maybe you are very trust people.

People come in many shades of grey and I'm most certainly not white.
Nobody on this forum is. Only the One we talk about is. Jesus.

QuoteFor this reason, I wanted you to prayer. James 5:16

I apologize if I confused up your  head.  Thank you for your helpful thoughts.

Again, Thank you for all your help until this time.

" with the measure you use, it will be measured to you "

Blessing.

The whole purpose is to help 'confused heads'. So I think nobody is mad at you and there is no need to apologize. Most certainly not to me.
While all firmly believe in UR, no one will take offence in some opposition when the discussion stays civilised (like this one) :friendstu:

I hope it is like you said.

"You read an article  and 10 minutes later you are fully converted. Or not? I think such conversion only last until the next (totally opposite) article. "

Do you know, You're right about that.  But sometimes I think for days on a single word. Sometimes I don't even eat. Sometimes I just eat stuff that is useless.

I do not know why I told this. I opened my heart too much.I guess I'm so full.

Sometimes a person needs love and understanding. You have it.

1.corinthias 13: If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

I know the only perfect person is Jesus. But many trust people are said in the bible. That's what James verses says.

Even, Job is the perfect person in God's eyes.

And It is said that God did not answer us because of our sins.

Just god knows our hearts. But your prayers always be with me.

I love you. I love you all!

Quote from: whatistruth on June 17, 2017, 04:57:29 PM

I hope it is like you said.

"You read an article  and 10 minutes later you are fully converted. Or not? I think such conversions only last until the next (totally opposite) article. "

Do you know, You're right about that.  But sometimes I think for days on a single word. Sometimes I don't even eat. Sometimes I just eat stuff that is useless.

You are me it seems.
I'm slacking a bit lately but I had days I didn't even eat for 15 hours because I kept staring at my screen.

QuoteI know the only perfect person is Jesus. But many trust people are said in the bible. That's what James verses says.

Even, Job is the perfect person in God's eyes.

And It is said that God did not answer us because of our sins.

But the Bible also says:
Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

1Tim 1:15 So here is a statement you can trust, one that fully deserves to be accepted: the Messiah came into the world to save sinners, and I'm the number one sinner!
-> Hint, it wasn't Satan who said that.


Trivia... What did Jesus say about those who tortured Him to death?
What do you think that means. I mean really means. Not just the meaning of the words. A small hint: It's the purest white.

QuoteJust god knows our hearts.

One more trivia. What do you think that means?

PS my questions aren't to make you look stupid. They are to force you to think. And I think you will find some peace in answering them.

Quote from: marie glen on June 17, 2017, 04:23:17 PM
P.S- sacrifice? ...how else to redeem? And what better way to PROVE his LOVE.. faithfulness, loyalty..

Jesus on the cross.. beaten.. bloody, dying.. an image which surely, ultimately can pierce every psyche in every level of psyche.. and included in that is self forgiveness.. for the psyche which demands punishment..

"The chastisement of our sin.. was upon Him"
:HeartThrob:

.     :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 06:19:23 PM
But the Bible also says:
Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

1Tim 1:15 So here is a statement you can trust, one that fully deserves to be accepted: the Messiah came into the world to save sinners, and I'm the number one sinner!
-> Hint, it wasn't Satan who said that.


Trivia... What did Jesus say about those who tortured Him to death?
What do you think that means. I mean really means. Not just the meaning of the words. A small hint: It's the purest white.

Actually, You comparing man and Jesus. I am comparing man and man.

God donated 3 people with the Job's prayer. He did not kill a person with Abraham's prayer.

Has for many times god donated israel with Moses's prayer.

And, Act 8:24 Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."

And God answered the prayers of many who seemed insignificant.

My examples,

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

1.john 3:7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

2.peter 2:7  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless

1.peter 4:18  And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

1.peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil

hebrews 12:23-24  to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,  to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant..

And again James 5:16  Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

And Much more.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 06:19:23 PM

QuoteJust god knows our hearts.

One more trivia. What do you think that means?

Sometimes, we know people wrong.  Actually, "Just god knows our hearts."  Clear mean.

Even sometimes you show love but you can not back get it.

For example,

- I love you
Respond : not found    :thumbsup:   

But  I have to look at the word of the Jesus,

Luke 6:32-34 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 06:19:23 PM

PS my questions aren't to make you look stupid. They are to force you to think. And I think you will find some peace in answering them.

I'm not ashamed of being stupid.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and clever them to little children.

Quote from: whatistruth on June 17, 2017, 08:55:07 PM
:cloud9:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 06:19:23 PM
But the Bible also says:
Rom 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

1Tim 1:15 So here is a statement you can trust, one that fully deserves to be accepted: the Messiah came into the world to save sinners, and I'm the number one sinner!
-> Hint, it wasn't Satan who said that.


Trivia... What did Jesus say about those who tortured Him to death?
What do you think that means. I mean really means. Not just the meaning of the words. A small hint: It's the purest white.

Actually, You comparing man and Jesus. I am comparing man and man.

My point was if Jesus wants forgiveness for the people who kill Him, the Son of God Himself; would that sort of forgiveness also be given to others. Let say thieves.
My other point is that He forgave without them believing in Him. In fact they were rejecting Him into the extreme.
Sounds a bit like UR, doesn't it?

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 06:19:23 PM

QuoteJust god knows our hearts.

One more trivia. What do you think that means?

Sometimes, we know people wrong.  Actually, "Just god knows our hearts."  Clear mean.[/quote]
To me it means this.
Sometimes, well often, people fail, the misunderstand, they try to help but somehow it backfires (and it gets even worse) etc.
Does Father look at result of the action OR does the Father look at the intention of the action.
The reason I asked that was because of our little chat concerning studies.
Sometimes you get stuck. Sometimes you in all honest reach wrong conclusions and believe something not being true.
Will Father slap you in the face for being wrong, or will He give you a pad on your shoulder for giving your best try?

I do not say universalism never exist. Even before I knew the universalism, I thought,

' If God wants us to love our enemies, Why is he sending so many people hell?
If love means action for him, The only action you do is to stretch the cross?

If so, the love is incomplete because everyone does not know the cross or dont believe for certain reasons.

If, If,If...

People need help from many directions. The most important of which is to get rid of eternal suffering. (when I believe in eternal punishment)

Then I thought, there are a lot of things in the book that seem unfair. There is a lot of unjust loss and punishment.

I said to myself, I can not fully understand the god. Maybe, what is absurd to me is logical and necessary for God. 
And than, I thought ( Rather, under the influence of my former belief, )

When I looked into the world, If god  allowed so much pain in this world, it can continue after it has been death.

But the idea of ​​endless punishment continued to bother me. And there were a lot of missing pieces. There were a lot of injustices in the middle.

When I found the universalism, some parts were completed.

And than,  I thought, There are a lot of things in the bible that bothers me, but God made thats.  I should not trust my own mind. But I was still restless.

And I'm still looking for the truth.  I really try to understand.  I want to believe, but many verses are blocking me.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 09:46:50 PM

Sometimes, well often, people fail, the misunderstand, they try to help but somehow it backfires (and it gets even worse) etc.
Does Father look at result of the action OR does the Father look at the intention of the action.

There are many people whose intentions are not good. Maybe I am one of them too. Maybe god will not save people who will not be as good as the heart.  ( I continue to investigate this )

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 09:46:50 PM

The reason I asked that was because of our little chat concerning studies.

If you did not love me, you would not try to help me. Thank you.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 09:46:50 PM
Sometimes you get stuck. Sometimes you in all honest reach wrong conclusions and believe something not being true.
Will Father slap you in the face for being wrong, or will He give you a pad on your shoulder for giving your best try?

I really do not know what your god will do. 
My only wish from god,  give me back my health and the relationship with him.


Thank you for everything.

I will say this much whatistruth, in months or even years we will all look back on this thread and see how much you have grown.

Blessings brother

Quote from: whatistruth on June 17, 2017, 11:04:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2017, 09:46:50 PM
Sometimes you get stuck. Sometimes you in all honest reach wrong conclusions and believe something not being true.
Will Father slap you in the face for being wrong, or will He give you a pad on your shoulder for giving your best try?

I really do not know what your god will do. 

I think a bit of both. And that's what confuses people.
God will be happy and forgiving because you tried.
But He will also correct you because He also want to remove all errors.
That's why for example in Psalm we see the big boots of God in one verse and the hugging God in the next.
In the NT we see writings of the Apostles of which all agree they go to heaven. But those apostles themselves time after time wrote God is correcting them big time.

It's the balance. I repeat the balance.

God does not punish without an end.
God does not let sins/misunderstandings/etc go uncorrected without an end.

But many somehow don't see that. God punishes severely and endlessly. -> Classic hell
God basically does nothing at all because Jesus took care of it all -> View of a many, not all, Universalists

My view is that all Scripture has to be taken into account.
God does punish, God gets angry, God does correct. And none of it is fun. *
But it's never without end because Luke 12:48 puts a limit on punishment.
When all that's done, God is all love and eternal bliss.

*=And that was why I before suggested to you (???) to read all of this site  -click- (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html)  because it shows all apostles are under heavy correction. It uses terms like fire. Fire is very often understood like hell. If you read that page carefully you will see that all those punishments lead to the desired purity which leads to heaven. I'm more than a bit biased about that page because I wrote it myself, but it's my believe when you really grasp what's written there you understand the core of Universal Salvation. And you don't even have to agree with every fine detail.

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
I will say this much whatistruth, in months or even years we will all look back on this thread and see how much you have grown.

Blessings brother

Amen brother !  :friendstu:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 18, 2017, 08:29:28 AM
I think a bit of both. And that's what confuses people.
God will be happy and forgiving because you tried.
But He will also correct you because He also want to remove all errors.
That's why for example in Psalm we see the big boots of God in one verse and the hugging God in the next.
In the NT we see writings of the Apostles of which all agree they go to heaven. But those apostles themselves time after time wrote God is correcting them big time.

It's the balance. I repeat the balance.

God does not punish without an end.
God does not let sins/misunderstandings/etc go uncorrected without an end.

But many somehow don't see that. God punishes severely and endlessly. -> Classic hell
God basically does nothing at all because Jesus took care of it all -> View of a many, not all, Universalists

My view is that all Scripture has to be taken into account.
God does punish, God gets angry, God does correct. And none of it is fun. *
But it's never without end because Luke 12:48 puts a limit on punishment.
When all that's done, God is all love and eternal bliss.

I will think of what you say. Thank you so much.  I must also mention,

The problem is,  I am so far away from God at this stage. I am sinning against him.

Because I've suffered a lot and I've seen bad things about him. If this is a correction, God should give me a relationship with him. As long as I'm away from him, this life has no meaning. This correction does not make sense. A human can not mature without a god.

P.S   Why does he allow it? How does it allow me to get away from him? What if I can not go back? I know the story of a son who is returning, but,  I have a problem with the god's himself and god character. For this reason, I can not go back like that disappear son.

Also, God did not do anything special to turn him back. The son himself returned.

And, I know a man who served years to Jesus. One day he got away from him. Never he came back again. God allowed it. There are many people in this situation. Some are dead. 

Sometimes I'm afraid, he will not turn me back.   Lord please, First, give oneself to me!

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 18, 2017, 08:29:28 AM
to read all of this site  -click- (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html)

I guess this website is entirely yours. There are useful things.

You're very interested in me. I really appreciate you for that.  :URWelcome:

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 18, 2017, 08:29:28 AM

:banana:                                                                 :banana:                                                                :banana:

A confession,

When I see these gift on this website, I am smiling. And A strange sadness and happiness falls to my inside. And from my heart I say, " My dear ones! My dear dear brothers and sisters! I hope, god always make you happy. "

Quote from: whatistruth on June 18, 2017, 10:08:10 AM

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
The problem is,  I am so far away from God at this stage. I am sinning against him.

He knows. He will act on it.
But do you think you took Him by surprise?
Do you think Jesus forgiveness reached those who tortured Him to death, but you are out of reach of His forgiveness?

QuoteP.S   Why does he allow it? How does it allow me to get away from him?

I have have no real answer for that besides:
Rom 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

QuoteWhat if I can not go back?
I know the story of a son who is returning, but,  I have a problem with the god's himself and god character. For this reason, I can not go back like that disappear son.

But do you have a choice? The Good Shepherd just goes and gets His sheep. He just grabs the sheep and takes it home. He doesn't start a philosophical discussion. He just does.

QuoteAlso, God did not do anything special to turn him back. The son himself returned.

The son returned because his lifestyle devastated him. The son was forced.

QuoteAnd, I know a man who served years to Jesus. One day he got away from him. Never he came back again. God allowed it. There are many people in this situation. Some are dead.

They are more alive than ever. They are part of His flock now.
God is God of the living, not of the dead. His powers reach far beyond death. Jesus conquered death.

QuoteWhen I see these gift on this website, I am smiling. And A strange sadness and happiness falls to my inside. And from my heart I say, " My dear ones! My dear dear brothers and sisters! I hope, god always make you happy.

Sadness?

Thank you for your thoughts. The meaning everyone sees in one verse can be different. Thank you for answers.

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM

QuoteWhen I see these gift on this website, I am smiling. And A strange sadness and happiness falls to my inside. And from my heart I say, " My dear ones! My dear dear brothers and sisters! I hope, god always make you happy.

Sadness?

In a whole sentence, did you just hang out to this word? Anyway, I do not have enough to tell you what I feel.

I was going to write a long answer with verses.  But I decided it was not necessary.

Everybody interprets what believes. Everyone accepts that already.

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
God is God of the living, not of the dead. His powers reach far beyond death. Jesus conquered death.

I think something else is happening here.

There are dead people and living people.  Jesus also talked about people who seemed to be dead when they breathed many times.

God is not the god of everybody if we follow this logic.

There are many death and life types in the bible.

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
But do you have a choice? The Good Shepherd just goes and gets His sheep. He just grabs the sheep and takes it home. He doesn't start a philosophical discussion. He just does.

Not everyone is a sheep. John 10:26  matthew 25:33 and much more verses.

Last Things,

You respect the views of non-universalist people.

I'm not against you. But In my mind I must say the verses which I can not reconcile. Otherwise it is not possible to exchange information.

Some people's objections are not a blind objection. Because of the existence of many opposite verses and situations.

I guess, I will not ask questions for a long time.

Quote from: whatistruth on June 19, 2017, 12:51:25 PM

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
God is God of the living, not of the dead. His powers reach far beyond death. Jesus conquered death.

I think something else is happening here.

There are dead people and living people.  Jesus also talked about people who seemed to be dead when they breathed many times.

God is not the god of everybody if we follow this logic.

There are many death and life types in the bible.

Quote from: jugghead on June 18, 2017, 03:55:28 AM
But do you have a choice? The Good Shepherd just goes and gets His sheep. He just grabs the sheep and takes it home. He doesn't start a philosophical discussion. He just does.

Not everyone is a sheep. John 10:26  Matthew 25:33 and much more verses.

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

About mat 25:33, the goat translations possibly is flawed because it can also be read as 'young sheep'

There the are again. Links, links and more links.  :Pray:
Reading is the only way to learn....

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew_25_46_5.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=sheep_and_goats.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew%2025_31-46_3.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew%2025_46_2.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew%2025_46.htm

Olam --> http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/BitsAndPieces/hebraic_meaning.html

QuoteBut In my mind I must say the verses which I can not reconcile. Otherwise it is not possible to exchange information.

And that's what we are doing. Or not?

QuoteSome people's objections are not a blind objection. Because of the existence of many opposite verses and situations.

I never said you have blind objections. There are no opposite verses because that would mean the Bible contradicts itself. But there is flawed understanding of verses that makes them seem to contradict.
I gave a lot to read. Perhaps you can pick out just one problematic point and discus that?

And understanding is what all are seeking here. Those with 1 post and those with 1 billion posts.

See you soon the next post.



I guess, I will not ask questions for a long time.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2017, 02:21:39 PM

Quote from: whatistruth on June 19, 2017, 12:51:25 PM

Not everyone is a sheep. John 10:26  Matthew 25:33 and much more verses.

John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

About mat 25:33, the goat translations possibly is flawed because it can also be read as 'young sheep'

There the are again. Links, links and more links.  :Pray:
Reading is the only way to learn....

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew_25_46_5.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=sheep_and_goats.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew%2025_31-46_3.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew%2025_46_2.htm

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/matthew%2025_46.htm

Olam --> http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/BitsAndPieces/hebraic_meaning.html

Gentiles.
He says again, sheep.  (Also, I had read these verses too.I need to read opposite verses too for understand thoroughly.)

The problem not here, 'He calls them goats',  Even, He can call them as something else.

And there are many verses that are incompatible with 'everyone'. As I said, I did not write. Because this sheep issue is really obstructive.At least for me.

Thanks for the links.I am definitely reading.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2017, 02:21:39 PMAnd that's what we are doing. Or not?

I did not say it for you.  [You (I mean, everyone.)]
I speak in general.   I even thank you all the time. Again, Thank you everyone for everything here.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2017, 02:21:39 PM
I never said you have blind objections. There are no opposite verses because that would mean the Bible contradicts itself. But there is flawed understanding of verses that makes them seem to contradict.

Again, I shared my general opinion.

Quote from: WhiteWings on June 19, 2017, 02:21:39 PM

See you soon the next post.

I hope so.