Romans 10:9

[deeplyloved]

A Christian Universalist's view of Romans 10:9?...I know there are already lots of threads on this...perhaps someone could refer me to a thread to get me started.

Also, maybe I'm just in the slow group but, could someone suggest pointers on site navigation? Thanks!

[Ross]

Hi;
Never really used to grasp something about this verse until recently;
I.M.O the verse is stating that we need to recognise that Jesus ACTUALLY died for us.
If He is immortal, then there is no death. Same applies to us being mortal not immortal as the Greeks imply.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge the serpent had told them they would not die. Even though it took 900 years they did die.
Jesus gave bread and said,' This is my body....."
The resurrection would not be pliable if Jesus did not die and be "First" to be resurrected.
Teachings in the day of the disciples promised being raised, just none had any idea when or how it really worked.
Jesus had to explain this "after" his resurrection, before He returned to the heavens.
When Jesus died on the cross John 19;34 points out how He was pierced and water and blood flowed from Him; to show He died in Spirit and flesh to cover ALL bases for us.
The deceiver tries to cover that up with half truths and false doctrines.

So Romans 10;9 seems to be the statement of needing to actually comprehend what the significance of Christ's death and resurrection ACTUALLY mean. That belief frees us from failure and makes us grasp the depth of His love.

[CST]

I'd say that's an unreasonable interpretation of Greek thinking, from what I can tell Greek thinking was highly Cynical (modern meaning) it's outlook was bleak it was highly misogynistic and rather misanthropic despite all progressive kudos it supposedly gets these days.

The New Testament of the Bible is written in Greek, the majority of the Gospels and epistles were written for Greeks. When Paul declares himself apostles to the gentiles he seems primarily to mean Greeks and Romans because that is the majority of the local populace.

The text of the Bible seems scarcely to challenge the Greek position on the afterlife given the number of times it uses the word Hades. But it is quite clear that Greeks did believe that the vast majority of people were destined for Hades which was a bleak and miserable place although some traditions seemed to put the Elysian fields in the heart of it, a tradition that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus seems, at least partially, to invoke.

What the text of the New Testament does challenge, and this is very important to UR, is the idea that there is no escape from Hades as the Bible quite clearly teaches that God will rescue all from Hades at the end of the age in order to face the great judgement (I do not call it last, the term is not found in the Bible and I suspect it's an incorrect concept) even if, as Perditionists believe, it's to immediately be condemned to an even worse but more justified state for their wickedness.

That said according the Wikipedia article on the Greek underworld begins by stating that, "The original Greek idea of afterlife is that, at the moment of death, the soul is separated from the corpse, taking on the shape of the former person, and is transported to the entrance of the Underworld." I'm fairly sure that Paul challenges this idea, how he speaks of perishable bodies and imperishable bodies suggests that the soul has no such physical shape.

Nevertheless which it's probably an interesting point for discussion (although perhaps not in this thread) it's probably worth knowing what the Greeks did and did not think about the condition of the dead before we discuss how much the Bible may ore may not actually challenge these ideas (which I suspect there was as much dispute between themselves about).

[rosered]

A Christian Universalist's view of Romans 10:9...I know there are already lots of threads on this...perhaps someone could refer me to a thread to get me started.

Also, maybe I'm just in the slow group but, could someone suggest pointers on site navigation? Thanks!

  Romans 10  8 But what does it say? The Word (God's message in Christ) is near you, on your lips and in your heart; that is, the Word (the message, the basis and object) of faith which we preach,

9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

11 The Scripture says, No man who believes in Him [who adheres to, relies on, and trusts in Him] will [ever] be put to shame or be disappointed.

12 [No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith].

13 For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.

I believe our faith is born from above .
  Because Jesus even says , When I return will I find faith on the earth ? ...  faith comes by hearing  GOD , if we do not hear God  speaking though the Word [gospel ]  we   are not healed  yet ...  Because to be healed we have  to be given eyes to see God and ears to hear is Voice and Live   and mostly a new heart to understand His Truth .  Jesus never spoke anything  on his own ,but everything was God speaking though Him  and also doing the works , JESUS CHRIST  is basically   a vessel of Honor to the Father  in every way  and pattern  of obedience to Gods will  perfectly we are  to learn from Him and  be  just like Him in the world [John 12 ] and desire more and more of Him .[  Gospel  all good news and eschewing ,deliberately avoid using; abstain from all  forms  of evil .

We know from the scriptures  without faith it is impossible to please God , so there you have it  simply put .
  When one  does not believe in Gods justice  , but seeks their own justice  , we also have the scriptures  , the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God ,, Jesus come to teach us to depend on God  and not ourselves  or others  BUT GOD HIMSELF .
  But this is what becomes a failure to please God   LACK of  faith causing  disobedience,...to me faith is abiding in obedience  and faithfulness to God ...
  FAITH IN GOD is the first  work  with substance,  being   the  seed/Word  of hope of glory  to God and  Love being the  complete  and finished  fruits  of   harvest .
example     here
Luke 18 The Persistent Widow
...7Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night?

Will He continue to defer their help?

8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?"

9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, [the offense of being disobedient to or disrespectful of a court of law ] , He also told this parable:...

    The example  in the  above   scripture  is they  trusted in their own righteousness   not faith in God  and  the other is contempt   , which is the wrath of mankind   that   force  that comes with violence    and lawlessness

For me  :2c:  it is the wrong spirit  in operation , remember  James and John , called  the sons of thunder   whom desired to bring down fire from heaven    and destroy the town that rejected Jesus  preaching and teaching to them ?

   Jesus told them they did not know what manner of spirit they were of ...
  It was opposing the  correct way Jesus was trying to  save them  with   a way of peace they had not ever known before .

  The way of violence  was how  they come  into Gods kingdom  all of them ,   up till John the Baptist and he was considered the least in the Kingdom of God .
JESUS  come to show us the new and living way ,  not by the way of death and violence any longer , but to have faith and  depend on God to LIVE , Vengeance is mine says the Lord and I will repay   ..


The way of the cross of Jesus Christ is ,   Forgive them Father they do NOT know what they are doing .
  In ignorance   and unlearned   and faithlessness     in God    was the way   they had all come to the Father  before the Lord 
none of their self righteousness  could save them , none of their contempt   could either 
But this widows faith  proved to be  tested and approved of God   as righteousness   by  delivering her  HIS HELP  from the evil  done that was upon her  .

I too must learn to depend on Gods help   and ask Him to deliver me from evil .
Are not we all  wanting to be delivered from evil ? and the evil to come by ways  of  the lawlessness in the world right now ?


  Salvation is of God in the now  and  eternal Life to come  according to the scriptures .  if we  have faith in God and obedience to His  law , Love   God first and foremost as  totally dependant on HIM  for every good work   and  treat  everyone as  you would yourself  like to be treated    and that is with good intentions  and no harm   we will be saved  by becoming a vessel of God honor   , Like Jesus is  , sons of God    born again by faith in God [ John 3 ]   by the HOLY SPIRIT  witness  ,  as in the court of law  by judging what is right in the sight of God   and not in the sight of men ..

What is considered  right in the sight of men is an abomination  in the sight of God

  Luke 16 The Law and the Prophets
14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all of this and were scoffing at Jesus.

15So He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts.


For what is prized among men is detestable before God.

16The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it....

     Create in me a CLEAN HEART OH GOD   Psalms 51


Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God


...9Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.


11Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me....


Please do not spew me out of your mouth Jesus . because of my lukewarm  attitude   and indifference   , make me  hot or cold , I cannot   do  any of   this   without you  and your help ....

[eaglesway]

A Christian Universalist's view of Romans 10:9?...I know there are already lots of threads on this...perhaps someone could refer me to a thread to get me started.

Also, maybe I'm just in the slow group but, could someone suggest pointers on site navigation? Thanks!

Phil 2 says "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 5:13 says " Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

Rev 21:5 says, "He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

John 12:32 says "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 says  "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.  The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Eph 1:9-11 says,  In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him  with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

From these verses any many more a picture emerges :o) Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Every soul will believe God has raised Him from the dead. Every enemy will be gathered into one in Christ. Eventually, some in this age, some in the next.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Under His feet means subjected and gathered into the oneness of the "all in all".

Col. 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

[deeplyloved]

Thanks much for putting into perspective Eaglesway!

In the Netflix special release movie "Come Sunday", which I strongly recommend, Carlton Pearson was challenged by one of the "generals" of the faith with Romans 10:9, after he announced to his congregation that he was given a revelation that the glorious Gospel is an all inclusive one.

Thanks, again, for addressing it so fully in this forum!

[rosered]

 Eaglesway!   :thumbsup: :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:

God bless everyone everywhere  !! 
   

[Dandelion]

Romans 10:9 New International Version (NIV)

9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

The above Bible verse does not say when this will occur.

Phil 2 says "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.  (Taken from eaglesway's post.)

I don't see any contradiction. I rest my case.    :curtsey:

D.

[marie glen]

Amen, Dandelion.. I think the same way about the verse in Psalm 22 that says
27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's,
And He rules over the nations.

For I can't help but think, when? When will all the ends of the world remember and turn to the Lord? As it is for sure, or at least highly unlikely, to occur on this side of life! (imo :gsmile: )

[deeplyloved]

Thanks D and Marie for your inspired insight!