A Christian Universalist's view of Romans 10:9?...I know there are already lots of threads on this...perhaps someone could refer me to a thread to get me started.
Also, maybe I'm just in the slow group but, could someone suggest pointers on site navigation? Thanks!
Hi;
Never really used to grasp something about this verse until recently;
I.M.O the verse is stating that we need to recognise that Jesus ACTUALLY died for us.
If He is immortal, then there is no death. Same applies to us being mortal not immortal as the Greeks imply.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge the serpent had told them they would not die. Even though it took 900 years they did die.
Jesus gave bread and said,' This is my body....."
The resurrection would not be pliable if Jesus did not die and be "First" to be resurrected.
Teachings in the day of the disciples promised being raised, just none had any idea when or how it really worked.
Jesus had to explain this "after" his resurrection, before He returned to the heavens.
When Jesus died on the cross John 19;34 points out how He was pierced and water and blood flowed from Him; to show He died in Spirit and flesh to cover ALL bases for us.
The deceiver tries to cover that up with half truths and false doctrines.
So Romans 10;9 seems to be the statement of needing to actually comprehend what the significance of Christ's death and resurrection ACTUALLY mean. That belief frees us from failure and makes us grasp the depth of His love.
I'd say that's an unreasonable interpretation of Greek thinking, from what I can tell Greek thinking was highly Cynical (modern meaning) it's outlook was bleak it was highly misogynistic and rather misanthropic despite all progressive kudos it supposedly gets these days.
The New Testament of the Bible is written in Greek, the majority of the Gospels and epistles were written for Greeks. When Paul declares himself apostles to the gentiles he seems primarily to mean Greeks and Romans because that is the majority of the local populace.
The text of the Bible seems scarcely to challenge the Greek position on the afterlife given the number of times it uses the word Hades. But it is quite clear that Greeks did believe that the vast majority of people were destined for Hades which was a bleak and miserable place although some traditions seemed to put the Elysian fields in the heart of it, a tradition that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus seems, at least partially, to invoke.
What the text of the New Testament does challenge, and this is very important to UR, is the idea that there is no escape from Hades as the Bible quite clearly teaches that God will rescue all from Hades at the end of the age in order to face the great judgement (I do not call it last, the term is not found in the Bible and I suspect it's an incorrect concept) even if, as Perditionists believe, it's to immediately be condemned to an even worse but more justified state for their wickedness.
That said according the Wikipedia article on the Greek underworld begins by stating that, "The original Greek idea of afterlife is that, at the moment of death, the soul is separated from the corpse, taking on the shape of the former person, and is transported to the entrance of the Underworld." I'm fairly sure that Paul challenges this idea, how he speaks of perishable bodies and imperishable bodies suggests that the soul has no such physical shape.
Nevertheless which it's probably an interesting point for discussion (although perhaps not in this thread) it's probably worth knowing what the Greeks did and did not think about the condition of the dead before we discuss how much the Bible may ore may not actually challenge these ideas (which I suspect there was as much dispute between themselves about).
Quote from: deeplyloved on April 17, 2018, 05:00:05 AM
A Christian Universalist's view of Romans 10:9...I know there are already lots of threads on this...perhaps someone could refer me to a thread to get me started.
Also, maybe I'm just in the slow group but, could someone suggest pointers on site navigation? Thanks!
Romans 10 8 But what does it say? The Word (God's message in Christ)
is near you, on your lips and in your heart; that is,
the Word (the message, the basis and object)
of faith which we preach,9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that
God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.
11 The Scripture says, No man who believes in Him [who adheres to, relies on, and trusts in Him] will [ever] be put to shame or be disappointed.
12 [No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously
bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith].
13 For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord]
will be saved. I believe our faith is born from above .
Because Jesus even says , When I return will I find faith on the earth ? ... faith comes by hearing GOD , if we do not hear God speaking though the Word [gospel ] we are not healed yet ... Because to be healed we have to be given eyes to see God and ears to hear is Voice and Live and mostly a new heart to understand His Truth . Jesus never spoke anything on his own ,but everything was God speaking though Him and also doing the works , JESUS CHRIST is basically a vessel of Honor to the Father in every way and pattern of obedience to Gods will perfectly we are to learn from Him and be just like Him in the world [John 12 ] and desire more and more of Him .[ Gospel all good news and eschewing ,deliberately avoid using; abstain from all forms of evil .
We know from the scriptures without faith it is impossible to please God , so there you have it simply put .
When one does not believe in Gods justice , but seeks their own justice , we also have the scriptures , the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God ,, Jesus come to teach us to depend on God and not ourselves or others BUT GOD HIMSELF .
But this is what becomes a failure to please God LACK of faith causing disobedience,...to me faith is abiding in obedience and faithfulness to God ...
FAITH IN GOD is the first work with substance, being the seed/Word of hope of glory to God and Love being the complete and finished fruits of harvest .
example here
Luke 18 The Persistent Widow
...7Will not God bring about justice for
His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help?
8I tell you,
He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless,
when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?"
9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, [the offense of being disobedient to or disrespectful of a court of law ] , He also told this parable:...
The example in the above scripture is they trusted in their own righteousness not faith in God and the other is contempt , which is the wrath of mankind that force that comes with violence and lawlessness
For me :2c: it is the wrong spirit in operation , remember James and John , called the sons of thunder whom desired to bring down fire from heaven and destroy the town that rejected Jesus preaching and teaching to them ?
Jesus told them they did not know what manner of spirit they were of ...
It was opposing the correct way Jesus was trying to save them with a way of peace they had not ever known before .
The way of violence was how they come into Gods kingdom all of them , up till John the Baptist and he was considered the least in the Kingdom of God .
JESUS come to show us the new and living way , not by the way of death and violence any longer , but to have faith and depend on God to LIVE , Vengeance is mine says the Lord and I will repay ..
The way of the cross of Jesus Christ is , Forgive them Father they do NOT know what they are doing .
In ignorance and unlearned and faithlessness in God was the way they had all come to the Father before the Lord
none of their self righteousness could save them , none of their contempt could either
But this widows faith proved to be tested and approved of God as righteousness by delivering her HIS HELP from the evil done that was upon her .
I too must learn to depend on Gods help and ask Him to deliver me from evil .
Are not we all wanting to be delivered from evil ? and the evil to come by ways of the lawlessness in the world right now ?
Salvation is of God in the now and eternal Life to come according to the scriptures . if we have faith in God and obedience to His law , Love God first and foremost as totally dependant on HIM for every good work and treat everyone as you would yourself like to be treated and that is with good intentions and no harm we will be saved by becoming a vessel of God honor , Like Jesus is , sons of God born again by faith in God [ John 3 ] by the HOLY SPIRIT witness , as in the court of law by judging what is right in the sight of God and not in the sight of men ..
What is considered right in the sight of men is an abomination in the sight of God
Luke 16 The Law and the Prophets
14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all of this and were scoffing at Jesus.
15So He said to them, "
You are the ones who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is prized among men is detestable before God. 16The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the gospel of the kingdom of God is being preached, and
everyone is forcing his way into it....
Create in me a CLEAN HEART OH GOD Psalms 51
Create in Me a Clean Heart, O God
...9Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11
Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me....
Please do not spew me out of your mouth Jesus . because of my lukewarm attitude and indifference , make me hot or cold , I cannot do any of this without you and your help ....
Quote from: deeplyloved on April 17, 2018, 05:00:05 AM
A Christian Universalist's view of Romans 10:9?...I know there are already lots of threads on this...perhaps someone could refer me to a thread to get me started.
Also, maybe I'm just in the slow group but, could someone suggest pointers on site navigation? Thanks!
Phil 2 says "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 5:13 says " Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
Rev 21:5 says, "He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
John 12:32 says "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 says "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.Eph 1:9-11 says, In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to
His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.From these verses any many more a picture emerges :o) Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Every soul will believe God has raised Him from the dead. Every enemy will be gathered into one in Christ. Eventually, some in this age, some in the next.
For as in Adam all die,
so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.Under His feet means subjected and gathered into the oneness of the "all in all".
Col. 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and
through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Thanks much for putting into perspective Eaglesway!
In the Netflix special release movie "Come Sunday", which I strongly recommend, Carlton Pearson was challenged by one of the "generals" of the faith with Romans 10:9, after he announced to his congregation that he was given a revelation that the glorious Gospel is an all inclusive one.
Thanks, again, for addressing it so fully in this forum!
Eaglesway! :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
God bless everyone everywhere !!
Romans 10:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
The above Bible verse does not say when this will occur.
Phil 2 says "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Taken from eaglesway's post.)
I don't see any contradiction. I rest my case. :curtsey:
D.
Amen, Dandelion.. I think the same way about the verse in Psalm 22 that says
27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's,
And He rules over the nations.
For I can't help but think, when? When will all the ends of the world remember and turn to the Lord? As it is for sure, or at least highly unlikely, to occur on this side of life! (imo :gsmile: )
Thanks D and Marie for your inspired insight!